Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:08 AM - Stick-shaker for stall warning (James Foerster)
2. 01:35 AM - (Tore S. Bristol)
3. 03:01 AM - Re: (Tony Babb)
4. 03:40 AM - Re: Stick-shaker for stall warning (Jim Sower)
5. 05:00 AM - Re: (Neil Clayton)
6. 06:39 AM - Re: Stick-shaker for stall warning (Jim Oke)
7. 07:36 AM - Re: Rotorway Massive Failure (Vince Ackerman)
8. 07:48 AM - Re: Stick-shaker for stall warning (Kevin Horton)
9. 10:05 AM - Re: (no subject) (Melvinke@aol.com)
10. 10:26 AM - Re: AeroElectric Connection (Rob Housman)
11. 11:18 AM - Duplicates and Extra HTML in List Messages Solved!!! (Matt Dralle)
12. 12:54 PM - Re: (Tony Babb)
13. 02:44 PM - Re: noise in headset when transmitting (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
14. 03:32 PM - Re: Stick-shaker for stall warning (Benford2@aol.com)
15. 03:46 PM - Re: Stick-shaker for stall warning (BobsV35B@aol.com)
16. 04:35 PM - Re: Stick-shaker for stall warning (Benford2@aol.com)
17. 04:50 PM - Re: Stick-shaker for stall warning (BobsV35B@aol.com)
18. 05:12 PM - Re: Stick-shaker for stall warning (Benford2@aol.com)
19. 05:23 PM - Slobovia Outernational Airport Party Invitation (Charlie & Tupper England)
20. 05:42 PM - Re: Stick-shaker for stall warning (Charlie & Tupper England)
21. 07:04 PM - T-2000 connect (Mark Phillips)
22. 07:42 PM - Re: T-2000 connect (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
23. 08:06 PM - Re: Stick-shaker for stall warning (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
24. 09:50 PM - Re: Stick-shaker for stall warning (Benford2@aol.com)
25. 11:48 PM - Re: Stick-shaker for stall warning (James Foerster)
Message 1
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Stick-shaker for stall warning |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James Foerster" <jmfpublic@comcast.net>
Friends,
I'm building a 4 place Jabiru, and this has a central control stick. I
am considering the addition of a stick-shaker as used by military and
commercial planes. A model airplane motor, run at the "appropriate"
speed and driving an eccentric weight should work. The tiny pager
motors available on the surplus market are too small to be useful in a
vibrating plane, however.
Could you professional pilots give me an idea as to how far the stick
moves, and at roughly what frequency? I suspect that 8-20 Hz would be
optimum, based on no real data. Its hard to guess the motion needed as
this will be frequency dependent.
I would drive this motor from either a microswitch attached to a vane
projecting out from the leading edge of the wing, as is used by many
commercial planes with an electric stall warning device, or else drive
it from an angle of attack instrument.
Although auditory warning from AoA devices is good, the stall is the
greatest risk for death at takeoff and landing phase of flight. The
warning should not be subtle and should use several modalities. I look
forward to your comments.
Jim Foerster
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1264" nameGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT faceArial size2>Friends,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT faceArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT faceArial>I'm building a 4 place Jabiru, and this has a
central
control stick. I am considering the addition of a stick-shaker as
used by
military and commercial planes. A model airplane motor, run at the
"appropriate" speed and driving an eccentric weight should work.
The tiny
pager motors available on the surplus market are too small to be useful
in
a vibrating plane, however. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT faceArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT faceArial>Could you professional pilots give me an idea as
to how
far the stick moves, and at roughly what frequency? I suspect that
8-20 Hz
would be optimum, based on no real data. Its hard to guess the
motion
needed as this will be frequency dependent. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT faceArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT faceArial>I would drive this motor from either a
microswitch
attached to a vane projecting out from the leading edge of the wing, as
is used
by many commercial planes with an electric stall warning device, or else
drive
it from an angle of attack instrument.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT faceArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT faceArial>Although auditory warning from AoA devices is
good, the
stall is the greatest risk for death at takeoff and landing phase of
flight. The warning should not be subtle and should use several
modalities. I look forward to your comments.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT faceArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT faceArial>Jim Foerster </FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tore S. Bristol" <tf51@c2i.net>
Hi!
I understand there is something called Bobs Aerolectric book?
If so where can I buy it?
I live in Norway but I also have an adress in Florida, so I could pick it up
there.
Regards
Tore S Bristol
Forewer (it seems ) builder of a
FEW TF 51
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tony Babb" <tonybabb@alejandra.net>
Tore,
Check out http://www.aeroelectric.com/, the book you need is the Aero
Electric Connection, contains lots of practical advice, it is here
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/pub/pub.html. Also check the schedule of
weekend seminars that Bob offers, they are excellent.
Tony
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Stick-shaker for stall warning |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jim Sower <canarder@frontiernet.net>
I know of no stick shaker on any military plane I flew or heard of. I wouldn't
want
one on a plane of mine. Seems a stick shaker would have to be driven by AoA,
so why
not just display/sound off Alpha?
Seems to me a stick shaker would be more bother than help ... Jim S.
James Foerster wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James Foerster" <jmfpublic@comcast.net>
>
> Friends,
>
> I'm building a 4 place Jabiru, and this has a central control stick. I
> am considering the addition of a stick-shaker as used by military and
> commercial planes. A model airplane motor, run at the "appropriate"
> speed and driving an eccentric weight should work. The tiny pager
> motors available on the surplus market are too small to be useful in a
> vibrating plane, however.
>
> Could you professional pilots give me an idea as to how far the stick
> moves, and at roughly what frequency? I suspect that 8-20 Hz would be
> optimum, based on no real data. Its hard to guess the motion needed as
> this will be frequency dependent.
>
> I would drive this motor from either a microswitch attached to a vane
> projecting out from the leading edge of the wing, as is used by many
> commercial planes with an electric stall warning device, or else drive
> it from an angle of attack instrument.
>
> Although auditory warning from AoA devices is good, the stall is the
> greatest risk for death at takeoff and landing phase of flight. The
> warning should not be subtle and should use several modalities. I look
> forward to your comments.
>
> Jim Foerster
>
> <
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Neil Clayton <harvey4@earthlink.net>
This is a "must have" book for building a plane;
Go to Bob Knuckoll's "AeroElectric" web site
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AECcatalog.html
and order it ($30.50).
Updates to keep it current are there too.
Neil
At 04:36 AM 10/11/03, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tore S. Bristol" <tf51@c2i.net>
>
>
>Hi!
> I understand there is something called Bobs Aerolectric book?
>If so where can I buy it?
>I live in Norway but I also have an adress in Florida, so I could pick it up
>there.
>
>Regards
>Tore S Bristol
>Forewer (it seems ) builder of a
>FEW TF 51
>
>
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Stick-shaker for stall warning |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jim Oke <wjoke@shaw.ca>
Stick shakers are common in many aircraft to provide an "artificial" stall
warning when the "natural" stall warning characteristics of the aircraft are
deemed to provide insufficient awareness of high angle of attack situations.
The F-104 most definitely had a shaker and I suspect the F-4 had one as well
although modern fighter aircraft with computer tailored flight controls have
less need of such devices.. A stick shaker is used on many transport
category aircraft such as the Dehavilland Dash-8 (which I fly now).
The objective of the shaker is not to physically move the stick (or control
column) but to vibrate it back and forth as a tactile vice audible or visual
(flashing light, etc.) stall warning. Grasp the stick firmly and it won't
move much at all. The frequency of the vibration on the D-8 is fairly high,
perhaps 120-180 hertz, as far as I can tell. The mechanism proposed sounds
about right - tune the speed of the motor to adjust the frequency of the
vibration and the amount of eccentric weight to adjust the intensity of the
vibration to taste. You might want to think about failure modes and provide
a "shaker disable" circuit breaker to pull in the event of a "failed on"
situation. Most commercial installations also provide a test feature to
inject a high AOA signal into the system at some point to test the wiring
and motor. This is often a certification issue and the system has to be
checked on a regular basis in service.
This sort of complication would certainly be avoided by a commercial
manufacturer if possible. Suggest you check out the stall characteristics of
the Jabiru first to see what the natural stall warnings characteristics are
like and if a shaker will add anything worthwhile.
Jim Oke
Winnipeg, Canada
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Sower" <canarder@frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Stick-shaker for stall warning
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jim Sower
<canarder@frontiernet.net>
>
> I know of no stick shaker on any military plane I flew or heard of. I
wouldn't want
> one on a plane of mine. Seems a stick shaker would have to be driven by
AoA, so why
> not just display/sound off Alpha?
> Seems to me a stick shaker would be more bother than help ... Jim S.
>
> James Foerster wrote:
>
> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James Foerster"
<jmfpublic@comcast.net>
> >
> > Friends,
> >
> > I'm building a 4 place Jabiru, and this has a central control stick. I
> > am considering the addition of a stick-shaker as used by military and
> > commercial planes. A model airplane motor, run at the "appropriate"
> > speed and driving an eccentric weight should work. The tiny pager
> > motors available on the surplus market are too small to be useful in a
> > vibrating plane, however.
> >
> > Could you professional pilots give me an idea as to how far the stick
> > moves, and at roughly what frequency? I suspect that 8-20 Hz would be
> > optimum, based on no real data. Its hard to guess the motion needed as
> > this will be frequency dependent.
> >
> > I would drive this motor from either a microswitch attached to a vane
> > projecting out from the leading edge of the wing, as is used by many
> > commercial planes with an electric stall warning device, or else drive
> > it from an angle of attack instrument.
> >
> > Although auditory warning from AoA devices is good, the stall is the
> > greatest risk for death at takeoff and landing phase of flight. The
> > warning should not be subtle and should use several modalities. I look
> > forward to your comments.
> >
> > Jim Foerster
> >
> > <
>
>
Message 7
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Rotorway Massive Failure |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Vince Ackerman <vack@mac.com>
Who know's, that might have been me :)
The Rotorway electrical failure is rare, but I suppose not unexpected
due to the rather random design of it's electrical system. One of the
problems with the wiring harness Rotorway provides is the sheer number
of molex connectors. Every thing is wired through at least one, some
have two or more in the circuit. The Fadecs have a complicated factory
supplied wiring harness that's integrated into the ship wiring. The
alternator feed is provided by two different size wires, one to the
battery and another up to the overhead switch panel. Why they did it
that way is unknown. Each of the alternator feeds has a (RW supplied)
fuse inline at the alternator. I bought the upgrade to a 51 amp
alternator but think the fuses were designed for the smaller 30 amp
one. I need to check this. The battery feed goes to the overhead switch
panel.
Some of the changes I've made: There were only 7 fuses in the entire
ship which I've now expanded to 15 c/b's. I have added a main
battery/alternator breaker and a bus bar that connects all the Fadecs,
Fuel Pumps and Ignition modules. All nonessential systems (lights,
strobes, radios) are on separate busses with individual c/b's. I added
your OV module to my alternator switch and breaker but haven't tested
it as I am only now preparing for my first start.
The only way I see a total electrical failure on my ship is to blow the
main battery breaker (50 amp) or a battery contactor failure. If the
contactor failed while the engine was running I'd still have alternator
output to the bus. I'd like to further isolate the essential bus and
have a backup electrical source, but weight is a major factor for not
having a second battery. The fadec is very sophisticated, and
automatically switchs to a backup, but both need 10 volts minimum to
function, or they shut down and the engine dies. Any suggestions would
be appreciated.
Vince Ackerman
(Contactor and wiring schematic sent to Bob via USPS on Friday)
On Friday, October 10, 2003, at 11:13 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
> <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>> him a long time ago).
>
> I seem to recall having a conversation about this airplane
> some years ago. I can't recall if it was a builder or a factory
> rep. I might even still have the drawings in a file somewhere.
> As I recall, the conversation didn't go very far . . . after
> the first few exchanges of questions and recommendations, the
> guy at the other end of the conversation didn't like what
> he was hearing and quit participating . . .
>
> Let's revisit the system here on the List . . .
>
> Bob . . .
Message 8
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Stick-shaker for stall warning |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com>
I've flown many aircraft types that were fitted with stick shakers,
and they can be a very useful way to provide stall warning. A well
designed stick shaker is better than aural stall warning because
other noises won't interfere with it. And it is much better than a
visual only display because you don't need to be looking at it to
receive the warning.
I'm not sure exactly what frequency the stick shakers I'm familiar
with work on, but I suspect it is somewhere in the 10-20 hz range.
You need to pick a frequency that cannot be confused with any natural
buffet that your aircraft might have in some parts of the flight
envelope.
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jim Sower <canarder@frontiernet.net>
>
>I know of no stick shaker on any military plane I flew or heard of.
>I wouldn't want
>one on a plane of mine. Seems a stick shaker would have to be
>driven by AoA, so why
>not just display/sound off Alpha?
>Seems to me a stick shaker would be more bother than help ... Jim S.
>
>James Foerster wrote:
>
>> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James Foerster"
>><jmfpublic@comcast.net>
>>
>> Friends,
>>
>> I'm building a 4 place Jabiru, and this has a central control stick. I
>> am considering the addition of a stick-shaker as used by military and
>> commercial planes. A model airplane motor, run at the "appropriate"
>> speed and driving an eccentric weight should work. The tiny pager
>> motors available on the surplus market are too small to be useful in a
>> vibrating plane, however.
>>
>> Could you professional pilots give me an idea as to how far the stick
>> moves, and at roughly what frequency? I suspect that 8-20 Hz would be
>> optimum, based on no real data. Its hard to guess the motion needed as
>> this will be frequency dependent.
>>
>> I would drive this motor from either a microswitch attached to a vane
>> projecting out from the leading edge of the wing, as is used by many
>> commercial planes with an electric stall warning device, or else drive
>> it from an angle of attack instrument.
>>
>> Although auditory warning from AoA devices is good, the stall is the
>> greatest risk for death at takeoff and landing phase of flight. The
>> warning should not be subtle and should use several modalities. I look
>> forward to your comments.
>>
>> Jim Foerster
>>
> > <
Message 9
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: (no subject) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Melvinke@aol.com
-------------------------------1065891852
Go to <aeroelectric.com> and download. Outstanding value!
Kenneth Melvin, N51KX
-------------------------------1065891852
<HTML><HEAD>
tutf-8">
<META content"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1264" nameGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY style"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fffff=
f">
<DIV>Go to <aeroelectric.com> and download. Outstanding value!</DIV>
<DIV>Kenneth Melvin, N51KX</DIV></BODY></HTML>
-------------------------------1065891852--
Message 10
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | RE: AeroElectric Connection |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rob Housman" <RobH@hyperion-ef.com>
Glad to help. The URL for Bob's business is http://www.aeroelectric.com/
and the specific link to the book is at
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/pub/pub.html with a page to buy the book
at http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AECcatalog.html (where you need to
scroll down almost to the bottom of the page to find the "Publications"
item - both a printed version and CD-ROM version are for sale there.
By browsing around at the site you may find enough information on-line to
make it unnecessary to actually buy the book. However, I still recommend
the book, because he explains what can best be described as his "philosophy"
of aircraft electrical systems, and I think it is important to know why we
do things a certain way.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
Europa XS Tri-Gear A070
Airframe complete
Irvine, CA
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Tore S.
Bristol
Subject:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tore S. Bristol" <tf51@c2i.net>
Hi!
I understand there is something called Bobs Aerolectric book?
If so where can I buy it?
I live in Norway but I also have an adress in Florida, so I could pick it up
there.
Regards
Tore S Bristol
Forewer (it seems ) builder of a
FEW TF 51
Message 11
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Duplicates and Extra HTML in List Messages Solved!!! |
aeroelectric-list@matronics.com, yak-list@matronics.com
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Dralle" <dralle@matronics.com>
Dear Listers,
Well, I apologize. I discovered today why the extra HTML tags and odd
repeating of messages was occuring. About 1-2 weeks ago I was
troubleshooting a different problem and had commented out the section in
the incoming message filter that strips out MIME enclosures and other HTML
data. Duh, then I forgot to put it back! Other filters were stripping
out a good deal of the stuff, but still some stuff was getting through!
I've reinstated the MIME filter and things should be back to normal as of
about 11am pdt on Saturday. Again, my apologies!!!
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
List Admin.
--
Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle@matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
Message 12
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tony Babb" <tonybabb@alejandra.net>
by the way, you'll need a 3-ring binder for it. They are commonly available
in the US, I think in Europe you'll only find 2 or 4 ring binders.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tore S. Bristol" <tf51@c2i.net>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tore S. Bristol" <tf51@c2i.net>
>
>
> Hi!
> I understand there is something called Bobs Aerolectric book?
> If so where can I buy it?
> I live in Norway but I also have an adress in Florida, so I could pick it
up
> there.
>
> Regards
> Tore S Bristol
> Forewer (it seems ) builder of a
> FEW TF 51
>
>
Message 13
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: noise in headset when transmitting |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 09:29 AM 10/10/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Richard May <ram45@comporium.net>
>
>In my aircraft, when I transmit on my comm radio, I hear a loud squeal in
>my headset. The avionics shop said it's due to the close proximity of the
>antenna to my headset, and the wire that goes across from one side of the
>headset to the other picks up the signal. The airplane is all wood, and
>the antenna is behind the back seat, inside the fuselage.
>Is there anything that can be done to get rid of this annoying noise?
First you need to confirm whether or not the avionics shop's off-hand
diagnosis is correct. To do this, you need to have a way to "transmit"
without actually radiating any signal into the air close to your
headset. One way is to build a temporary antenna on a stand made of
wood with 25' or so of coax on it so that you can plug it into
your radio but locate it some distance away from the potential victim
(in this case - the headset). Another way is to fabricate a
"dummy load" like that shown in:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/DummyLoad.jpg
Unhook your antenna coax and put this guy on instead. You won't
be able to hear or talk very far on your radio . . . a hand-held
with a rubber duck on it will talk and listen to the radio but the
tower across the field and other airplanes in the vicinity won't
hear you.
See if the noise goes away while transmitting on the remote
antenna or dummy load.
What kind of headsets do you have. Are they noise cancelling
and have some associated electronics unique to the headsets?
Bob . . .
Message 14
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Stick-shaker for stall warning |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com
In a message dated 10/11/2003 8:49:20 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
khorton01@rogers.com writes:
>
> I've flown many aircraft types that were fitted with stick shakers,
> and they can be a very useful way to provide stall warning. A well
> designed stick shaker is better than aural stall warning because
> other noises won't interfere with it. And it is much better than a
> visual only display because you don't need to be looking at it to
> receive the warning.
>
If you guys really need a stick shaker to warn ya of a stall I suggest you
probably should quit flying. Geez .........
Message 15
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Stick-shaker for stall warning |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
In a message dated 10/11/03 5:32:58 PM Central Daylight Time,
Benford2@aol.com writes:
If you guys really need a stick shaker to warn ya of a stall I suggest you
probably should quit flying. Geez .........
Good Afternoon Benford2,
While you may not want a stick shaker on your airplane, there are many
airplanes where the stick shaker has been shown to be helpful, possibly even
critical, in advising the pilot of a situation that could become dangerous. There
are many airplanes that are beyond the point of reasonable recovery technique by
the time any aerodynamic buffet occurs.
The Boeing 727 is one such airplane. While I doubt that very many homebuilt
aircraft will have stall characteristics similar to those of a 727, there may
well be aircraft where the stick shaker does aid the pilot in stall
recognition.
I think you are being very shallow when you unequivocally tell people that
they should NOT be flying if they want a stall warning device on their airplane.
The whole idea of the movement is that we should be able to build that which
best fits our individual purposes.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Message 16
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Stick-shaker for stall warning |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com
In a message dated 10/11/2003 4:47:22 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
BobsV35B@aol.com writes:
>
> The Boeing 727 is one such airplane. While I doubt that very many homebuilt
>
> aircraft will have stall characteristics similar to those of a 727, there
> may
> well be aircraft where the stick shaker does aid the pilot in stall
> recognition.
>
> I think you are being very shallow when you unequivocally tell people that
> they should NOT be flying if they want a stall warning device on their
> airplane.
>
> The whole idea of the movement is that we should be able to build that which
>
> best fits our individual purposes.
>
> Happy Skies,
>
> Old Bob
>
I respect your comments, but
if a pilot does not recogonize lazy control imputs and lets the wings stall
they need to practice more on slow flight. I am sure some aircrafts are
sensitive to stalls and the 72 is one of them but evey time I have ever heard of
stick shaker going off it is on the cockpit voice recorder the NTSB plays a few
days after a pilot kills himself and all the others on board. In all my years
of flying the ONLY time I have ever heard the stall warning buzzer go off was
during BFR's doing stalls. Tell me Ol Bob. in what situations have the stick
shaker helped you out on your flying skills?? This is how I feel so please
respect me for my comments. Peace....
Ben Haas N801BH. Jackson Hole Wy.
Message 17
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Stick-shaker for stall warning |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
In a message dated 10/11/03 6:36:53 PM Central Daylight Time,
Benford2@aol.com writes:
This is how I feel so please
respect me for my comments. Peace....
Good Evening Ben,
I do respect your feelings as to how you want your airplane equipped, I just
don't feel you have the right to suggest that those who feel otherwise have no
right to fly.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
PS I don't believe I have ever been "saved" by a stick shaker, but it has
never hurt me either!
Message 18
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Stick-shaker for stall warning |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com
In a message dated 10/11/2003 5:51:43 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
BobsV35B@aol.com writes:
> Evening Ben,
>
> I do respect your feelings as to how you want your airplane equipped, I just
>
> don't feel you have the right to suggest that those who feel otherwise have
> no
> right to fly.
>
> Happy Skies,
>
I see your point and I retract the comment. My main concern is that someone
fabricates a stick shaker to warn them they forgot to look at the airspeed
indicator and it jams up the controls and kills them. Anything connected to a
flight control should be bulletproof and most homebrewed stick shakers " could"
hurt someone. This is the case of the medicine that is worse then the
disease.. And this is coming from a Zenith 801 builder who is a few hours away
from
flying a experimental with a V-8 Ford where a Lycosarus is supposed to go. I
might need some therapy too....
It is time for an adult beverage, hot tub and NASCAR on the tube. Life is
good in the Hole.
Ben Haas. N801BH.
do not archive.
Message 19
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Slobovia Outernational Airport Party Invitation |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie & Tupper England <cengland@netdoor.com>
Hello all,
Please remember your invitation to our party one week from today at
Slobovia Outernational, just north of Jackson MS.
You are all cordially invited to the next flyin
lunch/supper/all-weekend-long hangar party at Slobovia Outernational
Airport, 10 miles north of Jackson MS on October 17-19, 2003. If flying
fun isn't enough reason to party, it's wedding anniversary time for two
families here, so come & help us celebrate.
Overnighters are welcome any time after noon on Friday, and are welcome
to stay through Sunday. Bring your bed roll and if desired, a tent. We
have lots of indoor floor space & even more outdoor tent space, so come
on down!
We had a great turnout in July with about 45 planes. We are hoping for
at least twice that number in October.
The noon meal on Saturday will again be 'pulled pork', thanks to the
wonderful wives here in our strange corner of the universe. If you can
stay for the hangar party Saturday night, we plan on having 'Chili &
Blues' with a live band for entertainment. Bring your dancin' shoes.
You can get info about our airport at airnav.com
http://www.airnav.com/airport/MS71
Update: runway length is now 4800 feet.
Disclaimer: Slobovia is a private airport. Pilots operate at their own
risk.
If you need driving directions or more info, feel free to email me at
cengland@netdoor.com
or call at 601-879-9596.
FAA Identifier: MS71
Lat/Long: 32-29-42.508N / 090-17-34.325W
32-29.70847N / 090-17.57208W
32.4951411 / -90.2928681
(estimated)
Elevation: 250 ft. / 76 m (estimated)
Variation: 03E (1985)
From city: 1 mile N of POCAHONTAS, MS
Airport Operations
Airport use: Private use. Permission required prior to landing
Sectional chart: MEMPHIS
UNICOM: 122.75
Runway Information
Runway 15/33
Dimensions: 3540 x 80 ft. / 1079 x 24 m
Surface: turf
RUNWAY 15 RUNWAY 33
Traffic pattern: left left
Obstructions: 70 ft. trees, 200 ft. from approach end of 33
Message 20
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Stick-shaker for stall warning |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie & Tupper England <cengland@netdoor.com>
Benford2@aol.com wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com
>
>In a message dated 10/11/2003 8:49:20 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
>khorton01@rogers.com writes:
>
>
>
>
>>I've flown many aircraft types that were fitted with stick shakers,
>>and they can be a very useful way to provide stall warning. A well
>>designed stick shaker is better than aural stall warning because
>>other noises won't interfere with it. And it is much better than a
>>visual only display because you don't need to be looking at it to
>>receive the warning.
>>
>>
>>
>
>If you guys really need a stick shaker to warn ya of a stall I suggest you
>probably should quit flying. Geez .........
>
hmmmm....
wonder if there are any airline or military pilots on this list......
Message 21
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mark Phillips <ripsteel@edge.net>
Can anyone please confirm that the Microair T-2000 is NOT a "strobe"
type transponder and that I therefore connect the pink wire (strobe)
from my AK-350 encoder to ground? Couldn't find anything in the
archives & just wanting to be sure!
Thanks!
Mark - do not archive
Message 22
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: T-2000 connect |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 09:04 PM 10/11/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mark Phillips <ripsteel@edge.net>
>
>Can anyone please confirm that the Microair T-2000 is NOT a "strobe"
>type transponder and that I therefore connect the pink wire (strobe)
>from my AK-350 encoder to ground? Couldn't find anything in the
>archives & just wanting to be sure!
>
>Thanks!
That is correct. See
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Installation_Data/T2000-ACK350_Wiring.pdf
Bob . . .
Message 23
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Stick-shaker for stall warning |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 08:12 PM 10/11/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com
>
>In a message dated 10/11/2003 5:51:43 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
>BobsV35B@aol.com writes:
>
>
> > Evening Ben,
> >
> > I do respect your feelings as to how you want your airplane equipped, I
> just
> >
> > don't feel you have the right to suggest that those who feel otherwise
> have
> > no
> > right to fly.
> >
> > Happy Skies,
> >
>
>I see your point and I retract the comment. My main concern is that someone
>fabricates a stick shaker to warn them they forgot to look at the airspeed
>indicator and it jams up the controls and kills them. Anything connected to a
>flight control should be bulletproof and most homebrewed stick shakers "
>could"
>hurt someone. This is the case of the medicine that is worse then the
>disease.. And this is coming from a Zenith 801 builder who is a few hours
>away from
>flying a experimental with a V-8 Ford where a Lycosarus is supposed to go. I
>might need some therapy too....
>
>It is time for an adult beverage, hot tub and NASCAR on the tube. Life is
>good in the Hole.
The Lears have stick shakers, and several if not all of the
Raytheon jets have them too. They're simple motors bolted to the
back of the control column with eccentric flyweights. The
Lears have two levels of stick shaking intensity controlled
by voltage applied to the motor.
They're activated at setpoints in the AOA indicator system.
Stall warning sensors that drive lights and horns in GA SE
aircraft could be adapted to activate a stick shaker as well.
You could add one to the stick of an OBAM aircraft
with very little risk to the control system since it simply
"rides" on the stick and has no ability to inject or inhibit
control forces.
You're looking for something on the order of 5-10Hz for the "shake"
frequency or 300 to 600 rpm. Most ungeared hobby motors run in
the thousands of rpms and would require some voltage adjustment
scheme for setting the desired rate/intensity.
Theres a geared motor rated at 300 rpm at 12v with an operating
range of 6-24. Specs are found at:
http://www.jameco.com/jameco/Products/ProdDS/164785.pdf
and the critters sell for about $24
I'm a little mystified about the concern. A stall warning
tone injected into the audio system is much easier to do.
After doing the obligatory stall demonstrations for the
flight instructors at biennial time, I'm always amazed that
anyone can get themselves into that condition "accidently".
None the less, if a stick shaker is desired, it's not only
possible but not terribly hard to do either.
Bob . . .
Message 24
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Stick-shaker for stall warning |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com
In a message dated 10/11/2003 9:07:08 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
bob.nuckolls@cox.net writes:
>
> They're activated at setpoints in the AOA indicator system.
> Stall warning sensors that drive lights and horns in GA SE
> aircraft could be adapted to activate a stick shaker as well.
> You could add one to the stick of an OBAM aircraft
> with very little risk to the control system since it simply
> "rides" on the stick and has no ability to inject or inhibit
> control forces.
>
> You're looking for something on the order of 5-10Hz for the "shake"
> frequency or 300 to 600 rpm. Most ungeared hobby motors run in
> the thousands of rpms and would require some voltage adjustment
> scheme for setting the desired rate/intensity.
>
>
This sounds very safe then. You still would have to couple the homemade smart
box to the AOA . I agree with Bob, the tone thing is the simple way to
go.But, we are building experimentals so all is fair.
Message 25
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Stick-shaker for stall warning |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James Foerster" <jmfpublic@comcast.net>
Bob wrote,
"I'm a little mystified about the concern. A stall warning
tone injected into the audio system is much easier to do."
Bob, it's a good question. My plane is a canvas for my ideas--oops, just came
back from a chick-flick my wife wanted to see. I mean my plane is a flying test
bed, and the stick-shaker may improve safety because it works without the
headset on, it uses a sensory input that is hard to ignore, and the greatest threat
to me is landing in the low and slow configuration. Why not just watch
the AoA indicator? Well, my eyes are mainly out of the cockpit when landing,
looking for traffic and my position in the pattern. Making that turn from downwind
to base to final after a long flight to an unfamiliar airport can get me
banked more than I might like. Add some wind shear, and traffic distraction,
and the shaker might be worth it if it went off once in ten years. I agree that
the audio warning might be enough, and that is why I've asked for the opinions
of pilots with more experience than mine for their thoughts: is this worth
doing? If audio stall warning were good enough, why would both commercial
and military planes have it? Figured it was worth some thought, anyway.
Ben Ford is correct about not jeopardizing the control system with add-ons. I
would add this device at the top of the stick, mounted on two standoffs, looking
like a large trigger guard.
Jim Foerster
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|