Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:39 AM - Re: Signs of alt starting to fail (willfly)
2. 08:43 AM - AVG (Rob W M Shipley)
3. 09:14 AM - AV-10 Engine Monitor Support (I-Blackler, Wayne R)
4. 09:22 AM - Re: Signs of alternator starting to fail (MikeM)
5. 09:33 AM - Re: AVG (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 10:45 AM - Question on Z-14 (Pat Hatch)
7. 11:41 AM - Used electric gyros (Treff, Arthur)
8. 12:24 PM - Re: Used Electric Gyros (Dan O'Brien)
9. 12:43 PM - Re: Used electric gyros (F1Rocket@comcast.net)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Signs of alt starting to fail |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "willfly" <willfly@carolina.rr.com>
Bob you raise and interesting question. How does one properly tension the alternator
belt.
Steve Glasgow
Message 2
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rob W M Shipley" <rob@robsglass.com>
Bob's reply:
We've used AVG here for years with excellent service. I
checked the orders server this morning and it had automatically
downloaded the latest update for the free version but the
computer on my desk had not. I did a manual download but
it was exceedingly slow . . . they usually take about 10
seconds, this one took several minutes. I suspect there
is a bottleneck in their connection somewhere.
If you're trying to install the free version, try
6-XFREE-522613-AVG for a serial number.
Bob . . .
You've done it again, Bob! I'm truly amazed at your facility to answer even somewhat
off target questions with detailed and accurate information. The password
worked and I was able to complete the install. The virus database update
was a different matter. This showed the update screen and then stalled. I suspect
security issues at my ISP so I'll call them next.
Many thanks indeed to Bob and George Bass for their help.
Rob
Rob W M Shipley
RV9A N919RV (res) Fuselage
Message 3
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| Subject: | AV-10 Engine Monitor Support |
<canard-aviators@yahoogroups.com>
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "I-Blackler, Wayne R" <wayne.blackler@boeing.com>
For AV-10 users, current contact details for AV-10 support:
Peter Rummell
9 Merredin Plc.,
Toronto
M3B 1S7
Canada
Ph. 416 446 0126
Thanks everyone for your help. Thanks to a list subscriber and Berkut builder/pilot
in Detroit I was able to locate Peter. He has been between homes, living
in a hotel for a few weeks with his young family and is almost back up and running
again. Peter has offered to repair the unit for no charge.
Regards
Wayne Blackler
IO-360 Long EZ
Seattle, WA
-----Original Message-----
From: I-Blackler, Wayne R
canard-aviators@yahoogroups.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List: AV-10 failure...
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "I-Blackler, Wayne R"
<wayne.blackler@boeing.com>
Hi all,
I have an AV-10 Engine Monitor installed in my Long EZ. The unit failed
totally in August (prior to first flight) and I have been unable to
contact Peter Rummell (AV-10 engineer) for support/repair. Peter had
been supplying solid support via email for my installation in June /
July '03. This has delayed my first flight. I know a number of you are
running these units. I could really use a current phone number or any
other contact information if you have it.
I have tried the following contact details:
AFA
Peter Rummell
60 Penn Ave,
Toronto, Ontario, M2L 1N1
Canada
40 McNab Blvd
Scarborough, Ontario, M1M 2W5
Canada
EMAIL:
afatechsupport@rogers.com
lindaryall@rogers.com
wedgie@interlog.com
Phone numbers:
416 264 0968 (what I thought was current)
416 593 9990
426 264 5134 (old)
1800 737 9185 (old)
416 698 6928 (old)
Many thanks,
Regards
Wayne Blackler
IO-360 Long EZ
Seattle, USA
(253) 520 0447 (AH)
(253) 773 9829 (BH)
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Signs of alternator starting to fail |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: MikeM <mladejov@ced.utah.edu>
> List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@??????.com>
>
> Is there any way to tell if your alternator is on its last leg?
> What are the signs?
Stator: Failure in Stator rectifiers. I have had diodes in the
stator rectifier fail open-circuit, meaning that the alternator
delivers only one-of-three or two-of-three phases. This causes a
reduction of max potential output current, so that the
alternator may not be able to carry the normal load.
The charging system still sort-of-appears-to-work, making
diagnosis difficult. If you monitor bus voltage with an
accurate dc voltmeter measured with engine running > 1500rpm,
most of the loads switched off (light load), then the bus
voltage would be normal (14.2-14.5V). The Voltage Regulator (VR)
is still doing its job by chopping the field current down to a
duty cycle of 5-50%. A +- ampmeter would show no net charge or
discharge in the steady state (proper indication).
If you turn on all of the loads (especially landing/taxi/nav
lights), then the bus voltage will sag due to the inablility of
the alternator to supply these loads. Under these conditions,
the bus voltage may sag to 12.6-13.5V, and the ammeter would
show a net discharge from the battery in the steady state. The
VR is likely doing its job by applying full (100%, unchopped)
field to the rotor, but with one third to two thirds of
the stator gone, the alternator cant keep up with the load...
Eventually, the battery will be chronically undercharged,
leading to cranking problems, especially in cold weather.
There is also a marked increase in bus ripple. If you normally
hear a (hopefully faint if you did your audio grounds right)
alternator whine in your headphone audio, then after the
stator/diode failure, the whine gets a lot louder, and lower
pitched.
Most stator failures are caused when the soldered electrical
connection between the stator wire and the diode stack comes
apart due to heat/vibration. Sometimes this is the only
problem, and can quite easily be repaired, but this requires
total disassembly of the alternator. You have to use a "hard
solder" to repair these connections (not Pb/Sn electronic
solder).
Rotor: The brushes can wear down to where they no longer "ride"
on the rotor slip rings. As they approach the wear limits, the
contact pressure between the brush and the slip ring is
insufficient to keep the slip ring clean, meaning that the brush
contact to the slip ring gets intermittent and electrically
"noisy". This reduces the available field current.
This manifests as "reduced max output current", with similar
behavior of the dc voltmeter and ammeter when all of the loads
are switched on. The noise in the headsets may sound different,
however. As before, this is not the VRs fault. It will probably
still try to do its job of keeping the bus voltage at 14.25V by
applying 100% field duty cycle, but the high resistance of the
brushes against the slip rings prevents the alternator from
developing much field current, thereby reducing output. This can
also manifest as the "pulsating ammeter syndrome", along with
unnaturlly high resistance in the external field wiring...
The alternator whine in headset audio will sound less musical,
more like hash (bacon sizzling). If you have an ADF or AM
radio, tune to the low end of the band (200Khz or 540Khz,
respectively) and you might hear the alternator hash. If you do
remember to this before you have alternator problems, the
increase in direct audio and/or ADF/AM radio RF noise as the
brushes wear down can give you a clue as to what is going on.
I have seen Lorans quit as the RF hash from the alternator
increases over time and finally overwhelms the Loran signals at
100KHz.
The fix is disassembly of the alternator, installing new
brushes, cleaning or possibly turning the rotor slip rings on a
lathe. This is part of a normal alternator overhaul done by
overhaul shops.
Mechanical: As bearings wear, the sideways pull of the belt can
cause the rotor to hit the stator pole piece causing
catastrophic failure and total destruction. Bearings are
normally replaced during overhaul. At annual, remove the belt,
and see how much play is in the bearings.
One Polack to another...
Mike Mladejovsky, Phd
Dr Alternator
Skylane '1MM
Pacer '00Z
Message 5
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 08:43 AM 9/18/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rob W M Shipley" <rob@robsglass.com>
>
>Bob's reply:
> We've used AVG here for years with excellent service. I
> checked the orders server this morning and it had automatically
> downloaded the latest update for the free version but the
> computer on my desk had not. I did a manual download but
> it was exceedingly slow . . . they usually take about 10
> seconds, this one took several minutes. I suspect there
> is a bottleneck in their connection somewhere.
> If you're trying to install the free version, try
> 6-XFREE-522613-AVG for a serial number.
> Bob . . .
>
>You've done it again, Bob! I'm truly amazed at your facility to answer
>even somewhat off target questions with detailed and accurate
>information. The password worked and I was able to complete the
>install. The virus database update was a different matter. This showed
>the update screen and then stalled. I suspect security issues at my ISP
>so I'll call them next.
>Many thanks indeed to Bob and George Bass for their help.
that seems unlikely. like all servers that offer popular
free services, it's probable that they (or the 'net between
you and the server) is really busy certain times of day.
I use the auto-update feature of AVG to get the updates
at 3 a.m. local. My computers run 24 hours a day so this
works really nice and keeps us up to date with a minimum
of hassles.
I just tried a download from their site and it was still
very slow. I think the problem resides someplace outside
your system or isp.
Bob . . .
Message 6
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| Subject: | Question on Z-14 |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Pat Hatch" <pat_hatch@msn.com>
Bob,
I am currently wiring an RV-7 in accordance with Z-14.
I realize that you would normally operate with the busses un-tied thereby isolating
two separate electrical systems. But let's say we close the cross-feed contactor
in flight with both alternators and both batteries operating normally.
Would it be prudent to set the voltage regulator for the 40-amp alternator
slightly higher than the 20-amp alternator thus assuring that the larger alternator
hogs the load? I really can't think of a situation when you would do this,
so maybe this is just academic.
What say you, o great one?
Pat Hatch
RV-4
RV-6
RV-7 QB (Building)
Vero Beach, FL
Message 7
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| Subject: | Used electric gyros |
"RV: Aeroelectric List (E-mail)" <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Treff, Arthur" <Arthur.Treff@Smartm.com>
LIsters
I am building my panel all electric and have been in search of used gyros. They
seem to disappear faster than my cable connection can get the initial message
to me, so I decided to do some research on the instrument repair scene. I called
The Gyro House and Kelly Instruments and in both cases spoke the the person
in charge. Here's what I've learned.
Do not buy non tso'd instruments like Falcon and UMA if you expect long life and
want to be safe in IFR ops. Most non-tso's instruments and gyros cannot be
repaired. Neither house will repair Falcon gyros. We have heard reports of Falcon
gyros drawing excessive current as well as mechanical noise on the aeroelectric
list. Also, I was shocked to learn that RC Allen, in the past, also manufactured
gyros that are not repairable, as key parts were bonded in place instead
of screwed! The way to tell that is to ask the seller the model number.
ONly buy model numbers 26BK or 26AK, all others are not deemed good model numbers
to overhaul.
Cost: overhauling a vacuum gyro is anywhere from $200-$450 depending on the repair
station and condition of the instrument. Overhauling an electric gyro is
$600-$800 with the same caveats. That being said, it begs the question of how
much is a used electric gyro worth? I was shocked at the answer, based on the
prices most guys are routinely getting for used on the internet ($900-$1200).
Gyro houses, if they buy 'cores' will not pay more than $300 for a core electric
gyro. According to Sigma Tek and RC Allen, if the gyro has, at any time
in it's life sat dormant for 90 days without spool up, even if it sat in it's
box, it is a core. Even if it runs in the present, it will fail in the future.
So, if you buy a used electric gyro for, say $1000, and it needs an overhaul?
You're out $1600-$1800 already, may as well buy a new one with a warranty.
Also, if the seller is unsure if the gyro is an 8 degree tilt, do not buy,
as the RV-8 requires an 8 degree tilt and to change it requires a complete teardown
( overhaul, again for $600-$800)
So, what I've learned today is that a used gyro is not necessarily a great deal
unless:
1) It's an RC Allen 26BK or 26AK; and:
2) I personally know the seller to be fastidious in his/her running the gyro regularly
(preferably daily); and:
3) It's also an 8 degree tilt: and:
4) The price for acquisition plus overhaul is under the new price by a few hundred.
Or
4) I can get it for $300
Oh, one more thing, I asked both repair proprietors that if their life had to depend
on it, which gyro would they prefer to fly behind? Their answer: SigmaTek
or REA Vacuum, hands down. Why? They are looking thru the glasses of repairmen.
To them, vacuum gyros are a simpler assembly, and they see few vacuum
gyros returned for repair prematurely as compared to electric. Me? I'm still
going all-electric with an EFIS as primary and a TSO'd AI for backup, which based
on the above, will be new.
Arthur J. Treff
N666AT (reserved)
Wiring
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Used Electric Gyros |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan O'Brien" <danobrien@cox.net>
>According to Sigma Tek and RC Allen, if the gyro has, at any time
>in it's life sat dormant for 90 days without spool up, even if it >sat in
it's box, it is a core. Even if it runs in the present, it
>will fail in the future.
Does this statement apply to turn coordinators as well as AIs and DGs?
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Used electric gyros |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: F1Rocket@comcast.net
If you want to put in a vacuum system (and I don't know why anyone would, but
to each their own), buy Sigma Tec and fly happily ever after.
Randy F1 Rocket
http://f1rocket.home.comcast.net/
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Treff, Arthur"
> <Arthur.Treff@Smartm.com>
>
> LIsters
>
> I am building my panel all electric and have been in search of used gyros. They
> seem to disappear faster than my cable connection can get the initial message
to
> me, so I decided to do some research on the instrument repair scene. I called
> The Gyro House and Kelly Instruments and in both cases spoke the the person in
> charge. Here's what I've learned.
>
> Do not buy non tso'd instruments like Falcon and UMA if you expect long life
and
> want to be safe in IFR ops. Most non-tso's instruments and gyros cannot be
> repaired. Neither house will repair Falcon gyros. We have heard reports of
> Falcon gyros drawing excessive current as well as mechanical noise on the
> aeroelectric list. Also, I was shocked to learn that RC Allen, in the past,
> also manufactured gyros that are not repairable, as key parts were bonded in
> place instead of screwed! The way to tell that is to ask the seller the model
> number. ONly buy model numbers 26BK or 26AK, all others are not deemed good
> model numbers to overhaul.
>
> Cost: overhauling a vacuum gyro is anywhere from $200-$450 depending on the
> repair station and condition of the instrument. Overhauling an electric gyro
is
> $600-$800 with the same caveats. That being said, it begs the question of how
> much is a used electric gyro worth? I was shocked at the answer, based on the
> prices most guys are routinely getting for used on the internet ($900-$1200).
> Gyro houses, if they buy 'cores' will not pay more than $300 for a core electric
> gyro. According to Sigma Tek and RC Allen, if the gyro has, at any time in it's
> life sat dormant for 90 days without spool up, even if it sat in it's box, it
is
> a core. Even if it runs in the present, it will fail in the future. So, if
you
> buy a used electric gyro for, say $1000, and it needs an overhaul? You're out
> $1600-$1800 already, may as well buy a new one with a warranty. Also, if the
> seller is unsure if the gyro is an 8 degree tilt, do not buy, as the RV-8
> requires an 8 degree tilt and to change !
> it requires a complete teardown ( overhaul, again for $600-$800)
>
> So, what I've learned today is that a used gyro is not necessarily a great deal
> unless:
>
> 1) It's an RC Allen 26BK or 26AK; and:
> 2) I personally know the seller to be fastidious in his/her running the gyro
> regularly (preferably daily); and:
> 3) It's also an 8 degree tilt: and:
> 4) The price for acquisition plus overhaul is under the new price by a few
> hundred.
>
> Or
>
> 4) I can get it for $300
>
> Oh, one more thing, I asked both repair proprietors that if their life had to
> depend on it, which gyro would they prefer to fly behind? Their answer:
> SigmaTek or REA Vacuum, hands down. Why? They are looking thru the glasses
of
> repairmen. To them, vacuum gyros are a simpler assembly, and they see few
> vacuum gyros returned for repair prematurely as compared to electric. Me? I'm
> still going all-electric with an EFIS as primary and a TSO'd AI for backup,
> which based on the above, will be new.
>
> Arthur J. Treff
> N666AT (reserved)
> Wiring
>
>
>
>
>
>
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