Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:44 AM - Wigwag Indicator (FlashandCo@aol.com)
2. 04:53 AM - Re: EFIS "D" 10 software (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 04:58 AM - Re: Routing wires (Mark Banus)
4. 05:04 AM - Re: EFIS (Mark Banus)
5. 05:25 AM - Re: Unstable charging system . . . (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 05:35 AM - Re: Avionics Master Switches (Dennis O'Connor)
7. 05:37 AM - Re: Avionics Master Switches (Cy Galley)
8. 05:42 AM - Re: Avionics Master Switches (Dennis O'Connor)
9. 05:46 AM - Re: Avionics Master Switches (Dennis O'Connor)
10. 05:48 AM - Re: Avionics Master Switches (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
11. 06:01 AM - Re: B&C Installation Details (Dennis O'Connor)
12. 06:46 AM - Re: B&C Installation Details (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
13. 07:08 AM - avionics masters (Gary Casey)
14. 07:25 AM - Re: Fusible links and elec ignition (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
15. 07:40 AM - dimmer circuit (Dj Merrill)
16. 07:54 AM - Re: dimmer circuit (Larry Bowen)
17. 08:27 AM - Re: B&C Installation Details (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
18. 08:30 AM - Re: dimmer circuit (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
19. 08:41 AM - ELT ground plane (John Slade)
20. 09:16 AM - Re: ELT ground plane (Matt Prather)
21. 09:29 AM - Re: ELT ground plane ()
22. 09:44 AM - Radio switching (Gianni Zuliani)
23. 09:51 AM - Re: dimmer circuit (mailbox bob at mail.flyboybob.com)
24. 10:19 AM - Re: B&C Installation Details (Dennis O'Connor)
25. 10:24 AM - OBAM vs. Certified thread (drew.schumann@us.army.mil)
26. 10:56 AM - Re: B&C Installation Details (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
27. 11:06 AM - Re: dimmer circuit (Dj Merrill)
28. 11:12 AM - "Start Me Up" (Eric M. Jones)
29. 11:14 AM - Re: dimmer circuit (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
30. 11:26 AM - Re: Routing wires - test results. (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
31. 12:03 PM - your note of August 9 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
32. 12:39 PM - Re: EFIS "D" 10 software (N823ms@aol.com)
33. 12:52 PM - Re: dimmer circuit (mailbox bob at mail.flyboybob.com)
34. 02:15 PM - Re: EFIS "D" 10 software (Robinson, Chad)
35. 02:33 PM - Re: EFIS (Charlie & Tupper England)
36. 06:41 PM - Re: Avionics Master Switches (Tom Brusehaver)
37. 07:56 PM - Re: Unstable charging system . . . (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
38. 09:08 PM - Re: dimmer circuit (Chris Good)
39. 09:33 PM - Re: dimmer circuit (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
40. 10:06 PM - Re: OBAM vs. Certified thread (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
41. 10:20 PM - Re: OBAM vs. Certified thread (Aucountry@aol.com)
42. 11:00 PM - Switching On with Lightspeed (Greg Grigson)
43. 11:00 PM - Re: OBAM vs. Certified thread (Gerry Holland)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Wigwag Indicator |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FlashandCo@aol.com
Bob and all,
I read the following scheme for a "contactor on" indicator and was wondering if
it would work for a B&C-type wigwag "on" indicator:
>>Bob said - If you want to use an LED, you'll need to
put a resistor in series with it. Mount this
resistor AT THE CONTACTOR end of the wire. This
impedance jump at the source end will protect the
wire. Also, put a diode in parallel with the
LED with banded end (cathode) of diode tied
to plus side (anode) of LED. LED's are relatively
robust for forward transient currents but rather
fragile for reverse transients. The diode (1N4005
or similar) combined with your 330 ohm resistor
at the feed-end of the wire will protect the
LED.<<
My plans are to use the Aerolectric/B&C wigwag schematic, but plan to use a DPDT
relay in place of the S700-2-3 dedicated wigwag switch. I will trigger this
relay with one of my Infinity grip switches (#5 blue for those who have the grip).
Since the grip switch is a push-on/push-off, I would like an indicator
light on the panel, probably just above the taxi and landing light switches to
tell me status. Would this LED setup work? Also, I wrote B&C about such a
relay but they don't stock this animal. Good Digikey P/N?
Last but not least, thanks for the many fine tips that clear the muddy waters.
Bob Gordon RV6 Wiring
Dover DE
Message 2
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| Subject: | EFIS "D" 10 software |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 11:06 PM 8/27/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robinson, Chad"
><crobinson@rfgonline.com>
>
>This is a pre-made search that looks for FTDI in both titles and descriptions:
>
>http://search-desc.ebay.com/ws/search/SaleSearch?satitle=ftdi&ht=1&sosortproperty=1&from=R10&sotextsearched=2&BasicSearch
>If you prefer a vendor approach, this is somewhat more expensive but
>appears to be the right item:
>
>http://www.usbwholesale.com/us232%201port.htm
>
>You may have some luck with Google searching for these.
I just bought a USB/232 serial adapter at Best Buy
to connect a palmtop to a laptop. Gave $29 for it.
Bob . . .
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Routing wires |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark Banus" <mbanus@hotmail.com>
Sign me up for a handful!
Message 4
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark Banus" <mbanus@hotmail.com>
Try closing all programs running and close all icons in your tray.
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Unstable charging system . . . |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>At 11:58 PM 8/27/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>I felt pretty certain that if you recommended hooking the regulator right
>to the back of the alternator, and then followed the appropriate
>connection you knew things would settle down nicely. Well, they did just
>that! The ammeter was rock steady to the charging side, and the voltage
>read a solid 14.4
>Now the follow up to get these same results once the voltage regulator is
>reinstalled, and not hanging off the alternator. The other thing I noted
>was that when hooked up in this manner the alternator side of the split
>master was not working, but I'm sure you knew that would happen.
>
>Let me know what's next, and thanks!
Okay, this experiment was important to tell
us that the components were okay and that you
didn't have a flaky regulator or bouncing brushes
in the alternator.
I'd start at the bus (did I ask whether you're
using fuseblocks or breakers?) and check to see
that you have good terminals, at least 20AWG wire
all the way to the regulator's "A/S" terminals.
If the regulator is mounted on the firewall,
grounding isn't an issue for the regulator . . .
and seldom does grounding affect stability . . .
only voltage setting.
Also, you mentioned that the "alternator side
of the split master was not working" . . . I'd
bet that MOST of your circuit resistance is
happening in that switch. I have a plastic
bag full of perfectly good looking split-rocker
switches that were sent to me after putting
in a new one cured a bouncy ammeter complaint.
This has occurred in countless certified ships
and a few OBAM aircraft. This doesn't mean that
the split-rocker is necessarily a "bad" product
(it's made by Carling and uses the same guts
as the S700 series toggle switches B&C sells).
Regulators are sensitive to small amounts of
resistance in the lines between bus and regulator.
I had one builder who mounted his regulator within
a few inches of the bus, tied the A/S terminals
directly to the breaker with short, single,
solid wire and put his alternator control switch
in series with the field wire. He added crowbar
ov protection to the breaker and ended up with
a combination that would probably be stable over
the lifetime of the airplane.
In older production Cessnas, I think I counted
20 some odd crimps, connections and spring-pressure
maintained metal-metal contacts between bus and
regulator. As all of these joints age, they add
resistance to the circuit. At some point in time,
the system becomes unstable with symptoms you
have observed.
Thousands of spam-can owners have paid out $millions$
to ignorant mechanics who replaced EVERYTHING BUT
aged/compromised wiring before finally renewing the
bus-to-regulator components. In many cases, owners
have reported that replacing only the spilt-rocker
"fixed" the problem. Indeed this single component
can be a major contributor of total loop resistance.
But consider that if NEW loop resistance was on
the order of 50 milliohms and had climbed to
100 milliohms with the switch contributing
25 ohms of de-stabilizing resistance. Replacing
the switch drops total down to 75 milliohms and
the regulator is happy again . . . but not for
as long as it would be when replacing ALL
sources of age/service related resistance
in the bus-to-regulator pathway.
The obvious, elegant solution in original
design is to incorporate a regulator that separates
voltage sense wires from field current supply
wires. The LR-3 does just that. Any new regulators
I design will have separate sense wires too.
Does this suggest that the OBAM community
should rip out all their three-terminal
switchers and bolt on the LR-3? Not at all.
The automotive style regulators have for the
most part given good value but they DO have
special characteristics that only one mechanic
in 1000 understands. In the spam-can world,
ignorance is shoveled out at $thousands$ per
non-idea, in the OBAM aircraft world, we've managed to
keep those costs MUCH lower . . . and much of
it happens right here on the AeroElectric
List.
Bob . . .
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Avionics Master Switches |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dennis O'Connor" <doconnor@chartermi.net>
You have to understand that for an A&E doing something new is a lose-lose
situation... His defense when anything goes wrong is that, 'we always do it
that way so it's not my fault!'... He isn't about to give up his only
defense...
The answer is to do your own homework (as you are doing), listen to all
viewpoints and consider whether they are based on facts or emotion, then
make your own decisions - and don't waste your breath arguing with people
who make their decisions based on, "we always do it that way".
Denny
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan O'Brien" <danobrien@cox.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Avionics Master Switches
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Avionics Master Switches |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
The reason for the Electrical bypass has nothing to do with protection.
This was done to provide max voltage for the starter in cold weather.
Cy Galley - Bellanca Champion Club
Newsletter Editor & EAA TC
www.bellanca-championclub.com
Actively supporting Aeroncas every day
Quarterly newsletters on time
Reasonable document reprints
1-518-731-6800
----- Original Message -----
From: <ktlkrn@cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Avionics Master Switches
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <ktlkrn@cox.net>
>
> Simple, in a car (at least in the past 25 years) when you turn the key to
> light the engine all other power to accessories is cut, i.e. an "avionics
> master switch."
>
> Darwin N. Barrie
> Chandler AZ
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rino" <lacombr@nbnet.nb.ca>
> To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Avionics Master Switches
>
>
> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Rino <lacombr@nbnet.nb.ca>
> >
> > Dan O'Brien wrote:
> > >
> > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan O'Brien"
> <danobrien@cox.net>
> > >
> > > At the hanger Saturday working on my Lancair ES I had occasion to talk
> to
> > > an electrical guy installing a panel in a Lancair IVP. I described
the
> > > electrical system I've adopted (Z-14), and when I noted that I
wouldn't
> > > have an avionics master switch, his lips pursed, his eyes narrowed,
and
> he
> > > just shook his head. Said he's seen many avionics fried by electrical
> > > spikes. Says he's seen it happen in planes and on the bench, where he
> saw
> > > 24 volts fry a 12 volt piece of equipment. The guy helping me on my
> plane,
> > > who has helped out on 18 Lancairs, had the same reaction as he
listened.
> I
> > > started defending myself with arguments I've read on this list
(avoiding
> > > single point failures; having good over-voltage protection; the DO-160
> > > standards, etc.). Still, they both thought I was pretty much
> > > bonkers. They were adamant about it.
> >
> > Why electronics fry in airplanes and does not in cars.
> > I simply do no understand, is there a virus that attack airplane
> > electronics only?
> > What is so special about aircraft avionics? Is it that fragile?
> >
> > Rino
> >
> >
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Avionics Master Switches |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dennis O'Connor" <doconnor@chartermi.net>
Bob, tsk, tsk, tsk.... I suspect that if the fickle finger of fate does get
you someday, the offical DOT report will cite the lack of an avionics master
switch AND that you didn't file a flight plan!
Now everyone knows that lacking either of those will cause you to fall out
of the sky...
Denny
----- Original Message -----
From: "mailbox bob at mail.flyboybob.com" <bob@flyboybob.com>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Avionics Master Switches
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "mailbox bob at
mail.flyboybob.com" <bob@flyboybob.com>
>
> Dan,
>
> The argument that an avionics master provides any protection to the
avionics
> is complete hog wash! It's a procedure thing. If you don't turn off the
> avionics master for starting, then what magic characteristic of the
avionics
> master will protect your expensive avionics? It still comes down to did
the
> pilot follow the correct start-up procedures. The avionics master
provides
> no protection, it merely provides a single point of failure for all
> avionics, and a single point for conveniently turning off the avionics.
> We'll ignore the argument creating a surge by turning on all the avionics
at
> one time with an avionics master.
>
> In the case of folks on this list, we're trying to build aircraft
electrical
> systems that belong in the 21st century. Reliability is more important to
> us than convenience, therefore we turn off the avionics at each unit's
> on/off switch and eliminate the single point of failure of the avionics
> master. There is nothing functionally different between what you are
doing
> and what your so called experts are trying to get you to do. It's just
that
> they value convenience and tradition over reliability. As for me,
improving
> reliability of the overall system is the best course to follow regardless
of
> how the certified birds are built. Thanks to lectric Bob for setting the
> higher standard and encouraging us to reach it!
>
> Regards,
>
> Bob Lee
> ______________________________
> N52BL KR2 Suwanee, GA 30024
> 91% done only 51% to go!
> Phone/Fax: 770/844-7501
> mailto:bob@flyboybob.com
> http://flyboybob.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dan
> O'Brien
> To: Aeroelectric-List@matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Avionics Master Switches
>
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan O'Brien" <danobrien@cox.net>
>
> At the hanger Saturday working on my Lancair ES I had occasion to talk to
> an electrical guy installing a panel in a Lancair IVP. I described the
> electrical system I've adopted (Z-14), and when I noted that I wouldn't
> have an avionics master switch, his lips pursed, his eyes narrowed, and he
> just shook his head. Said he's seen many avionics fried by electrical
> spikes. Says he's seen it happen in planes and on the bench, where he saw
> 24 volts fry a 12 volt piece of equipment. The guy helping me on my
plane,
> who has helped out on 18 Lancairs, had the same reaction as he listened.
I
> started defending myself with arguments I've read on this list (avoiding
> single point failures; having good over-voltage protection; the DO-160
> standards, etc.). Still, they both thought I was pretty much
> bonkers. They were adamant about it.
>
> Now I know this has been thrashed through in the archives. I've read all
> the threads, and it strikes me that Bob Nuckolls always wins the argument
> (though I sense that those on the other side are sometimes never
> convinced). Nevertheless, I can't seem to find anyone other than people
> who read this list who think it's a good idea not to install an avionics
> master. Even the more progressive manufacturers of certified GA planes,
> Lancair and Cirrus, with new "high tech" machines, have decided to install
> avionics master switches in their ships. The Lancair Columbia 300 manual
> even cautions:
>
> "There is a significant amount of electrical current required to start the
> engine. For this reason, the avionics master switch must be set to the
OFF
> position during starting to prevent possible serious damage to the
avionics
> equipment."
>
> As a non-specialist, how is one to evaluate this issue? On the one hand,
> the complete absence of real empirical support for the existence of radio
> killing spikes in response to Bob's requests for such evidence on this
list
> seems quite relevant. On the other hand, the fact that the overwhelming
> majority of experienced avionics people I've spoken with think it's nuts
> not to protect avionics with a separate switch/contactor/bus also seems
> relevant.
>
> Perhaps there is no simple answer?
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Avionics Master Switches |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dennis O'Connor" <doconnor@chartermi.net>
I wonder, does the Shuttle have a single master switch that kills
everything, including the three backup flight computers?
Denny
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Avionics Master Switches |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 08:09 PM 8/27/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <ktlkrn@cox.net>
>
>Simple, in a car (at least in the past 25 years) when you turn the key to
>light the engine all other power to accessories is cut, i.e. an "avionics
>master switch."
Close, but no cigar. The "accessory" bus in an automobile
carries lots of loads not the least of which used to be
a/c and heater blowers. Allowing everything to operate
while cranking the engine will indeed put the three year
old, capacity challenged battery at a disadvantage.
Consider that while accessory loads are removed during
cranking, all the super-whippy ignition and fuel control
systems with their micro-circuits are still on-line . . . else
one could not get the engine started.
The automotive industry has been diligent in their
approach to risk mitigation for transient voltages.
They DESIGN in protection just like DO-160 calls for
in airplanes. Nothing so crude as opening a switch
just to protect sensitive electro-whizzies from
those mean ol' starter motors.
Bob . . .
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: B&C Installation Details |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dennis O'Connor" <doconnor@chartermi.net>
Try this
http://www.hillsdaleterminal.com/rings2.html
and this
http://www.hillsdaleterminal.com/nylonflags2.html
and here
http://www.hillsdaleterminal.com/quickdisconnects2.html
Amazing what a few keystrokes on google will produce in 0.12 seconds...
Denny
----- Original Message -----
From: <PeterHunt1@aol.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: B&C Installation Details
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: PeterHunt1@aol.com
>
> In support of Larry, I too am a customer who feels B&C can do a much
better
> job of including instructions/directions with their products.
> but some of my questions (like attaching 24 and 26 AWG wires when crimped
> connectors, particularly quarter inch fast-on tabs, do not come that
small),
> haven't been answered.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: B&C Installation Details |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 10:07 PM 8/27/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: PeterHunt1@aol.com
>
>In support of Larry, I too am a customer who feels B&C can do a much better
>job of including instructions/directions with their products. After a very
>frustrating week, last Saturday I wrote Tim Hedding, the engineer at B&C,
>a three
>page letter asking for instruction on two B&C products I purchased and
>pointing out other areas/products where written documentation would have
>helped me.
>I hope my comments were taken in the constructive intent with which they were
>written.
>
>Yes, B&C's web site answers some questions, but not most of mine. There is
>also Bob's articles at http://www.aeroelectric.com/ which answer a few more.
>But I can't find an index for Bob's articles and the file names are not
>sufficiently intuitive for me to figure out what the content of each may
>be. I did
>call up and print each article out which took 9 hours over two days on my
>ancient computer.
Why not get the CD Rom? It's easy to click an article and
look it over for possible value to a particular task. It
takes perhaps 20 seconds per item. I've got a new
index that will group the articles by categories and make
them more convenient to access but the notion of printing
out paper copies of all that material is a daunting task
on the fastest of computers . . . that's why the CD was
crafted. I don't have paper copies of all that stuff and
I wrote most of it.
> That also helped some. Of course I ask questions on this list,
>but some of my questions (like attaching 24 and 26 AWG wires when crimped
>connectors, particularly quarter inch fast-on tabs, do not come that small),
>haven't been answered. I asked that question a couple of weeks
>ago. Well, Bob did
>respond by only asking "What kind of avionics do you have?" Do I have to
>tell Bob that harnesses made by the supplier on my S-Tec System 30, my
>Century
>NSD 100 HSI, and my PS Engineering PCD-7100I intercom all have some of these
>small wires in order to get him to answer a simple crimping question?
No, not at all. But when someone SUPPLIES such small wires as part of
their recommended installation, why not ask them how they propose
it be installed in your airplane? I am skeptical of the experience
level of designers that use anything smaller than 22AWG in box-to-box
wiring of airframe components unless they've taken special steps
to make it quick and painless (I've designed system that use
28AWG ribbon cable . . . with connectors already supplied on each
end). When an installer is pondering how to put a fast-on terminal
on a 26AWG wire, there's something wrong with this picture. Fast-ons
are not crafted for this size wire 'cause AMP couldn't conceived the
notion that anyone would ever want to do it. I didn't catch
your reply to my original query, sorry 'bout that. It wasn't
intentional. I'd intended to continue this tread of discussion
as follows:
Until Premier, 22AWG was the smallest airframe wire you'd find
an a Raytheon aircraft. I noticed that they took the big leap
into that foggy world of weigh-reduction by wire sizing to save
a hand-full of pounds while allowing some horrible systems
designs to go forward that penalized them tens of pounds per
system (don't get me started on that one). We've got some
24AWG airframe wiring (ALL of which is crimped into connector
pins designed for that size wire by automated machines).
Folks on the harness floor don't like to re-work problems
with this size wire but perhaps they're just honking about
having to deal with a new but practical task. Time in the
field will reveal whether or not that design decision
was a good one or not.
>In support of B&C I must tell you all that Todd has a very positive attitude
>about getting me help if I call and we have a good relationship. It just
>sometimes takes days or a week to get an answer like a wiring diagram for
>their
>S704-1 relay. Consequently, as a consumer of the good products of B&C I
>feel a
>page of instruction with products would often save me hours (and at times
>weeks) of wasteful hunting. As I pointed out to Tim, even a can of soup has
>directions.
With respect to "dropped threads" of discussion. For myself
at least, I've found that it's necessary to start with the
most recent posts and work my way backwards. Depending on
time available -OR- the need to ponder a reply, a response
will get pushed back. When I have larger blocks of time, I
look for older items in the in-box and try to address them.
Nonetheless, there are items that don't get picked up.
From time to time, I'll clean out everything in my in-box
that's more than 30 days old. Just zapped away about 200
items yesterday.
This isn't a blatant effort to brush anyone off . . .
it's just the only way I have to make most considered
use of my spare time.
Pete, forgive me my friend but if things like diagrams on S704
relays has been a big hang-up for you, I'm compelled to suggest
that you've not availed yourself of TONS of such guidance available
right here on the list from lots of folks. I wouldn't bother
Tim with any question that was not related to something he
has original equipment manufacturing responsibility for. Just
because B&C has taken on the task of being a one-stop-shopping
source for all those nifty purchased parts, tools and materials
doesn't give them duties for systems integration and user education
on yours or any other builder's project.
The folks at B&C do have an intense interest in making your
job easier and they're happy and willing to help
you as much as they can . . . but when someone's wages
are based on value-added efforts they do for the company,
the chunks of time we can reasonable expect to punch
out of their day for rudimentary education is necessarily
limited if we don't want the cost of their products to go up.
Please put your questions up here on the list first
and bang on the pot a little too if it seems that
the question is being ignored. I'm certain that you,
other folks on the list with the same questions
-AND- the nice folks at B&C will all be happier.
Getting back to your wire question: If you really need
to put a fast-on or other crimped terminal on so small
a wire, the only thing you can do is strip extra long
and double or quad-up the strands to better fill the
wire grip space in the terminal. Also, put a piece of
heatshrink over the end of the wire to increase its
insulation diameter to let masquerade as the kind of
wire it would like to be if it ever grows up.
Finally, anyone has a question hung up on the
AeroElectric List, it never hurts to post a reminder
. . . you're not going to offend me and it's a good
way to keep a thread on the front burners.
Bob . . .
Message 13
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| Subject: | avionics masters |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gary Casey" <glcasey@adelphia.net>
<<Simple, in a car (at least in the past 25 years) when you turn the key to
light the engine all other power to accessories is cut, i.e. an "avionics
master switch.">>
A couple of observations: I would guess that the aircraft electrical system
is more "fragile" that a car system. The battery is smaller and the
alternator is larger. In the interest of weight savings the wire gage sizes
might be smaller. all of this presumably could result in higher amplitude
voltage transients. But cars have little or nothing in the way of voltage
suppressors for inductive loads and one of the big ones is the AC clutch,
which switches on and off all the time. Another data point: The accessory
terminal on the ignition switch is mostly there to reduce the superfluous
loading on the battery during cranking in order to extend the cold starting
ability - much of the engine and chassis control units are powered all the
time. And of course, the engine control ECU, probably the most complex
electronic device in the car, is powered during cranking.
What's all this mean? I think nothing. The only reason I can think of,
after following this thread for a while, for having an avionics master is
the convenience of one switch instead of several. As someone said, it's a
trade=off between convenience and reliability.
Gary Casey
ES
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Fusible links and elec ignition |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 10:00 AM 8/27/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "I-Blackler, Wayne R"
><wayne.blackler@boeing.com>
>
>Hi Bob,
>
>I am wiring the dual Lightspeed ignition systems on my EZ this weekend. I
>plan to run from the two batteries directly through individual fusible
>links (22AWG), then 18AWG or 20AWG 22759/16 for each through individual
>Carling SPST switches, and 18AWG/20AWG back to the Lightspeed boxes
>located above the spar.
>
>My questions:
>
>Is this an acceptable set-up given I do not have main/aux fuse holder type
>hot buses?
No, IF you have fuseblock battery busses, you can certainly
consider running an ignition system from one of the fuses.
But if you're more comfortable with the robustness of the
fusible link, it can be tied off the fuseblock feeder stud
-OR- attached directly to hot side of battery contactor
if you don't have battery busses other than electronic
ignition.
>If I wanted to use the switch breakers I planned to use initially (they're
>still sitting in the panel), could I use a fusible link at the batt end to
>protect the wire from batt to switch, and use the switch to protect the
>wire to the Ignition boxes?? I'm not sure that's an acceptable practice...
>or practical... or functional...
>
>Can I use 22AWG links with 20AWG, or is this not enough 'breathing space'?
>Klaus says 18AWG or 20AWG should be used. Perhaps 22AWG links and 18AWG?
22/18 would be fine.
>Can I get some silicon covered fibreglass sleeving to suit directly from
>you? I couldn't see it on B&C's website. Perhaps you know a good place to
>pick some up.
B*C offers the FLK-1 kit that has butt-splices, wire and
silicone sleeve . . . .
I like the fast action of fuses to minimize excitement
should circuit protection be called upon to mitigate
damage . . . and you do have two ignition systems so
SYSTEM reliability is only mildly influenced by fuses
vs. fusible links.
On the other hand, the likelihood that circuit protection
for ignition systems will EVER be called upon to operate
is small too. Sooooo . . . I'd be comfortable with
either approach.
Bob . . .
Message 15
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dj Merrill <deej@deej.net>
Hi all,
I've probably missed this looking over the aeroelectric site.
Does anyone know where I can find a circuit diagram for a good
light dimming circuit that can be used for instrument lighting?
I actually want to dim 3 separate circuits, post lights, back lighting
on some instruments, and a chart light.
Thanks!
-Dj
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: dimmer circuit |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" <Larry@BowenAero.com>
If you are successful, let me know the secret.
I have two dimmers from Van's. One is for cabin/panel/post lights the
other is for things in the panel. One post light works like I hoped it
would. But that's all. The TruTrak AP backlight dims down, then goes
full bright. The EI fuel guage does nothing. The trim indicators just
spaz as the dim is adjusted, etc, etc.
What's the trick?
-
Larry Bowen
Larry@BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
Dj Merrill said:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dj Merrill <deej@deej.net>
>
> Hi all,
> I've probably missed this looking over the aeroelectric site.
> Does anyone know where I can find a circuit diagram for a good
> light dimming circuit that can be used for instrument lighting?
> I actually want to dim 3 separate circuits, post lights, back lighting
> on some instruments, and a chart light.
>
> Thanks!
>
> -Dj
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: B&C Installation Details |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 09:00 AM 8/28/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dennis O'Connor"
><doconnor@chartermi.net>
>
>Try this
>http://www.hillsdaleterminal.com/rings2.html
>and this
>http://www.hillsdaleterminal.com/nylonflags2.html
>and here
>http://www.hillsdaleterminal.com/quickdisconnects2.html
>
>Amazing what a few keystrokes on google will produce in 0.12 seconds...
Note that these products are mainly 22AWG and fatter. Only
the first link speaks to the 20-24AWG wire range . . . these
are the next step down (and the smallest) insulated
terminals I'm aware of . . . they're yellow in color
(the size vs. color cycle runs red, blue, yellow, red,
blue, etc). I've seen this series of terminal in a number
of applications on certified ships . . . but be aware
that the PIDG tools commonly available don't include
this smaller size in their crimping capabilities.
Note that the links speak to uninsulated, two
piece (terminal and plastic insulator only), and
three piece (terminal, insulator =AND= insulation
grip sleeve) styles of terminal.
Bob . . .
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: dimmer circuit |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 10:40 AM 8/28/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dj Merrill <deej@deej.net>
>
>Hi all,
> I've probably missed this looking over the aeroelectric site.
>Does anyone know where I can find a circuit diagram for a good
>light dimming circuit that can be used for instrument lighting?
>I actually want to dim 3 separate circuits, post lights, back lighting
>on some instruments, and a chart light.
>
>Thanks!
Sorry 'bout this. There's a package cited in the What's New
index but not yet on the master index page. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/DimmerFabrication.pdf
Bob . . .
Message 19
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| Subject: | ELT ground plane |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Slade" <sladerj@bellsouth.net>
As one of the last items, after the upholstery, I'm installing an ELT in my
Cozy IV.
The ELT book says it wants a 3 ft ground plane - 6 * 18 inch legs of copper
foil tape on a horizontal surface. Yea right!
I thought of using the stainlesss steel firewall, which is of course is
vertical, but I guess this way I'd only get found if I was stuck in the
ground nose first.
Any suggestions?
John Slade
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: ELT ground plane |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" <mprather@spro.net>
The ELT is just another VHF comm antenna - a dipole like
you use for your other comm antennas (in your winglets?) would
be the best thing as far as performance. Because of the somewhat
questionable effectiveness of ELT's as a SAR tool, I don't think
I'd lose a whole lot of sleep if you don't have an ideal antenna
for it...
You can test the effectiveness whatever antenna you cook up by
unplugging the ELT from it and plugging in another comm
radio (handheld?) and do some signal strength and range trials.
Regards,
Matt-
VE N34RD
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Slade"
> <sladerj@bellsouth.net>
>
> As one of the last items, after the upholstery, I'm installing an ELT in
> my Cozy IV.
> The ELT book says it wants a 3 ft ground plane - 6 * 18 inch legs of
> copper foil tape on a horizontal surface. Yea right!
>
> I thought of using the stainlesss steel firewall, which is of course is
> vertical, but I guess this way I'd only get found if I was stuck in the
> ground nose first.
>
> Any suggestions?
>
> John Slade
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: ELT ground plane |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "" <wschertz@ispwest.com>
John,
I got the ACK ELT, and it had the same instructions. I used the 6 * 18" foil legs
glued to the interior of the fuselage. although not flat, they curve with the
fuselage, I believe that they will work okay.
Bill Schertz
KIS Cruiser # 4045
----- Original Message -----
From: John Slade
Subject: AeroElectric-List: ELT ground plane
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Slade" <sladerj@bellsouth.net>
>
> As one of the last items, after the upholstery, I'm installing an ELT in my
> Cozy IV.
> The ELT book says it wants a 3 ft ground plane - 6 * 18 inch legs of copper
> foil tape on a horizontal surface. Yea right!
>
> I thought of using the stainlesss steel firewall, which is of course is
> vertical, but I guess this way I'd only get found if I was stuck in the
> ground nose first.
>
> Any suggestions?
>
> John Slade
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 22
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gianni Zuliani" <gianni.zuliani@bluewin.ch>
Hi Bob,
I'm planning to install one NAV/COM and one GPS/COM, none of which has the nice
feature to monitor the stand-by communication frequency. Doing away with an audio
panel, how about parallel the two receive-audios and use a simple toggle
switch for transmit-audios and keyline? Would it be useful and feasible, in your
opinion? How? What would happen when double receiving?
I'd appreciate your opinion and suggestions.
Gianni
Message 23
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "mailbox bob at mail.flyboybob.com" <bob@flyboybob.com>
DJ,
I built my dimmer from a 1992 Sport Aviation Article for about $4 at the
Shack
(http://flyboybob.com/images/kr2/n52bl/electric%20and%20instrument/dimmer01.
gif). The unit is rated at 5 amps without heat sink and 15 amps with heat
sink. I didn't use a heat sink and am running 10 post lights, 10 indicator
switches, 6 meter back lights, uMonitor, Nav/Com, Transponder, and GPS. It
was a bit of a chore to "balance" the lighting so that the brightness of all
devices was uniform. I ended up with two outputs, one directly from the
dimmer and a second one through a 20W 8ohm resistor to a few of the lights
that seemed to come on too quickly. Also I was using salvage post lights so
I had to make sure that all the bulbs were of the same rating. Now the
panel has a uniform glow across the range of the dimmer.
Regards,
Bob Lee
______________________________
N52BL KR2 Suwanee, GA 30024
91% done only 51% to go!
Phone/Fax: 770/844-7501
mailto:bob@flyboybob.com
http://flyboybob.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dj
Merrill
Subject: AeroElectric-List: dimmer circuit
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dj Merrill <deej@deej.net>
Hi all,
I've probably missed this looking over the aeroelectric site.
Does anyone know where I can find a circuit diagram for a good
light dimming circuit that can be used for instrument lighting?
I actually want to dim 3 separate circuits, post lights, back lighting
on some instruments, and a chart light.
Thanks!
-Dj
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: B&C Installation Details |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dennis O'Connor" <doconnor@chartermi.net>
So, what's the answer?
Denny
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
> Note that these products are mainly 22AWG and fatter. Only
> the first link speaks to the 20-24AWG wire range . . . these
> are the next step down (and the smallest) insulated
> terminals I'm aware of . . . they're yellow in color
> (the size vs. color cycle runs red, blue, yellow, red,
> blue, etc). I've seen this series of terminal in a number
> of applications on certified ships . . . but be aware
> that the PIDG tools commonly available don't include
> this smaller size in their crimping capabilities.
>
> Note that the links speak to uninsulated, two
> piece (terminal and plastic insulator only), and
> three piece (terminal, insulator =AND= insulation
> grip sleeve) styles of terminal.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 25
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| Subject: | OBAM vs. Certified thread |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: drew.schumann@us.army.mil
I "lifted" this from another list. Marie Antoinette has nothing on this guy.
Wondering how people on this list differ from this philosophy.
Jerry Eichenberger <jeichenberger@ehlawyers.com>
Sent Thursday, August 28, 2003 8:15 pm
To drew.schumann@us.army.mil
Cc
Bcc
Subject RE: SWPC: GA's future, and pessimism
Drew - We just don't agree. At my airport alone, there are many new (less
than 10 year old) airplanes. The hangar next to mine houses a brand new
182. Across the way from mine, there's a year old Saratoga.
The reason that airplanes are, as some see it, built to old technology,
ought to be obvious - first, it works. Next, anything new has some risks,
and airplanes aren't the place to take unneeded risks, and third, the costs
to certify new things are tremendous.
I, for one, am prefectly happy with a Lycoming engine that runs and lasts.
I don't need some fancy new ignition system just to say it's new, nor do I
need a FADEC control to keep me from setting both MP and RPM where I want
them, instead of where some software engineer though best.
Also, except for a very few (the new RV may change that), homebuilts are 2
place airplanes. Very few of the larger homebuilts get made.
I'm just one who likes change for the sake of safety and real improvement,
but not just for the sake of change alone.
Jerry
-----Original Message-----
From: drew.schumann@us.army.mil [drew.schumann@us.army.mil]
Subject: Re: SWPC: GA's future, and pessimism
So, despite the enthusiasm about new and incredible developments, most have
which have been around since the late 1970s, why are the certified aircraft
sold today built to 1930s standards? All the good ideas are currently being
used in OBAM aircraft. Despite going to Osh every year since 1988, don't
you get a little jaded seeing all those terrific ideas which never find
their way into certified GA aircraft?
I'm not a pessimist. I think the homebuilt, or OBAM movement, has
incredible up-side. I just think the commercially-available, new certified
GA aircraft have been legislated and litigated out of existence.
Drew
----- Original Message -----
From: Jerry Eichenberger <jeichenberger@ehlawyers.com>
Subject: SWPC: GA's future, and pessimism
> You guys are a bunch a pessimists. Did you go to Oshkosh this
> year? I did,
> as I do every year since 1988.
> Every aviation publication is abuzz with all of the new stuff -
> airframes,avionics, engine (both gas and diesel) on display.
> Those same pubs are
> praising the attitudes, crowds, and general "high" that seems to be
> abounding now.
> IMHO, having been at this since 1965, we have as much enthusiasm
> in 2003 as
> I've seen since the late 1970s.
> We won't see the kinds of numbers of new airplanes that we saw in
> 1978, when
> 19,000 new airframes rolled out of all of the factories combined.
> But it's
> getting better every week now, since the bottom was hit a few
> years ago.
> Homebuilts are great, and I hope that side of the GA world
> continues to
> grow. But the majority of pilots, nationwide, have neither the
> time, skill,
> nor inclination to build even a "quick-build" kit. The only thing
> that I'd
> want flying in an airplane that I built would be a rabid animal
> that I
> wanted to kill.
> The nice thing about opinions is that we all have them, and none
> can be
> proved wrong.
> Jerry
>
>
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: B&C Installation Details |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 01:19 PM 8/28/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dennis O'Connor"
><doconnor@chartermi.net>
>
>So, what's the answer?
>Denny
No particular answer to this posting . . . just re-enforcing
the notion that 24AWG and certainly 26AWG crimp products
are at the extreme limit of readily available and easily
implemented technology.
With respect to forging ahead with tools and materials
already in-hand, we can referring to the second paragraph
from the bottom on my earlier other post . . .
"Getting back to your wire question: If you really need
to put a fast-on or other crimped terminal on so small
a wire, the only thing you can do is strip extra long
and double or quad-up the strands to better fill the
wire grip space in the terminal. Also, put a piece of
heatshrink over the end of the wire to increase its
insulation diameter to let masquerade as the kind of
wire it would like to be if it ever grows up."
Bob . . .
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: dimmer circuit |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dj Merrill <deej@thayer.dartmouth.edu>
On Thu, 2003-08-28 at 11:29, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
> Sorry 'bout this. There's a package cited in the What's New
> index but not yet on the master index page. See:
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/DimmerFabrication.pdf
>
> Bob . . .
That's great! Thanks!!
Please forgive me - this is a newbie question:
Where can I buy that kit, and what is the price?
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill Thayer School of Engineering
ThUG Sr. Unix Systems Administrator 8000 Cummings Hall
deej@thayer.dartmouth.edu - N1JOV Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH 03755
"On the side of the software box, in the 'System Requirements' section,
it said 'Requires Windows 95 or better'. So I installed Linux."
-Anonymous
Message 28
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
While grabbing some epoxy at the local auto store I ran across "Start Me Up". This
is an little
device the size of a couple packs of playing cards with a cigarette lighter connector.
With a dead battery, one plugs this into the connector and five minutes
later--vroom. (One presumes). See one here--
www.startmeup.com and many other places if you do a google search.
The device is 36 volts and one-time use and weighs very little. It costs about
$25 so they wind up on the discount racks after a while for $10. Lifetime is better
than five years so this is a real deal.
How this thing works: The insides contain a 6-stack of 6V Polapulse batteries,
and (probably) no current limiting. With a dead battery, this thing will bring
up the charge level to the point where the engine will start in a few minutes.
Then the battery pack is dead.
See: www.polaroid-oem.com/pdf/batteries.pdf
This might be very nice as an emergency backup device. I would certainly consider
it.
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
Phone (508) 764-2072
Email: emjones@charter.net
I wouldn't want to belong to a club that would accept ME a member.
--Groucho Marx.
Message 29
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 12:51 PM 8/28/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "mailbox bob at
>mail.flyboybob.com" <bob@flyboybob.com>
>
>DJ,
>
>I built my dimmer from a 1992 Sport Aviation Article for about $4 at the
>Shack
>(http://flyboybob.com/images/kr2/n52bl/electric%20and%20instrument/dimmer01.
>gif). The unit is rated at 5 amps without heat sink and 15 amps with heat
>sink. I didn't use a heat sink and am running 10 post lights, 10 indicator
>switches, 6 meter back lights, uMonitor, Nav/Com, Transponder, and GPS. It
>was a bit of a chore to "balance" the lighting so that the brightness of all
>devices was uniform. I ended up with two outputs, one directly from the
>dimmer and a second one through a 20W 8ohm resistor to a few of the lights
>that seemed to come on too quickly. Also I was using salvage post lights so
>I had to make sure that all the bulbs were of the same rating. Now the
>panel has a uniform glow across the range of the dimmer.
This configuration of solid state dimmer was incorporated
into Cessna light twins about 1981 and into Bonanzas and
Barrons about the same time. I got to redesign the circuit
for Beech some years later. Seems the circuit is VERY
intolerant to shorts. Further, post lights are noteworthy
for their shorting propensity. It was not uncommon for a
Beech factory dimmer assembly in a new airplane to be the
second or third one installed before the airplane made
it out the door.
I developed a fold-back current-limited, 4-channel
dimmer that simply went into passive shutdown if shorted.
Their assembly-line failure rate went down to almost
zero.
Dimmers fabricated from the linear, three-terminal
regulators go first into current limit followed by
temperature limited shutdown. While a microsecond long
short on the emitter-follower dimmer cited above will
send it to Never Never Land, both the 3-terminal
linears and certainly circuits designed for short
tolerance will prove much more user friendly.
I can probably resurrect a schematic of the fold-back
limited circuit if anyone wants it.
Bob . . .
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| Subject: | Re: Routing wires - test results. |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 10:51 PM 8/26/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
><bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
>At 09:49 PM 8/26/2003 -0500, you wrote:
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "William" <wschertz@ispwest.com>
> >
> >Why not insert a screw through a countersunk piece of scrap fiberglass
> >layup, and bond it with epoxy to the fuselage wall. Screw is captured
> >between 1" square fiberglass and wall of fuselage.
> >Bill schertz
>
> Do up some samples and see how much "oomph" it takes
> to pull it off straight (pure tension), sidways
> (pure shear) and pushing it over (bending). If
> you like the numbers you see, then this will
> work for you. I'm expecting tensile and shear
> strengths on the order of 200-500 pounds (at
> 160F) and expect to see the threaded stud bend
> before the bond tears loose.
Did the pull and shock tests with several epoxy cements
on the proposed bonded-studs. Pull tests were excellent,
but a light tap with a hammer would break the bond between
the cements and smooth surfaces. A low temperature to high
temperature excursion parted the joint with no extra force.
Preliminary tests with an acrylic adhesive are much more
encouraging . . . more tomorrow.
Bob . . .
Message 31
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| Subject: | your note of August 9 |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
I am presently involved in building a single seat wooden biplane
called an Isaacs Fury,(7/10 rep of Hawker Fury-predecessor
to Hurricane)which will be fitted with a 1OOHP Rotax 912S
engine. Most things are nearing completion except the
engine + instrument installation. The most daunting of
the aforementioned being the electrics!!
Electrics are the easy and fun part . . .
My Dad is a consultant electrical engineer, who I don't want to
pester too much, and has no experience in the aeronautical side
of electrical installations. However I am conversant with the
"nuts and bolts" of wiring, but I could certainly do with some
of your expertise/experience, do feel a little overwhelmed, as
I would like a quality + reliable installation .... ! !
If you've followed any of the conversations on the AeroElectric
List or read much of my writing, you'll understand that my
definition of "reliable" has more to do with designing
a failure tolerant system as opposed to failure proof.
The first is easy, the second nearly impossible.
Plan for two RG batteries, 40A alternator + the following to be
powered:
Why two batteries? If a 40A alternator, I presume this
is a direct or belt driven alternator in addition
and external to the existing 18A alternator on the
Rotax?
*Tum-Co-Ordinator
*Clock
*GPS
*Transponder
*Radio
*Fuel Pressure Gauge
*Fuel Level Gauge-Later??
*Voltmeter
*No Lights-Yet?
*CrowbarOVM unit + Aux.Batt.Management Module fitted
Will your Aeroelectric Book have all the answers, or can you assist
me now please?
Can't predict that outcome. Take a quick pass
through the book and we'll continue the conversation from there.
A few little questions for you;-
I)How do I de-crypt your PK-wirebook? I ain't heard of AutoCad.
You can download the CD rom from my website which includes
an old Windows based cad program that will open and edit
the .dwg drawing files offered from the website.
2)Why do manufactures use solenoids for battery isolation and not
those big manual isolators say for agricultural vehicles?
Guess I don't know what these are. Can you point me to
a website that describes them and how they work?
3)If a voltmeter is fitted, why fit a low voltage light too?
You need an ACTIVE notification of low voltage. Voltmeters
tend to be overlooked/ignored for too long.
4)Would a auto or motorcycle "fuse box" be okay or stupid?
I recommend fuseblocks. See articles on website about
fuses vs. breakers at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/fuseorcb.html
and fuseblocks at
http://www.bandc.biz/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?7X358218
5)There's an a/c breakers nearby could I purchase a cheap loom+
use The wire off it? Or again would this be a foolhardy idea?
I'd recommend you start from scratch using materials
and techniques you understand and trust.
6)Seems funny that your're prepared to modify the Piper Ground
Power Jack so much-the basic design must appeal to you....
Not necessarily, it's just that US fixed base operators
have ground power cables to fit this connector. It's an
okay connector but with lousy wire connection technique
for the stock part. Fabricating a real attachment stud
gets past the most troubling feature of the stock design.
7)What does B&C stand for?
BILL and CELESTA Bainbridge . . . owners of B&C Specialty
products.
I will invite you to join us on the AeroElectric List to
continue this and similar discussions. It's useful to share
the information with as many folks as possible. A further
benefit can be realized with membership on the list. There
are lots of technically capable folks who can offer suggestions
too. You can join at . . .
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe/
Thanks!
Bob . . .
|---------------------------------------------------|
| A lie can travel half way around the world while |
| the truth is till putting on its shoes . . . |
| -Mark Twain- |
|---------------------------------------------------|
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: EFIS "D" 10 software |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: N823ms@aol.com
Bob:
In a hurry with my new toy, I bought the Radio Shack serial>USB cable,
$45.00! That did not work, so I ordered a cable from DELL with FTD1 chip set.
This was recommended by someone who had this problem . DELL said, if it does not
work, I can send it back. Mean time E-mail continues to come in and a great
website is www.shopnow123.com. A lot of people have got this cable that
apparently works---$9.75! There are also a number of other electronic gismos,
people
may like to see. Check it out. I want thank you, Bob, for the seminar in
Nashville this past Feb, got my first crack of making an electrical harness for
my
EFIS 10. Mean time I still amazed at many of the manufacturers who offer
products knowing there is a possible problem and leaving the consumer with
???????????. In my case, I look at it as a chanllenge to resolve the problem. Others
find it unfair, poor business practice or whatever; And rightly so, if you pay
for something you should get what you pay for or at least the technical
support to resolve issues. If not, send the product back. Its a judgement call,
however, the OBAM community would not be where it is today if we all elected not
to participate. Concerning the small manufacturers, there biggest asset is the
consumer R&D. There is a lot of talent out there. We all benefit no matter
what your decision is.
I will let people now how this comes out. I will either be 10.00 or 100.00
down. The Radio Shack cable is going back.
Regards,
Ed Silvanic
Lancair ES
Message 33
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "mailbox bob at mail.flyboybob.com" <bob@flyboybob.com>
'lectric Bob wrote:
<<
I developed a fold-back current-limited, 4-channel
dimmer that simply went into passive shutdown if shorted.
>>
Bob,
From this I infer that if there is a short in the lighting circuitry, that
you only loose a quarter of the lights, (one of four channel's). If my
inference is correct, I would be very interested in your offer to look up
the circuit.
Thanks,
Bob Lee
______________________________
N52BL KR2 Suwanee, GA 30024
91% done only 51% to go!
Phone/Fax: 770/844-7501
mailto:bob@flyboybob.com
http://flyboybob.com
Message 34
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| Subject: | EFIS "D" 10 software |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robinson, Chad" <crobinson@rfgonline.com>
> The Radio Shack cable is going back.
If I had a nickle for every time somebody said THAT... =)
Thanks for the pointers to the other sites that sell the FTDI cables, folks.
Regards,
Chad
Message 35
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie & Tupper England <cengland@netdoor.com>
Mark Banus wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark Banus" <mbanus@hotmail.com>
>
>Try closing all programs running and close all icons in your tray.
>
And why might I want to do that?
(unless it was to quit using 'Blindows' for the last time & convert to
Linux....)
;-)
do not archive
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: Avionics Master Switches |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Tom Brusehaver <cozytom@mn.rr.com>
Maybe in some previous 25 years, but more recently
radios stay on in cars ('96 camaro, '80 450SL for
sure) when the starter is turning.
ktlkrn@cox.net wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <ktlkrn@cox.net>
>
> Simple, in a car (at least in the past 25 years) when you turn the key to
> light the engine all other power to accessories is cut, i.e. an "avionics
> master switch."
>
> Darwin N. Barrie
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: Unstable charging system . . . |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 07:46 PM 8/28/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>I will keep you informed as I progress with the repair. Reference the
>split master, I did purchase a new Piper type split master because of
>problems with the original one I installed in 1996 (and it was used). The
>expense was quit high compared to the Cessna replacements, but things were
>all ready set up for ring/screw type connector instead of the spade type.
Actually, the spade terminals are superior to the
ring/screw terminals but that's another issue.
>Any tips on checking the switch to somehow insure its level of functioning?
It takes a micro-ohmmeter to measure on resistance for
a switch . . . generally not a part of most shop tools.
I paid more than I want to recall for mine!
>Thanks again, I will get to work.
It would be interesting to have the switch you take
out of your airplane for testing.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: dimmer circuit |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Chris Good" <chrisjgood@lycos.com>
Larry,
Some devices are dimmed by applying 12v to the appropriate pin, rather than a variable
output from a dimmer control. It's usually recommended to wire these
to the nav light switch, so that they dim when the nav lights are switched on.
The EI fuel gauge & the MAC servo indicators function this way.
I was looking at a Trutrak wiring diagram last night & you have to ground one pin
& wire the dimmer to another to make it work. I'm not sure which model that
was for & yours may be different.
Regards,
Chris Good,
West Bend, WI
RV-6A http://www.rv.supermatrix.com
--------- Original Message ---------
DATE: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 10:54:08
From: "Larry Bowen" <Larry@BowenAero.com>
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" <Larry@BowenAero.com>
>
>If you are successful, let me know the secret.
>
>I have two dimmers from Van's. One is for cabin/panel/post lights the
>other is for things in the panel. One post light works like I hoped it
>would. But that's all. The TruTrak AP backlight dims down, then goes
>full bright. The EI fuel guage does nothing. The trim indicators just
>spaz as the dim is adjusted, etc, etc.
>
>What's the trick?
>
>-
>Larry Bowen
>Larry@BowenAero.com
>http://BowenAero.com
Get advanced SPAM filtering on Webmail or POP Mail ... Get Lycos Mail!
Message 39
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 03:52 PM 8/28/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "mailbox bob at
>mail.flyboybob.com" <bob@flyboybob.com>
>
>'lectric Bob wrote:
>
><<
> I developed a fold-back current-limited, 4-channel
> dimmer that simply went into passive shutdown if shorted.
> >>
>
>Bob,
>
> From this I infer that if there is a short in the lighting circuitry, that
>you only loose a quarter of the lights, (one of four channel's). If my
>inference is correct, I would be very interested in your offer to look up
>the circuit.
I dug back into some old notebooks. I suspect this
sketch is not the final configuration but it's
been adjusted for ballpark values for 14v operation.
http://216.55.140.222/temp/FoldbackDimmer.gif
With a little study of the circuit, you'll find
a crude but much more effective voltage stabilizer
circuit than what the simple pot/transistor
combination offers (and some what degraded from what
we can do today with the adjustable 3-terminal
regulators).
Note that if the load is shorted to ground,
all necessary bias to get conduction in Q2
is lost. Q1 shuts down completely.
The only current flowing is that through
R which is startup current. The value
of R varies depending on how many lamps are
being controlled. I think I ended up with
680 ohms for the biggest string of 28v lamps.
Try 330 ohms for 14 volt strings.
Alternatively, one can eliminate R entirely
and incorporate a startup oscillator built from
a CD4093 schmidt-trigger gate array and a couple
of components.
The first stage is a square wave oscillator
running approx 1 Hz. The remaining three
gates are paralleled to make a "power
amplifier" . . .
The value for C is something on the order
of 500 pF. What we want to do is hit the
base of Q2 with a very narrow turn-on
pulse about once per second. If you short
the output of your dimmer, the think simply
lays down except for periodic, millisecond
attempts to stand up. Power dissipation
in this mode is very low but the ability
to pick up a large lamp-load (in spite of
low cold-resistance of filaments) is very good.
One startup oscillator can drive multiple
dimmers . . .
Obviously, the parts count of this approach
is much higher than for current production
offerings from B&C using the 3-terminal
regulators . . . but it's bullet-proof
for tolerance to dead shorts of any duration
on the outputs. Electro-Mech built several
thousand of these things for the Bonanzas and
Barons. I'll have to wander over on the
production line and see if they're still
using this product.
Bob . . .
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: OBAM vs. Certified thread |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 08:46 PM 8/28/2003 +0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: drew.schumann@us.army.mil
>
>I "lifted" this from another list. Marie Antoinette has nothing on this
>guy. Wondering how people on this list differ from this philosophy.
>
> Jerry Eichenberger <jeichenberger@ehlawyers.com>
>Sent Thursday, August 28, 2003 8:15 pm
>To drew.schumann@us.army.mil
>Cc
>Bcc
>Subject RE: SWPC: GA's future, and pessimism
>
>
>Drew - We just don't agree. At my airport alone, there are many new (less
>than 10 year old) airplanes. The hangar next to mine houses a brand new
>182. Across the way from mine, there's a year old Saratoga.
>The reason that airplanes are, as some see it, built to old technology,
>ought to be obvious - first, it works.
so does the hammer . . . relatively unchanged for
millennia. But no modern carpenter could keep up
with his nail-gun wielding compatriots by swinging
a hammer . . .
>Next, anything new has some risks,
>and airplanes aren't the place to take unneeded risks,
??? good engineering strives for product improvement
such that changes reduce risk by increasing service life,
producing failure tolerant systems, or REDUCING dependency
upon the human operator to make the RIGHT decision and take
the RIGHT action every time . . .
> and third, the costs
>to certify new things are tremendous.
He's got that right. Check out the inflation
calculators on the 'net. One that I use suggests
that gasoline I used to pay $0.40/gallon for in 1960
is CHEAPER today than it was back then. Had $0.40
gas grown at the rate of inflation, it would cost
$2.37/gallon today.
Okay, how about a C-172 that cost as I recall about
$7500 in 1960. It should cost under $50,000 today.
Not so. In spite of super-inflated costs, I'll venture
to suggest that the C-172 of today is not a whole
lot better than 1960.
>I, for one, am prefectly happy with a Lycoming engine that runs and lasts.
>I don't need some fancy new ignition system just to say it's new, nor do I
>need a FADEC control to keep me from setting both MP and RPM where I want
>them, instead of where some software engineer though best.
Hmmmm . . . bet he'd like to be driving the Model T
with driver operated spark advance controls and primer!
Could it be that some software engineer and engine designer
were able to figure out EXACTLY what the engine needs?
I really like being able to start the car in a few seconds
on a minus 10 day and not even have to touch the gas
peddle. If they could make my airplane engine equally as
friendly at the same price as the one in my GMC,
whoopti-doo!
>Also, except for a very few (the new RV may change that), homebuilts are 2
>place airplanes. Very few of the larger homebuilts get made.
But the vast majority of flying in light aircraft is
with 2 or less folks. Need more room? Rent a bigger
airplane for the odd trip that requires more hauling
ability. I've been doing just that for over 20 years.
Works really great.
>I'm just one who likes change for the sake of safety and real improvement,
>but not just for the sake of change alone.
If he's pleased with the state of the art for his
segment of the hobby, then I am pleased for him. I have
no illusions about what we do here taking hold and
becoming the philosophy-of-choice for a majority
of OBAM aircraft. Without the mandate of government to
control direction, what we're doing will probably
never be practiced by more than 10% of the OBAM
community . . . and that is as it should be.
Let's not give the Jerrys of the world too hard
a time, if we're to enjoy our positions at the
upper end of the bell curve, there MUST be
occupants of the lower end of the curve. We
can invite and encourage them to join us but
not be too upset if they choose not to. If they're
satisfied where they are then I suggest there's
little value in trying to convince them that they
should not be satisfied.
The bell curve is a fact of nature and science
that cannot be tampered with. For every exemplary
activity there MUST be a counter-balancing mediocre
activity. Government believes that it can fool
around with mother nature but only succeeds in
"leveling the playing field" such that EVERY
activity is mediocre.
Bob . . .
Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: OBAM vs. Certified thread |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Aucountry@aol.com
In a message dated 08/28/03 10:07:34 PM, bob.nuckolls@cox.net writes:
> He's got that right.=A0 Check out the inflation
> calculators on the 'net.=A0 One that I use suggests
> that gasoline I used to pay $0.40/gallon for in 1960
> is CHEAPER today than it was back then. Had $0.40
> gas grown at the rate of inflation, it would cost
> $2.37/gallon today.
>
Gas here in California is $2.15 for cheap stations and up to $2.95 for full
serve.
Message 42
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| Subject: | Switching On with Lightspeed |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Greg Grigson <iflyhawaii2@yahoo.com>
Fellow Listers:
What type of toggle switches is recommended with one impulse magneto and the Lightspeed
Plasma II ignition system that produces a similar Aeroelectric Connection-type
"lockout" feature for impulse-only starting. Also what failure mode
would suggest a 5A CB vs an in-line fuse off the hot battery bus as directed
by the installation manual. Breakers bug me.
As always thanks for the intelligent support.
Greg Grigson
Honolulu
---------------------------------
Message 43
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| Subject: | Re: OBAM vs. Certified thread |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gerry Holland <gnholland@onetel.com>
>
> Gas here in California is $2.15 for cheap stations and up to $2.95 for full
> serve.
ENJOY!
The equivalent here in UK is at least $3.85 without any bloody service at
all!!
Do not archive
Regards
Gerry
Gerry Holland
Europa 384
G-FIZY
+44 7808 402404
gnholland@onetel.com
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