Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:08 AM - Re: Little recognition lights (Christopher J Fortin)
2. 04:25 AM - Alternator loads/batteries (N823ms@aol.com)
3. 05:05 AM - Re: Ground Strap Location? (Joe Dubner)
4. 05:21 AM - Handheld Radios (willfly)
5. 06:23 AM - Re: Re: Ground Strap Location? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 06:24 AM - Re: Test Adapter (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 06:43 AM - Re: Alternator loads/batteries (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
8. 06:49 AM - Re: Essential Bus in a Dual Battery System (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 07:00 AM - Re: OV Module question for Bob (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
10. 08:13 AM - Re: Handheld Radios (David Chalmers)
11. 08:18 AM - Re: Handheld Radios (Bill Hibbing)
12. 09:05 AM - Re: Battery Drain (Ross Mickey)
13. 09:26 AM - (David E. Nelson)
14. 09:32 AM - Re: Handheld Radios (George Bass)
15. 10:40 AM - SSF-1 (Ken Simmons)
16. 11:17 AM - Re: Essential Bus in a Dual Battery System (kc)
17. 02:01 PM - Re: Re: Ground Strap Location? (Jim Oke)
18. 04:34 PM - Thanks for the explanation (N823ms@aol.com)
19. 04:40 PM - Re: Handheld Radios (Alex Peterson)
20. 07:59 PM - Re: DC power panel minutia (David Carter)
21. 08:46 PM - Re: Handheld Radios (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
22. 08:46 PM - Re: SSF-1 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
23. 08:57 PM - Re: Essential Bus in a Dual Battery System (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
24. 09:06 PM - Re: Thanks for the explanation (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
25. 10:09 PM - Re: Re: Ground Strap Location? (Werner Schneider)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Little recognition lights |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Christopher J Fortin <cjfortin@juno.com>
Hi Keith,
We use these at work for the MR16 lamps. Saves you from having to build
a fixture.
http://www.vanltg.com/buhl/qlv-1.htm
Chris
>
>Keith,
>Try Allelectronics for both MR16 bulbs and the QRX-4 base for $1.25.
The MR11
>socket is harder to find, and there are not nearly as many choices for
wattage
>and beam width. I'm using MR16s in my J400, making the fixture out of
thin aluminum
>with this lamp.
>http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category320400&typest
ore is the URL for the catalog page.
>Jim Foerster
Message 2
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| Subject: | Alternator loads/batteries |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: N823ms@aol.com
Bob:
Its been awhile, but I am still here trying to get this project done. In
regard to bus loads, it has never been mentioned about just where the
alternators come on. I am doing the Z-14 in a Lancair ES, dual alt/bat. Talking
to B&C
this past S&F, I found out that using my B&C 20 amp alternator won't come on
line until about 1600 RPM. I thought this was kind of high, until I found out
that the vacuum pad drive is about half of the engine RPM, i.e., in the case
of my IO-520 "D," the engine idles at 600 RPM, so the drive pad is at 300 RPM.
I believe this has to do with something about the mags. Knowing this, when
does the main alternator come on line providing the main source of power to the
bus? I see now that the biggest load demand would be the taxi out. T/O, App,
and cruise will be in RPM ranges where the 60/20 amp alternators will be doing
most of the work vise the two batteries. I suppose my knowledge of car
alternators where at a low RPM, the alternator is giving you some support vise
running
completely on the battery. Concerning a true dual split bus system as in the
Z-14, would it not be better to have two 60amp alternators? One alternator in
the rear driven by a belt as I have now and a belt driven front alternator off
the prop? That way you could cross-tie one bus to power the other fully
should one fail, the little stby 20amp vacuum alternator could then just power
a
small emergency bus. Is this an over kill?
Regards,
Ed Silvanic
N823MS@aol.com
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Ground Strap Location? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Joe Dubner <jdubner@yahoo.com>
Thanks, Bob. I already have a good firewall penetration and heavy
ground conductor forward to the battery but need to know where the
Lycoming-approved point for connection to the engine case is. It's a
Lyc O-235. I suspect it's one of the case bolts along the top. Anyone
with a Lycoming manual know for sure?
Thanks,
Joe
Long-EZ 821RP
Clarkston, WA
> Time: 08:32:32 PM PST US
> From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ground Strap Location?
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
> At 06:48 AM 9/10/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Joe Dubner <jdubner@yahoo.com>
>>
>>B&C sells a braided bonding strap. The description of it states:
>>
>>". . . Engine mounts should not be part of the electrical circuitry for
>>the engine; these bonding straps establish the appropriate pathway for
>>starter and alternator currents to the airframe. . . ."
>>
>>(I have to take that with a grain of salt as my airplane is a Long-EZ,
>>so routing "starter and alternator currents to the airframe" is futile.
>> But they do need to route to the battery of course.)
>>
>>If not an engine mount bolt, where specifically should the engine ground
>>strap connection be made. I'm particularly interested in the proper
>>location(s) for my Lycoming O-235 as it currently uses an engine mount
>>bolt.
>
> DC power ground should come through your firewall on a
> 5/16" (min) or 3/8" (better) brass bolt. This bolt may or
> may not be associated with a firewall ground bus as illustrated
> in http://www.bandc.biz/GroundBlock.html
>
> The bonding strap should run from some bolt on the crankcase
> to the firewall penetration stud . . . others on the list
> can advise you of where they found suitable bolts on or near
> the rear of their Lycoming engines.
>
> A #2 ground wire continues forward from that bolt to a panel
> ground bus and from there on forward to the battery (-) terminal.
> See view -B- of
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Appendix_Z_Drawings/z15ak.pdf
>
> Bob . . .
Message 4
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "willfly" <willfly@carolina.rr.com>
Does anyone have any experience with the hand held SP-200 NAV/COM from Sporty's?
Looks like it may do the same job as the ICOM but with a LOC function.
Thanks
Steve Glasgow
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Ground Strap Location? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 05:05 AM 9/11/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Joe Dubner <jdubner@yahoo.com>
>
>Thanks, Bob. I already have a good firewall penetration and heavy
>ground conductor forward to the battery but need to know where the
>Lycoming-approved point for connection to the engine case is. It's a
>Lyc O-235. I suspect it's one of the case bolts along the top. Anyone
>with a Lycoming manual know for sure?
Lycoming won't have an "approved" ground point. They're
engine guys . . . the fact that their engines have starters
and alternators attache to them is a necessary feature
but incidental to their expertise.
Bob . . .
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Test Adapter |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 10:22 PM 9/10/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rick Fogerson" <rickf@cableone.net>
>
>I just noticed the resistor I bought was 1k ohm which I'm now thinking
>probably means 1000 ohms. If that is true then is 1000 ohm, 1 watt resistor
>okay instead of the one on the note 8 which has a 1k ohm, 1/2 watt resistor?
sure . . . that's great.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator loads/batteries |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 07:21 AM 9/11/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: N823ms@aol.com
>
>Bob:
>
> Its been awhile, but I am still here trying to get this project done. In
>regard to bus loads, it has never been mentioned about just where the
>alternators come on. I am doing the Z-14 in a Lancair ES, dual alt/bat.
>Talking to B&C
>this past S&F, I found out that using my B&C 20 amp alternator won't come on
>line until about 1600 RPM. I thought this was kind of high, until I found out
>that the vacuum pad drive is about half of the engine RPM, i.e., in the case
>of my IO-520 "D," the engine idles at 600 RPM, so the drive pad is at 300
>RPM.
Not so. Depending on your engine brand and model, vacuum pump pad
runs at 1.3 to 1.5 engine speed. This gives you something on the order
of 4,000 rpm at the pad at cruise. Most automotive products won't deliver
full output at less than 6,000 rpm. The SD-8 is really a 12A machine
when belt driven and a 10A machine when gear driven off the Continental
-12 style case. The SD-20 is a 40A machine when belt driven on the
front of the engine. I think the SD-8's magnetics have matured with
age and some people are seeing 10A at cruise.
Coming "on line" simply means that the alternator has begun to shoulder
SOME system loads . . . this is the MINIMUM SPEED FOR REGULATION and
is a good number to know but to pick up any significant loads, you'll
need more RPM yet.
Figure z-14 allows for closing the cross-feed contactor after pre-flight
and before take-off to allow the belt-driven machine to keep all the busses
happy. If you've left the stock, small pulley on a B&C alternator,
it will give you plenty of snort to run the whole airplane at
taxi speeds. With low voltage warning on the panel, you even have a
reminder to close the cross-feed switch during taxi if loads
on the aux bus are too great for the smaller alternator to pick up
the loads.
>I believe this has to do with something about the mags. Knowing this, when
>does the main alternator come on line providing the main source of power
>to the
>bus? I see now that the biggest load demand would be the taxi out. T/O, App,
>and cruise will be in RPM ranges where the 60/20 amp alternators will be
>doing
>most of the work vise the two batteries. I suppose my knowledge of car
>alternators where at a low RPM, the alternator is giving you some support
>vise running
>completely on the battery. Concerning a true dual split bus system as in the
>Z-14, would it not be better to have two 60amp alternators?
Depends on what you call "better" . . . If your concerns are for
the temporary conditions of ground taxi, what is the value of adding
lots of dead weight to cover 1 few percent of total operating time
when the manipulation of some pilot accessible controls will
mitigate the problem.
> One alternator in
>the rear driven by a belt as I have now and a belt driven front alternator
>off
>the prop? That way you could cross-tie one bus to power the other fully
>should one fail, the little stby 20amp vacuum alternator could then just
>power a
>small emergency bus. Is this an over kill?
Won't know until you do an accurate load analysis that
determines what equipment really has to run to make the
outcome of your flight a comfortable effort. The
foundation for your comfort comes from good data beginning
with how the alternators really perform under various phases
of flight operation, knowing what each of your planned
accessories needs under various phases of flight, and
then crafting your pilot's operating handbook to work
comfortably within what ever power budgets you have for
each anticipated condition.
Yes, you CAN put dual 60A alternators and even dual
24 or 32 a.h. batteries on board. The FAA would love it
if every certified single had such a system . . . wow,
100% redundancy for every contingency . . . without
regard to how knowledgeable builder/pilots and elegant
designs can do just as well with much less. Perhaps better -
less brute force redundancy translates to greater payload.
Bob . . .
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Essential Bus in a Dual Battery System |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 04:25 PM 9/9/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "kc" <samdacat@elp.rr.com>
>
>??Where is the Essential Bus connected in the Dual Battery/Single
>Alternator system, Z28/Z30?? My initial assumption was to the Main
>Battery Bus.
>
>My load charts indicate the following: Battery Bus - 2.1 amps
> Aux
> Battery Bus - 2.6 amps
>
>Essential Bus - 5.0 amps
>
>The electrical system plan is for two 17AH batteries. The total system
>looks reasonable with a capacity of 34AH and a load with the main bus
>disconnected of 9.6 amps. But when you look at the two battery design
>what you have with the main bus disconnected is the Aux battery supplying
>a load of 2.6 amps and the Main battery with a load of 7.1 amps which will
>reduce the alternator out range dramatically.
>
>I have discounted the option of simply tying the two batteries together or
>using a single battery because that would eliminate the separate feeds for
>the dual electronic ignition and electric fuel pumps.
Depends on your accessory details. If you have any devices in the
airplane that are not designed to live in the real world (EFIS,
FADEC or anything else that goes to la-la land during cranking)
then you might want to run these devices from a aux battery bus
and/or e-bus that runs from the aux battery and use only main
battery for cranking.
What goodies do you have running ruing alternator-out operations?
Bob . . .
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: OV Module question for Bob |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
>Bob,
>
>When the time comes to fire our Rotax engine I'm concerned by the
>possiblility of similar OV nuisance trips of our B&C module.
>Our panel is already painted and equipped, and for space reasons we won't be
>able to install a 2-10 switch in place of the present 2-3.
>Just in case, do you think we could modify or buy a new OV module with a
>big MOS-FET in the near future ?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Gilles
What's preventing you from putting in a 2-10? They're
exactly the same size and wire up the same way. I don't
see that it's a grinding "requirement " to label the
mid position and the existing labels are true and
correct for the extreme positions.
If your field breaker is pullable, you can also
write procedures to pull the breaker at shutdown
and push it back in after start-up and leave your
existing switch in place. I wouldn't guarantee
that a crowbar ov module with any different SCR
would solve the problem. Over the years, I've had
about 1 to 2% of builders experience nuisance trips
for various conditions on airplanes that were essentially
Without mounting a science project with government
sized budget support to ferret out root-causes,
I've had to dampen my desire understand all the
variables. If suggested workarounds are untenable
for you, perhaps a more conventional OV relay product
is better suited to your needs.
Bob . . .
Message 10
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Chalmers" <David@ChalmersFamily.com>
I have a Sporty's handheld I ordered about a year ago. I also have a King KX-99
and ICOM-A5. The Sporty works but the quality is not the same as the King or
ICOM. The case is more flimsy and there seems to be more noise when receiving
(sounds like digital noise from the internals). It is much cheaper though.
Just my 2 cents.
Dave Chalmers
-----Original Message-----
From: willfly [mailto:willfly@carolina.rr.com]
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Handheld Radios
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "willfly" <willfly@carolina.rr.com>
Does anyone have any experience with the hand held SP-200 NAV/COM from Sporty's?
Looks like it may do the same job as the ICOM but with a LOC function.
Thanks
Steve Glasgow
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Handheld Radios |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Hibbing" <n744bh@bellsouth.net>
Steve,
Before you buy anything be sure to check the Vertex (Yaesu) and the Icom for
what accessories are included. I like to support Sporty's as much as I can
but when you see how much extra you have to pay for things like a nicad pack
and charger that are already included with the Vertex and Icom, the Sporty's
radio becomes a poor value. Hope this helps.
Bill
Glasair
> Does anyone have any experience with the hand held SP-200 NAV/COM from
Sporty's? Looks like it may do the same job as the ICOM but with a LOC
function.
>
> Thanks
>
> Steve Glasgow
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Battery Drain |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ross Mickey" <rmickey@ix.netcom.com>
Thank you all so much. I knew there was a way to do this. As you can
tell, I am not a master of the multi-meter yet.
Some responses to the posts:
Yes, the Electronic ignition and cabin lights are on switches and are
therefore not "always hot." They are on my always hot bus thus not
requiring the master switch to be thrown.
The trickle charger cable is actually not on the hot bus but is directly
attached to the battery with an in-line fuse. It has a fancy connector to
attach the cable to the trickle charger. This attachment came with my
trickle charger and is handy for plugging it in.
The battery is a 17 amp hawker about 9 months old.
Thanks again.....off to track down the culprit!!!
Ross Mickey
N9PT
Still at the painters
Message 13
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David E. Nelson" <david.nelson@pobox.com>
Hi Steve,
I went through the same thing back in Jul/Aug. Below is my response.
Regards,
/\/elson
> Hi All,
>
> Just wanted to pass on a "Thanks" for your responses. Y'all gave me some
> things to think about and choices to look into and I've settled on an Icom
> A5.
>
> So, why the A5?
>
> - Small and compact - it's small and light to begin with but as you add
> accessories, it doesn't get big-n-bulky.
>
> - Everything is backlighted - unlike the Vertex/Yeasu Aviator which
> apparently doesn't backlight the keypad.
>
> - Pireps of "forego the NAV" greatly outnumbered "invest in the NAV" in the
> newsgroups. Also, apparently, the NAV reception is fair at best while using
> the default antenna w/ any of the handheld NAV/COM's.
>
> - On the "NAV" - better to go with a portable GPS - more info, better
> coverage
>
> - Mixed reviews of the Sporty's
>
> - Icom was offering a $30 mail-in rebate
>
> - Got the A5 for $276.55 including tax, and S+H and a free alkaline battery
> pack from "Mikes Aircraft" - so with the rebate $246.55.
>
> - Comes with Ni-MH which doesn't suffer from the "memory effect".
>
> - Antenna is attached with a BNC connector - no need for adaptor (Sporty's)
>
> - Good pireps of the A5
>
> - Icom is a name I've known since my "intro to ham" days as a kid - the maker
> of the Sporty's apparently isn't known.
>
> - NOAA freq's built in - I can see this being used for other purposes.
>
> Thanks again,
> /\/elson
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Handheld Radios |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "George Bass" <George_Bass_0@hotmail.com>
About 2 years ago, I purchased my handheld radio
(a JHP-520 w/ LOC) from a dealer on eBay. The
total cost, including shipping & handling, was less
than any other that I could find at the time ($250).
I've used it regularly for both GA and UL flights
and have had no difficulties with it. The quality of
both the equipment & audio has been acceptable too.
Comments that I've received from fellow pilots, on
the receiving end, have also been good. The unit I
got came with a cigarette lighter socket power cord
AND a wall charger for the home.
Although several of my flights have been over a
couple of hours, the longest continual use was a one
of our club open house/fly-in's. I had been awarded
the honor of "Acting FBO" and given responsibility
for the traffic, both ground and air, at the airfield.
This activity lasted for nearly eight (8) hours and
I never gave the radio a second thought. Worked
perfectly. Guess that's all I could ask for.
Hope this helps,
George
---
Message 15
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ken Simmons" <ken@truckstop.com>
Bob,
I saw a post from you back in May stating this flasher was a timer driving a relay.
The wig wag pdf has a note that says both outputs of the SSF-1 have to be
loaded for it to work properly. These two statements seem to conflict. Can you
please clarify?
I really like the two switch circuit you recently added to the pdf so I wanted
to get this clarified. If the SSF-1 has to be loaded on both outputs, flash capability
is lost if you lose a bulb. This makes since on the thermal flashers.
Thanks.
Ken
The Internet Truckstop
The first and largest
freight matching
service on the
Intenet
______________ ______________ ______________ ______________
Sent via the KillerWebMail system at truckstop.com
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Essential Bus in a Dual Battery System |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "kc" <samdacat@elp.rr.com>
The current plan is:
Aux Battery Bus
- Lightspeed Plasma III #2
- Facet Fuel Pump #2
- Dynon EFIS-D10
- Aux Battery on Light
Battery Bus
- Lightspeed Plasma III #1
- Facet Fuel Pump #1
- Hour meter
- Overhead lights
Essential Bus
- Ameri-King AK350 Encoder
- Fuel level senders, left & right
- King 76A Transponder
- King 150KFD, GPS only
- King KX125 Nav/Comm
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Essential Bus in a Dual Battery System
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
> At 04:25 PM 9/9/2003 -0600, you wrote:
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "kc" <samdacat@elp.rr.com>
> >
> >??Where is the Essential Bus connected in the Dual Battery/Single
> >Alternator system, Z28/Z30?? My initial assumption was to the Main
> >Battery Bus.
> >
> >My load charts indicate the following: Battery Bus - 2.1 amps
> > Aux
> > Battery Bus - 2.6 amps
> >
> >Essential Bus - 5.0 amps
> >
> >The electrical system plan is for two 17AH batteries. The total system
> >looks reasonable with a capacity of 34AH and a load with the main bus
> >disconnected of 9.6 amps. But when you look at the two battery design
> >what you have with the main bus disconnected is the Aux battery supplying
> >a load of 2.6 amps and the Main battery with a load of 7.1 amps which
will
> >reduce the alternator out range dramatically.
> >
> >I have discounted the option of simply tying the two batteries together
or
> >using a single battery because that would eliminate the separate feeds
for
> >the dual electronic ignition and electric fuel pumps.
>
> Depends on your accessory details. If you have any devices in the
> airplane that are not designed to live in the real world (EFIS,
> FADEC or anything else that goes to la-la land during cranking)
> then you might want to run these devices from a aux battery bus
> and/or e-bus that runs from the aux battery and use only main
> battery for cranking.
>
> What goodies do you have running ruing alternator-out operations?
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Ground Strap Location? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jim Oke <wjoke@shaw.ca>
Joe;
Some (probably not all) Lycomings have a "spare" bolt hole in a sort of
triangular web cast into the crankcase in the vicinity of the base of the
oil stick housing. This seems to be sized for an AN3 bolt and works nicely
for a ground strap installation depending on how and where you route the
ground strap. I used this point on my Aerosport O-320 but I have not seen it
in all O-320s and an O-235 may simply be different.
As Bob has said, the should be no reason not to use most any location on the
engine. A lug under one of the sump bolts is another common location.
Jim Oke
Wpg, MB
RV-6A with O-320
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Dubner" <jdubner@yahoo.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Ground Strap Location?
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Joe Dubner <jdubner@yahoo.com>
>
> Thanks, Bob. I already have a good firewall penetration and heavy
> ground conductor forward to the battery but need to know where the
> Lycoming-approved point for connection to the engine case is. It's a
> Lyc O-235. I suspect it's one of the case bolts along the top. Anyone
> with a Lycoming manual know for sure?
>
> Thanks,
> Joe
> Long-EZ 821RP
> Clarkston, WA
>
>
> > Time: 08:32:32 PM PST US
> > From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
> > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ground Strap Location?
> >
> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
> >
> > At 06:48 AM 9/10/2003 -0700, you wrote:
> >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Joe Dubner <jdubner@yahoo.com>
> >>
> >>B&C sells a braided bonding strap. The description of it states:
> >>
> >>". . . Engine mounts should not be part of the electrical circuitry for
> >>the engine; these bonding straps establish the appropriate pathway for
> >>starter and alternator currents to the airframe. . . ."
> >>
> >>(I have to take that with a grain of salt as my airplane is a Long-EZ,
> >>so routing "starter and alternator currents to the airframe" is futile.
> >> But they do need to route to the battery of course.)
> >>
> >>If not an engine mount bolt, where specifically should the engine ground
> >>strap connection be made. I'm particularly interested in the proper
> >>location(s) for my Lycoming O-235 as it currently uses an engine mount
> >>bolt.
> >
> > DC power ground should come through your firewall on a
> > 5/16" (min) or 3/8" (better) brass bolt. This bolt may or
> > may not be associated with a firewall ground bus as illustrated
> > in http://www.bandc.biz/GroundBlock.html
> >
> > The bonding strap should run from some bolt on the crankcase
> > to the firewall penetration stud . . . others on the list
> > can advise you of where they found suitable bolts on or near
> > the rear of their Lycoming engines.
> >
> > A #2 ground wire continues forward from that bolt to a panel
> > ground bus and from there on forward to the battery (-) terminal.
> > See view -B- of
> > http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Appendix_Z_Drawings/z15ak.pdf
> >
> > Bob . . .
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Thanks for the explanation |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: N823ms@aol.com
Not so. Depending on your engine brand and model, vacuum pump pad
runs at 1.3 to 1.5 engine speed. This gives you something on the order
of 4,000 rpm at the pad at cruise. Most automotive products won't deliver
full output at less than 6,000 rpm. The SD-8 is really a 12A machine
when belt driven and a 10A machine when gear driven off the Continental
-12 style case. The SD-20 is a 40A machine when belt driven on the
front of the engine. I think the SD-8's magnetics have matured with
age and some people are seeing 10A at cruise.
Bob:
Your exactly right. I should have known. It only took a day and a half to
find a TCM rep. He had mentioned the same numbers you did, 1.3, 1.5. I quess
he went the wrong way. I should have no problem then running the number two
bus with the B&C 20 amp alternator off the vacuum pad. At cruise I can run a few
extras and protect myself with some of the essentials if I loose the main
alternator.
Figure z-14 allows for closing the cross-feed contactor after pre-flight
and before take-off to allow the belt-driven machine to keep all the
busses
happy. If you've left the stock, small pulley on a B&C alternator,
it will give you plenty of snort to run the whole airplane at
taxi speeds. With low voltage warning on the panel, you even have a
reminder to close the cross-feed switch during taxi if loads
on the aux bus are too great for the smaller alternator to pick up
the loads.
I will be running a rear belt driven Ford Motorcraft alternator, use the
LR-3 controller. It is running off a pulley thats in concert with the starter.
I suppose the ratio has the 60 amp alternator turning at a good rate.
After this discussion, I believe I will just stick with the Z-14 using
the 60/20amp alternators. I just never was fully aware of the loading between
the two alternators and the two batteries. For now I will just keep it simple
and run the Z-14 as designed. I can always turnoff equipment that I don't need
during a main alt,60amp, failure, throw the crosstie on and land safely with
the 20amp alt supplying what I need. I believe this is the thought process of
the Z-14. I do agree in replacing that one battery every year. Thanks for your
time.
Regards,
Ed Silvanic
N823MS@aol.com
Message 19
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson@usjet.net>
My two cents' worth:
I had a Sporty's nav/com (vintage 1997), and although I liked its
features, the general quality was crummy. It finally died last year,
refusing to transmit even though the tx indicator lights. The battery
box was junk, and I had to rebuild it several times. It was probably
turned on a total of 5 hours.
I now have the little Icom com and so far, like it, particularly the
smallness and rechargeability. That being said, a big complaint is that
it has no battery level meter or charge indicator. I really can't
believe someone would make something today without those two features.
It doesn't even get warm when it is charging, so one has to go on faith
that it is. If another brand had similar size/features, but did have
the battery meter and charge functions, I'd go with it even if it were a
bit more.
Alex Peterson
Maple Grove, MN
RV6-A N66AP 372 hours
www.usfamily.net/web/alexpeterson
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: DC power panel minutia |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Carter" <dcarter@datarecall.net>
Bob, sorry I missed the start of this discussion - "this simple system" -
are you & D J talking about a "low voltage warning module" that B&C sells?
What would I look for on the B&C website (I just looked and didn't see
anything like you all are talking about)? Or, are you only talking about a
lamp (LED) fixture that is fed from a pin of the the LR3 external voltage
regulator?
David Carter
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: DC power panel minutia
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
> At 11:30 PM 9/9/2003 -0400, you wrote:
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dj Merrill
> ><deej@thayer.dartmouth.edu>
> >
> >On Tue, 9 Sep 2003, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> >
> > > This simple system will tell you within a few seconds that
> > > the alternator has failed while it may take some time
> > > (if ever) to catch the ammeter reading.
> > > Bob . . .
> >
> > Yes, but IMHO you should be checking both if you have
> >a lamp and a meter. Bulbs can die, and it is just good practice to
> >scan all your gauges on occasion... :-)
> That's why the lamp fixtures we ship are fitted with LEDs . .
> and when driven from the main bus, the circuit gets pre-flight
> tested when the master comes on and before the engine is started.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Handheld Radios |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 09:31 AM 9/11/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "George Bass"
><George_Bass_0@hotmail.com>
>
>About 2 years ago, I purchased my handheld radio
>(a JHP-520 w/ LOC) from a dealer on eBay. The
>total cost, including shipping & handling, was less
>than any other that I could find at the time ($250).
I've been selling this radio for a couple of years
and I own one. Used it a few times with the headset/mic
adapter with good results. I'm not sure it has
LOC (localizer) demodulation capabilities.
(book doesn't mention it but it's a typical translation
effort that has numerous minor problems)
It demodulate and display VOR. VOR ops with rubber duck are
flaky at more than 10 miles out but if you're doing
a scraping-the-bottom-of- the-barrel VOR approach, it
would probably be okay . . . those VORs tend to be
relatively close to the airport.
I have a "portable" external antenna I can tape
to the strut of a Cessna that greatly enhances
VOR and Comm performance. If I were ferrying
an otherwise radio-less airplane, I'd use the
tape-on external antenna.
I normally fly dual GPS using hand helds with
Comm transceivers being the only panel mounted
radios I bother with.
I'll tune it in to the LOC frequency next time
I'm at an airport that is so equipped and see if
it knows what to do with it. FWIW, I recommend the
alkaline battery pack for any handheld radio . . .
re-chargeable batteries are more of a variable
than I like to deal with for a radio that is supposed
to ALWAYS be available. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/AA_Bat_Test.pdf
Bob . . .
Message 22
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 11:50 AM 9/11/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ken Simmons" <ken@truckstop.com>
>
>Bob,
>
>I saw a post from you back in May stating this flasher was a timer driving
>a relay. The wig wag pdf has a note that says both outputs of the SSF-1
>have to be loaded for it to work properly. These two statements seem to
>conflict. Can you please clarify?
There has to be a lamp load on both outputs for it to flash.
If one output is disconnected or the lamp burns out, flashing
stops.
>I really like the two switch circuit you recently added to the pdf so I
>wanted to get this clarified. If the SSF-1 has to be loaded on both
>outputs, flash capability is lost if you lose a bulb. This makes since on
>the thermal flashers.
That's the way this one works too . . .
Bob . . .
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Essential Bus in a Dual Battery System |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 12:16 PM 9/11/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "kc" <samdacat@elp.rr.com>
>
>The current plan is:
>
>Aux Battery Bus
> - Lightspeed Plasma III #2
> - Facet Fuel Pump #2
> - Dynon EFIS-D10
> - Aux Battery on Light
>
>Battery Bus
> - Lightspeed Plasma III #1
> - Facet Fuel Pump #1
> - Hour meter
> - Overhead lights
Fuel pump and overhead lights are generally
not included in the endurance mode loads. Also,
if you have only one alternator and you're down
to battery only, turn off one of the ignition
systems for the en route phase. Most airplanes
get their first ignition to run along side a magneto.
Timing of the electronic ignition is so far advanced
compared to mag that the mag contributes nothing. . .
so you're cruising on one ignition.
Turn on the second ignition for approach only. Do
>Essential Bus
> - Ameri-King AK350 Encoder
> - Fuel level senders, left & right
> - King 76A Transponder
> - King 150KFD, GPS only
> - King KX125 Nav/Comm
I'm having trouble seeing how you get 5A running load
from this list of goodies on the e-bus . . . let's see
your load analysis numbers for each of those items.
Download and print
http://216.55.140.222/temp/Load_Analysis.pdf
and fill out pages for each of the busses. Can you
scan them and email? Pehaps you can do the equivalent
in Excel and just post the file. If not, just snail mail
me paper copies.
I think we're going to find that your problem is not
nearly as large as you perceive.
Do you plan to have a vacuum pump?
Bob . . .
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Thanks for the explanation |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 07:33 PM 9/11/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: N823ms@aol.com
>
> Not so. Depending on your engine brand and model, vacuum pump pad
> runs at 1.3 to 1.5 engine speed. This gives you something on the order
> of 4,000 rpm at the pad at cruise. Most automotive products won't deliver
> full output at less than 6,000 rpm. The SD-8 is really a 12A machine
> when belt driven and a 10A machine when gear driven off the Continental
> -12 style case. The SD-20 is a 40A machine when belt driven on the
> front of the engine. I think the SD-8's magnetics have matured with
> age and some people are seeing 10A at cruise.
>
>Bob:
>
> Your exactly right. I should have known. It only took a day and a
> half to
>find a TCM rep. He had mentioned the same numbers you did, 1.3, 1.5. I quess
>he went the wrong way. I should have no problem then running the number two
>bus with the B&C 20 amp alternator off the vacuum pad. At cruise I can run
>a few
>extras and protect myself with some of the essentials if I loose the main
>alternator.
What are "essentials?" . . . have you done a load analysis? See:
http://216.55.140.222/temp/Load_Analysis.pdf
>
> I will be running a rear belt driven Ford Motorcraft alternator, use the
>LR-3 controller. It is running off a pulley thats in concert with the
>starter.
>I suppose the ratio has the 60 amp alternator turning at a good rate.
I don't know about that drive pad . . . I didn't catch on that
we were talking TCM.
> After this discussion, I believe I will just stick with the Z-14 using
>the 60/20amp alternators. I just never was fully aware of the loading between
>the two alternators and the two batteries. For now I will just keep it simple
>and run the Z-14 as designed. I can always turnoff equipment that I don't
>need
>during a main alt,60amp, failure, throw the crosstie on and land safely with
>the 20amp alt supplying what I need. I believe this is the thought process of
>the Z-14. I do agree in replacing that one battery every year. Thanks for
>your
>time.
You're throwing the broad brush of "I can always turn off equipment I
don't need" ploy . . . doesn't sound like you're SURE of exactly what
you plan to run and what will be shut off during failure of either
alternator. Also, if you're carrying a pair of 17 a.h. batteries,
you've got chemical energy stored up out the waazoo . . . I'd sure
like to see you consider and publish a checklist of what to do if
(1) main alternator failure, (2) aux alternator failure for both
the cruise and approach to landing modes. It's not that we don't
believe you have redundancy and capacity to burn . . . I think it's
an excellent exercise in understanding exactly how your system is
expected to perform. With a Z-14, I don't think it's necessary to
put in a new battery every year. Do you plan to crank with both
batteries?
Bob . . .
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Ground Strap Location? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Werner Schneider" <wernerschneider@compuserve.com>
A short side note,
just make sure you clean the location where you add the strap very
toroughly, I had an engine start problem first, because I did not do it
good enough (was hard to get the backed paint from the lug).
BTW on my O-320 it was an AN-5 hole.
Kind regards
Werner
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Oke" <wjoke@shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Ground Strap Location?
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jim Oke <wjoke@shaw.ca>
>
> Joe;
>
> Some (probably not all) Lycomings have a "spare" bolt hole in a sort of
> triangular web cast into the crankcase in the vicinity of the base of the
> oil stick housing. This seems to be sized for an AN3 bolt and works nicely
> for a ground strap installation depending on how and where you route the
> ground strap. I used this point on my Aerosport O-320 but I have not seen
it
> in all O-320s and an O-235 may simply be different.
>
> As Bob has said, the should be no reason not to use most any location on
the
> engine. A lug under one of the sump bolts is another common location.
>
> Jim Oke
> Wpg, MB
> RV-6A with O-320
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joe Dubner" <jdubner@yahoo.com>
> To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Ground Strap Location?
>
>
> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Joe Dubner <jdubner@yahoo.com>
> >
> > Thanks, Bob. I already have a good firewall penetration and heavy
> > ground conductor forward to the battery but need to know where the
> > Lycoming-approved point for connection to the engine case is. It's a
> > Lyc O-235. I suspect it's one of the case bolts along the top. Anyone
> > with a Lycoming manual know for sure?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Joe
> > Long-EZ 821RP
> > Clarkston, WA
> >
> >
> > > Time: 08:32:32 PM PST US
> > > From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
> > > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ground Strap Location?
> > >
> > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
> <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
> > >
> > > At 06:48 AM 9/10/2003 -0700, you wrote:
> > >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Joe Dubner
<jdubner@yahoo.com>
> > >>
> > >>B&C sells a braided bonding strap. The description of it states:
> > >>
> > >>". . . Engine mounts should not be part of the electrical circuitry
for
> > >>the engine; these bonding straps establish the appropriate pathway for
> > >>starter and alternator currents to the airframe. . . ."
> > >>
> > >>(I have to take that with a grain of salt as my airplane is a Long-EZ,
> > >>so routing "starter and alternator currents to the airframe" is
futile.
> > >> But they do need to route to the battery of course.)
> > >>
> > >>If not an engine mount bolt, where specifically should the engine
ground
> > >>strap connection be made. I'm particularly interested in the proper
> > >>location(s) for my Lycoming O-235 as it currently uses an engine mount
> > >>bolt.
> > >
> > > DC power ground should come through your firewall on a
> > > 5/16" (min) or 3/8" (better) brass bolt. This bolt may or
> > > may not be associated with a firewall ground bus as illustrated
> > > in http://www.bandc.biz/GroundBlock.html
> > >
> > > The bonding strap should run from some bolt on the crankcase
> > > to the firewall penetration stud . . . others on the list
> > > can advise you of where they found suitable bolts on or near
> > > the rear of their Lycoming engines.
> > >
> > > A #2 ground wire continues forward from that bolt to a panel
> > > ground bus and from there on forward to the battery (-) terminal.
> > > See view -B- of
> > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Appendix_Z_Drawings/z15ak.pdf
> > >
> > > Bob . . .
> >
> >
>
>
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