---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 10/11/03: 25 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:08 AM - Stick-shaker for stall warning (James Foerster) 2. 01:35 AM - (Tore S. Bristol) 3. 03:01 AM - Re: (Tony Babb) 4. 03:40 AM - Re: Stick-shaker for stall warning (Jim Sower) 5. 05:00 AM - Re: (Neil Clayton) 6. 06:39 AM - Re: Stick-shaker for stall warning (Jim Oke) 7. 07:36 AM - Re: Rotorway Massive Failure (Vince Ackerman) 8. 07:48 AM - Re: Stick-shaker for stall warning (Kevin Horton) 9. 10:05 AM - Re: (no subject) (Melvinke@aol.com) 10. 10:26 AM - Re: AeroElectric Connection (Rob Housman) 11. 11:18 AM - Duplicates and Extra HTML in List Messages Solved!!! (Matt Dralle) 12. 12:54 PM - Re: (Tony Babb) 13. 02:44 PM - Re: noise in headset when transmitting (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 14. 03:32 PM - Re: Stick-shaker for stall warning (Benford2@aol.com) 15. 03:46 PM - Re: Stick-shaker for stall warning (BobsV35B@aol.com) 16. 04:35 PM - Re: Stick-shaker for stall warning (Benford2@aol.com) 17. 04:50 PM - Re: Stick-shaker for stall warning (BobsV35B@aol.com) 18. 05:12 PM - Re: Stick-shaker for stall warning (Benford2@aol.com) 19. 05:23 PM - Slobovia Outernational Airport Party Invitation (Charlie & Tupper England) 20. 05:42 PM - Re: Stick-shaker for stall warning (Charlie & Tupper England) 21. 07:04 PM - T-2000 connect (Mark Phillips) 22. 07:42 PM - Re: T-2000 connect (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 23. 08:06 PM - Re: Stick-shaker for stall warning (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 24. 09:50 PM - Re: Stick-shaker for stall warning (Benford2@aol.com) 25. 11:48 PM - Re: Stick-shaker for stall warning (James Foerster) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:08:48 AM PST US From: "James Foerster" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Stick-shaker for stall warning --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James Foerster" Friends, I'm building a 4 place Jabiru, and this has a central control stick. I am considering the addition of a stick-shaker as used by military and commercial planes. A model airplane motor, run at the "appropriate" speed and driving an eccentric weight should work. The tiny pager motors available on the surplus market are too small to be useful in a vibrating plane, however. Could you professional pilots give me an idea as to how far the stick moves, and at roughly what frequency? I suspect that 8-20 Hz would be optimum, based on no real data. Its hard to guess the motion needed as this will be frequency dependent. I would drive this motor from either a microswitch attached to a vane projecting out from the leading edge of the wing, as is used by many commercial planes with an electric stall warning device, or else drive it from an angle of attack instrument. Although auditory warning from AoA devices is good, the stall is the greatest risk for death at takeoff and landing phase of flight. The warning should not be subtle and should use several modalities. I look forward to your comments. Jim Foerster

Friends,

I'm building a 4 place Jabiru, and this has a central control stick. I am considering the addition of a stick-shaker as used by military and commercial planes. A model airplane motor, run at the "appropriate" speed and driving an eccentric weight should work. The tiny pager motors available on the surplus market are too small to be useful in a vibrating plane, however.

Could you professional pilots give me an idea as to how far the stick moves, and at roughly what frequency? I suspect that 8-20 Hz would be optimum, based on no real data. Its hard to guess the motion needed as this will be frequency dependent.

I would drive this motor from either a microswitch attached to a vane projecting out from the leading edge of the wing, as is used by many commercial planes with an electric stall warning device, or else drive it from an angle of attack instrument.

Although auditory warning from AoA devices is good, the stall is the greatest risk for death at takeoff and landing phase of flight. The warning should not be subtle and should use several modalities. I look forward to your comments.

Jim Foerster

________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:35:29 AM PST US From: "Tore S. Bristol" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tore S. Bristol" Hi! I understand there is something called Bobs Aerolectric book? If so where can I buy it? I live in Norway but I also have an adress in Florida, so I could pick it up there. Regards Tore S Bristol Forewer (it seems ) builder of a FEW TF 51 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:01:34 AM PST US From: "Tony Babb" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tony Babb" Tore, Check out http://www.aeroelectric.com/, the book you need is the Aero Electric Connection, contains lots of practical advice, it is here http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/pub/pub.html. Also check the schedule of weekend seminars that Bob offers, they are excellent. Tony ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:40:36 AM PST US From: Jim Sower Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Stick-shaker for stall warning --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jim Sower I know of no stick shaker on any military plane I flew or heard of. I wouldn't want one on a plane of mine. Seems a stick shaker would have to be driven by AoA, so why not just display/sound off Alpha? Seems to me a stick shaker would be more bother than help ... Jim S. James Foerster wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James Foerster" > > Friends, > > I'm building a 4 place Jabiru, and this has a central control stick. I > am considering the addition of a stick-shaker as used by military and > commercial planes. A model airplane motor, run at the "appropriate" > speed and driving an eccentric weight should work. The tiny pager > motors available on the surplus market are too small to be useful in a > vibrating plane, however. > > Could you professional pilots give me an idea as to how far the stick > moves, and at roughly what frequency? I suspect that 8-20 Hz would be > optimum, based on no real data. Its hard to guess the motion needed as > this will be frequency dependent. > > I would drive this motor from either a microswitch attached to a vane > projecting out from the leading edge of the wing, as is used by many > commercial planes with an electric stall warning device, or else drive > it from an angle of attack instrument. > > Although auditory warning from AoA devices is good, the stall is the > greatest risk for death at takeoff and landing phase of flight. The > warning should not be subtle and should use several modalities. I look > forward to your comments. > > Jim Foerster > > < ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:00:33 AM PST US From: Neil Clayton Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Neil Clayton This is a "must have" book for building a plane; Go to Bob Knuckoll's "AeroElectric" web site http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AECcatalog.html and order it ($30.50). Updates to keep it current are there too. Neil At 04:36 AM 10/11/03, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tore S. Bristol" > > >Hi! > I understand there is something called Bobs Aerolectric book? >If so where can I buy it? >I live in Norway but I also have an adress in Florida, so I could pick it up >there. > >Regards >Tore S Bristol >Forewer (it seems ) builder of a >FEW TF 51 > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:39:52 AM PST US From: Jim Oke Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Stick-shaker for stall warning --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jim Oke Stick shakers are common in many aircraft to provide an "artificial" stall warning when the "natural" stall warning characteristics of the aircraft are deemed to provide insufficient awareness of high angle of attack situations. The F-104 most definitely had a shaker and I suspect the F-4 had one as well although modern fighter aircraft with computer tailored flight controls have less need of such devices.. A stick shaker is used on many transport category aircraft such as the Dehavilland Dash-8 (which I fly now). The objective of the shaker is not to physically move the stick (or control column) but to vibrate it back and forth as a tactile vice audible or visual (flashing light, etc.) stall warning. Grasp the stick firmly and it won't move much at all. The frequency of the vibration on the D-8 is fairly high, perhaps 120-180 hertz, as far as I can tell. The mechanism proposed sounds about right - tune the speed of the motor to adjust the frequency of the vibration and the amount of eccentric weight to adjust the intensity of the vibration to taste. You might want to think about failure modes and provide a "shaker disable" circuit breaker to pull in the event of a "failed on" situation. Most commercial installations also provide a test feature to inject a high AOA signal into the system at some point to test the wiring and motor. This is often a certification issue and the system has to be checked on a regular basis in service. This sort of complication would certainly be avoided by a commercial manufacturer if possible. Suggest you check out the stall characteristics of the Jabiru first to see what the natural stall warnings characteristics are like and if a shaker will add anything worthwhile. Jim Oke Winnipeg, Canada ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Sower" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Stick-shaker for stall warning > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jim Sower > > I know of no stick shaker on any military plane I flew or heard of. I wouldn't want > one on a plane of mine. Seems a stick shaker would have to be driven by AoA, so why > not just display/sound off Alpha? > Seems to me a stick shaker would be more bother than help ... Jim S. > > James Foerster wrote: > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James Foerster" > > > > Friends, > > > > I'm building a 4 place Jabiru, and this has a central control stick. I > > am considering the addition of a stick-shaker as used by military and > > commercial planes. A model airplane motor, run at the "appropriate" > > speed and driving an eccentric weight should work. The tiny pager > > motors available on the surplus market are too small to be useful in a > > vibrating plane, however. > > > > Could you professional pilots give me an idea as to how far the stick > > moves, and at roughly what frequency? I suspect that 8-20 Hz would be > > optimum, based on no real data. Its hard to guess the motion needed as > > this will be frequency dependent. > > > > I would drive this motor from either a microswitch attached to a vane > > projecting out from the leading edge of the wing, as is used by many > > commercial planes with an electric stall warning device, or else drive > > it from an angle of attack instrument. > > > > Although auditory warning from AoA devices is good, the stall is the > > greatest risk for death at takeoff and landing phase of flight. The > > warning should not be subtle and should use several modalities. I look > > forward to your comments. > > > > Jim Foerster > > > > < > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:36:02 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Rotorway Massive Failure From: Vince Ackerman --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Vince Ackerman Who know's, that might have been me :) The Rotorway electrical failure is rare, but I suppose not unexpected due to the rather random design of it's electrical system. One of the problems with the wiring harness Rotorway provides is the sheer number of molex connectors. Every thing is wired through at least one, some have two or more in the circuit. The Fadecs have a complicated factory supplied wiring harness that's integrated into the ship wiring. The alternator feed is provided by two different size wires, one to the battery and another up to the overhead switch panel. Why they did it that way is unknown. Each of the alternator feeds has a (RW supplied) fuse inline at the alternator. I bought the upgrade to a 51 amp alternator but think the fuses were designed for the smaller 30 amp one. I need to check this. The battery feed goes to the overhead switch panel. Some of the changes I've made: There were only 7 fuses in the entire ship which I've now expanded to 15 c/b's. I have added a main battery/alternator breaker and a bus bar that connects all the Fadecs, Fuel Pumps and Ignition modules. All nonessential systems (lights, strobes, radios) are on separate busses with individual c/b's. I added your OV module to my alternator switch and breaker but haven't tested it as I am only now preparing for my first start. The only way I see a total electrical failure on my ship is to blow the main battery breaker (50 amp) or a battery contactor failure. If the contactor failed while the engine was running I'd still have alternator output to the bus. I'd like to further isolate the essential bus and have a backup electrical source, but weight is a major factor for not having a second battery. The fadec is very sophisticated, and automatically switchs to a backup, but both need 10 volts minimum to function, or they shut down and the engine dies. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Vince Ackerman (Contactor and wiring schematic sent to Bob via USPS on Friday) On Friday, October 10, 2003, at 11:13 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > >> him a long time ago). > > I seem to recall having a conversation about this airplane > some years ago. I can't recall if it was a builder or a factory > rep. I might even still have the drawings in a file somewhere. > As I recall, the conversation didn't go very far . . . after > the first few exchanges of questions and recommendations, the > guy at the other end of the conversation didn't like what > he was hearing and quit participating . . . > > Let's revisit the system here on the List . . . > > Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:48:46 AM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Stick-shaker for stall warning --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kevin Horton I've flown many aircraft types that were fitted with stick shakers, and they can be a very useful way to provide stall warning. A well designed stick shaker is better than aural stall warning because other noises won't interfere with it. And it is much better than a visual only display because you don't need to be looking at it to receive the warning. I'm not sure exactly what frequency the stick shakers I'm familiar with work on, but I suspect it is somewhere in the 10-20 hz range. You need to pick a frequency that cannot be confused with any natural buffet that your aircraft might have in some parts of the flight envelope. Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Ottawa, Canada http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/ >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jim Sower > >I know of no stick shaker on any military plane I flew or heard of. >I wouldn't want >one on a plane of mine. Seems a stick shaker would have to be >driven by AoA, so why >not just display/sound off Alpha? >Seems to me a stick shaker would be more bother than help ... Jim S. > >James Foerster wrote: > >> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James Foerster" >> >> >> Friends, >> >> I'm building a 4 place Jabiru, and this has a central control stick. I >> am considering the addition of a stick-shaker as used by military and >> commercial planes. A model airplane motor, run at the "appropriate" >> speed and driving an eccentric weight should work. The tiny pager >> motors available on the surplus market are too small to be useful in a >> vibrating plane, however. >> >> Could you professional pilots give me an idea as to how far the stick >> moves, and at roughly what frequency? I suspect that 8-20 Hz would be >> optimum, based on no real data. Its hard to guess the motion needed as >> this will be frequency dependent. >> >> I would drive this motor from either a microswitch attached to a vane >> projecting out from the leading edge of the wing, as is used by many >> commercial planes with an electric stall warning device, or else drive >> it from an angle of attack instrument. >> >> Although auditory warning from AoA devices is good, the stall is the >> greatest risk for death at takeoff and landing phase of flight. The >> warning should not be subtle and should use several modalities. I look >> forward to your comments. >> >> Jim Foerster >> > > < ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:05:07 AM PST US From: Melvinke@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: (no subject) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Melvinke@aol.com -------------------------------1065891852 Go to and download. Outstanding value! Kenneth Melvin, N51KX -------------------------------1065891852 tutf-8">

Go to <aeroelectric.com> and download. Outstanding value!

Kenneth Melvin, N51KX

-------------------------------1065891852-- ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:26:50 AM PST US From: "Rob Housman" Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: AeroElectric Connection --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rob Housman" Glad to help. The URL for Bob's business is http://www.aeroelectric.com/ and the specific link to the book is at http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/pub/pub.html with a page to buy the book at http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AECcatalog.html (where you need to scroll down almost to the bottom of the page to find the "Publications" item - both a printed version and CD-ROM version are for sale there. By browsing around at the site you may find enough information on-line to make it unnecessary to actually buy the book. However, I still recommend the book, because he explains what can best be described as his "philosophy" of aircraft electrical systems, and I think it is important to know why we do things a certain way. Best regards, Rob Housman Europa XS Tri-Gear A070 Airframe complete Irvine, CA -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Tore S. Bristol Subject: --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tore S. Bristol" Hi! I understand there is something called Bobs Aerolectric book? If so where can I buy it? I live in Norway but I also have an adress in Florida, so I could pick it up there. Regards Tore S Bristol Forewer (it seems ) builder of a FEW TF 51 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:18:20 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Duplicates and Extra HTML in List Messages Solved!!! From: "Matt Dralle" aeroelectric-list@matronics.com, yak-list@matronics.com --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Dralle" Dear Listers, Well, I apologize. I discovered today why the extra HTML tags and odd repeating of messages was occuring. About 1-2 weeks ago I was troubleshooting a different problem and had commented out the section in the incoming message filter that strips out MIME enclosures and other HTML data. Duh, then I forgot to put it back! Other filters were stripping out a good deal of the stuff, but still some stuff was getting through! I've reinstated the MIME filter and things should be back to normal as of about 11am pdt on Saturday. Again, my apologies!!! Best regards, Matt Dralle List Admin. -- Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle@matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:54:23 PM PST US From: "Tony Babb" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tony Babb" by the way, you'll need a 3-ring binder for it. They are commonly available in the US, I think in Europe you'll only find 2 or 4 ring binders. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tore S. Bristol" > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tore S. Bristol" > > > Hi! > I understand there is something called Bobs Aerolectric book? > If so where can I buy it? > I live in Norway but I also have an adress in Florida, so I could pick it up > there. > > Regards > Tore S Bristol > Forewer (it seems ) builder of a > FEW TF 51 > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:44:01 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: noise in headset when transmitting --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 09:29 AM 10/10/2003 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Richard May > >In my aircraft, when I transmit on my comm radio, I hear a loud squeal in >my headset. The avionics shop said it's due to the close proximity of the >antenna to my headset, and the wire that goes across from one side of the >headset to the other picks up the signal. The airplane is all wood, and >the antenna is behind the back seat, inside the fuselage. >Is there anything that can be done to get rid of this annoying noise? First you need to confirm whether or not the avionics shop's off-hand diagnosis is correct. To do this, you need to have a way to "transmit" without actually radiating any signal into the air close to your headset. One way is to build a temporary antenna on a stand made of wood with 25' or so of coax on it so that you can plug it into your radio but locate it some distance away from the potential victim (in this case - the headset). Another way is to fabricate a "dummy load" like that shown in: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/DummyLoad.jpg Unhook your antenna coax and put this guy on instead. You won't be able to hear or talk very far on your radio . . . a hand-held with a rubber duck on it will talk and listen to the radio but the tower across the field and other airplanes in the vicinity won't hear you. See if the noise goes away while transmitting on the remote antenna or dummy load. What kind of headsets do you have. Are they noise cancelling and have some associated electronics unique to the headsets? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:32:21 PM PST US From: Benford2@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Stick-shaker for stall warning --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com In a message dated 10/11/2003 8:49:20 AM Mountain Daylight Time, khorton01@rogers.com writes: > > I've flown many aircraft types that were fitted with stick shakers, > and they can be a very useful way to provide stall warning. A well > designed stick shaker is better than aural stall warning because > other noises won't interfere with it. And it is much better than a > visual only display because you don't need to be looking at it to > receive the warning. > If you guys really need a stick shaker to warn ya of a stall I suggest you probably should quit flying. Geez ......... ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 03:46:32 PM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Stick-shaker for stall warning --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com In a message dated 10/11/03 5:32:58 PM Central Daylight Time, Benford2@aol.com writes: If you guys really need a stick shaker to warn ya of a stall I suggest you probably should quit flying. Geez ......... Good Afternoon Benford2, While you may not want a stick shaker on your airplane, there are many airplanes where the stick shaker has been shown to be helpful, possibly even critical, in advising the pilot of a situation that could become dangerous. There are many airplanes that are beyond the point of reasonable recovery technique by the time any aerodynamic buffet occurs. The Boeing 727 is one such airplane. While I doubt that very many homebuilt aircraft will have stall characteristics similar to those of a 727, there may well be aircraft where the stick shaker does aid the pilot in stall recognition. I think you are being very shallow when you unequivocally tell people that they should NOT be flying if they want a stall warning device on their airplane. The whole idea of the movement is that we should be able to build that which best fits our individual purposes. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 04:35:53 PM PST US From: Benford2@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Stick-shaker for stall warning --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com In a message dated 10/11/2003 4:47:22 PM Mountain Daylight Time, BobsV35B@aol.com writes: > > The Boeing 727 is one such airplane. While I doubt that very many homebuilt > > aircraft will have stall characteristics similar to those of a 727, there > may > well be aircraft where the stick shaker does aid the pilot in stall > recognition. > > I think you are being very shallow when you unequivocally tell people that > they should NOT be flying if they want a stall warning device on their > airplane. > > The whole idea of the movement is that we should be able to build that which > > best fits our individual purposes. > > Happy Skies, > > Old Bob > I respect your comments, but if a pilot does not recogonize lazy control imputs and lets the wings stall they need to practice more on slow flight. I am sure some aircrafts are sensitive to stalls and the 72 is one of them but evey time I have ever heard of stick shaker going off it is on the cockpit voice recorder the NTSB plays a few days after a pilot kills himself and all the others on board. In all my years of flying the ONLY time I have ever heard the stall warning buzzer go off was during BFR's doing stalls. Tell me Ol Bob. in what situations have the stick shaker helped you out on your flying skills?? This is how I feel so please respect me for my comments. Peace.... Ben Haas N801BH. Jackson Hole Wy. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 04:50:31 PM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Stick-shaker for stall warning --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com In a message dated 10/11/03 6:36:53 PM Central Daylight Time, Benford2@aol.com writes: This is how I feel so please respect me for my comments. Peace.... Good Evening Ben, I do respect your feelings as to how you want your airplane equipped, I just don't feel you have the right to suggest that those who feel otherwise have no right to fly. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator PS I don't believe I have ever been "saved" by a stick shaker, but it has never hurt me either! ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 05:12:33 PM PST US From: Benford2@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Stick-shaker for stall warning --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com In a message dated 10/11/2003 5:51:43 PM Mountain Daylight Time, BobsV35B@aol.com writes: > Evening Ben, > > I do respect your feelings as to how you want your airplane equipped, I just > > don't feel you have the right to suggest that those who feel otherwise have > no > right to fly. > > Happy Skies, > I see your point and I retract the comment. My main concern is that someone fabricates a stick shaker to warn them they forgot to look at the airspeed indicator and it jams up the controls and kills them. Anything connected to a flight control should be bulletproof and most homebrewed stick shakers " could" hurt someone. This is the case of the medicine that is worse then the disease.. And this is coming from a Zenith 801 builder who is a few hours away from flying a experimental with a V-8 Ford where a Lycosarus is supposed to go. I might need some therapy too.... It is time for an adult beverage, hot tub and NASCAR on the tube. Life is good in the Hole. Ben Haas. N801BH. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 05:23:38 PM PST US From: Charlie & Tupper England Subject: AeroElectric-List: Slobovia Outernational Airport Party Invitation --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie & Tupper England Hello all, Please remember your invitation to our party one week from today at Slobovia Outernational, just north of Jackson MS. You are all cordially invited to the next flyin lunch/supper/all-weekend-long hangar party at Slobovia Outernational Airport, 10 miles north of Jackson MS on October 17-19, 2003. If flying fun isn't enough reason to party, it's wedding anniversary time for two families here, so come & help us celebrate. Overnighters are welcome any time after noon on Friday, and are welcome to stay through Sunday. Bring your bed roll and if desired, a tent. We have lots of indoor floor space & even more outdoor tent space, so come on down! We had a great turnout in July with about 45 planes. We are hoping for at least twice that number in October. The noon meal on Saturday will again be 'pulled pork', thanks to the wonderful wives here in our strange corner of the universe. If you can stay for the hangar party Saturday night, we plan on having 'Chili & Blues' with a live band for entertainment. Bring your dancin' shoes. You can get info about our airport at airnav.com http://www.airnav.com/airport/MS71 Update: runway length is now 4800 feet. Disclaimer: Slobovia is a private airport. Pilots operate at their own risk. If you need driving directions or more info, feel free to email me at cengland@netdoor.com or call at 601-879-9596. FAA Identifier: MS71 Lat/Long: 32-29-42.508N / 090-17-34.325W 32-29.70847N / 090-17.57208W 32.4951411 / -90.2928681 (estimated) Elevation: 250 ft. / 76 m (estimated) Variation: 03E (1985) From city: 1 mile N of POCAHONTAS, MS Airport Operations Airport use: Private use. Permission required prior to landing Sectional chart: MEMPHIS UNICOM: 122.75 Runway Information Runway 15/33 Dimensions: 3540 x 80 ft. / 1079 x 24 m Surface: turf RUNWAY 15 RUNWAY 33 Traffic pattern: left left Obstructions: 70 ft. trees, 200 ft. from approach end of 33 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 05:42:15 PM PST US From: Charlie & Tupper England Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Stick-shaker for stall warning --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie & Tupper England Benford2@aol.com wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com > >In a message dated 10/11/2003 8:49:20 AM Mountain Daylight Time, >khorton01@rogers.com writes: > > > > >>I've flown many aircraft types that were fitted with stick shakers, >>and they can be a very useful way to provide stall warning. A well >>designed stick shaker is better than aural stall warning because >>other noises won't interfere with it. And it is much better than a >>visual only display because you don't need to be looking at it to >>receive the warning. >> >> >> > >If you guys really need a stick shaker to warn ya of a stall I suggest you >probably should quit flying. Geez ......... > hmmmm.... wonder if there are any airline or military pilots on this list...... ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 07:04:37 PM PST US From: Mark Phillips Subject: AeroElectric-List: T-2000 connect --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mark Phillips Can anyone please confirm that the Microair T-2000 is NOT a "strobe" type transponder and that I therefore connect the pink wire (strobe) from my AK-350 encoder to ground? Couldn't find anything in the archives & just wanting to be sure! Thanks! Mark - do not archive ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 07:42:35 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: T-2000 connect --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 09:04 PM 10/11/2003 -0600, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mark Phillips > >Can anyone please confirm that the Microair T-2000 is NOT a "strobe" >type transponder and that I therefore connect the pink wire (strobe) >from my AK-350 encoder to ground? Couldn't find anything in the >archives & just wanting to be sure! > >Thanks! That is correct. See http://www.aeroelectric.com/Installation_Data/T2000-ACK350_Wiring.pdf Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 08:06:05 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Stick-shaker for stall warning --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 08:12 PM 10/11/2003 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com > >In a message dated 10/11/2003 5:51:43 PM Mountain Daylight Time, >BobsV35B@aol.com writes: > > > > Evening Ben, > > > > I do respect your feelings as to how you want your airplane equipped, I > just > > > > don't feel you have the right to suggest that those who feel otherwise > have > > no > > right to fly. > > > > Happy Skies, > > > >I see your point and I retract the comment. My main concern is that someone >fabricates a stick shaker to warn them they forgot to look at the airspeed >indicator and it jams up the controls and kills them. Anything connected to a >flight control should be bulletproof and most homebrewed stick shakers " >could" >hurt someone. This is the case of the medicine that is worse then the >disease.. And this is coming from a Zenith 801 builder who is a few hours >away from >flying a experimental with a V-8 Ford where a Lycosarus is supposed to go. I >might need some therapy too.... > >It is time for an adult beverage, hot tub and NASCAR on the tube. Life is >good in the Hole. The Lears have stick shakers, and several if not all of the Raytheon jets have them too. They're simple motors bolted to the back of the control column with eccentric flyweights. The Lears have two levels of stick shaking intensity controlled by voltage applied to the motor. They're activated at setpoints in the AOA indicator system. Stall warning sensors that drive lights and horns in GA SE aircraft could be adapted to activate a stick shaker as well. You could add one to the stick of an OBAM aircraft with very little risk to the control system since it simply "rides" on the stick and has no ability to inject or inhibit control forces. You're looking for something on the order of 5-10Hz for the "shake" frequency or 300 to 600 rpm. Most ungeared hobby motors run in the thousands of rpms and would require some voltage adjustment scheme for setting the desired rate/intensity. Theres a geared motor rated at 300 rpm at 12v with an operating range of 6-24. Specs are found at: http://www.jameco.com/jameco/Products/ProdDS/164785.pdf and the critters sell for about $24 I'm a little mystified about the concern. A stall warning tone injected into the audio system is much easier to do. After doing the obligatory stall demonstrations for the flight instructors at biennial time, I'm always amazed that anyone can get themselves into that condition "accidently". None the less, if a stick shaker is desired, it's not only possible but not terribly hard to do either. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 09:50:36 PM PST US From: Benford2@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Stick-shaker for stall warning --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com In a message dated 10/11/2003 9:07:08 PM Mountain Daylight Time, bob.nuckolls@cox.net writes: > > They're activated at setpoints in the AOA indicator system. > Stall warning sensors that drive lights and horns in GA SE > aircraft could be adapted to activate a stick shaker as well. > You could add one to the stick of an OBAM aircraft > with very little risk to the control system since it simply > "rides" on the stick and has no ability to inject or inhibit > control forces. > > You're looking for something on the order of 5-10Hz for the "shake" > frequency or 300 to 600 rpm. Most ungeared hobby motors run in > the thousands of rpms and would require some voltage adjustment > scheme for setting the desired rate/intensity. > > This sounds very safe then. You still would have to couple the homemade smart box to the AOA . I agree with Bob, the tone thing is the simple way to go.But, we are building experimentals so all is fair. ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 11:48:50 PM PST US From: "James Foerster" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Stick-shaker for stall warning --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James Foerster" Bob wrote, "I'm a little mystified about the concern. A stall warning tone injected into the audio system is much easier to do." Bob, it's a good question. My plane is a canvas for my ideas--oops, just came back from a chick-flick my wife wanted to see. I mean my plane is a flying test bed, and the stick-shaker may improve safety because it works without the headset on, it uses a sensory input that is hard to ignore, and the greatest threat to me is landing in the low and slow configuration. Why not just watch the AoA indicator? Well, my eyes are mainly out of the cockpit when landing, looking for traffic and my position in the pattern. Making that turn from downwind to base to final after a long flight to an unfamiliar airport can get me banked more than I might like. Add some wind shear, and traffic distraction, and the shaker might be worth it if it went off once in ten years. I agree that the audio warning might be enough, and that is why I've asked for the opinions of pilots with more experience than mine for their thoughts: is this worth doing? If audio stall warning were good enough, why would both commercial and military planes have it? Figured it was worth some thought, anyway. Ben Ford is correct about not jeopardizing the control system with add-ons. I would add this device at the top of the stick, mounted on two standoffs, looking like a large trigger guard. Jim Foerster