---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 09/04/03: 44 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:25 AM - Antenna tuning (Fergus Kyle) 2. 06:40 AM - Master switch warning light/buzzer (Fergus Kyle) 3. 07:22 AM - master warning buzzer (Gary Casey) 4. 07:32 AM - Hall sensor problem??? (Charles Brame) 5. 07:44 AM - Re: Internally regulated alternator (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 07:58 AM - Re: master warning buzzer () 7. 07:58 AM - Re: expanded scale voltmeter and loadmeter (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 08:17 AM - Re: server back up . . . (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 09:14 AM - aeroflash strobes with Nova X-Pac 904 (Sigma Eta Aero) 10. 09:46 AM - Re: master warning buzzer (RVEIGHTA@aol.com) 11. 09:51 AM - tri-positon switch location (Bob Kuc) 12. 10:11 AM - Re: master warning buzzer (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 13. 10:15 AM - Re: aeroflash strobes with Nova X-Pac 904 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 14. 10:23 AM - Turn Coordinator Substitute (brucem@olypen.com) 15. 10:42 AM - Re: tri-positon switch location (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 16. 10:53 AM - Re: Rotax 912 and ACS ignition switch (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 17. 10:55 AM - Re: noise from a stereo, Altrak altitude (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 18. 11:05 AM - walkman adapter (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 19. 11:06 AM - Re: Hall sensor problem??? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 20. 11:27 AM - Re: Re: Wire and Fuse Size for E-bus (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 21. 11:58 AM - Re: noise from a stereo, Altrak altitude hold (mstewart@qa.butler.com) 22. 12:09 PM - Re: Wiring Nulites (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 23. 12:10 PM - Re: Picking a new battery (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 24. 12:35 PM - Re: Re: Wire and Fuse Size for E-bus (follow up) (Dick Jordan) 25. 12:37 PM - Re: noise from a stereo, Altrak altitude (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 26. 12:49 PM - less expensive power supply with Aeroflash heads (Sigma Eta Aero) 27. 01:18 PM - Re: tri-positon switch location (Bob Kuc) 28. 01:46 PM - Re: site back up . . . (Lockamy, Jack L NA) 29. 02:04 PM - Re: aeroflash strobes with Nova X-Pac 904 (Bill Hibbing) 30. 02:54 PM - Re: less expensive power supply with Aeroflash heads (LarryRobertHelming) 31. 02:57 PM - Re: less expensive power supply with Aeroflash heads (Sigma Eta Aero) 32. 03:27 PM - MAC elevator trim rocker switch (EddyFernan@aol.com) 33. 05:19 PM - Re: less expensive power supply with Aeroflash (Tom Brusehaver) 34. 06:11 PM - Re: Rotax 912 and ACS ignition switch (Duncan McBride) 35. 06:20 PM - Re: MAC elevator trim rocker switch (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 36. 06:57 PM - Re: Re: Wire and Fuse Size for E-bus (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 37. 06:57 PM - Re: Re: Wire and Fuse Size for E-bus (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 38. 06:58 PM - Re: tri-positon switch location (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 39. 07:20 PM - : MAC elevator trim rocker switch (Denis Walsh) 40. 08:01 PM - Re: tri-positon switch location (Bob Kuc) 41. 08:51 PM - Re: Re: Wire and Fuse Size for E-bus (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 42. 08:53 PM - Re: Rotax 912 and ACS ignition switch (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 43. 09:02 PM - Re: tri-positon switch location (Robinson, Chad) 44. 10:00 PM - Antenna Placement (Brian Reiter) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:25:33 AM PST US From: "Fergus Kyle" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Antenna tuning --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" Rob, If you found a Ham radio shop, you might be able to find the local Amateur Radio Club. Since making and researching antennas is one of the few remaining skills available to hams, they usually are well equipped to measure them. As you know they are professionals who do not charge for their services, so you should be able to attract the 'old guard' to your project. If one accepts (our gang does), he will doubtless bring along an antenna analyzer which gives much more accurate assessment at even low powers and VHF. They CAN be most helpful and probably curious as well, so no commercial mumbo-jumbo or obfuscation. .......for your consideration. Ferg PS: A professional is one who does his best according to his training, experience and conscience. One who does it for pay (or what his boss says) is a "commercial". ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:40:29 AM PST US From: "Fergus Kyle" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Master switch warning light/buzzer --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" Time: 01:19:35 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Master Switch Warning Light/buzzer From: Gerry Holland Walt Hi! > Another question is do you have any suggestions or recommendations for an > externally mounted power plug to be used to jump start an a/c with low > battery? I've fitted a Aux. Power on port side of Aircraft viewable from P1 seat. It's from a Race Car shop. Based around lightweight Plastic Socket with matching input Plug with pullout handle. 2 versions. 50A and 175 Amp Will carry 'jump' leads in A/C so whenever onboard power feels lazy I can get a jump start from just about any 12V device. I went for 50Amp. Cost about $25 for 50A and $40 for 175A In an effort to keep it simple I positioned to clearly see connections still made to outside world and in fact can reach forward and disconnect from Cabin. Regards Gerry Walt, I did the same as Gerry, with a GP fitting just ahead of the cockpit, port side, so that pilot can supervise if prop is hot (bound to occur). I made use of Bob Nuckolls' GPU design because over here the PIper plug is available at many FBOs. I can also reach out from the seat and disconnect if needed because it's so near the prop. Good luck Ferg ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:22:19 AM PST US From: "Gary Casey" Subject: AeroElectric-List: master warning buzzer --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gary Casey" <> Why not get a cheap beeper from Radio Shack and hook it across the low-voltage warning light? Get a fairly weak one so it won't be audible in flight, but will be with everything off. Gary Casey ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:32:53 AM PST US From: Charles Brame Subject: AeroElectric-List: Hall sensor problem??? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charles Brame Problem solved. Well, at least the problem went away. Can't say I solved anything. I disassembled and reassembled the Hall sensor, the fat wire it is supposed to read, plus all the power circuit connections and the VM-1000 connections. No help. I finally looked at my power supply and wondered if the leads were too light for the 7-8 amp load. I made a new set of leads using 14 AWG wire and, VIOLA, my VM-1000 started to work right. I had been losing about 1.5 volts between the power supply and the VM-1000 volt sensing, plus the VM-1000 was showing no amps. With the new leads, I lose only 3 tenths of a volt, and the ammeter is showing a robust 6 amps with my instrument lights, avionics, instruments and the battery on line. I can assume the power supply leads were the problem the whole time. Charlie Brame RV-6A N11CB San Antonio ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:44:35 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Internally regulated alternator --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 05:44 AM 9/4/2003 +0000, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Amit Dagan" > >Bob, >I have been carefully studying your internally regulated alternator >protection diagram (Z-24), and after I incorporate it into Z-11, I think I >see no less than 5 (albeit related) protections against a malfunctioning >alternator. > >If I have it right, I see: > >1. 22AWG fusible link This is protection only for the short piece of wire that extends the main bus up to the 5A breaker. >2. 5A circuit breaker, connected to This is to satisfy the design goals of the crowbar OV module for an easy to trip, easy to reset response to a dead-short presented by the OV module. >3. Over-Voltage "corwbar" module The brains of the ov protection system. >4. O-V disconnect relay Necessary because failures within an internally regulated alternator cannot be mitigated by simply shutting down power to the control line to the back of the alternator. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/FAQ/Internal_Regulator/ >5. ANL60 current limiter. This device protects ships system from hard faults within the alternator . . . shorted pairs of diodes in the rectifier. This is extremely rare. Automobiles don't include this protection and the incidence of vehicle fires due to shorted alternator diodes is virtually unheard of . . . Diodes are so much more reliable than when alternators first came onto the scene that I suspect there will be a statistical justification for leaving this item out of the system in future designs. However, it's not expensive in comparison to the overall cost of the airplane and if it were my airplane, it would be present even though there's almost a certainty that it would never be called upon to operate over the lifetime of the airplane. It's probably more likely that your b-lead wire will get faulted to ground than having diodes go bad. >I wonder of you could explane the scenario in which each of these devices is >called into action. > >And then I have 2 other questions: >What could an automotive voltage regulator (if added to the circuit) give >as far as protection ? There is nothing a regulator can do to "protect" . . . it just regulates. If it decides to quit regulating, then other features are provided to protect against regulator failure. >If one has this regulator, Could one then eliminate any other devices ? The b-lead contactor can go away if the alternator is externally regulated. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:58:08 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: master warning buzzer --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: The cheapest, easiest solution is simply to always leave your beacon or strobes on. You have to really be asleep not to notice when you're out of the airplane. It's saved me from leaving the master on a couple of times. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Casey" Subject: AeroElectric-List: master warning buzzer > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gary Casey" > > < master on and running down the battery? I just did it today, and it's a > pain in the posterior.>> > > Why not get a cheap beeper from Radio Shack and hook it across the > low-voltage warning light? Get a fairly weak one so it won't be audible in > flight, but will be with everything off. > > Gary Casey > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:58:38 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: expanded scale voltmeter and loadmeter --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 01:40 AM 9/4/2003 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John R > >Why can't you just do a simple zener voltage dropping circuit? Yes it >would be slightly non-linear, but close enough to serve very >effectively, I should think - like: > >Ground ---> A <--10v Zener---> B <--- 1K-Ohm ----> C <--- Bus+ > >The bus voltage goes across points A and C; a 5-volt voltmeter goes >across the 1K resistor (B and C)... if you want to use a direct-reading >milliammeter (Full-Scale=1mA) rather than a voltmeter, just put a 5K >resistor together in series with the milliammeter across points B and C >above - or if you want to be able to calibrate it, use a 4.7K and >500-ohm trimpot instead of the 5K.If you're using a 50-uA meter, use a >100K resistor (or 90K + 20K trimpot) in series with the microammeter >across points B and C. > >Wouldn't this be a lot simpler and get the job done? This has been done but zeners are not precision regulators. They have a spread of 5% on tolerance, pretty high temperature drift characteristics and high internal impedance. There are more precise voltage reference chips like the LM185 series device from National. Figure 7-18 of the AeroElectric Connection describes how these devices can be integrated with an analog panel meter and some resistors to generate an accurate and stable expanded scale voltmeter. >-John R. >P.S.: If you want to go all solid state with a bargraph, a fairly simple >circuit can be made around the LM3914 - as a matter of fact I believe I >still have a hundred or so left over from a PC power supply monitor I >used to manufacture - if you want to design a kit around it, I'll donate >them to the cause (and yes they're still in their tubes)... This is a really handy chip. If I were to consider a non-microprocessor approach to this task, a pair of them designed to drive a 20 LED bar graph would give you 5% resolution over the range of 10 to 15 volts or 0.25 volt steps. This would duplicate the measurement range of the product I offered. For slightly better resolution, the display range could be compressed to 10.5 to 14.5 volts for 0.2 volt steps. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:17:51 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: server back up . . . --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" I am gratified at the many offers of support for both expenses and 'net connected hardware that I've received in response to the situation on our San Diego server loads. I'm reluctant to put out the hat for financial support because a major connectivity link for this service is based on Matt Dralle's systems at matronics.com I don't want to siphon off any support that could be funneled into Matt's invaluable support of the OBAM aircraft community. A number of folks have offered 'net connected drive space. I'm considering several options for new digs on the 'net for all or part of the 'Connection's files. It seems likely that we'll have a practical solution within the next few days. In the mean time, if anyone has information support dollars burning a hole in their pockets, don't forget Matt sets his hat out once every year. Bob . . . -------------------------------------------- ( Knowing about a thing is different than ) ( understanding it. One can know a lot ) ( and still understand nothing. ) ( C.F. Kettering ) -------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:14:36 AM PST US From: Sigma Eta Aero Subject: AeroElectric-List: aeroflash strobes with Nova X-Pac 904 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Sigma Eta Aero Will the Nova X-Pac 904 work with the Aeroflash strobe/nav/pos units? Here's the specs for each... Each Aeroflash power supply (designed for use with their strobes) has a 2.7 amp draw (two power supplies) and the output is supposed to be 10 joules each. The X-Pac 904 has an output energy of 80 joules (total) and the output power when divided between two heads is 45 watts per head. Now the weird thing is that there is a note under the power output specs that says Note: This supply reduces output power when only two outlets are activated. Does this mean it actually delivers less than the 45 watts per head??? It appears that the X-Pac 904 has a little more kick than the Aeroflash units. Question is can the Aeroflash strobes handle the extra power? I dont know much about strobe construction and whether the materials differ that much between the different units. The Nova supply is supposed to work well with the Whelan strobes but can the Aeroflash strobes handle it? Anybody compared the physical properties of the Whelans and the Aeroflashes? If this combination works it might offer an intermediate brightness between the two strobes at a much lower total cost than either. Thanks! Joa --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:46:48 AM PST US From: RVEIGHTA@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: master warning buzzer --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: RVEIGHTA@aol.com Jim, I've been doing exactly what you suggest - leave the strobe light on - and it's saved my battery a time or two already! Thanks, Walt Shipley ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:51:09 AM PST US From: "Bob Kuc" Subject: AeroElectric-List: tri-positon switch location --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bob Kuc" I am looking for a tri-position switch. A left/right/push type switch that is momentary. Anyone have any links on where to find it? I looked in the digi-key catalogue and could not find one there. Also, does anyone have a good link to an 8x1 lcd display? Thanks Bob --- ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:11:01 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: master warning buzzer --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 11:05 AM 9/4/2003 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: > >The cheapest, easiest solution is simply to always leave your beacon or >strobes on. You have to really be asleep not to notice when you're out of >the airplane. It's saved me from leaving the master on a couple of times. > >Jim >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Gary Casey" >To: "Aeroelectric-List" >Subject: AeroElectric-List: master warning buzzer > > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gary Casey" > > > > > < > master on and running down the battery? I just did it today, and it's a > > pain in the posterior.>> > > > > Why not get a cheap beeper from Radio Shack and hook it across the > > low-voltage warning light? Get a fairly weak one so it won't be audible > > in flight, but will be with everything off. > > > > Gary Casey The low votlage warning light on an LR-3 is pretty bright and would indeed be flashing away at you if the battery master were left on (as would the low voltage warning offered from our catalog). LV warning watches the main bus and would not let you know if the e-bus alternate feed switch were left on . . . Another alternative: If you have an oil pressure switch with single pole, double throw contacts like that offered by B&C, you can wire one throw for hour meter control, the other throw for LOW OILP warning light. Run the light from the e-bus and put the buzzer across the light as Gary suggests. The illuminated oil pressure light + buzzer would let you know if anything were left on . . . including the e-bus alternate feed switch. Bob . . . -------------------------------------------- ( Knowing about a thing is different than ) ( understanding it. One can know a lot ) ( and still understand nothing. ) ( C.F. Kettering ) -------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:15:59 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: aeroflash strobes with Nova X-Pac 904 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 09:13 AM 9/4/2003 -0700, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Sigma Eta Aero > > >Will the Nova X-Pac 904 work with the Aeroflash strobe/nav/pos >units? Here's the specs for each... > > >Each Aeroflash power supply (designed for use with their strobes) has a >2.7 amp draw (two power supplies) and the output is supposed to be 10 >joules each. > > >The X-Pac 904 has an output energy of 80 joules (total) and the output >power when divided between two heads is 45 watts per head. Now the weird >thing is that there is a note under the power output specs that says >Note: This supply reduces output power when only two outlets are >activated. Does this mean it actually delivers less than the 45 watts per >head??? Probably. energy is stored on capacitors. One capacitor per flash tube. If you disconnect one flashtube, the capacitor associated with that tube no longer gets discharged and the input energy to the system goes down. One might parallel two outputs to a single flash tube but be cautious here. The flash tubes have to dump out a lot of heat that is proportional to the average power. Hooking a 10J tube to a higher output power supply will certainly reduce tube life and could cause it to fail rapidly due to overheating. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:23:47 AM PST US From: brucem@olypen.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Turn Coordinator Substitute --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: brucem@olypen.com The FAA has seen the light. The recently released AC 91-75 (available at www.faa.gov) shows how a second attitude indicator may be substituted for the gyroscopic rate-of-turn indicator required for IFR under FAR 91.205(d)(3). The catch is the need for a power source independent of the one feeding the primary AI. If electric, the substitute AI will cost $1200 more than a TC or T&B. Now that puts a price on one's partial panel comfort level! FWIW, Bruce McGregor --------------------------------------------- This message was sent using OlyPen's WebMail. http://www.olypen.com ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:42:03 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: tri-positon switch location --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 12:46 PM 9/4/2003 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bob Kuc" > >I am looking for a tri-position switch. A left/right/push type switch that >is momentary. Anyone have any links on where to find it? I looked in the >digi-key catalogue and could not find one there. Also, does anyone have a >good link to an 8x1 lcd display? I presume you're describing an (on)-off-(on) offered by B&C as their S700-2-7 at: http://www.bandc.biz/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?11X358218 Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:53:36 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Rotax 912 and ACS ignition switch --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 10:37 AM 9/2/2003 -0700, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Sigma Eta Aero > > >For wiring a Rotax 912 with the ACS A-510-2 switch (Page 381 in Spruce >catalog) do any of the terminals have to be jumpered (IOW is either of the >magnetos a retard breaker or have impulse coupling type features)? > > >Also, I assume that you would run the shielding from both mags to the >ground terminal (term 5) and then NOT run a ground from this to the >firewall grounding block (but ground each cable shield individually at the >ignition block), right? Yes, wire exactly as shown in Figure Z-16 >The only thing that cornfuses me about this single point grounding >technique is that when the engine is running the mags are ungrounded >anyway so why does it make a difference? Single point grounding for noise control is not related to ignition control. You want to use the shields as ground for the switch and ground shields at the engine end only. >Also, I assume I should use the diode supplied with the ACS switch (when >wiring per Z-16)? No, the reasoning behind that diode is bogus. See http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/spikecatcher.pdf Put a diode across your contactor coil if it's not already there. The diode supplied with the switch will be fine. Adding it across the switch per ACS instructions adds no value. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:55:49 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: noise from a stereo, Altrak altitude hold --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 02:42 PM 9/2/2003 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: mstewart@qa.butler.com > >Hi Folks, > >Well I have this annoying noise in my RV. First let me say that I wired this >thing BEFORE I knew anything about grounding so my airframe is my ground. >(DONT SHOOT ME PLEASE) > >After 800 hours I installed the Altrak altitude hold. When it is engaged, I >get this morris code noise in my headsets, only when the stereo is powered >on. The noise is definitely the stepper motor servo making the noise. The >servo is installed in the fuse in the tail cone, far from the stereo mounted >on my panel. > >I have tried shielding the wires coming from servo, I tried moving the servo >wires to the other side of the fuse as they make their way to the panel. > >Is there something bizarre about Stereos that amplify noise in this >frequency range. I also tried a Rat Shack RF choke on the stereo power line. You're going to have to deduce the propagation mode for getting the noise into your audio system. Have you read the chapter on noise in the 'Connection? Adding ground almost never fixes and can make noise problems works. You need to do the homework and ferret out the noise path before you're going to be able to fix it. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:05:46 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: walkman adapter --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 01:19 PM 9/4/2003 +0000, you wrote: >Below is the result of your inquiry. It was submitted by >Greg B (parism70@yahoo.fr) on Thursday, September 4, 2003 at 06:19:04 > >Thursday, September 4, 2003 > >Greg B > >, >Email: parism70@yahoo.fr >Comments/Questions: I'm thinking of buiding an adaptor to be able to >listen to a walkman while flying. For this i should have on one side a >PJ-068 male and on the other side a 3.5mm stereo jack. Do you know how to >connect and if there are any technical issues with doing this. Thanks for >your fast reply Try http://216.55.140.222/temp/WalkmanAdapter.gif I will invite you to join us on the AeroElectric List to continue this and similar discussions. It's useful to share the information with as many folks as possible. A further benefit can be realized with membership on the list. There are lots of technically capable folks on the list who can offer suggestions too. You can join at . . . http://www.matronics.com/subscribe/ Well considered and technically elegant answers to all of your questions are waiting for you there. Also, check out the downloadable materials at Thanks! Bob . . . |---------------------------------------------------| | A lie can travel half way around the world while | | the truth is till putting on its shoes . . . | | -Mark Twain- | |---------------------------------------------------| ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:06:24 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Hall sensor problem??? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 09:32 AM 9/4/2003 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charles Brame > > >Problem solved. Well, at least the problem went away. Can't say I solved >anything. > >I disassembled and reassembled the Hall sensor, the fat wire it is >supposed to read, plus all the power circuit connections and the VM-1000 >connections. No help. > >I finally looked at my power supply and wondered if the leads were too >light for the 7-8 amp load. I made a new set of leads using 14 AWG wire >and, VIOLA, my VM-1000 started to work right. I had been losing about >1.5 volts between the power supply and the VM-1000 volt sensing, plus >the VM-1000 was showing no amps. With the new leads, I lose only 3 >tenths of a volt, and the ammeter is showing a robust 6 amps with my >instrument lights, avionics, instruments and the battery on line. I can >assume the power supply leads were the problem the whole time. Interesting. Pleased to hear that progress is being made even if we don't understand exactly how or why! Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:27:12 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Wire and Fuse Size for E-bus (follow up) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > As a rule of thumb, we try to avoid always-hot feeders breakered > at more than 5A . . . since fuses are so much faster, we could > stretch that to 7A which will supply most folks e-bus with a > reasonably sized, always-hot wire from battery bus. > > It's a good idea to provide a disconnect right at the battery > bus for alternate feeds larger than 7A. > > I published a drawing of this some months ago for someone but > until my server gets back up, I can't point you to it. Will > follow up on this later today. See http://216.55.140.222/temp/E-BusFatFeed.gif Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:58:05 AM PST US From: mstewart@qa.butler.com Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: noise from a stereo, Altrak altitude hold ORIGINAL_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=ham version=2.53 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: mstewart@qa.butler.com Anxiously awaiting my book which I ordered mid last week. And I will do my homework as soon as I get it. Thanks Mike Stewart -----Original Message----- From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III [mailto:bob.nuckolls@cox.net] Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: noise from a stereo, Altrak altitude hold --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 02:42 PM 9/2/2003 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: mstewart@qa.butler.com > >Hi Folks, > >Well I have this annoying noise in my RV. First let me say that I wired this >thing BEFORE I knew anything about grounding so my airframe is my ground. >(DONT SHOOT ME PLEASE) > >After 800 hours I installed the Altrak altitude hold. When it is engaged, I >get this morris code noise in my headsets, only when the stereo is powered >on. The noise is definitely the stepper motor servo making the noise. The >servo is installed in the fuse in the tail cone, far from the stereo mounted >on my panel. > >I have tried shielding the wires coming from servo, I tried moving the servo >wires to the other side of the fuse as they make their way to the panel. > >Is there something bizarre about Stereos that amplify noise in this >frequency range. I also tried a Rat Shack RF choke on the stereo power line. You're going to have to deduce the propagation mode for getting the noise into your audio system. Have you read the chapter on noise in the 'Connection? Adding ground almost never fixes and can make noise problems works. You need to do the homework and ferret out the noise path before you're going to be able to fix it. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 12:09:57 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wiring Nulites --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 12:29 PM 9/3/2003 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dr. John Birgiolas" > > >I have completed my 701 but for the engine and panel. I am starting the >panel now and have not been looking forward to it. > >I have installed ringlites on four instruments, each of which has a + and >- wire. Can I connect the four + wires together and > >connect them as one to the bus or should each wire have an individual >connector? Sorry for the basic question, the first of many. > >I have been following the site for some time, but this is probably too >basic a question. Your first task on this system decision is to do the FMEA (failure mode effects analysis) for the system in question. I just finished updating and posting an article I did on the subject for Sport Aviation almost 10 years ago. You can get a copy at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/FMEA.pdf Basic questions you need to consider for this or any other selection of component or technique are: 1. How many ways can this part fail? 2. How will each failure affect system operation? 3. How will I know it failed? 4. Is the failure preflight detectable? 5. Is failure of this part, in any failure mode, likely to create a hazard to flight? 6. Will failure of this part be likely to overtax my piloting skills for comfortably terminating the flight? John, I know it looks like I'm trying to treat a simple question like a taxpayer- financed research project . . . but consider the following: A quick FMEA on various options will reveal the risks of "not doing it right" . . . if something comes unhooked, the lights go out. If one of the exposed strands at a joint gets a short to the airframe, the lights go out. We protect all circuits so that failures in any one system do not propagate to other systems. Are you going to be in trouble if these four lights decide not work some night? If the answers to the "FMEA-6" suite of questions reveal no great cause for concern, then one the responses to your question is, "No matter how you choose to connect these wires together, the choices can be based on a sense of craftsmanship without getting all wound around axles of "reliability" and/or "tradition". So, what works best for you? If the space is tight, then the task can be as simple as soldering all the wires together and covering with a layer of heat-shrink tubing leaving you with a couple of wires to route off to the dimmer control and ground. If you want your project to take on the airs of a Beechjet, then you could mount a D-sub connector on spacers on the back side of your panel to create a "minibus" . . . See: http://216.55.140.222/temp/minibus.jpg You could do this with a 9-pin connector to accommodate your 4 sets of Nulite wires. The point of all this is to suggest that whatever technique you decide to use, there's no overwhelming justification based on safety or tradition for any particular technique . . . as long as you're pleased with answers to the FMEA-6 . . . >Is there a problem routing the transponder and radio antennas beside the >battery cables or would it be better to route them on > >the opposite side of the fuselage with the headphone, mike and strobe/nav >wiring? They're fine all run together. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 12:10:29 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Picking a new battery --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 07:25 AM 9/3/2003 -0700, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tinne maha" > > > Unless you need the "ballast" it's almost a certainty > that you can get by with a much smaller battery. How > old will your 28 a.h. battery be by the time of first > flight? What kind of battery is it? > > >As my BC 110 SLA/RGbattery is already 5 years old ( dead) I will get a new >one before I fly.Thanks to your response I'm sure I can get by >electrically with a smaller battery. So now the question becomes 'How much >smaller?': I don't think this is right but if Isum all the E-Bus fuse >sizes on Fig Z-11 I get 28 amps. (IfIhave 4 hours of fuel that can't mean >I need 4x28 AH of capacity. Obviously I'm trying to make it too simple) I >know all the fuses don't draw that much all the time but how do I figure >the steady state load for an alternator out scenario? Recall that fuses protect wires and they need to be large enough not to nuisance trip under normal operating conditions. The sum total of fuse/breaker ratings has almost nothing to do with how much power it takes to operate your airplane. EVERY device you plan to use has a known electrical load requirement. Sometimes it's marked on the nameplate, it should always be part of the specifications data for the product. If push comes to shove, you can power the device up on the bench with a battery or better yet, a power supply set for 14.0 volts and measure the device's operating needs. In the case of radios, check the installation manual's first few pages for operating requirements . . . or call the manufacturer. You need to know this information for ALL of the devices in your airplane if you'd like to make considered decisions for sizing hardware. Some builders take the broad brush approach and install the classic 24-18 a.h. battery and a 60A alternator. It's much better and not difficult to a load analysis that describes your electrical needs exactly. See http://216.55.140.222/temp/Load_Analysis.pdf for a graphical example. Make copies of page 2 of this file. Fill in the blanks for equipment items and continuous running loads for various flight conditions. Only after you've completed this exercise are you in a position to make an educated decision about battery size and/or what your personal goals are for alternator-out endurance. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 12:35:55 PM PST US From: "Dick Jordan" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Wire and Fuse Size for E-bus (follow up) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dick Jordan" Bob, I'm building an all electric airplane using single battery, dual alternator per your Z-12. The Aux alternator is 20 AMPS. You ask how the plane will be used since this dictates what eqpt. is essential for the E-Bus.My answer is VFR & soft IFR. I had hoped to include the EFIS ONE plus a modified " Six Pak" for redundancy. The modified aspect involves substituting the DIGITRAK'S electronic DG presentation for a stand alone DG. The downside of this poor man's DG is that it requires GPS input from the EFIS engine. I mention this in that the two sources are tied together. Inclusion of the equipment mentioned in my first E-Mail on the load of my E-Bus would make me feel warm and fuzzy if I have to operate in IFR. Putting your E-Bus on a diet really makes you think...Especially when most of the load is in the EFIS. With this as the case I was glad to receive your comment that an SD-8 would support the EFIS with a 14 AWG/15 AMP fuse...I assume that a 20 AMP Aux Alternator would therefore allow inclusion of the Art. Horizon too. This would alter wire and fuse size slightly. Your comment on the mini Contactor for the fat wire E-Bus supply is a good one . Do you have a specific model in mind ? Isn't the model you mentioned designed for the SD-8 ?Would a standard Battery Conractor work ? Thanks so much for your insight and valuable assistance, Dick Jordan Malvern,Pa. RV- 8A ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Wire and Fuse Size for E-bus (follow up) > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > At 11:09 PM 9/2/2003 -0500, you wrote: > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > > > > >At 09:47 PM 9/2/2003 -0400, you wrote: > > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dick Jordan" > > > > > >#1: Blue Mt. Suggests 10 AMP circuit but they advise normal load @ 4 AMPS. > > > > > >#2:Starting load shown; reduces to 1.2 AMPS after spooling up. > > > > > >#3: Xmit load shown;Receive @ .7 AMPS. > > > > > >If you reduce by the factors in the notes the load should be approx 12 AMPS. > > > > If you're really wanting the e-bus to be an endurance bus, then > > I'd put the horizon gyro and EFIS on the main bus. Recall that > > the purpose of the e-bus is to maximize use of limited resource > > in the en route mode of flight. If you've suffered some kind of > > failure that makes the e-bus most valuable, then you want to > > get into the "Apollo 13" en route mode of power utilization until > > you've got airport in sight. I suspect the autopilot in a > > smooth air mode draws less than 3A average. Nav/Com will be > > in the receive mode 99% of the time. 0.8A is too much for lighting. > > > > Dick, I forgot to ask if you are an all-electric airplane and if > you plan a second alternator. IF you plan at least an SD-8 on > the vacuum pump pad, then the e-bus can be planned for a larger > continuous load than you would for battery only. > > With the SD-8, you could power the EFIS from the e-bus. The > alternate feed wire/fuse goes up to 14AWG/15A > > Even with the earlier suggestion of 16AWG/10A, or the SD-8 > supported 14AWG/15A combination, consider adding an S704-1 > relay or equal to the system to control the e-bus alternate > feed path from the battery bus end . . . sort of a mini-battery > contactor. > > As a rule of thumb, we try to avoid always-hot feeders breakered > at more than 5A . . . since fuses are so much faster, we could > stretch that to 7A which will supply most folks e-bus with a > reasonably sized, always-hot wire from battery bus. > > It's a good idea to provide a disconnect right at the battery > bus for alternate feeds larger than 7A. > > I published a drawing of this some months ago for someone but > until my server gets back up, I can't point you to it. Will > follow up on this later today. > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 12:37:55 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: noise from a stereo, Altrak altitude hold --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 02:57 PM 9/4/2003 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: mstewart@qa.butler.com > >Anxiously awaiting my book which I ordered mid last week. >And I will do my homework as soon as I get it. >Thanks > >Mike Stewart A big stack of books went out Tuesday. I'm pretty sure that caught up all the orders. Yours should have been in that stack. In the mean time, you might want to fabricate a 12v dry battery from a couple of cheapie 6v lantern batteries from Wallmart (you can often buy a lantern AND battery for less than the cost of a battery alone). A stand-alone, super-clean source of power is very handy in helping isolate noise propagation pathways on the bus. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 12:49:18 PM PST US From: Sigma Eta Aero Subject: AeroElectric-List: less expensive power supply with Aeroflash heads --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Sigma Eta Aero Just got off the phone with Nova's tech guy and he pulled up the Aeroflash strobe specs and indeed the 90 watt X-Pac looks like it's a little hot for these. Called Strobes-N-More and it sounds like the best bang for the buck here is their EPS-40X Series which has the nice adjustable patterns and should fire up the 10 joules just fine. About right if you don't need the blinding Whelans. Plus you can choose from lots of neato strobe patterns :) It has an output energy of 34 joules. I assume that the FAA reqs means 20 joules *total* between the two strobes, right? That's the way the Aeroflashes get away with double 10 jouled ones?? All said and done it's about $305 for this setup which is a lot nicer than $772 for the Whelans and $430 for the Aeroflashes (with their supply). Don't want to get caught in the TANSTAAFL so what am I missing here? Thanks. Joa --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 01:18:30 PM PST US From: "Bob Kuc" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: tri-positon switch location --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bob Kuc" > >I am looking for a tri-position switch. A left/right/push type switch that > >is momentary. Anyone have any links on where to find it? I looked in the > >digi-key catalogue and could not find one there. Also, does anyone have a > >good link to an 8x1 lcd display? > > I presume you're describing an (on)-off-(on) offered by > B&C as their S700-2-7 at: Not really, while it has a (on)-off-(on), it would also to have a push for an (on). it is a knob compared to a toggle switch. In the digi-key catalog there is something similar digi-key part# 401-1264-1-nd I would like to replace two switches with this one, one would be the s700-2-7 and athe other is a single (on)-off switch. Bob --- ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 01:46:50 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: site back up . . . From: "Lockamy, Jack L NA" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Lockamy, Jack L NA" Bob, I (and assume a lot of others....) would be more than willing to make a small donation to support your costs to keep all your data/info on an online server. The convenience of having the files avail online sure beats loading a CD. The service you provide here is unbelievable! THANK YOU! I learn something new each and every day I read the AeroElectric List..... Jack Lockamy Camarillo, CA DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 02:04:05 PM PST US From: "Bill Hibbing" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: aeroflash strobes with Nova X-Pac 904 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Hibbing" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sigma Eta Aero" Subject: AeroElectric-List: aeroflash strobes with Nova X-Pac 904 This supply reduces output power when only two outlets are activated. Does this mean it actually delivers less than the 45 watts per head??? > I talked to the folks at Nova and this is true. They told me if I was only using two flash tubes that the XPac 604 would be a better choice as it does not reduce power when only 2 tubes are used. Don't know if the aeroflash tubes will stand the extra power but the Whelen tubes will, or at least should. Use the money saved by using the XPac 604 to buy the Whelen tubes. Bill Glasair SIIS-FT ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 02:54:15 PM PST US From: "LarryRobertHelming" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: less expensive power supply with Aeroflash heads --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" If you are missing anything, I am too. That's the way I went. The only possible down side I can see is the strobes from strobes-n-more do not come with a glass lens or metal mounting frame. In my case, since they are going under a covered wingtip end, I am willing to give them some use and save a few hundred for goodies in the panel. I also like the idea of getting two extra tubes with cables and extra connectors. A very good deal I think. As I see it, the two level of power switch (also included with my harness set) also lets you run them on lower power and may never have to replace the tubes. I also like the various patterns that can be selected. Indiana Larry, RV7 Tip-up TMX-O-360 ACS2002 Dynon CNS430 Digitrak On Finish Kit and beyond do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sigma Eta Aero" Subject: AeroElectric-List: less expensive power supply with Aeroflash heads > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Sigma Eta Aero > > Just got off the phone with Nova's tech guy and he pulled up the Aeroflash strobe specs and indeed the 90 watt X-Pac looks like it's a little hot for these. > > Called Strobes-N-More and it sounds like the best bang for the buck here is their EPS-40X Series which has the nice adjustable patterns and should fire up the 10 joules just fine. About right if you don't need the blinding Whelans. Plus you can choose from lots of neato strobe patterns :) > > It has an output energy of 34 joules. I assume that the FAA reqs means 20 joules *total* between the two strobes, right? That's the way the Aeroflashes get away with double 10 jouled ones?? > > All said and done it's about $305 for this setup which is a lot nicer than $772 for the Whelans and $430 for the Aeroflashes (with their supply). > > Don't want to get caught in the TANSTAAFL so what am I missing here? > > Thanks. > > Joa > > > --------------------------------- > > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 02:57:29 PM PST US From: Sigma Eta Aero Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: less expensive power supply with Aeroflash heads --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Sigma Eta Aero Ok, spank me. I looked back through the archives again and noticed this time that it seems like 20 joules *per flash* is the req. Still, it would take a pretty picky inspector to look at a set of Aeroflashes strobe/nav/pos lights and not sign the plane off for night VFR. Plus you could honestly tell the inspector that the system is putting out over 20 joules (both wings). Joa ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Called Strobes-N-More and it sounds like the best bang for the buck here is their EPS-40X Series which has the nice adjustable patterns and should fire up the 10 joules just fine. About right if you don't need the blinding Whelans. Plus you can choose from lots of neato strobe patterns :) It has an output energy of 34 joules. I assume that the FAA reqs means 20 joules *total* between the two strobes, right? That's the way the Aeroflashes get away with double 10 jouled ones?? --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 03:27:52 PM PST US From: EddyFernan@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: MAC elevator trim rocker switch --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: EddyFernan@aol.com Bob & list, Just wondering if anyone out there flying with the MAC trim have ever had a problem with the elevator switch sticking and going full up or down. One scenario might be that you are setting up for cruise flight and while trimming the plane for level flight the trim switch goes to full down position. Or is this a very remote possibility? I'm using Z-11 architecture and B & C's toggles for everything except the elevator trim so that I have a different feel to the switch compared to the flaps for instance. What would be a precaution for this? Eddy Fernandez RV-9a Wiring & more wiring ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 05:19:54 PM PST US From: Tom Brusehaver Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: less expensive power supply with Aeroflash heads --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Tom Brusehaver What I have done is bought the whelen wingtip units from Chief Aircraft on their specials page ($299/pr) http://www.chiefaircraft.com/cgi-bin/hazel.cgi?action=serve&item=/Aircraft/Aircraft.html then I went on e-bay and bought a Whelen CPS-660 supply ($89). http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3624617484&category=395 That put my strobes at $388 plus shipping. This gets me an all Whelen setup. I didn't get the CPS690, since it uses 7Amps, where the 660 only needs 4amps. I don't remember the Joules, but it was the same or more than the Whelen aircraft supply. Sigma Eta Aero wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Sigma Eta Aero > > Just got off the phone with Nova's tech guy and he pulled up the Aeroflash strobe specs and indeed the 90 watt X-Pac looks like it's a little hot for these. > > Called Strobes-N-More and it sounds like the best bang for the buck here is their EPS-40X Series which has the nice adjustable patterns and should fire up the 10 joules just fine. About right if you don't need the blinding Whelans. Plus you can choose from lots of neato strobe patterns :) > > It has an output energy of 34 joules. I assume that the FAA reqs means 20 joules *total* between the two strobes, right? That's the way the Aeroflashes get away with double 10 jouled ones?? > > All said and done it's about $305 for this setup which is a lot nicer than $772 for the Whelans and $430 for the Aeroflashes (with their supply). > > Don't want to get caught in the TANSTAAFL so what am I missing here? > > Thanks. ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 06:11:17 PM PST US From: "Duncan McBride" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Rotax 912 and ACS ignition switch --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Duncan McBride" Is the ACS switch grounded to its own housing? I mean, is the ground connector on the back of the switch continuous with the housing, and thereby connected to the panel the switch is installed in? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Rotax 912 and ACS ignition switch > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > At 10:37 AM 9/2/2003 -0700, you wrote: > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Sigma Eta Aero > > > > > >For wiring a Rotax 912 with the ACS A-510-2 switch (Page 381 in Spruce > >catalog) do any of the terminals have to be jumpered (IOW is either of the > >magnetos a retard breaker or have impulse coupling type features)? > > > > > >Also, I assume that you would run the shielding from both mags to the > >ground terminal (term 5) and then NOT run a ground from this to the > >firewall grounding block (but ground each cable shield individually at the > >ignition block), right? > > Yes, wire exactly as shown in Figure Z-16 > > > >The only thing that cornfuses me about this single point grounding > >technique is that when the engine is running the mags are ungrounded > >anyway so why does it make a difference? > > Single point grounding for noise control > is not related to ignition control. You want > to use the shields as ground for the switch and > ground shields at the engine end only. > > > >Also, I assume I should use the diode supplied with the ACS switch (when > >wiring per Z-16)? > > No, the reasoning behind that diode is bogus. > See http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/spikecatcher.pdf > > Put a diode across your contactor coil if it's not already > there. The diode supplied with the switch will be fine. > Adding it across the switch per ACS instructions adds > no value. > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 06:20:00 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: MAC elevator trim rocker switch --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 06:23 PM 9/4/2003 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: EddyFernan@aol.com > >Bob & list, > >Just wondering if anyone out there flying with the MAC trim have ever had a >problem with the elevator switch sticking and going full up or down. Yes, and I know of a Kitfox that got totaled on takeoff due to the MAC rocker sticking. Seems the plastic rocker was not well centered in the housing. >One scenario might be that you are setting up for cruise flight and while >trimming the plane for level flight the trim switch goes to full down >position. > >Or is this a very remote possibility? I'm using Z-11 architecture and B & >C's toggles for everything except the elevator trim so that I have a >different >feel to the switch compared to the flaps for instance. > >What would be a precaution for this? First, during flight testing make sure that there are mechanical limits to trim authority that will keep trim from exerting more authority than necessary. Then, experiment to see how far out of trim you can still handle the airplane. Can you deal competently with a trim-in-limits condition? Bizjets often use two switches on electric trim. Both switches have to be activated (usually a trim enable + trim direction) for the trim to move. This isn't something you need to deal with right away. Get the airplane flying first. Make the establishment of hard mechanical stops a priority for flight testing. Then do some tests at altitude to see how the airplane handles should the trim actuator run to either stop. Make some flights where you trim for cruise at aft cg and then land the airplane without changing the trim. Make a measurement of trim mechanism position. Then see how much further it will go into nose down position. That EXTRA movement is the operationally useless and dangerous part. Do the same thing after trimming for approach speed with max forward CG. Then see how much excess motion you have in the nose up direction. Design mechanical stops to physically prevent motion beyond the necessary and useful extremes. This will probably take care of all your worries about trim runaway. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 06:57:11 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Wire and Fuse Size for E-bus (follow up) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 03:34 PM 9/4/2003 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dick Jordan" > >Bob, > I'm building an all electric airplane using single battery, dual >alternator per your Z-12. The Aux alternator is 20 AMPS. Okay, if your standby alternator is that big, why not eliminate the e-bus? Z-14 with a small battery for the second alternator lets you take advantage of he fully stand-alone systems with very little weight penalty over Z-12. Further, I presume your EFIS is one of those products not designed to live in the read world and needs it's own battery support during engine cranking anyhow. See the EFIS/FADEC version of z-14 at http://216.55.140.222/temp/z14_FADEC.pdf This version does not automatically close the cross-feed contactor for cranking but still allows a healthy cross-feed capability during alternator out operations. Put all your ugly, no-value-added en route loads on the main bus and panel goodies on the aux bus. E-bus goes away along with all attendant concerns for always-hot feedpaths, diode heatsinks, etc. The whole idea behind the e-bus was a step up for single-alternator/single-battery systems to avoid becoming a star performer in one of those dark-n-stormy-night stories. Given that your second alternator is so robust, Z-14 is the best option even if the aux battery is a small one. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 06:57:45 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Wire and Fuse Size for E-bus (follow up) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 03:34 PM 9/4/2003 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dick Jordan" > >Bob, > I'm building an all electric airplane using single battery, dual >alternator per your Z-12. The Aux alternator is 20 AMPS. Okay, if your standby alternator is that big, why not eliminate the e-bus? Z-14 with a small battery for the second alternator lets you take advantage of he fully stand-alone systems with very little weight penalty over Z-12. Further, I presume your EFIS is one of those products not designed to live in the read world and needs it's own battery support during engine cranking anyhow. See the EFIS/FADEC version of z-14 at http://216.55.140.222/temp/z14_FADEC.pdf This version does not automatically close the cross-feed contactor for cranking but still allows a healthy cross-feed capability during alternator out operations. Put all your ugly, no-value-added en route loads on the main bus and panel goodies on the aux bus. E-bus goes away along with all attendant concerns for always-hot feedpaths, diode heatsinks, etc. The whole idea behind the e-bus was a simple step-up for single-alternator/single-battery systems to avoid becoming a star performer in one of those dark-n-stormy-night stories. Given that your second alternator is so robust, Z-14 is the best option even if the aux battery is a small one. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 06:58:57 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: tri-positon switch location --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 04:13 PM 9/4/2003 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bob Kuc" > > > > >I am looking for a tri-position switch. A left/right/push type switch >that > > >is momentary. Anyone have any links on where to find it? I looked in >the > > >digi-key catalogue and could not find one there. Also, does anyone have >a > > >good link to an 8x1 lcd display? > > > > I presume you're describing an (on)-off-(on) offered by > > B&C as their S700-2-7 at: >Not really, while it has a (on)-off-(on), it would also to have a push for >an (on). it is a knob compared to a toggle switch. In the digi-key catalog >there is something similar digi-key part# 401-1264-1-nd I would like to >replace two switches with this one, one would be the s700-2-7 and athe >other is a single (on)-off switch. That's a pretty cheezy switch for the cockpit environment. What are you wanting to control with it? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 07:20:37 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: : MAC elevator trim rocker switch From: Denis Walsh --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Denis Walsh This question comes up a lot, and is a very valid question to ask IMHO. I have had no problems with the switch sticking (1225 hrs) even though I have it mounted between the seats where it collects a lot of debris and gets jarred. I believe the situation you describe could be easily controlled by slowing down and countering with stick force. I can't say for sure as it is difficult to duplicate the circumstance in flight and properly allow for the muddled factor. It is also possible the trim motor could be stopped by applying up trim, (which would add plus volts to the other wire?). Notwithstanding this I did eventually install a pullable circuit breaker for the elevator trim. It is a protruding thing a little different than the other CBs in my row and easy to grab with either hand. Also I highly recommend using Matronics speed controller which allows you to have as many different switches as you want. The utility of these is you have an alternate if a wire breaks (which I have had happen a couple times. Be sure and use AWG 22 for any wire runs subject to motion.) I can vouch for the controllability of taking off with full nose down and full nose up. This is not a difficult flight test, and in both cases the delay factor was real due to the inadvertent nature of the test. Good luck and hope this helps. Denis Homecoming was a great trip. I left before the banquet so can't comment on that, but the other meal gatherings were great, and well conducted. > From: EddyFernan@aol.com > Reply-To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 18:23:39 EDT > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: MAC elevator trim rocker switch > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: EddyFernan@aol.com > > Bob & list, > > Just wondering if anyone out there flying with the MAC trim have ever had a > problem with the elevator switch sticking and going full up or down. > > One scenario might be that you are setting up for cruise flight and while > trimming the plane for level flight the trim switch goes to full down > position. > > Or is this a very remote possibility? I'm using Z-11 architecture and B & > C's toggles for everything except the elevator trim so that I have a different > feel to the switch compared to the flaps for instance. > > What would be a precaution for this? > > Eddy Fernandez > RV-9a > Wiring & more wiring > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 08:01:34 PM PST US From: "Bob Kuc" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: tri-positon switch location --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bob Kuc" > > > >I am looking for a tri-position switch. A left/right/push type switch > >that > > > >is momentary. Anyone have any links on where to find it? I looked in > >the > > > >digi-key catalogue and could not find one there. Also, does anyone have > >a > > > >good link to an 8x1 lcd display? > > > > > > I presume you're describing an (on)-off-(on) offered by > > > B&C as their S700-2-7 at: > >Not really, while it has a (on)-off-(on), it would also to have a push for > >an (on). it is a knob compared to a toggle switch. In the digi-key catalog > >there is something similar digi-key part# 401-1264-1-nd I would like to > >replace two switches with this one, one would be the s700-2-7 and athe > >other is a single (on)-off switch. > > That's a pretty cheezy switch for the cockpit environment. > What are you wanting to control with it? > That is why I am looking for a better one than that found in digi-key. The ideal switch would be like the one that is on the ASA flight timer. In fact, with my micro processor, I have built one like the ASA Flight timer that has clocks , timers, volts, amps along with a network built-in . This with other units will talk to a central microprocessor for data storage ala black box type. Bob So the ideal switch would be a left/right to set parameters and push to set type function. --- ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 08:51:42 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Wire and Fuse Size for E-bus (follow up) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 03:34 PM 9/4/2003 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dick Jordan" > >Bob, > I'm building an all electric airplane using single battery, dual >alternator per your Z-12. The Aux alternator is 20 AMPS. Okay, if your standby alternator is that big, why not eliminate the e-bus? Z-14 with a small battery for the second alternator lets you take advantage of he fully stand-alone systems with very little weight penalty over Z-12. Further, I presume your EFIS is one of those products not designed to live in the read world and needs it's own battery support during engine cranking anyhow. See the EFIS/FADEC version of z-14 at http://216.55.140.222/temp/z14_FADEC.pdf This version does not automatically close the cross-feed contactor for cranking but still allows a healthy cross-feed capability during alternator out operations. Put all your ugly, no-value-added en route loads on the main bus and panel goodies on the aux bus. E-bus goes away along with all attendant concerns for always-hot feedpaths, diode heatsinks, etc. The whole idea behind the e-bus was a step up for single-alternator/single-battery systems to avoid becoming a star performer in one of those dark-n-stormy-night stories. Given that your second alternator is so robust, Z-14 is the best option even if the aux battery is a small one. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 08:53:37 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Rotax 912 and ACS ignition switch --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 09:19 PM 9/4/2003 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Duncan McBride" > > >Is the ACS switch grounded to its own housing? I mean, is the ground >connector on the back of the switch continuous with the housing, and thereby >connected to the panel the switch is installed in? That's an easy thing to check with an ohmmeter . . . but the last time I looked at one, all contacts were isolated from case which is as it should be . . . Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 09:02:54 PM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: tri-positon switch location From: "Robinson, Chad" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robinson, Chad" > So the ideal switch would be a left/right to set parameters > and push to set type function. Sounds like a job for a rotary encoder. That what most of these devices use, and most encoders have a momentary pushbutton. Regards, Chad ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 10:00:12 PM PST US From: Brian Reiter Subject: AeroElectric-List: Antenna Placement --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Reiter Im sure this has been talked about before but I cant find what Im looking for in the archives. On an RV how far apart should my antennas be. Im looking at 2 Comm Antennas under seats & Nav Antenna under horizontal stabilizer. Can my marker beacon ant. be close to the comm antennas? I'd like to put it between them under the seats. How far does the Transponder antenna need to be from others? Thanks in advance Brian ---------------------------------