---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 10/10/03: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:39 AM - Re: Fuse Blocks, fuses, fusible links and CBs (fellowsw) 2. 01:04 AM - Re: Strobe head fix (Gilles.Thesee) 3. 01:12 AM - Re: Rotorway Massive Failure (Vince Ackerman) 4. 06:38 AM - noise in headset when transmitting (Richard May) 5. 07:53 AM - Re: Fuse Blocks, fuses, fusible links and (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 07:56 AM - Re: Solid state relay to replace master (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 10:01 AM - Jumper for Video Camcorder (Pat Hatch) 8. 11:06 AM - Re: Starter/mag switch (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 11:14 AM - Re: Rotorway Massive Failure (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 11:22 AM - Re: Switches and breakers. (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 11. 11:27 AM - Re: Antenna cable routing question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 12. 12:23 PM - Re: Jumper for Video Camcorder (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 13. 03:39 PM - Re: Jumper for Video Camcorder (Pat Hatch) 14. 08:20 PM - Re: Fuse Blocks, fuses, fusible links and CBs (Jim Sower) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:39:37 AM PST US From: "fellowsw" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Fuse Blocks, fuses, fusible links and CBs --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "fellowsw" -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott, Ian Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Fuse Blocks, fuses, fusible links and CBs --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Scott, Ian" doesn't everyone practice flapless landings? I certainly do. Ian Of course but as a perfect pilot it is a theoretical exercise for me. A Dragonair crew on the Airbus couldn't extend the flaps because of a computer design flaw and practiced one as well into Hong Kong airport. Rumor has it that it was not that much fun flying the approach 100 knots faster than normal so it probably depends on the airplane as well. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:04:39 AM PST US From: "Gilles.Thesee" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Strobe head fix --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gilles.Thesee" > > > >Can silicone be used to re-seal the glass lens to the transformer/plastic > >base of the head ? > >If so, what grade is best ? > > Electronic grade (does not smell of vinegar). > > Bob . . . > Thanks Bob, Gilles ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:12:11 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Rotorway Massive Failure From: Vince Ackerman --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Vince Ackerman I am nearly finished building my Rotorway Exec 162f. I have slightly redesigned the electrical system to be more in line with the standards and practices found in Bob's Aerolectric book. The Rotorway electrical system is rather badly designed despite the fact that it has two FADEC's that are totally dependent on a constant source of 12 volts. If you have a total electrical failure, the engine quits. Despite that, this is the first time I've heard of a total failure on any ship. They supply a wiring harness for the entire aircraft and if you want to change anything, it involves some major work. I have made an essential bus and have separated out most of the subsystems to individual breakers but decided to leave the feed from alternator and battery alone. I did add a battery master/contactor but wonder if I'm not putting in a source of failure where one didn't exist before.... I am sending Bob a copy of the electrical system schematic (I promised him a long time ago). Vince Ackerman On Wednesday, October 8, 2003, at 07:44 AM, Dennis O'Connor wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dennis O'Connor" > > > A colleague of mine has a Rotorway Exec... He was taking off this past > weekend... The skids were about 2 inches off the ground when he had a > total > power failure involving the engine/charging system... Looking it over > he > found blown fuses in the circuit(s) to the engine... Only the > instruments > are still lighting up with the master turned on... He was asking me > for > advice... Rotorway has him looking for a shorted wire in the harness > and > ignition.... I doubt that as the source of the problem... > > I suggested that I suspected the alternator had a major OV and/or > internal > short that took out the main fuses and left him with no ignition power > from > the battery... I recommended that he remove the alternator and take > it to > the local auto electric rebuilder and have it tested for output and > regulation ( I do not know whether it is internally or externally > regulated, > and he didn't even understand the question when I asked him) > Obviously there are many possible scenarios... I am aware of most of > them, > and will not bore the group with a recitation, and that discussion is > not > the reason for this message... > > It sounds like Rotorway does not have an essentials bus/battery with > appropriate OVP and isolation for the electrically dependent engine > ignition > (hint, hint, Robert)... Those on the list who have or know someone > with a > Rotorway would be well advised to (help them) determine their level of > risk > of ignition failure... When/if I learn actual electrical facts about > this > bird and get to put hands on, and to see the electrical diagram, I will > inform the list... > Cheers ... Denny > > > _- > ======================================================================= > > _- > ======================================================================= > > http://www.matronics.com/trouble-report > _- > ======================================================================= > > _- > ======================================================================= > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:38:43 AM PST US From: Richard May Subject: AeroElectric-List: noise in headset when transmitting --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Richard May In my aircraft, when I transmit on my comm radio, I hear a loud squeal in my headset. The avionics shop said it's due to the close proximity of the antenna to my headset, and the wire that goes across from one side of the headset to the other picks up the signal. The airplane is all wood, and the antenna is behind the back seat, inside the fuselage. Is there anything that can be done to get rid of this annoying noise? ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:53:41 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" CBs Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Fuse Blocks, fuses, fusible links and CBs --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" CBs At 02:25 PM 10/10/2003 +0900, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "fellowsw" > > > > What would you suggest for a feed to the flap motor. I thought I read > > something about this is one particular animal that can nuisance trip. If > > you were to recommend a CB application how would you power that off say > > the main bus/fuse block? I would prefer to keep the ALT FLD CB the only > > breaker on the panel, if practical. > >FEMA is good concept but .... with many flap systems, the motor will draw >more current than the flap system is designed to take if you extend the >flaps when the speed is a little over the flap extension speed limit. VERY rare, and the risk is easy to deduce. . . . ammeters are cheap and should be part of everyone's toolbox. If you don't KNOW how much design headroom you've got in your selection of circuit protection, then I'll respectfully suggest it's easy to find out. > In >this case a breaker in reach is very handy because you can slow the plane >down, reset the breaker and safely extend the flaps. If you have a remote >fuse in such a case, a good pilot will reconsider runway length and >conditions and go to another airport in case the approach speed is too high >with only partially extended flaps. An UNEXPECTED trip of circuit protection is a nuisance event due to poor design and should be fixed. An EXPECTED and PLANNED for trip means you're (1) flying a spam can and can't fix it or (2) you don't know how your airplane performs under the full envelope of flight conditions and made a decision not to find out. > Of course most POHs don't give you any >guidance for runway lengths with no or partially extended flaps. Under the >best of circumstances this is not much fun when a breaker will let you do it >the way you originally wanted to do it. I of course have no personal >experience with this but have heard those dark and stormy night tales. I have never had to put an airplane down on a field where the difference between having flaps and not having flaps would have made a hill of beans worth of difference. Virtually all the airports I operate out of have 1000' or more of excess runway. If one plans to push both pilot and airplane to the edge of performance limits on a landing then a successful outcome is dependent on proper energy management and manipulation of controls (where observance of flap extension speed is but one of many considerations). I've dissected dozens of dark and stormy night stories for any engineering facts they might reveal. I may have found a few useful tid-bits over the years but taken as a whole, they are pretty much devoid of real data. The pilot who wrote the story was at the mercy of his instructors, regulators and manufacturer of the machine he was operating . . . a victim of collective ignorance and pockets of arrogance that is killing the certified segment of GA. The advice these stories offer miss an important feature of an OBAM aircraft: I know it's a big shift in attitudes and thinking to take full advantage of what the OBAM aircraft community offers. In this particular case, let's not design for what MAY happen because we don't make an effort determine what WILL happen. Then, take CONTROL of it in ways that make our airplanes (and pilots) stand head and shoulders above the rest of the GA community. Bob . . . -------------------------------------------- ( Knowing about a thing is different than ) ( understanding it. One can know a lot ) ( and still understand nothing. ) ( C.F. Kettering ) -------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:56:56 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" contactor Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Solid state relay to replace master contactor --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" contactor At 08:43 AM 10/9/2003 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jim Sower > ><... maximum rated surge is only 270 amps ...> >But wouldn't it still be ideal for an alternator relay that can be easily >shut off for overvoltage> depends on what you call "idea" . . . it's a trade off of weight, size and $cost$ in order to achieve some advantage in performance. If you perceive a positive return on investment for the substitution, then perhaps it is an ideal alternative. . . Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:01:20 AM PST US From: "Pat Hatch" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Jumper for Video Camcorder --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Pat Hatch" Bob, I want to create a jumper to go from the co-pilot's audio jack to the microphone input in a camcorder. I have stereo audio jacks. Can you point me to a schematic that would illustrate how to make a jumper with an audio jack on one end (that would convert from stereo to mono), then have the smaller mic jack on the other end? Is this feasible? I think the audio output will probably be better than the drone of the engine when videoing in flight. I am assuming that the audio output will not be too much for the mic input on the camcorder? Can you just plug a mono audio jack into a stereo jack and have it combine left and right channels? As always, appreciate any input you can provide. Pat Hatch RV-4 RV-6 RV-7 QB (Building) Vero Beach, FL
Bob,
 
I want to create a jumper to go from the co-pilot's audio jack to the microphone input in a camcorder.  I have stereo audio jacks.  Can you point me to a schematic that would illustrate how to make a jumper with an audio jack on one end (that would convert from stereo to mono), then have the smaller mic jack on the other end?  Is this feasible?  I think the audio output will probably be better than the drone of the engine when videoing in flight.  I am assuming that the audio output will not be too much for the mic input on the camcorder?  Can you just plug a mono audio jack into a stereo jack and have it combine left and right channels?
 
As always, appreciate any input you can provide.
 
Pat Hatch
RV-4
RV-6
RV-7 QB (Building)
Vero Beach, FL
________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:06:16 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Starter/mag switch --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 07:36 PM 10/9/2003 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David.vonLinsowe" > > >Hi Bob, > >Twice the rpm with the electronic ignition is because the mag is putting >out one pulse per rev and the E.I. puts out two. The EIS can be >configured for either one pulse or two, but it can't change in mid stream. I'm confused . . . every 4 cyl, 4-cycle engine needs two sparks per revolution. I've seen waste-spark electronic systems that drive only two of the four cylinders each . . . monitoring one of these systems for rpm data would indeed produce 1 pulse per revolution. On the other hand, a mag is just a self-powered version of the Kettering points, capacitor, coil and distributor system . . . which would produce two point operations, i.e. two pulses per revolution. Is your EI system one of those I described above? I developed a tach multiplier module for a Dragonfly builder in AZ who was using a four-coil, waste-spark system on his 4-cyl Hapi engine. The stock VDO tachometer was unable to resolve true engine rpm because the tach signal from one ignition came in at half the expected rate. The multiplier features a phase-locked-loop oscillator that used the half-rate signal to produce a full rate output. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/temp/VDO_Tach_Multiplier.pdf This was designed and tested for the VDO tach, it might work as-is for your tach but can be certainly modified to accommodate any differences. This or a similar device could be wired between the EI sensor signal and the tach select switch so that the electronic tach sees the proper pulse rate vs. rpm for both ignition systems. Bob. . . ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:14:21 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Rotorway Massive Failure --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 10:06 AM 10/8/2003 -0700, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Vince Ackerman > >I am nearly finished building my Rotorway Exec 162f. I have slightly >redesigned the electrical system to be more in line with the standards >and practices found in Bob's Aerolectric book. The Rotorway electrical >system is rather badly designed despite the fact that it has two >FADEC's that are totally dependent on a constant source of 12 volts. If >you have a total electrical failure, the engine quits. Despite that, >this is the first time I've heard of a total failure on any ship. They >supply a wiring harness for the entire aircraft and if you want to >change anything, it involves some major work. I have made an essential >bus and have separated out most of the subsystems to individual >breakers but decided to leave the feed from alternator and battery >alone. I did add a battery master/contactor but wonder if I'm not >putting in a source of failure where one didn't exist before.... > >I am sending Bob a copy of the electrical system schematic (I promised >him a long time ago). I seem to recall having a conversation about this airplane some years ago. I can't recall if it was a builder or a factory rep. I might even still have the drawings in a file somewhere. As I recall, the conversation didn't go very far . . . after the first few exchanges of questions and recommendations, the guy at the other end of the conversation didn't like what he was hearing and quit participating . . . Let's revisit the system here on the List . . . Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:22:09 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Switches and breakers. --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" >Your infinite words of wisdom are requested Bob: > > >I have purchased several switches and breakers from a local electronics >store and am wondering about their suitability for use in aircraft (price >was substantially lower than similar ones from Aircraft Spruce or even Van >s). The hardware data is as follows: > > >1)Potter and Brumfield 50 VDC, 7.5 AMP breaker/switch, W31-X2M1G-7.50, >made in Mexico, screw terminals > >2)Potter and Brumfield 50 VDC, 6 AMP breaker, W58-XB1A4A-6P, made in >Mexico, fast-on terminals > >3)SIEMENS 50 VDC, 3 AMP breaker, W58-XB1A4A-3P, made in Mexico, fast-on >terminals > >4)Potter and Brumfield 32 VDC, 4 AMP breaker, W28-XQ1A-4P, !!!!! made in >USA !!!!!, fast-on terminals > >5)Carling Switch 15 AMP, 125 Volt AC, SPST lighted (incandescent) rocker >switch, made in Mexico, fast-on terminals > >6)EDK 5 AMP, 125 Volt AC, SPST lighted (LED) rocker switch, made in Japan, >fast-on terminals > > >Any good things or bad things to say about the above hardware or general >words of wisdom on these items? Thanks. Dean, you may be new to the list and are unaware of our studies on goals for worry-free parts selection . . . A reliable system is based not so much on WHAT parts you use but upon HOW they are used. The reliable flight system has a FAILURE TOLERANT architecture. If you don't have a copy of the book, See chapter 17 of the 'Connection at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev9/ch17-9.pdf There's nothing particularly good, bad or indifferent about the list of parts you've cited. The manner in which you choose to use these parts can have a profound effect on reliability of your project. Tell us about your project and how you plan to use it. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:27:19 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Antenna cable routing question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 01:56 PM 10/3/2003 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mark Phillips > >Most convenient routing for my comm antenna cable (RG-400) takes it >within about 3" of my Facet fuel pump- is this a no-no? Anyone have >this condition in use without ill effects? Antenna on fuse bottom. > >Would the same apply for the xpndr antenna, also on fuse bottom? After we've accomplished basic goals for noise reduction with the use of single point grounds, proper use of shielding where REALLY useful, reducing the number of fat wires in the cockpit, all other issues drop to negligible if not infinitesimal significance. There is no good reason to avoid running your antenna coax past the fuel pump. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:23:13 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Jumper for Video Camcorder --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 01:00 PM 10/10/2003 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Pat Hatch" > > >Bob, > >I want to create a jumper to go from the co-pilot's audio jack to the >microphone input in a camcorder. I have stereo audio jacks. Can you >point me to a schematic that would illustrate how to make a jumper with >an audio jack on one end (that would convert from stereo to mono), then >have the smaller mic jack on the other end? Is this feasible? I think >the audio output will probably be better than the drone of the engine >when videoing in flight. I am assuming that the audio output will not >be too much for the mic input on the camcorder? Can you just plug a >mono audio jack into a stereo jack and have it combine left and right >channels? here's how I would do it. http://www.aeroelectric.com/temp/micadapt.jpg You'll have to experiment for the right value of R. 10 ohms is a good starting point. Make adjustments in 50% increments. If too weak, try 15, 22, 33, 47 ohms, etc. If to strong, drop to 7.5, 4.7, 3.3, etc. Using small resistors, the whole network can be contained inside the shell of the headset plug. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:39:17 PM PST US From: "Pat Hatch" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Jumper for Video Camcorder --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Pat Hatch" Thanks, Bob, hope this helps some others on the list as well. do not archive. Pat ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Jumper for Video Camcorder > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > At 01:00 PM 10/10/2003 -0400, you wrote: > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Pat Hatch" > > > > > >Bob, > > > >I want to create a jumper to go from the co-pilot's audio jack to the > >microphone input in a camcorder. I have stereo audio jacks. Can you > >point me to a schematic that would illustrate how to make a jumper with > >an audio jack on one end (that would convert from stereo to mono), then > >have the smaller mic jack on the other end? Is this feasible? I think > >the audio output will probably be better than the drone of the engine > >when videoing in flight. I am assuming that the audio output will not > >be too much for the mic input on the camcorder? Can you just plug a > >mono audio jack into a stereo jack and have it combine left and right > >channels? > > > here's how I would do it. > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/temp/micadapt.jpg > > You'll have to experiment for the right value of R. > 10 ohms is a good starting point. Make adjustments > in 50% increments. If too weak, try 15, 22, 33, 47 > ohms, etc. If to strong, drop to 7.5, 4.7, 3.3, etc. > > Using small resistors, the whole network can be contained > inside the shell of the headset plug. > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:20:41 PM PST US From: Jim Sower Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fuse Blocks, fuses, fusible links and CBs --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jim Sower <... a good pilot will reconsider runway length and conditions and go to another airport in case the approach speed is too high with only partially extended flaps ...> Flaps on GA airplanes are not that big a deal. And any good pilot knows that if his flaps won't deploy, he can make the approach no-flap and shut down the engine coming over the fence. His rollout will be less than if he had flaps. Of course, if this is actually necessary, after he fixes his flaps, his takeoff performance will be marginal indeed. Just a theory ... Jim S. "Robert L. Nuckolls, III CBs" wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" CBs > > At 02:25 PM 10/10/2003 +0900, you wrote: > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "fellowsw" > >