Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:26 AM - Re: Electrical wire ... (Benford2@aol.com)
2. 05:04 AM - Re: Electrical wire ... (Alex Peterson)
3. 05:31 AM - Re: Electrical wire ... (John Schroeder)
4. 06:34 AM - Re: Dual Alts (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 07:52 AM - Some general thoughts on noise (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 08:01 AM - Re: New Fuse Block from marine supplier (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 09:00 AM - Re:Ground wire (John Szantho)
8. 09:35 AM - SecuringCircuitBreakers (DAVID REEL)
9. 11:16 AM - Microair T2000 Transponder problems (czechsix@juno.com)
10. 12:46 PM - Breaker Spacing (Philip Hildebrand)
11. 01:01 PM - Re: SecuringCircuitBreakers (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
12. 02:05 PM - Re: Breaker Spacing (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
13. 02:52 PM - Re: Breaker Spacing (Dj Merrill)
14. 03:03 PM - Re: Microair T2000 Transponder problems (Roger Roy)
15. 05:34 PM - Re: Breaker Spacing (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
16. 05:59 PM - Re: Microair T2000 Transponder problems (Scott, Ian)
17. 07:44 PM - Push to Test (David Schaefer)
18. 08:06 PM - Re: Microair T2000 Transponder problems (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
19. 08:09 PM - Re: Some general thoughts on noise (Jim Sower)
20. 08:33 PM - Push to Test (Hebeard2@aol.com)
21. 08:49 PM - Copper strap vs. cable for short runs (Steve Hamer)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Electrical wire ... |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com
In a message dated 11/2/2003 10:31:11 PM Mountain Standard Time,
canarder@frontiernet.net writes:
>
> Some time a while back there was a thread about sources of
> aircraft wiring. Like the guys at OSH and SnF fly markets who
> sell wire and ties and etc. for about half what ACS and Wicks
> get.
> Can anyone give me a link to some of those folks? ... Jim S.
>
Six moths or so ago when I was wiring my 801 I found a company in Tenn that
had several colors in tfzl. I will dig through my stuff and get ya the name. I
do remember they were real nice people to do business with.
Ben Haas N801BH.
Message 2
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| Subject: | Electrical wire ... |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson@usjet.net>
> Some time a while back there was a thread about sources of
> aircraft wiring. Like the guys at OSH and SnF fly markets
> who sell wire and ties and etc. for about half what ACS and
> Wicks get. Can anyone give me a link to some of those folks?
> ... Jim S.
Try:
www.steinair.com
Alex Peterson
Maple Grove, MN
RV6-A N66AP 397 hours
www.usfamily.net/web/alexpeterson
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Electrical wire ... |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Schroeder <jschroeder@perigee.net>
Jim:
Try Wiremasters 1 800-635-5342 and ask for Deb Sullivan. They have very
good prices. eg. RG400 is $.86 per foot and 22759 20awg is $.051/ft.
Tell her John Schroeder recommended them to you.
Cheers,
John
Message 4
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 07:10 PM 11/2/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Butcher" <europa@triton.net>
>
>Hi Bob,
>
>Still havent figured out how to reply on the list. Anyway, thanks for
>your comments.
You just hit "reply" . . . and type your response . . . like you
just did.
>For load analysis, VFR day
>
>Strobes 2.9 A
>Fuel Pumps 2 @ 2 4A (Do both of these pumps run all the time?)
>EFIS 5A
>Audio Pnl 2.2A (this is too much for an audio panel . . . maybe this is
>PEAK amps)
>AOA .3A
>Eng Elec 1.3A
>GNS 430 3 A
>GI 106 .5 A
>EFIS BU 2A
>GTX 327 1 A
>Total 22.3 A
>
>For night add
>
>Pos Lites 7.4 A
>Pitot 15 A A 100w pitot tube peaks at 15A during turnon but runs
>just over 8A continuous.
Further, anytime you need pitot heat (in clouds),
exterior lights should
be OFF. So adding pitot heat is a wash for taking the
lighting down.)
As I've mentioned before, the real IFR-Night max load is
typically 27A.
This is still too much for the 18A rotax + 10A pad
driven alternator.
>Got some good ideas from paul Wilson using belt to drive alt on rear of
>engine.
I'd sure explore this option. If you use an automotive
take-off
alternator, the difference in costs may even be lower than
buying and SD-20 and adding pad to engine. Best yet, you
can have
all the power you need.
Bob . . .
Message 5
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| Subject: | Some general thoughts on noise |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
>Let's go back to your original problem. Are you suspecting that you are
>getting radiated noise from the ammeter's connection all the way back to
>the shunt? If so, perhaps a shielded wire would be a simpler solution. You
>could also arrange a choke similar to Bob's guide, which would filter out
>some of the noise at the expense of reducing the response rate of the
>meter (not that you'd probably notice - it wouldn't be on the order of
>seconds...)
Shielded wires are almost never beneficial with noise reduction
on wires associated with power distribution and generation. Shielding
will only mitigate electro-static coupling between a potential antagonist
(very high frequency and or very fast rise-time voltage waveforms)
and potential victim wires (low level signal wires in audio and other
avionics
systems are typical).
>Normally, this shouldn't be the source. Despite the presence of noise in
>the signal, there isn't much current flowing (it's 0.05V max applied to
>the meter, usually) so the radiated noise from an ammeter won't be very
>large. That is, your antenna is large/long in this case, but the power
>into it is small.
>
>You might also be well served by routing this connection elsewhere, but
>you might want to investigate other noise sources. Or have you
>disconnected the wire and the noise goes away?
>
>Bob, can you provide any insight as to the frequencies a choke would need
>to cover to filter out alternator noise? Or is the choke modification you
>describe in one of your articles already suitable for that? I'm making an
>assumption again but it sounds like Jim might find that type of solution
>useful.
An inductor that will efficiently smooth alternator
ripple on the alternator's b-lead is bigger and heavier
than the alternator. I don't think the noise he's getting
is radiated in any way. It may be magnetically coupled (vicitm
wires running parallel to antagonist wires) or hard wired noise
like a ground-loop. Poor grounding techniques account for the
vast majority of noise coupling from one system to another.
Bob . . .
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: New Fuse Block from marine supplier |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>I work for a large boat manufacturing company and at a trade show in Miami
>this past week found a very nice fuse block that will be introduced to
>the market within the next two months http://www.bluesea.com (Don't pay
>attention to their "Now Shipping" banner on their web page. They aren't
>available yet. I called them yesterday and said they are in the final
>production de-bugging)
>
>The overall advantage is that they are very well thought out, have 12
>positions (a 6-slot unit is in development but nothing larger on the
>horizon), include ground terminals and translucent cover. Not sure about
>price. I plan to use two - one for my switched bus and one for my
>essential bus on the GlaStar I'm building, mounting them above the
>footwells, behind the IP (similar to an automobile). I'll then have a
>battery-fed fuse block mounted in the panel with the feeds for my CDI
>ignition systems.
>
>These units are intended for surface mounting - the screw terminals are on
>the "front" of the unit.
The fuseblock is "purdy" but I would offer these thoughts:
(1) It features threaded fasteners for wires. I personally work to
reduce the use of threaded fasteners to a minimum for all new
designs.
(2) The "ground" busses need a wire to a real ground . . .
a single point of failure for every system that shares
the ground bus on the fuseblock.
(3) Last, the need for grounds almost always outnumber the
need for + supply leads . . . There is a version of the
fuseblocks on B&C's website catalog that come with a
'ground bus' on and extended baseplate. While this ground
bus featured fast-on terminals, it still needed a jumper
wire to real ground and there weren't enough of them.
I can't recommend this product for use in an airplane for reasons
cited above.
Bob . . .
Message 7
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Szantho" <szantho@usa.com>
Bob,
Thanks for your help on my ground wire question.
John Szantho RV9-A Wings
Message 8
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| Subject: | SecuringCircuitBreakers |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "DAVID REEL" <dreel@cox.net>
When I tighten the nuts on my Potter & Brumfield alternator circuit breaker such
that the threaded shank just protrudes above the switch panel, the body of the
breaker retains a small amount of free movement. It is not solidly fixed to
the threaded shank. Is this by design or is my unit faulty? I only have the
one to judge by. Or maybe the bottom nut should be backed down the shaft until
it serves double duty, securing the breaker body to the threaded shank?
Dave Reel - RV8A
Message 9
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| Subject: | Microair T2000 Transponder problems |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: czechsix@juno.com
Guys,
A friend of mine, Alan Kritzman, has had problems with his Microair T2000 tranponder
installed in his RV-8, and since I have the same unit but am not flying
yet, I'm posting this to ask if anyone else has had the same trouble.
The symptoms are very repeatable: whenever taking off out of a controlled field
with radar service, the controllers always say they are not picking up the transponder.
After the aircraft is about 5 miles from the airport, the power is
cycled using the transponders on/off button and then the tower picks up the signal
normally. If the flight originates from a nearby uncontrolled field, the
controllers pick the the transponder normally when approaching the towered airport
without having to cycle power on the unit. The coax has been replaced
and the antenna replaced and moved in attempts to fix the problem. Then Alan
took his transponder out and sent it back to Microair in Australia for repairs,
and while it was gone, he installed my identical transponder in his airplane
with the same problem. A few days ago he got a brand new and different unit
back from Microair and it too exhibits the same problem.
Anybody else flying out of Class C or other facility with radar that has experienced
this problem? Or, any idea what could cause it in terms of the installation
as opposed to the transponder itself?
Thanks,
--Mark Navratil
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
RV-8A N2D finishing...
Message 10
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Philip Hildebrand <phildebrand@pritchardindustrial.com>
In spite of your recommendations I am planning on using breakers
instead of fuses. Could you please advise the standard breaker spacing both
vertical and horizontal. Thanks.
Philip Hildebrand
email: phildebrand@pritchardindustrial.com
<mailto:phildebrand@pritchardindustrial.com>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<META NAME"Generator" CONTENT"MS Exchange Server version 5.5.2650.12">
Breaker Spacing
In spite of your recommendations I am planning on using breakers instead of fuses.
Could you please advise the standard breaker spacing both vertical and horizontal.
Thanks.
<A NAME"_MailAutoSig">Philip Hildebrand
email: <A HREF"mailto:phildebrand@pritchardindustrial.com">phildebrand@pritchardindustrial.com
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: SecuringCircuitBreakers |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 12:36 PM 11/3/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "DAVID REEL" <dreel@cox.net>
>
>When I tighten the nuts on my Potter & Brumfield alternator circuit
>breaker such that the threaded shank just protrudes above the switch
>panel, the body of the breaker retains a small amount of free
>movement. It is not solidly fixed to the threaded shank. Is this by
>design or is my unit faulty? I only have the one to judge by. Or maybe
>the bottom nut should be backed down the shaft until it serves double
>duty, securing the breaker body to the threaded shank?
>
>Dave Reel - RV8A
Switches and breakers with threaded bushings should be mounted with two nuts,
one on top and the other behind the panel. The nut behind the panel
should not
put pressure on the body of the breaker or switch. Given what I know of
how these things are assembled, I don't think the rotational play you
describe is any indication that the breaker is faulty.
Bob . . .
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Breaker Spacing |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 02:47 PM 11/3/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Philip Hildebrand
><phildebrand@pritchardindustrial.com>
>
> In spite of your recommendations I am planning on using breakers
>instead of fuses. Could you please advise the standard breaker spacing both
>vertical and horizontal. Thanks.
There's nothing "wrong" with breakers, there's a whole lot
more breakers flying than there are fuses. My suggestion
is that they're poor value. They're heavier, more costly,
take up more space in the airplane and then just sit there
for lifetime of the airplane having nothing to do that's
any more useful than a fuse would do.
Spacing depends first on size of devices . . . obviously,
one can space them right against each other with just enough
clearance for maintenance . . . but if the devices are small,
human factors may override. One needs to put their fingers
on panel mounted things to operate them and labels for telling
us what the thing does should be big enough to read. The general
rule for lettering is a nice block letter like FUTURA in .1"
high is the smallest recommended lettering.
Make a sketch. Start out with them pushed together tightly
and then see what your panel placard will look like to label
them. This exercise will quickly reveal whether or not
they need to be spread out.
Bob . . .
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Breaker Spacing |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dj Merrill <deej@thayer.dartmouth.edu>
On Mon, 2003-11-03 at 17:05, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> There's nothing "wrong" with breakers, there's a whole lot
> more breakers flying than there are fuses. My suggestion
> is that they're poor value. They're heavier, more costly,
> take up more space in the airplane and then just sit there
> for lifetime of the airplane having nothing to do that's
> any more useful than a fuse would do.
Hi Bob,
Cessnas and such seem to have circuit breakers in addition
to a separate line of switches for controlling power.
In my plane I have the type of circuit breakers that
have the switches built into them, so there is only
one device instead of two (switches plus breakers).
The plane came this way, so I am unlikely to change it, but
I was just curious, what are your thoughts on these?
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill Thayer School of Engineering
ThUG Sr. Unix Systems Administrator 8000 Cummings Hall
deej@thayer.dartmouth.edu - N1JOV Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH 03755
"On the side of the software box, in the 'System Requirements' section,
it said 'Requires Windows 95 or better'. So I installed Linux."
-Anonymous
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Microair T2000 Transponder problems |
Seal-Send-Time: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 18:03:13 -0500
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Roger Roy" <Savannah174@msn.com>
Geez Louise!!!!!! I just installed a T-2000 in my 701 I wonder if that problem
will also be incurred, Cheers
Roger J. Roy
----- Original Message -----
From: czechsix@juno.com
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com ; rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 2:15 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Microair T2000 Transponder problems
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: czechsix@juno.com
Guys,
A friend of mine, Alan Kritzman, has had problems with his Microair T2000 tranponder
installed in his RV-8, and since I have the same unit but am not flying
yet, I'm posting this to ask if anyone else has had the same trouble.
The symptoms are very repeatable: whenever taking off out of a controlled field
with radar service, the controllers always say they are not picking up the
transponder. After the aircraft is about 5 miles from the airport, the power
is cycled using the transponders on/off button and then the tower picks up the
signal normally. If the flight originates from a nearby uncontrolled field,
the controllers pick the the transponder normally when approaching the towered
airport without having to cycle power on the unit. The coax has been replaced
and the antenna replaced and moved in attempts to fix the problem. Then Alan
took his transponder out and sent it back to Microair in Australia for repairs,
and while it was gone, he installed my identical transponder in his airplane
with the same problem. A few days ago he got a brand new and different unit
back from Microair and it too exhibits the same problem.
Anybody else flying out of Class C or other facility with radar that has experienced
this problem? Or, any idea what could cause it in terms of the installation
as opposed to the transponder itself?
Thanks,
--Mark Navratil
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
RV-8A N2D finishing...
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Breaker Spacing |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 05:52 PM 11/3/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dj Merrill
><deej@thayer.dartmouth.edu>
>
>On Mon, 2003-11-03 at 17:05, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
> > There's nothing "wrong" with breakers, there's a whole lot
> > more breakers flying than there are fuses. My suggestion
> > is that they're poor value. They're heavier, more costly,
> > take up more space in the airplane and then just sit there
> > for lifetime of the airplane having nothing to do that's
> > any more useful than a fuse would do.
>
>
>Hi Bob,
> Cessnas and such seem to have circuit breakers in addition
>to a separate line of switches for controlling power.
>In my plane I have the type of circuit breakers that
>have the switches built into them, so there is only
>one device instead of two (switches plus breakers).
>The plane came this way, so I am unlikely to change it, but
>I was just curious, what are your thoughts on these?
Circuit protection is located as close to the source
of energy that has any potential for burning a wire.
These power sources are commonly referred to as a "bus".
Switches are by definition, pilot operated controls and
usually arranged in some manner that satisfies the
human-factors side of the design. Not all circuits have
pilot operated switches, therefore, an airframe that
uses the switch-breaker will also have some of the more
conventional breakers on a separate panel located elsewhere.
Switch-breakers also force the fabrication of multiple
busses. The neat thing about fuse-blocks is that main,
aux and endurance busses can be located in close proximity
to each other and with no constraints driven by panel layout
or style of hardware. If the designer wishes to group switches
in something other than the contemporary one or two lines
of switches.
Switch breakers are much more expensive than a straight
switch and comes in fewer styles. The fuse-block bus feeds
can drive switches located anywhere in the airplane which
offers the ultimate flexibility to the designer. Just last
week, someone on the list was describing his own vision
of optimum switch placement that was anything but
contemporary.
I'll suggest that fuse-blocks combined with switches
of choice, arranged in accordance with the designer's
vision of optimum design are inexpensive, flexible to
the extreme and very low cost of ownership (i.e.
good return on investment).
Bob . . .
Message 16
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| Subject: | Microair T2000 Transponder problems |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Scott, Ian" <ian_scott@rslcom.com.au>
could it be an issue with the encoder?
Ian
-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Roy [mailto:Savannah174@msn.com]
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Microair T2000 Transponder problems
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Roger Roy" <Savannah174@msn.com>
Geez Louise!!!!!! I just installed a T-2000 in my 701 I wonder if that problem
will also be incurred, Cheers
Roger J. Roy
----- Original Message -----
From: czechsix@juno.com
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com ; rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 2:15 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Microair T2000 Transponder problems
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: czechsix@juno.com
Guys,
A friend of mine, Alan Kritzman, has had problems with his Microair T2000 tranponder
installed in his RV-8, and since I have the same unit but am not flying
yet, I'm posting this to ask if anyone else has had the same trouble.
The symptoms are very repeatable: whenever taking off out of a controlled field
with radar service, the controllers always say they are not picking up the
transponder. After the aircraft is about 5 miles from the airport, the power
is cycled using the transponders on/off button and then the tower picks up the
signal normally. If the flight originates from a nearby uncontrolled field,
the controllers pick the the transponder normally when approaching the towered
airport without having to cycle power on the unit. The coax has been replaced
and the antenna replaced and moved in attempts to fix the problem. Then Alan
took his transponder out and sent it back to Microair in Australia for repairs,
and while it was gone, he installed my identical transponder in his airplane
with the same problem. A few days ago he got a brand new and different unit
back from Microair and it too exhibits the same problem.
Anybody else flying out of Class C or other facility with radar that has experienced
this problem? Or, any idea what could cause it in terms of the installation
as opposed to the transponder itself?
Thanks,
--Mark Navratil
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
RV-8A N2D finishing...
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Message 17
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Schaefer" <dschaefer1@kc.rr.com>
Bob .. I would like to incorporate a push-to-test function on my warning
lamps (such as the voltage reg. etc.) Is it as simple as running a wire
from the ground side of all the lamps to a button that momentarily
grounds them? If not .. do you have a drawing?
Regards,
David
Message 18
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| Subject: | Microair T2000 Transponder problems |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 12:58 PM 11/4/2003 +1100, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Scott, Ian"
><ian_scott@rslcom.com.au>
>
>
>could it be an issue with the encoder?
The fact that this seems to happen only with local
radar sites and that it is common with several radios
suggests receiver overload in the T2000. The best
way to test for this is get a 20db attenuator and
put into the antenna line. This will cut both
incoming and outgoing signals way down in strength
as if the radar site were much further away.
Mark,
Have you discussed this with an avionics shop?
They should have an attenuator you can try.
Bob. . .
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Some general thoughts on noise |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jim Sower <canarder@frontiernet.net>
<... An inductor that will efficiently smooth alternator ripple on the alternator's
b-lead is
bigger and heavier than the alternator ...>
Agreed. What about brush noise? Would a couple of decent size capacitors on the
B+ terminal
of the alternator suppress brush noise significantly? Or is brush noise a problem,
given the
ripple?
I'm using the capacitors but always wondered if It's doing any good ... Jim S.
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote:
> -->
Message 20
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Hebeard2@aol.com
David,
You may want to think about adding a push to test for all of your warning
lights. In 1963 early in the 727 program, Boeing had such a momentary switch to
test many many warning lights in the cockpit. While in flight, a flight
engineer actuated this switch to demonstrate this new gee whiz feature to a customer.
When he released the switch all the lights remained ON! It not only can
happen, it did!
Harley
Message 21
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| Subject: | Copper strap vs. cable for short runs |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Steve Hamer" <s.hamer@verizon.net>
Bob,
I'm putting together a compact little assembly that will contain both the battery
and starter contactors as well as the shunt and current limiter. These are
mounted together on a panel approximately 3.5 by 7.5 inches, so they are very
close together. The problem is, they're so close together that making cables
is a problem. I have some eighth inch thick by half inch copper I could make
connections with. Is this acceptable? Pros and cons?
Thanks,
Steve
RV-6
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