Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:50 AM - Re: Ground loop ... (Michel RIAZUELO)
2. 06:51 AM - Re: getting the horse back out in front of the cart . . . (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 06:56 AM - New Fuse Block from marine supplier (Mark Neubauer)
4. 07:09 AM - Re: Engine cranking problem in Glasair (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 07:15 AM - Re: Inductive current measuring device .... (Robinson, Chad)
6. 07:18 AM - Re: Ground loop ... (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 07:19 AM - Dome lights (Treff, Arthur)
8. 07:49 AM - Re: Fastons Vs. Other (Gkb5577@aol.com)
9. 08:39 AM - Re: Current Limiters (Ernest Kells)
10. 09:01 AM - Anderson Power Pole connectors (Ronald J. Parigoris)
11. 09:11 AM - Re: Inductive current measuring device .... (John R)
12. 10:10 AM - Re: Microair CS experiment update (Mark Phillips)
13. 10:24 AM - Re: Current Limiters (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
14. 10:26 AM - Re: Dome lights (Brett Ferrell)
15. 11:04 AM - Re: Anderson Power Pole connectors (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
16. 11:15 AM - Re: Fastons Vs. Other (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
17. 11:44 AM - Re: Ground loop ... (Dan Checkoway)
18. 01:00 PM - Re: Fastons Vs. Other (John R)
19. 02:04 PM - Re: Ground loop ... (Michel RIAZUELO)
20. 07:40 PM - Re: Re: getting the horse back out in front of the (Jim Sower)
21. 07:53 PM - Re: Dome lights (N1deltawhiskey@aol.com)
22. 10:42 PM - All New Matronics Email List Online Chat!!! (Matt Dralle)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Ground loop ... |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Michel RIAZUELO" <mt.riazuelo@wanadoo.fr>
Hi Bob,
Thank you for your answer.
> Do you have a copy of the AeroElectric Connection? There's
> a chapter on grounding and another on system noise issues
> that would be good starting points for understanding
> how it all works.
I do not have it yet, but it is in the first order I prepare for B&C !
I know the 24/24-Tab Firewall Ground Kit (and all the other B&C products !) and
it is on my order too !
I initially thought of having a ground block on the firewall (engine side) and
the principal bus, the essential bus and the main ground block behind of the instrument
panel.
This for to have not to wire all the returns towards the ground between the Instrument
Panel and the Firewall (4 feet).
With only "Single POINT Ground", which does one make with the aluminium frame of
the Instrument Panel?
Is it possible to use a D-SUB connector for ground wire to be able to dismount
the Instrument Panel ?
Regards,
Michel.
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: getting the horse back out in front of the cart |
. . .
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 01:57 AM 10/31/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jim Sower <canarder@frontiernet.net>
>
>You're a pretty good devil's advocate. Actually, I have to have plug &
>play or nothing at all. I've bypassed the ammeter I had to avoid running
>alternator current the length of the airplane twice.
????? That's what a shunt does for you. Let's you measure
current in a remote location on tiny wires irrespective of
how much current is being measured/monitored.
> I still have charging voltage, so it's no great loss. Don't trust the
> meter anyway. It stays on 15-20 amps charge and doesn't move all that
> much when system is charging a
>low battery.
What is the basis for your distrust? If you have a loadmeter now
that behaves as you describe, it COULD be entirely accurate. A soggy
battery recharges at relatively slow rates (especially if your
bus voltage is set too low) and the "constant charge reading"
may simply be the sum total of equipment loads (relatively
constant) + a small charging value for battery.
Lack of trust simply means "lack of understanding" . . . if
you know the instrument is bogus, why leave it in the airplane?
If you haven't checked it for proper operation, then it may
very well be trying to tell you something useful about
what's going on in your airplane.
> As you say, besides the sensor, I'd have to have a power supply and
> display device. Way more trouble than it's worth.
>Don't guess there is a solution simple enough to meet my meager electronic
>abilities ... Jim S.
I'm not sure that's true. Your earliest postings on this
thread was "how do I do this?" . . . for which you received
some useful and lucid replies. Now, I sense from your
responses that you've not yet explored "what do I need?"
"how is it useful to me as a pilot/maintainer of an airplane"
and "what is the most efficient way of achieving that
performance?"
I'm working with a group of folks on a six-sigma team with
a mission to improve communications and collective understanding
amongst 800 engineers spread in little clumps over a square
mile. The initial thrust of many efforts like this is to
start gathering answers. I've suggested that questions are
more important than answers. If you don't ask all the questions
and place them in some logical order of significance, then
whatever answers are assembled at random (while perfectly accurate)
may not reveal solutions to a problem. Your question was
too far down the road so folks who answered could only assume
that the earlier studies to lay foundation were already understood.
This appears not to be the case.
Let's back up a bit and have you explain what you have now,
how and why it falls short of your perceptions of what you
need and THEN figure out the combination of hardware that
fits your requirements for space, weight, cost and
relative complexity.
Bob . . .
Message 3
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| Subject: | New Fuse Block from marine supplier |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark Neubauer" <mark.neubauer@genmar.com>
I work for a large boat manufacturing company and at a trade show in Miami this past week found a very nice fuse block that will be introduced to the market within the next two months http://www.bluesea.com (Don't pay attention to their "Now Shipping" banner on their web page. They aren't available yet. I called them yesterday and said they are in the final production de-bugging)
The overall advantage is that they are very well thought out, have 12 positions
(a 6-slot unit is in development but nothing larger on the horizon), include
ground terminals and translucent cover. Not sure about price. I plan to use two
- one for my switched bus and one for my essential bus on the GlaStar I'm building,
mounting them above the footwells, behind the IP (similar to an automobile).
I'll then have a battery-fed fuse block mounted in the panel with the feeds
for my CDI ignition systems.
These units are intended for surface mounting - the screw terminals are on the
"front" of the unit.
Mark Neubauer
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Engine cranking problem in Glasair |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 07:15 AM 10/31/2003 +0200, you wrote:
>Bob,
>Thanks for the prompt reply.
>The battery is a definite Gell type not the RGM type. At Oshkosh Concorde
>batteries told me to buy one of their 25a/h RGM batteries [the XC 25]. I do
>not see how going down in a/h will solve the problem. Surely the internal
>resistance of my battery is not 9amps worth ? Mine is a 34a/h gell.
Internal impedance of a battery and its capacity are only loosely
related. I can show you 2 a.h. cells that will crank with more
enthusiasm than a 50 a.h. battery of another technology.
>I dont know what gauge my wires are, however if I measure them in diameter
>[copper strands only ] they are about 1/2 inch across. I have never seen
>bigger on a plane.
Interesting but not very helpful in doing quantitative analysis
of where your battery's energy is getting wasted when you
crank the engine. Do you have a scrap of this same wire?
Get a micrometer and measure the diameter of one strand of
wire and then count the strands. From this we can calculate
its electrical characteristics . . . very important data
for the analysis.
>Will the wound starter really make a big difference?
It certainly CAN . . . IF starter characteristics prove
to be the long pole in the tent. To determine that, we
need real measurements. The results of these measurements
will guide us in determining the best course of action.
You can download one of the chapters in my book that
explains the significance of this line of investigation.
Download:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev9/ch5-9.pdf
In particular, see discussion on cranking path resistance
on pages 5-3 and 5-3. Here's another page from the book
http://www.aeroelectric.com/temp/Page_2-6.pdf
Until we have data in the form of all the voltage measurements
depicted in this figure, discussing solutions is pure
speculation.
--------------- earlier exchange ----------------------
> > >Comments/Questions: Bob,
> > >You come highly recommended as my last hope in troubleshooting my
>starting
> > >problems of my Glasair III .I have a 300hp lyc, Skytec 12v starter, 16ft
> > >of welding cable [for more current capacity]and a 34amp/h gell battery.
> > >When the engine is cold it is difficult to get the prop blade to swing
> > >thru the first compression stroke. Often the currentdraw causes the
> > >solenoid to kick out.
> >
> > What is the actual size of your welding cable? I presume
> > the 16' is total wire length. 2AWG or even 0AWG welding
> > cable can go a long way toward maximizing utilization
> > of the battery's energy for cranking.
> >
> > >Some tell me the Skytec product is inferior
> >
> > I think the B&C starters with their wire wound fields will
> > produce better performance with the large engines than
> > Skytec which uses permanent magnet fields.
> >
> >
> > >others tell me the battery is too small.
> >
> > It's a function of internal impedance of the battery.
> > There are 10 a.h. batteries that will crank your engine.
> > The trick is to get that energy from battery to starter.
> > Is your battery a true 'Gel Cell' or is it a recombinant
> > gas battery? There's a BIG difference. What brand and
> > part number is it?
> >
> > You need to measure voltage at the battery terminals
> > while cranking and at the starter terminals while
> > cranking. Use an analog meter, not digital so that
> > you can do some visual averaging. I suspect that
> > your battery is tired or you have excessive votlage
> > drop in the wiring and contactors . . . or both.
> >
> >
> >
> > >The solenoids have been checked.The wire carrying the current was
>replaced
> > >with one as thick as my little finger[+/- 1/2"].Note: once the prop has
> > >momentum it swings okay. Help please.
> >
> > If your battery is an RG battery and fresh and your
> > wiring is 0AWG or bigger, then starter replacement
> > with a B&C starter is the next thing to try.
> >
> > Bob . . .
Message 5
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| Subject: | Inductive current measuring device .... |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robinson, Chad" <crobinson@rfgonline.com>
Jim Sower wrote:
>
> You're a pretty good devil's advocate. Actually, I have to
> have plug & play or nothing at all. I've bypassed the
> ammeter I had to avoid running alternator current the length
> of the airplane twice. I still have charging voltage, so
> it's no great loss. Don't trust the meter anyway. It stays
> on 15-20 amps charge and doesn't move all that much when
> system is charging a
> low battery. As you say, besides the sensor, I'd have to
> have a power supply and display device. Way more trouble
> than it's worth.
> Don't guess there is a solution simple enough to meet my
> meager electronic abilities ... Jim S.
=) I hate to be a killjoy, though.
Let's go back to your original problem. Are you suspecting that you are getting
radiated noise from the ammeter's connection all the way back to the shunt? If
so, perhaps a shielded wire would be a simpler solution. You could also arrange
a choke similar to Bob's guide, which would filter out some of the noise at
the expense of reducing the response rate of the meter (not that you'd probably
notice - it wouldn't be on the order of seconds...)
Normally, this shouldn't be the source. Despite the presence of noise in the signal,
there isn't much current flowing (it's 0.05V max applied to the meter, usually)
so the radiated noise from an ammeter won't be very large. That is, your
antenna is large/long in this case, but the power into it is small.
You might also be well served by routing this connection elsewhere, but you might
want to investigate other noise sources. Or have you disconnected the wire
and the noise goes away?
Bob, can you provide any insight as to the frequencies a choke would need to cover
to filter out alternator noise? Or is the choke modification you describe
in one of your articles already suitable for that? I'm making an assumption again
but it sounds like Jim might find that type of solution useful.
I'm assuming all of the above because the problem can't be that you just don't
want the wires there - you'd need them anyway for a Hall Effect sensor arrangement.
Regards,
Chad
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Ground loop ... |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 02:50 PM 10/31/2003 +0100, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Michel RIAZUELO"
><mt.riazuelo@wanadoo.fr>
>
>Hi Bob,
>
>
>Thank you for your answer.
>
>
> > Do you have a copy of the AeroElectric Connection? There's
> > a chapter on grounding and another on system noise issues
> > that would be good starting points for understanding
> > how it all works.
>
>
>I do not have it yet, but it is in the first order I prepare for B&C !
>
>I know the 24/24-Tab Firewall Ground Kit (and all the other B&C products
>!) and it is on my order too !
Okay, excellent first steps . . .
>I initially thought of having a ground block on the firewall (engine side)
>and the principal bus, the essential bus and the main ground block behind
>of the instrument panel.
You've seen how the ground blocks are configured in the kit. While
on opposite sides of the firewall, they are electrically a single
point ground. I'm not suggesting that multiple ground busses are
an automatic recipe for problems but I can assert that you won't
have ground loop problems if there are no loops . . . I.e., one
place on the firewall where it all comes together.
>This for to have not to wire all the returns towards the ground between
>the Instrument Panel and the Firewall (4 feet).
Your concern/solution for wire reduction with multiple
ground buses can offset other advantages assured by having
a single ground . . .
>With only "Single POINT Ground", which does one make with the aluminium
>frame of the Instrument Panel?
"ground" has no structural significance, nor should the structure
of the instrument panel have any electrical significance. I'm not
sure I understand your question.
>Is it possible to use a D-SUB connector for ground wire to be able to
>dismount the Instrument Panel ?
>
You betcha . . . but if it were my airplane, I'd consider first having
extra slack in a wire bundle that allows the panel to be dismounted
and set or tied aside for maintenance convenience. The slack can be
coiled up and tie-wrapped for flight. This has the advantage of being able
to OPERATE the systems with the panel displaced. But if adding the
connector is
attractive to you, it can be done with only slight reduction in reliability
and the extra hour or so it takes to accommodate the connector's
installation.
Bob . . .
Message 7
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Treff, Arthur" <Arthur.Treff@Smartm.com>
> I enjoy flying at night, so I'm interested in mounting some 'dome' lights in the front and rear baggage compartments for those times when I need to dig around in there at night. The "FAA approved" lights are in the neighborhood of $100 a copy. The automotive world's stuff is very large, heavy and bulky, or very cheesy quality. I have located a 4 LED solution for around $20, but not sure how much light it would throw. See it at: http://www.cfrlights.com/sdc.html#Step%20Lights
> Anyone have any other ideas?
>
> Arthur Treff
> RV-8 Fastback (wiring)
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Fastons Vs. Other |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gkb5577@aol.com
Okay, I've been following the debates on connectors. Because of some
arthritis I felt dissatisfied with crimp together terminals--and as far as I know
there are no Go-NoGo test strips for these. So: I've soldered as much of
everything that I could and instead of fast-ons have used screw-on terminal busses
(with loop terminal connectors). But here's a question: because of the talk
re. crimp-ons being air/gas tight ( of which I'm cynical, unless someone has
data to defend this) could one use small soft-malleable washers between the
terminals and the screw and bus terminal bases with the idea in mind to increase
air seal and increase connection area for electron transmission? Comments
AO? Geoff
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Current Limiters |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ernest Kells" <ernest.kells@sympatico.ca>
Bob and Matt: Thanks for the great help. Since I am so far along (FWF,
panel and most wiring finished) I think that I will replace the alternator
with a properly-sized one, then it will make for a better potential
solution. When I realized that the juice flows both ways through the master
relay I knew that my installation would have a problem in a low battery
situation.
Just didn't know how to formulate the question. I got caught the bad
decision of trying to save a big, new, certified alternator at all costs.
It is great to read well reasoned, logic-based emails like Mat's.
Thanks again. do not archive
> >
> >Aha... Okay, now I see what you are getting at.........Matt I
>>
> I was going to suggest that but thought I'd let him down easy.
> Now that you went and done it anyhow, I'll have to agree that
> if it were my airplane, I'd install an instrument/shunt combination
> that was sized to the task.......Bob
Message 10
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| Subject: | Anderson Power Pole connectors |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ronald J. Parigoris" <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Hello Aeroelectric
I fool with electric model RC. Have fooled with a number of different connectors
from
15 to 100 amp.
My favorite, are the Anderson Power Pole connectors, for their ease of
assembly/disassembly and low impedance connections. They can be jigsaw assembled
so
they can only be connected proper. You can add as many connections as you need.
I am building an Europa, and am thinking about using them for wing wiring for
position/strobes, and for a most likely removable main wheel fairing/landing light.
What thoughts on using anderson powerpoles?
Thx.
Ron Parigoris
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Inductive current measuring device .... |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John R <jrourke@allied-computer.com>
Hi Jim,
If you want both charge and discharge indications on a single meter,
then you have to put the shunt (or whatever you're using to read the
current) it in the battery circuit (preferably at the battery) - not on
the alternator circuit. If you put it in the alternator circuit, you
only have an alternator loadmeter.
I'm thinking of doing both - if I wanted to I suppose I could even
switch between them, but I'm probably just going to put one on a meter,
and one to the engine monitor.
-John R.
Jim Sower wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jim Sower <canarder@frontiernet.net>
>
>Now THAT could be a solution. It takes a lot of panel space, but that might be
>negotiable. I checked the specs for the AMP25 and AMP200 and figured they would
>need some supporting circuitry. I was hoping I could maybe connect it to the
>meter I have after removing the shunt and get the accuracy I need (vaguely
>accurate, charge and discharge magnitudes). Guess not. The CS50P would "plug
>and play" and I could open up the panel hole to accept it.
>Thanks a million for the heads up ... Jim S.
>
>Trampas wrote:
>
>
>
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Trampas" <tstern@nc.rr.com>
>>
>>Jim,
>>
>>Try http://www.ampsense.com/
>>
>>Trampas
>>
>>... snip ...What I need is something I can wire directly to a meter. ...
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Microair CS experiment update |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mark Phillips <ripsteel@edge.net>
Thanks to all who replied- looks like it's going postal!
Mark - do not archive
Chris Byrne wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Chris Byrne" <jcbyrne@ozemail.com.au>
>
> Mark
>
> If your sending it to Australia, send it Via the post. Its light and wont
> cost much. I sent a package about the same size (slightly lighter) to the
> States 18mths ago, it took about 4 days and cost about $6.00 US.
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Current Limiters |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 11:35 AM 10/31/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ernest Kells"
><ernest.kells@sympatico.ca>
>
>Bob and Matt: Thanks for the great help. Since I am so far along (FWF,
>panel and most wiring finished) I think that I will replace the alternator
>with a properly-sized one,
??? what's "improper" about the size of the present
alternator?
> . . . then it will make for a better potential
>solution. When I realized that the juice flows both ways through the master
>relay I knew that my installation would have a problem in a low battery
>situation.
>
>Just didn't know how to formulate the question. I got caught the bad
>decision of trying to save a big, new, certified alternator at all costs.
>It is great to read well reasoned, logic-based emails like Mat's.
I think we've charged out into left field. . . . Keep in mind
that during the last years that Cessna was building EVERY single-engine
aircraft as 28 volt machine with a 60A alternator. This fitted the
C-150 with 1700 watts of capacity in an airframe that would probably
never use more than 25% of that amount.
Let's back up and consider (1) you have a perfectly good working
alternator with plenty of capacity for the way you plan to use
the airplane. (2) All alternators should be sized with some
head-room . . . capacity over and above anticipated loads so
that the excess can recharge the battery. (3) The FAA is fond
of suggesting boundaries on this excess . . . as I recall, they
reached into a hat and pulled out some statement like "an alternator
shall not be loaded to more than 75% of it's output capacity".
Okay, the C-140 was certified with a 20A generator. Under these
guidelines, we would reserve 5A of this output for battery recharging.
If you had a dead 24 a.h. battery, propped the airplane and took off
with all your electro-whizzies running, then you would NOT recharge
the battery before you hand to land because it's time to stop
for fuel.
On the other hand, if you STC'd a 60A machine on this
same airplane, the FAA would want you to fence off 15A of the
alternator's capacity which says that if you add 30 additional
amps of electro-whizzies, you'll get your dead battery recharged
in about 1.6 hours.
Okay, suppose you put your OWN boundary
on headroom and install a 70A machine on an airplane that will
probably never run more than 30A of loads. Now, you can recharge
a totally dead battery in just over 30 minutes. How is this
a "bad thing"?
You've admitted to some "bad judgement" where I'm having
trouble figuring out what's bad about it. As I've suggested
to others, lets see what you have in hand, what you want to
achieve in the finished product and then figure out the
most attractive combination of parts and techniques will
get this done. My perception is that you're belabored with
some erroneous or at least mis-understood concepts.
Bob . . .
Message 14
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brett Ferrell <bferrell@123mail.net>
I agree that the auto lights from like JC Whitney are cheesy, but I really liked
the lights from my VW Jetta, so I ordered them straight from the dealer for
$18. You can see what they look like at:
http://www.velocityxl.com/Fuselage_Complete.htm#15 - Fresh Air Duct
I particularly like these, because I have them wired into the door switches to
come on when the doors are opened and "fade out" shortly after they're closed,
but they also can be turned on individually without an extra (ugly) switch.
Brett
Quoting "Treff, Arthur" <Arthur.Treff@Smartm.com>:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Treff,
> Arthur" <Arthur.Treff@Smartm.com>
>
> > I enjoy flying at night, so I'm interested in
> mounting some 'dome' lights in the front and rear
> baggage compartments for those times when I need to
> dig around in there at night. The "FAA approved"
> lights are in the neighborhood of $100 a copy. The
> automotive world's stuff is very large, heavy and
> bulky, or very cheesy quality. I have located a 4 LED
> solution for around $20, but not sure how much light
> it would throw. See it at:
> http://www.cfrlights.com/sdc.html#Step%20Lights
> > Anyone have any other ideas?
> >
> > Arthur Treff
> > RV-8 Fastback (wiring)
> >
>
>
> Contributions
> any other
> Forums.
> http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm
> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>
>
>
>
--
Visit us at www.velocityxl.com
44VF Velocity XL/FG
I68 Cincinnati, OH
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Anderson Power Pole connectors |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 12:00 PM 10/31/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ronald J. Parigoris"
><rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
>
>Hello Aeroelectric
>
>I fool with electric model RC. Have fooled with a number of different
>connectors from
>15 to 100 amp.
>
>My favorite, are the Anderson Power Pole connectors, for their ease of
>assembly/disassembly and low impedance connections. They can be jigsaw
>assembled so
>they can only be connected proper. You can add as many connections as you
>need.
>
>I am building an Europa, and am thinking about using them for wing wiring for
>position/strobes, and for a most likely removable main wheel
>fairing/landing light.
>
>What thoughts on using anderson powerpoles?
I believe this is the series of connectors B&C supplies with
the SD-8 installation kit. The full range of products
is viewable at:
http://www.andersonpower.com/products/pp/pp.html#
These have a pretty good record on B&C's products. If
you really gotta have a connector somewhere, these should
be considered. Of course, they are specific to high current
applications and I've only seen wire-bundle to wire-bundle
mating sets.
Bob . . .
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Fastons Vs. Other |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 10:49 AM 10/31/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gkb5577@aol.com
>
> Okay, I've been following the debates on connectors. Because of some
>arthritis I felt dissatisfied with crimp together terminals--and as far as
>I know
>there are no Go-NoGo test strips for these. So: I've soldered as much of
>everything that I could and instead of fast-ons have used screw-on
>terminal busses
>(with loop terminal connectors). But here's a question: because of the talk
>re. crimp-ons being air/gas tight ( of which I'm cynical, unless someone has
>data to defend this)
Do you have data that contradicts this?
>. . . could one use small soft-malleable washers between the
>terminals and the screw and bus terminal bases with the idea in mind to
>increase
>air seal and increase connection area for electron transmission?
Explain the mechanism by which introducing two interfacing surfaces
into a joint formerly comprised of only one interface surface
can have any beneficial effect in (1) reducing resistance of
the joint and/or (2) "improving the seal". I take it that you
have some information that shows that what must be billions
of solderless connections used in all manner of vehicle over
the past 70 years are at-risk?
> Comments?
Oh you betcha. Please review
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/terminal.pdf
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/rules/review.html
Please quote and then elaborate on any part of the above
that gives you pause . . .
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Ground loop ... |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
> >I know the 24/24-Tab Firewall Ground Kit (and all the other B&C products
> >!) and it is on my order too !
Devil's advocate...
I wonder sometimes why B&C even bothers selling the 24/24 and not just the
48/24. Everybody I know who went with the 24/24 seemed either to run out of
tabs on the cockpit side of the firewall, or they just barely made it. For
another 9 bucks, the 48 seems like a no-brainer to me. Not like it takes up
*that* much more real estate or weighs that much more. Worth it for the
options it opens up, I believe.
Hard to imagine, when you're first planning, that you could come up with
more than 24 ground wires in the cabin. But if you're building an
IFR-equipped plane and using Bob's single point of ground philosophy (why
wouldn't you?), and have any intention of adding anything in the future,
seems to me you'd want to set up more options from the get-go.
Ok, sorry, had to babble, do not archive
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Fastons Vs. Other |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John R <jrourke@allied-computer.com>
Gkb5577@aol.com wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gkb5577@aol.com
>
> Okay, I've been following the debates on connectors. Because of some
>arthritis I felt dissatisfied with crimp together terminals--and as far as I know
>there are no Go-NoGo test strips for these.
>
Actually, there's something better, especially considering your
arthritis: ratchet-style crimpers. If you don't squeeze it enough to
release the ratchet, it's not done. If you do, it is.
-John
(P.S. Of course, there's never a guarantee - but in light of your
situation, this is as good a solution as you're going to find - do a
calibrated pull-test every so often, if you like, but once the tool is
setup correctly, it shouldn't vary much over hundreds of crimps.)
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Ground loop ... |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Michel RIAZUELO" <mt.riazuelo@wanadoo.fr>
Hi Dan,
> Devil's advocate...
> I wonder sometimes why B&C even bothers selling the 24/24 and not just the
> 48/24.
Only 48/24, why not ?
200 HP and never less for a two seat aircraft, why not ?
IFR or traffic jam in a car, why not ?
As you know, France is infinitely smaller than US.
For this reason, the homebuilt aicrafts are less ambitious!
Since the beginning of my project I always reason starting from "SMALL IS BEAUTIFULL".
Two comfortable seats, with a panoramic visibility, 230 kg empty, 490 kg max weight,
80 HP, a fixed wood/composite propeller and a 140 Kts cruising. It is the
small and beautifull equation of my MCR SPORTSTER.
I promise to you that I sent an email the day when I would have a wire to plug
to the FULL B&C 24/24 ground block, to invite you to drink Champagne ! Please
comme in Cholet (France) with your Van's RV-7 ....
Do not archive . just for joke.
Michel
MCR SPORTSTER in progress...
PS : I had a walk all around your http://www.rvproject.com . I am very impressed, and it not a joke !!!
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: getting the horse back out in front of the |
cart . . .
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jim Sower <canarder@frontiernet.net>
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote:
> ????? That's what a shunt does for you. Let's you measure
> current in a remote location on tiny wires irrespective of
> how much current is being measured/monitored.
I knew ammeters had a shunt. Are you saying that I could remove the shunt from
the meter on
the panel and remote it all the way back to the firewall (Velocity) and run a pair
of 26
gauge wires back to the panel and connect directly to the movement (or something
analogous to
this with an off-the-shelf calibrated shunt)? That might solve the problem if
the "movement"
of the current meter was any good or I could obtain an easily installable substitute.
>
> > I still have charging voltage, so it's no great loss. Don't trust the
> > meter anyway. It stays on 15-20 amps charge and doesn't move all that
> > much when system is charging a
> >low battery.
>
> What is the basis for your distrust? If you have a loadmeter now
> that behaves as you describe, it COULD be entirely accurate. A soggy
> battery recharges at relatively slow rates (especially if your
> bus voltage is set too low) and the "constant charge reading"
> may simply be the sum total of equipment loads (relatively
> constant) + a small charging value for battery.
Actually, it reads 15-20 amps charge with everything in the airplane turned off
(like that's
where it lives). It shows a much smaller movement toward discharge than I believe
is
actually happening when I turn everything on, and shows maybe 25-30 amps (5-10
net) charge in
flight. Very small indications zeroed at 15-20 amps. Charging voltage OTOH starts
at
13-13.5 after start after long period of inactivity and builds toward 14.5. Ammeter
doesn't
move much. Shows maybe 10 A max charge when alternator (interpreting charging
voltage)
appears to be pretty much at capacity.
>
>
> Lack of trust simply means "lack of understanding" . . . if
> you know the instrument is bogus, why leave it in the airplane?
The power supply to most of the airplane passes through this ammeter. If I took
it out, I
would have to install a terminal stud very nearby to house the cables going to/from
the
meter. It's basically a terminal block right now, and not at all an easy one to
get at..
>
> If you haven't checked it for proper operation, then it may
> very well be trying to tell you something useful about
> what's going on in your airplane.
I described above what I've observed. I don't believe it's telling me anything
particularly
useful. I was hoping one of the inductive units would come with all that was needed
to play
including display. No such luck.
>
>
> > As you say, besides the sensor, I'd have to have a power supply and
> > display device. Way more trouble than it's worth.
> >Don't guess there is a solution simple enough to meet my meager electronic
> >abilities ... Jim S.
>
> I'm not sure that's true. Your earliest postings on this
> thread was "how do I do this?" . . . for which you received
> some useful and lucid replies. Now, I sense from your
> responses that you've not yet explored "what do I need?"
Agreed. I was not forthcoming with all the facts, guessing that they weren't pivotal
considerations.
>
> "how is it useful to me as a pilot/maintainer of an airplane"
> and "what is the most efficient way of achieving that
> performance?"
It would be nice to have a loadmeter, but charging voltage is enough information
to get by so
absence of a loadmeter is an inconvenience but certainly not a show stopper. Since
all of
the output of the alternator goes to the firewall mounted Alt relay and thence
to the Master
relay and on to either the battery or the busses, that area is the only place to
reaslitically measure current flow. Gathering that data and remoting it to an
appropriate
display on the panel is my challenge.
>
>
> I'm working with a group of folks on a six-sigma team with
> a mission to improve communications and collective understanding
> amongst 800 engineers spread in little clumps over a square
> mile. The initial thrust of many efforts like this is to
> start gathering answers. I've suggested that questions are
> more important than answers. If you don't ask all the questions
> and place them in some logical order of significance, then
> whatever answers are assembled at random (while perfectly accurate)
> may not reveal solutions to a problem. Your question was
> too far down the road so folks who answered could only assume
> that the earlier studies to lay foundation were already understood.
> This appears not to be the case.
Agreed.
>
>
> Let's back up a bit and have you explain what you have now,
> how and why it falls short of your perceptions of what you
> need and THEN figure out the combination of hardware that
> fits your requirements for space, weight, cost and
> relative complexity.
OK. You asked for it. Here's [the mess] that came at me with the plane:
From the Alt side of the split master switch, there's a 2-conductor shielded 24-26
AWG wire
that originally went (both conductors wired in parallel) to the "F" terminal of
an internally
regulated 40 amp alternator (which went south). I replaced that unit with an externally
regulated (generic Ford regulator) also 40 amp unit that I owned, using the in-place
parallel
wires to excite the regulator. Output from the alternator runs about 10" through
8- or
10-gauge cable and passes through a 1.5" x 1.5" x 0.5" metal box with 1/4" terminals
on each
side and a mounting flange (I'm told this is a fusible link) and thence for about
10' to the
ammeter in the instrument panel. From the ammeter, another 10' run of 10 gauge
wire returns
to the firewall mounted master solenoid and another foot or so to the battery.
That's about
a 20' run of 10 gauge wire to charge the battery (I didn't like that at all on
account of
line losses). There was no over voltage protection on the original internally
regulated
alternator and only what the Ford regulator gave me on the other unit.
What I've done:
I have split the two conductors from the Alt switch to the alternator. One circuit
goes from
the essential buss through a small LED indicator and connects to the "A" conductor
of the
pair. At the other end (in the engine compartment) it goes straight to the "I"
spade
terminal on the alternator where it is grounded (and lights the light) until the
alternator
comes on line and then is reversed biased to no voltage and the light goes out.
The original
output from the Alt switch connects to the "B" conductor of the pair at the instrument
panel. In the engine compartment near the alternator the "B" lead splits, one
lead going to
the "F" terminal on the alternator, the other back to the forward firewall, through
a fuze to
the Alt relay. The B&C crowbar goes from that terminal to ground. I ran a 10
gauge cable
from the alternator B+ to the Alt relay. and a short #10 from the output side of
the Alt
relay to the output side of the Master relay. From there the original alternator
output
cable as well as the charging cable run in parallel to the ammeter on the panel.
Charging current from the alternator goes pretty much the most direct route (through
the Alt
relay) to the battery. I have parallel 10 gauge cables carrying current to the
instrument
panel area.. Since there were two #10 cables in place as well as the 2-conductor
#24 run
from panel to firewall, I didn't have to run any additional wire through the
difficult-to-work-with chase from the firewall to the instrument panel. An event
that drove
me NUTS for the past two days is the Alt relay. I ordered a master relay from
Wick's and
finally figured out that the activating terminal is not (as I had assumed) grounded
to the
relay case, but to one of the current carrying posts. The crowbar circuit as well
as the
indicator needs it to be grounded to the case. That will set me back about a week,
finding
and obtaining a suitable unit.
I really appreciate your help on this.
Regards, Jim Sower
Message 21
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: N1deltawhiskey@aol.com
In a message dated 10/31/2003 7:19:28 AM Pacific Standard Time,
Arthur.Treff@Smartm.com writes:
> I have located a 4 LED solution for around $20, but not sure how much light
> it would throw.
Art,
I found a small "step light" about 5/8" x 2" (approx from recollection), that
utilizes LEDs. It is made by Hella. Got it from West Marine for about $12,
I think.
The unit I have has red LED's (also comes in white, and orange-yellow I
think). I tried it out last weekend. Positioned at the roof of the Glastar behind
the pilot, it will light the entire forward baggage area. Would need another
unit to do the aft part. Am also thinking of putting a couple under the
glareshield to lite the footwells for the stuff that drops down there. I tried
this after dusk with the lights in the hanger out, and thought the units
provided all the light in those area that I would need at nite.
Doug Windhorn
Message 22
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| Subject: | All New Matronics Email List Online Chat!!! |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
Hi Listers!
A number of Listers have been asking for some Matronics Email List online
chat and NOW ITS HERE! Over the last couple of days I've set up a nifty
web-based Chat site here on the Matronics systems. No special programs to
download; all you need is a late model web browser like Internet Explorer
or Netscape with a java plugin. I would recommend downloading the latest
Java plugin if you experience any problems getting the page to come
up. Here's a link to the Sun Java download
website. http://java.com/en/index.jsp Look for the green box with the
yellow arrow in the upper right corner. Before you bother, though, just
try you browser because it'll probably just work.
Each Email List on Matronics has its own "Room" and all rooms can easily be
accessed from the same client. In the Email List URL Trailer at the bottom
of each List message, you'll find the Link to this List's specific Chat
Room. Just click on the Link, and then type in your name or email address
in the User Name box. Try to use a name or email address that the other
Listers know you by. You'll find me lurking around the various List chat
rooms as "MattDralle".
There's a couple of nifty features I'll explain right off. On the main
Chat Window page after you login, you'll see a little icon with a Hammer
and a Screwdriver. This is the Control Panel window. Once the Control
Panel comes up, click on the "Settings" tab. Here you'll find, among other
things, three check boxes to enable sound. Click all three and you'll be
treated to a sound whenever someone enters or leaves the Room, or when
someone sends a message.
The other cool button is the one that has four little arrows pointing to
each of the four corners of the button. This will rip the main Chat window
from the web page and allow you to resize and move it anyway you'd like.
Let's have some fun and get to know one another better using this awesome
new Chat Room! To get started, just click the URL Link below for this
List's specific Chat Room!
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Admin
PS - I'm working on a web link interface to the chat logfiles. Coming soon...
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