---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 10/29/03: 19 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:16 AM - Re: Fuse Holders (Charlie Kuss) 2. 04:34 AM - Re: Fuse Holders (Charlie Kuss) 3. 05:15 AM - Re: AMP / Cannon Connectors (plaurence@the-beach.net) 4. 05:42 AM - Re: Fuse Holders (David Swartzendruber) 5. 06:04 AM - Re: Fuse Holders (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 06:16 AM - Re: Reply from Nova Re: Installation Diagrams (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 06:24 AM - Re: AMP / Cannon Connectors (Jim Stone) 8. 06:24 AM - Re: Current Limiters (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 07:09 AM - Microair CS experiment update (Mark Phillips) 10. 07:27 AM - Re: Re: Garmin GMA340 music volume was: Updated instructions (J. Oberst) 11. 09:31 AM - Re: Fuse Holders (william mills) 12. 09:36 AM - Re: Inductive current measuring device .... (Jim Sower) 13. 10:09 AM - Re: Fuse Holders (David Swartzendruber) 14. 11:28 AM - Re: Inductive current measuring device .... (Trampas) 15. 01:37 PM - Re: Re: Ground Loop (Michel RIAZUELO) 16. 03:24 PM - Battery Contactor (Larry) 17. 04:35 PM - Re: Fuse Holders (Kingsley Hurst) 18. 04:40 PM - Dual Alts (Jim Butcher) 19. 07:31 PM - Re: Inductive current measuring device .... (Jim Sower) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:16:35 AM PST US From: Charlie Kuss Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fuse Holders --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss I just did a Google search on Delphi Pack-Con III terminals, but came up with no useful info. Does anyone have a link to a product guide for these products. Are these similar to GM Weather Pac terminals used on GM auto electronics for the past 10 -15 years? Charlie Kuss >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst" > >Bob, > >I recently purchased your "AeroElectric Connection" book and firstly >wish to congratulate and thank you for producing this excellent >publication for "first timers" like myself. It has been invaluable. > >I am going to adopt most if not all of your ideas including fast-on >connectors and blade fuses etc. > >Whilst I have no violent objection to having the fuse holders behind the >panel, I would prefer access to them from in front of the panel simply >to make life easier if one suspects a blown fuse. I have no desire to >carry out inflight diagnostics and repairs. > >To this end, I have come across the 15710 Series Rear Terminal ATC Fuse >Block by Bussmann Auto which I feel would be ideal for my purpose. It's >properties including modular construction, dual buss option, rear access >etc can be seen at http://www.bussauto.com/pdf/rta.pdf > >My question is, do you have any intention to stock these fuse blocks or >alternatively, can you advise where I may purchase one or more of them >given that I cannot find a distributor in Australia? > >Any assistance you or others may be able to offer would be much >appreciated. > >Regards >Kingsley Hurst >Europa Builder in Oz > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:34:55 AM PST US From: Charlie Kuss Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fuse Holders <6.0.0.22.0.20031029070626.025c8098@mail.bellsouth.net> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss Listers, With a little more diligence, I've managed to find the following link. No a lot of info on it though. http://www.delphisecure2.com/site/home/HomeMain.asp Choose AUTO FUSE SERIES from the Search Products by Family Name listing on the left hand side of the page. Part numbers 10719123 & 10719136 may be what is needed??? I've sent an inquiry to Packard Delphi for more info. Charlie Kuss >I just did a Google search on Delphi Pack-Con III terminals, but came up with no useful info. Does anyone have a link to a product guide for these products. Are these similar to GM Weather Pac terminals used on GM auto electronics for the past 10 -15 years? >Charlie Kuss > >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst" >> >>Bob, >> >>I recently purchased your "AeroElectric Connection" book and firstly >>wish to congratulate and thank you for producing this excellent >>publication for "first timers" like myself. It has been invaluable. >> >>I am going to adopt most if not all of your ideas including fast-on >>connectors and blade fuses etc. >> >>Whilst I have no violent objection to having the fuse holders behind the >>panel, I would prefer access to them from in front of the panel simply >>to make life easier if one suspects a blown fuse. I have no desire to >>carry out inflight diagnostics and repairs. >> >>To this end, I have come across the 15710 Series Rear Terminal ATC Fuse >>Block by Bussmann Auto which I feel would be ideal for my purpose. It's >>properties including modular construction, dual buss option, rear access >>etc can be seen at http://www.bussauto.com/pdf/rta.pdf >> >>My question is, do you have any intention to stock these fuse blocks or >>alternatively, can you advise where I may purchase one or more of them >>given that I cannot find a distributor in Australia? >> >>Any assistance you or others may be able to offer would be much >>appreciated. >> >>Regards >>Kingsley Hurst >>Europa Builder in Oz >> >> ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:15:07 AM PST US From: plaurence@the-beach.net Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: AMP / Cannon Connectors --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: plaurence@the-beach.net David I brought 38 wires through the firewall of a Velocity using a Cannon type connector made by Deutch and distributed by Ladd industries. http://www.laddinc.com/ Works well Peter >> > Bob .. this may be more of a philosophical question vs. a 'best > electrical practices' question. I've always been taught not to > 'break' a wire if it can be avoided i.e. a solid wire was better than > two pieces. > > However, now that I've got miles of wire strung out I'm becoming > enamored with cannon connectors both bulkhead and in-line to make my > life easier and make the airplane more serviceable when I'm on my back > under the panel! When I look at 'production' planes from 747's to > F-16's I see gaggles of cannon-type plugs and they seem to have > workable electronics. > > What are the plusses and minuses of using these connectors? Breaking > wires? I've got access to good gold-plated pins etc. > > Regards, > > David > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:42:59 AM PST US From: "David Swartzendruber" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Fuse Holders --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Swartzendruber" I've seen the Bussmann info on those fuse holders too and thought they looked nice. Recently, I saw them in a Watek, Inc. catalogue and they were priced at $32.04 (Qty 1-9), $27.24 (10-49), $24.03 (50-99). They sell the terminals too. I'd like one for a 4WD vehicle I'm working on. If there is enough interest, I'd be willing to order a group of them along with the terminals and make them available to others. The one they listed in the catalogue is a 20 position dual bus unit. One input stud feeds 14 of the positions and the other input stud feeds the other 6 positions. www.waytekwire.com Dave Swartzendruber Wichita > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner- > aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kingsley Hurst > Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2003 11:33 PM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Fuse Holders > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst" > > > To this end, I have come across the 15710 Series Rear Terminal ATC Fuse > Block by Bussmann Auto which I feel would be ideal for my purpose. It's > properties including modular construction, dual buss option, rear access > etc can be seen at http://www.bussauto.com/pdf/rta.pdf > > My question is, do you have any intention to stock these fuse blocks or > alternatively, can you advise where I may purchase one or more of them > given that I cannot find a distributor in Australia? > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:04:55 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fuse Holders --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 03:33 PM 10/29/2003 +1000, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst" > > >Bob, > >I recently purchased your "AeroElectric Connection" book and firstly >wish to congratulate and thank you for producing this excellent >publication for "first timers" like myself. It has been invaluable. Thank you for the kind words. >I am going to adopt most if not all of your ideas including fast-on >connectors and blade fuses etc. > >Whilst I have no violent objection to having the fuse holders behind the >panel, I would prefer access to them from in front of the panel simply >to make life easier if one suspects a blown fuse. I have no desire to >carry out inflight diagnostics and repairs. > >To this end, I have come across the 15710 Series Rear Terminal ATC Fuse >Block by Bussmann Auto which I feel would be ideal for my purpose. It's >properties including modular construction, dual buss option, rear access >etc can be seen at http://www.bussauto.com/pdf/rta.pdf > >My question is, do you have any intention to stock these fuse blocks or >alternatively, can you advise where I may purchase one or more of them >given that I cannot find a distributor in Australia? The parts business I used to manage from my facilities sorta exploded a couple of years ago and became a third full-time job. I sold it to B&C in Newton. >Any assistance you or others may be able to offer would be much >appreciated. I've forwarded a copy of your note and my reply to Todd at B&C with my recommendation that he look into this variation on the fuseblock concept as a good candidate for enhancing his level of service to the OBAM aircraft community. I was not aware of this new offering. Past versions of rear-wired fuseblocks were not very useful in the one-wire-at-a-time fabrication mode we use on our airplanes. Thank you for bringing this to my attention! Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:16:04 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Reply from Nova RE: Installation Diagrams --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 09:12 PM 10/28/2003 -0800, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Joa Harrison > > >Thanks a bunch Bob. Good to get confirmation. > >Can I have you look at one more thing? > >http://www.aeroflash.com/156-0049.pdf > >Why do I have to run a ground wire to the black wire when the nav and >strobe lamps are internally grounded to the case? Can I just ground the >black wire to the case or should I run a ground wire all the way from the >grounding block on the firewall? Or perhaps run a ground wire from the >strobe supply (that is also connected to the supply mount and the drain wire)? If you have a metal airplane, remotely mounted items like light fixtures, pitot tube heaters, strobe power supplies, etc can be grounded locally to the airframe. >In the Aeroflash FAQ ( http://www.aeroflash.com/faq.html ) it says to use >shielded wire to run to the power supply. Is this necessary and/or beneficial? It isn't always beneficial . . . for example, it's possible, nay even probable that if you simply ran a twisted trio of wires from your power supply to strobe heads, you will experience no adverse conditions. Having said that, given that most strobe systems purchased as a kit come with a shielded trio, why not use it? Similarly, it's no big deal to purchase the shielded trio if it didn't come with the kit. This is an important point to remember about noise mitigation. There are some things we can do that always reduce noise problems, others that help most of the time, still others that help some of the time, and probably more that almost never make a difference. The trick is to put all of the techniques we know about into two piles (1) hard/expensive and (2) easy/cheap. Doing all the easy/cheap things is simply good insurance against having to rework or troubleshoot a problem later. A shielded trio between the strobe heads and power supply fall in the easy/cheap category. What is it your grandfather said to you as a kid? "If you haven't got time to do it right the first time, where will you find the time to do it over?" Well, my grandfather never said that to me that I can recall . . . but I betcha he would have if he came out to my garage, and saw me thrashing around in a big pile of parts that was to become an airplane in a year or two. >BTW I *finally* finished all my Microair radio wiring tonight including >using the two relays exactly per your diagram. Works like a charm and I'm >very pleased! Thanks for the help! Great! Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:24:25 AM PST US From: "Jim Stone" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: AMP / Cannon Connectors --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" Peter, do you have a part number? Jim -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of plaurence@the-beach.net Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: AMP / Cannon Connectors --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: plaurence@the-beach.net David I brought 38 wires through the firewall of a Velocity using a Cannon type connector made by Deutch and distributed by Ladd industries. http://www.laddinc.com/ Works well Peter >> > Bob .. this may be more of a philosophical question vs. a 'best > electrical practices' question. I've always been taught not to > 'break' a wire if it can be avoided i.e. a solid wire was better than > two pieces. > > However, now that I've got miles of wire strung out I'm becoming > enamored with cannon connectors both bulkhead and in-line to make my > life easier and make the airplane more serviceable when I'm on my back > under the panel! When I look at 'production' planes from 747's to > F-16's I see gaggles of cannon-type plugs and they seem to have > workable electronics. > > What are the plusses and minuses of using these connectors? Breaking > wires? I've got access to good gold-plated pins etc. > > Regards, > > David > > == == == == ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:24:34 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Current Limiters --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 07:30 PM 10/28/2003 -0700, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" > >Hi Ernest, > >Aha... Okay, now I see what you are getting at. I don't think >there is an effective means for 'throttling' an alternator to a >certain current output. The alternator is controlled by a VOLTAGE >regulator. This means that in response to a varying load, the >regulator is going to try to adjust the ammount of current coming >out of the alternator to keep the VOLTAGE within the specified >range (usually about 14V). The bigger the load on the bus, the >larger the initial sag, and the larger response from the regulator. >This will continue until the alternator is max'ed out (around 70A). >In your airplane, the only time I can see you exceeding your power >budget is when you are charging a dead battery. > >So, here's what I would do... Ditch the 40A shunt and meter. Get a >75A shunt from somewhere (BandC has them for $25), and a meter that >reads in percent (-100-0-100). Is the Van's instrument a battery ammeter (-zero+)? If so, and assuming you want it to read like a battery ammeter, your system will have to be wired like a C-172 and bring the alternator b-lead into the bus instead of tying to the starter contactor on the firewall. You can use these archaic instruments as an alternator loadmeter by installing the shunt in the b-lead as shown in the z-drawings . . . it just never gives a reading in the minus territory . . . > The meter will indicate full scale when >it recieves 50mV from whatever shunt you install (75A) in this case. >This way, you have the advantage of being able to use the full rated >output of the boat anchor that you are paying to haul around. That >will be nice when you install heated seats, and a mondo landing light. >Plus, the bigger shunt weighs no more, and is the same price as the >40A. If you run the battery flat, the 70A alternator will charge it >much faster than if you were to successfully regulate the 70A down to >40A. I was going to suggest that but thought I'd let him down easy. Now that you went and done it anyhow, I'll have to agree that if it were my airplane, I'd install an instrument/shunt combination that was sized to the task. >The cheap way might be to keep the meter that you have, and just replace >the shunt... Then, if the meter says 40A, the circuit is really moving >75A... Kind of lame though. If the meter says 20A, then you have 37.5A. > >The really cheap way is don't do anything, but just run it, it may >eventually break the mechanism in the meter from knocking the needle >against the stop... I bet you would get away with it for a while though. >How often will the alternator need to put out more than 40A?? Only if >something bad happens. Actually, it will probably do it every time the engine is started and the alternator comes on line to recharge the battery. Pointer instruments aren't all that fragile. I've see situations where an instrument took a 5x momentary hit routinely with no ill effects. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:09:12 AM PST US From: Mark Phillips Subject: AeroElectric-List: Microair CS experiment update --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mark Phillips Bob- I received the replacement processor from Ian at Microair one week from his offering to send it- pretty good from Oz to TN it would seem! I was able to borrow the proper removal tool and replacement was simple (talk about clever packaging!!). Unfortunately, it was not the problem and the radio behaves the same as before. I have e-mailed Microair requesting further guidance and will let y'all know what happens... Mark At 07:44 AM 10/24/2003 -0500, you wrote: >Yessir- here's the reply from Oz: > >"G,day mark, >Sorry you are having radio problems,I have just returned from 2 weeks >leave,hence the delay in reply.It seems from your description you may have a >microprocessor problem.Do you think you could replace it if i sent one to >you.It is a plug in device. >Regards Ian.G." (Ian Games) > Interesting! Owner maintained radios. What will they think of next. I am encouraged that Microair has taken this tiny leap into crafting a cooperative and more useful relationship with their customers. Let us know how the great Microair experiment plays out . . . Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:27:04 AM PST US From: "J. Oberst" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Garmin GMA340 music volume was: Updated instructions --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "J. Oberst" Roy, thanks. Got it. Strange that I couldn't find it by searching on their site. Jim. ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Garmin GMA340 music volume was: Updated instructions > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: royt.or@netzero.com > > > Jim, > > The Radio Shack PN that I think is equivalent to the Boostaroo is 33-1109. Radio Shack web page lists it for $21.99. > > My GMA340 installation had sufficient volume with my CD player to hear the tunes when the engine was not running, but not sufficient volume when the engine was running. The Radio Shack volume booster gives sufficient volume with the setup. > > Regards, > > Roy > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:31:28 AM PST US From: william mills Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Fuse Holders --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: william mills >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Swartzendruber" > -----snip---------- > I'd be willing to order a group of them >along with the terminals and make them available to others. The one >they listed in the catalogue is a 20 position dual bus unit. One input >stud feeds 14 of the positions and the other input stud feeds the other >6 positions. > >www.waytekwire.com > >Dave Swartzendruber >Wichita Dave - I'm in for one of those described above. Thank you - Bill Mills RANS Courier - covering SF bay area Ca. do not archive ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:36:31 AM PST US From: Jim Sower Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Inductive current measuring device .... --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jim Sower Eric, These devices look like what I was talking about except that they require me to design and build a circuit to display the current flow. Sadly, I am not able to do that. What I need is something I can wire directly to a meter. That's about the extent of my circuitry skills. Jim S. "Eric M. Jones" wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" > > >there were inductive current measuring devices that clamped over, say, an > alternator B+ > >lead and measured output pretty accurately. > >Jim Sower > > Jim, It used a hall effect sensor (for AC you can use a clamp-on > transformer...) There aren't many ways to do this job, but this looks like a > good one. See these guys. > > http://www.allegromicro.com/hall/currentsensor.asp > > Eric > > _ ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:09:14 AM PST US From: "David Swartzendruber" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Fuse Holders --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Swartzendruber" Let's see if B&C is going to stock them and how good of a price they are willing to pass along to us. If they are going to do it, it probably doesn't make much sense for me to. Dave Swartzendruber > -----snip---------- > > I'd be willing to order a group of them > >along with the terminals and make them available to others. The one > >they listed in the catalogue is a 20 position dual bus unit. One input > >stud feeds 14 of the positions and the other input stud feeds the other > >6 positions. > > > >www.waytekwire.com > > > >Dave Swartzendruber > >Wichita > > Dave - > > I'm in for one of those described above. > > Thank you - > Bill Mills > RANS Courier - covering > SF bay area Ca. > > do not archive > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:28:20 AM PST US From: "Trampas" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Inductive current measuring device .... --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Trampas" Jim, Try http://www.ampsense.com/ Trampas -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Sower Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Inductive current measuring device .... --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jim Sower Eric, These devices look like what I was talking about except that they require me to design and build a circuit to display the current flow. Sadly, I am not able to do that. What I need is something I can wire directly to a meter. That's about the extent of my circuitry skills. Jim S. "Eric M. Jones" wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" > > >there were inductive current measuring devices that clamped over, say, an > alternator B+ > >lead and measured output pretty accurately. > >Jim Sower > > Jim, It used a hall effect sensor (for AC you can use a clamp-on > transformer...) There aren't many ways to do this job, but this looks like a > good one. See these guys. > > http://www.allegromicro.com/hall/currentsensor.asp > > Eric > > _ ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 01:37:53 PM PST US From: "Michel RIAZUELO" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Ground Loop --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Michel RIAZUELO" Hi Mike and all, Mike, many, many, many ... thanks for your answer. I had just heard about the "Ground loops", now, I know all !!! I think (I hope!) I have understood the philosophy of "single not ground"and I will try to respect it ! I think too that the layout I plan and dscribe in my first message, is near the "radial grounds" concept you describe. I am lucky! Please, allow me two questions: (1) I will use a MED 80 for the monitoring of my ROTAX 912 ( http://www.bwavio.com/manuali/man_med_80_usa.pdf ). It collect informations from probes on the engine (witch certainly have engine-ground) and have its own electrical feed. If I have well understand, I have to wire the MED 80 ground up to engine ground and keep its frame isolated with the instrument panel. Am I right ? (2) I will use the diagram recommended by Bob for the ignition blocks and the starter commands with 2 swithes S700 2-5. The two "put to ground "wires, killers of ignition will be shielded. Should they be connected only to the "engine ground" or also to the ` instrument panel ground " (as ROTAX said) and might have a "ground loop" ? Regards, Michel RIAZUELO MCR SPORTSTER in progress .... ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 03:24:17 PM PST US From: Larry Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery Contactor --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Larry How can I verify that the battery contactors have closed in a dual battery system, Figure Z-30. It is easy to verify that the contactor coils are energized but system voltage will be established as soon as the one of the two battery contactors close. This condition can be detected during preflight by switching: Main Battery, Both, Aux Battery but I think there has to be a more elegant method. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 04:35:21 PM PST US From: "Kingsley Hurst" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Fuse Holders --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst" Do not archive Re fuse holders at http://www.bussauto.com/pdf/rta.pdf Bob N. Thank you for your reply and for passing this info on to B&C. Hope they oblige. Could have knocked me over with a feather when you said you hadn't heard of them!! Dave and William I agree we should wait to see what B&C does. I have to order other items from them in the near future so it would be more convenient for me if the fuse blocks will be available through them. However if this does not eventuate Dave, I certainly would appreciate the insurance of having you as a stand-by if you don't mind. Thank you too for posting the cost of these items as I was unaware or this aspect before. Cheers Kingsley Hurst Europa Builder in Oz ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 04:40:05 PM PST US From: "Jim Butcher" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Dual Alts --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Butcher" Bob, I'm building a europa with Rotax 914. The plan is to use Z-13 with a SD20 for one alternator and the Rotax alt for the other. Will two alternators work together to charge the battery? Neither one has the capacity to keep up, but the two together do. Thanks Jim Butcher Europa A185 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 07:31:25 PM PST US From: Jim Sower Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Inductive current measuring device .... --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jim Sower Now THAT could be a solution. It takes a lot of panel space, but that might be negotiable. I checked the specs for the AMP25 and AMP200 and figured they would need some supporting circuitry. I was hoping I could maybe connect it to the meter I have after removing the shunt and get the accuracy I need (vaguely accurate, charge and discharge magnitudes). Guess not. The CS50P would "plug and play" and I could open up the panel hole to accept it. Thanks a million for the heads up ... Jim S. Trampas wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Trampas" > > Jim, > > Try http://www.ampsense.com/ > > Trampas > > ... snip ...What I need is something I can wire directly to a meter. ... >