---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 11/03/03: 21 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:26 AM - Re: Electrical wire ... (Benford2@aol.com) 2. 05:04 AM - Re: Electrical wire ... (Alex Peterson) 3. 05:31 AM - Re: Electrical wire ... (John Schroeder) 4. 06:34 AM - Re: Dual Alts (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 07:52 AM - Some general thoughts on noise (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 08:01 AM - Re: New Fuse Block from marine supplier (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 09:00 AM - Re:Ground wire (John Szantho) 8. 09:35 AM - SecuringCircuitBreakers (DAVID REEL) 9. 11:16 AM - Microair T2000 Transponder problems (czechsix@juno.com) 10. 12:46 PM - Breaker Spacing (Philip Hildebrand) 11. 01:01 PM - Re: SecuringCircuitBreakers (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 12. 02:05 PM - Re: Breaker Spacing (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 13. 02:52 PM - Re: Breaker Spacing (Dj Merrill) 14. 03:03 PM - Re: Microair T2000 Transponder problems (Roger Roy) 15. 05:34 PM - Re: Breaker Spacing (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 16. 05:59 PM - Re: Microair T2000 Transponder problems (Scott, Ian) 17. 07:44 PM - Push to Test (David Schaefer) 18. 08:06 PM - Re: Microair T2000 Transponder problems (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 19. 08:09 PM - Re: Some general thoughts on noise (Jim Sower) 20. 08:33 PM - Push to Test (Hebeard2@aol.com) 21. 08:49 PM - Copper strap vs. cable for short runs (Steve Hamer) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:26:53 AM PST US From: Benford2@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Electrical wire ... --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com In a message dated 11/2/2003 10:31:11 PM Mountain Standard Time, canarder@frontiernet.net writes: > > Some time a while back there was a thread about sources of > aircraft wiring. Like the guys at OSH and SnF fly markets who > sell wire and ties and etc. for about half what ACS and Wicks > get. > Can anyone give me a link to some of those folks? ... Jim S. > Six moths or so ago when I was wiring my 801 I found a company in Tenn that had several colors in tfzl. I will dig through my stuff and get ya the name. I do remember they were real nice people to do business with. Ben Haas N801BH. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:04:52 AM PST US From: "Alex Peterson" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Electrical wire ... --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" > Some time a while back there was a thread about sources of > aircraft wiring. Like the guys at OSH and SnF fly markets > who sell wire and ties and etc. for about half what ACS and > Wicks get. Can anyone give me a link to some of those folks? > ... Jim S. Try: www.steinair.com Alex Peterson Maple Grove, MN RV6-A N66AP 397 hours www.usfamily.net/web/alexpeterson ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:31:34 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Electrical wire ... From: John Schroeder --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Schroeder Jim: Try Wiremasters 1 800-635-5342 and ask for Deb Sullivan. They have very good prices. eg. RG400 is $.86 per foot and 22759 20awg is $.051/ft. Tell her John Schroeder recommended them to you. Cheers, John ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:34:49 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Dual Alts --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 07:10 PM 11/2/2003 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Butcher" > >Hi Bob, > >Still havent figured out how to reply on the list. Anyway, thanks for >your comments. You just hit "reply" . . . and type your response . . . like you just did. >For load analysis, VFR day > >Strobes 2.9 A >Fuel Pumps 2 @ 2 4A (Do both of these pumps run all the time?) >EFIS 5A >Audio Pnl 2.2A (this is too much for an audio panel . . . maybe this is >PEAK amps) >AOA .3A >Eng Elec 1.3A >GNS 430 3 A >GI 106 .5 A >EFIS BU 2A >GTX 327 1 A >Total 22.3 A > >For night add > >Pos Lites 7.4 A >Pitot 15 A A 100w pitot tube peaks at 15A during turnon but runs >just over 8A continuous. Further, anytime you need pitot heat (in clouds), exterior lights should be OFF. So adding pitot heat is a wash for taking the lighting down.) As I've mentioned before, the real IFR-Night max load is typically 27A. This is still too much for the 18A rotax + 10A pad driven alternator. >Got some good ideas from paul Wilson using belt to drive alt on rear of >engine. I'd sure explore this option. If you use an automotive take-off alternator, the difference in costs may even be lower than buying and SD-20 and adding pad to engine. Best yet, you can have all the power you need. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:52:13 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Some general thoughts on noise --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > >Let's go back to your original problem. Are you suspecting that you are >getting radiated noise from the ammeter's connection all the way back to >the shunt? If so, perhaps a shielded wire would be a simpler solution. You >could also arrange a choke similar to Bob's guide, which would filter out >some of the noise at the expense of reducing the response rate of the >meter (not that you'd probably notice - it wouldn't be on the order of >seconds...) Shielded wires are almost never beneficial with noise reduction on wires associated with power distribution and generation. Shielding will only mitigate electro-static coupling between a potential antagonist (very high frequency and or very fast rise-time voltage waveforms) and potential victim wires (low level signal wires in audio and other avionics systems are typical). >Normally, this shouldn't be the source. Despite the presence of noise in >the signal, there isn't much current flowing (it's 0.05V max applied to >the meter, usually) so the radiated noise from an ammeter won't be very >large. That is, your antenna is large/long in this case, but the power >into it is small. > >You might also be well served by routing this connection elsewhere, but >you might want to investigate other noise sources. Or have you >disconnected the wire and the noise goes away? > >Bob, can you provide any insight as to the frequencies a choke would need >to cover to filter out alternator noise? Or is the choke modification you >describe in one of your articles already suitable for that? I'm making an >assumption again but it sounds like Jim might find that type of solution >useful. An inductor that will efficiently smooth alternator ripple on the alternator's b-lead is bigger and heavier than the alternator. I don't think the noise he's getting is radiated in any way. It may be magnetically coupled (vicitm wires running parallel to antagonist wires) or hard wired noise like a ground-loop. Poor grounding techniques account for the vast majority of noise coupling from one system to another. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:01:07 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: New Fuse Block from marine supplier --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" >I work for a large boat manufacturing company and at a trade show in Miami >this past week found a very nice fuse block that will be introduced to >the market within the next two months http://www.bluesea.com (Don't pay >attention to their "Now Shipping" banner on their web page. They aren't >available yet. I called them yesterday and said they are in the final >production de-bugging) > >The overall advantage is that they are very well thought out, have 12 >positions (a 6-slot unit is in development but nothing larger on the >horizon), include ground terminals and translucent cover. Not sure about >price. I plan to use two - one for my switched bus and one for my >essential bus on the GlaStar I'm building, mounting them above the >footwells, behind the IP (similar to an automobile). I'll then have a >battery-fed fuse block mounted in the panel with the feeds for my CDI >ignition systems. > >These units are intended for surface mounting - the screw terminals are on >the "front" of the unit. The fuseblock is "purdy" but I would offer these thoughts: (1) It features threaded fasteners for wires. I personally work to reduce the use of threaded fasteners to a minimum for all new designs. (2) The "ground" busses need a wire to a real ground . . . a single point of failure for every system that shares the ground bus on the fuseblock. (3) Last, the need for grounds almost always outnumber the need for + supply leads . . . There is a version of the fuseblocks on B&C's website catalog that come with a 'ground bus' on and extended baseplate. While this ground bus featured fast-on terminals, it still needed a jumper wire to real ground and there weren't enough of them. I can't recommend this product for use in an airplane for reasons cited above. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:00:17 AM PST US From: "John Szantho" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re:Ground wire --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Szantho" Bob, Thanks for your help on my ground wire question. John Szantho RV9-A Wings ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:35:56 AM PST US From: "DAVID REEL" Subject: AeroElectric-List: SecuringCircuitBreakers --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "DAVID REEL" When I tighten the nuts on my Potter & Brumfield alternator circuit breaker such that the threaded shank just protrudes above the switch panel, the body of the breaker retains a small amount of free movement. It is not solidly fixed to the threaded shank. Is this by design or is my unit faulty? I only have the one to judge by. Or maybe the bottom nut should be backed down the shaft until it serves double duty, securing the breaker body to the threaded shank? Dave Reel - RV8A ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:16:25 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Microair T2000 Transponder problems From: czechsix@juno.com --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: czechsix@juno.com Guys, A friend of mine, Alan Kritzman, has had problems with his Microair T2000 tranponder installed in his RV-8, and since I have the same unit but am not flying yet, I'm posting this to ask if anyone else has had the same trouble. The symptoms are very repeatable: whenever taking off out of a controlled field with radar service, the controllers always say they are not picking up the transponder. After the aircraft is about 5 miles from the airport, the power is cycled using the transponders on/off button and then the tower picks up the signal normally. If the flight originates from a nearby uncontrolled field, the controllers pick the the transponder normally when approaching the towered airport without having to cycle power on the unit. The coax has been replaced and the antenna replaced and moved in attempts to fix the problem. Then Alan took his transponder out and sent it back to Microair in Australia for repairs, and while it was gone, he installed my identical transponder in his airplane with the same problem. A few days ago he got a brand new and different unit back from Microair and it too exhibits the same problem. Anybody else flying out of Class C or other facility with radar that has experienced this problem? Or, any idea what could cause it in terms of the installation as opposed to the transponder itself? Thanks, --Mark Navratil Cedar Rapids, Iowa RV-8A N2D finishing... ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:46:43 PM PST US From: Philip Hildebrand Subject: AeroElectric-List: Breaker Spacing --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Philip Hildebrand In spite of your recommendations I am planning on using breakers instead of fuses. Could you please advise the standard breaker spacing both vertical and horizontal. Thanks. Philip Hildebrand email: phildebrand@pritchardindustrial.com Breaker Spacing In spite of your recommendations I am planning on using breakers instead of fuses. Could you please advise the standard breaker spacing both vertical and horizontal. Thanks. Philip Hildebrand email: phildebrand@pritchardindustrial.com ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:01:58 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SecuringCircuitBreakers --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 12:36 PM 11/3/2003 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "DAVID REEL" > >When I tighten the nuts on my Potter & Brumfield alternator circuit >breaker such that the threaded shank just protrudes above the switch >panel, the body of the breaker retains a small amount of free >movement. It is not solidly fixed to the threaded shank. Is this by >design or is my unit faulty? I only have the one to judge by. Or maybe >the bottom nut should be backed down the shaft until it serves double >duty, securing the breaker body to the threaded shank? > >Dave Reel - RV8A Switches and breakers with threaded bushings should be mounted with two nuts, one on top and the other behind the panel. The nut behind the panel should not put pressure on the body of the breaker or switch. Given what I know of how these things are assembled, I don't think the rotational play you describe is any indication that the breaker is faulty. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:05:38 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Breaker Spacing --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 02:47 PM 11/3/2003 -0600, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Philip Hildebrand > > > In spite of your recommendations I am planning on using breakers >instead of fuses. Could you please advise the standard breaker spacing both >vertical and horizontal. Thanks. There's nothing "wrong" with breakers, there's a whole lot more breakers flying than there are fuses. My suggestion is that they're poor value. They're heavier, more costly, take up more space in the airplane and then just sit there for lifetime of the airplane having nothing to do that's any more useful than a fuse would do. Spacing depends first on size of devices . . . obviously, one can space them right against each other with just enough clearance for maintenance . . . but if the devices are small, human factors may override. One needs to put their fingers on panel mounted things to operate them and labels for telling us what the thing does should be big enough to read. The general rule for lettering is a nice block letter like FUTURA in .1" high is the smallest recommended lettering. Make a sketch. Start out with them pushed together tightly and then see what your panel placard will look like to label them. This exercise will quickly reveal whether or not they need to be spread out. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:52:29 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Breaker Spacing From: Dj Merrill --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dj Merrill On Mon, 2003-11-03 at 17:05, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > There's nothing "wrong" with breakers, there's a whole lot > more breakers flying than there are fuses. My suggestion > is that they're poor value. They're heavier, more costly, > take up more space in the airplane and then just sit there > for lifetime of the airplane having nothing to do that's > any more useful than a fuse would do. Hi Bob, Cessnas and such seem to have circuit breakers in addition to a separate line of switches for controlling power. In my plane I have the type of circuit breakers that have the switches built into them, so there is only one device instead of two (switches plus breakers). The plane came this way, so I am unlikely to change it, but I was just curious, what are your thoughts on these? -Dj -- Dj Merrill Thayer School of Engineering ThUG Sr. Unix Systems Administrator 8000 Cummings Hall deej@thayer.dartmouth.edu - N1JOV Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH 03755 "On the side of the software box, in the 'System Requirements' section, it said 'Requires Windows 95 or better'. So I installed Linux." -Anonymous ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:03:25 PM PST US From: "Roger Roy" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Microair T2000 Transponder problems Seal-Send-Time: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 18:03:13 -0500 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Roger Roy" Geez Louise!!!!!! I just installed a T-2000 in my 701 I wonder if that problem will also be incurred, Cheers Roger J. Roy ----- Original Message ----- From: czechsix@juno.com To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com ; rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 2:15 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Microair T2000 Transponder problems --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: czechsix@juno.com Guys, A friend of mine, Alan Kritzman, has had problems with his Microair T2000 tranponder installed in his RV-8, and since I have the same unit but am not flying yet, I'm posting this to ask if anyone else has had the same trouble. The symptoms are very repeatable: whenever taking off out of a controlled field with radar service, the controllers always say they are not picking up the transponder. After the aircraft is about 5 miles from the airport, the power is cycled using the transponders on/off button and then the tower picks up the signal normally. If the flight originates from a nearby uncontrolled field, the controllers pick the the transponder normally when approaching the towered airport without having to cycle power on the unit. The coax has been replaced and the antenna replaced and moved in attempts to fix the problem. Then Alan took his transponder out and sent it back to Microair in Australia for repairs, and while it was gone, he installed my identical transponder in his airplane with the same problem. A few days ago he got a brand new and different unit back from Microair and it too exhibits the same problem. Anybody else flying out of Class C or other facility with radar that has experienced this problem? Or, any idea what could cause it in terms of the installation as opposed to the transponder itself? Thanks, --Mark Navratil Cedar Rapids, Iowa RV-8A N2D finishing... ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:34:19 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Breaker Spacing --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 05:52 PM 11/3/2003 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dj Merrill > > >On Mon, 2003-11-03 at 17:05, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > There's nothing "wrong" with breakers, there's a whole lot > > more breakers flying than there are fuses. My suggestion > > is that they're poor value. They're heavier, more costly, > > take up more space in the airplane and then just sit there > > for lifetime of the airplane having nothing to do that's > > any more useful than a fuse would do. > > >Hi Bob, > Cessnas and such seem to have circuit breakers in addition >to a separate line of switches for controlling power. >In my plane I have the type of circuit breakers that >have the switches built into them, so there is only >one device instead of two (switches plus breakers). >The plane came this way, so I am unlikely to change it, but >I was just curious, what are your thoughts on these? Circuit protection is located as close to the source of energy that has any potential for burning a wire. These power sources are commonly referred to as a "bus". Switches are by definition, pilot operated controls and usually arranged in some manner that satisfies the human-factors side of the design. Not all circuits have pilot operated switches, therefore, an airframe that uses the switch-breaker will also have some of the more conventional breakers on a separate panel located elsewhere. Switch-breakers also force the fabrication of multiple busses. The neat thing about fuse-blocks is that main, aux and endurance busses can be located in close proximity to each other and with no constraints driven by panel layout or style of hardware. If the designer wishes to group switches in something other than the contemporary one or two lines of switches. Switch breakers are much more expensive than a straight switch and comes in fewer styles. The fuse-block bus feeds can drive switches located anywhere in the airplane which offers the ultimate flexibility to the designer. Just last week, someone on the list was describing his own vision of optimum switch placement that was anything but contemporary. I'll suggest that fuse-blocks combined with switches of choice, arranged in accordance with the designer's vision of optimum design are inexpensive, flexible to the extreme and very low cost of ownership (i.e. good return on investment). Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 05:59:12 PM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Microair T2000 Transponder problems From: "Scott, Ian" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Scott, Ian" could it be an issue with the encoder? Ian -----Original Message----- From: Roger Roy [mailto:Savannah174@msn.com] Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Microair T2000 Transponder problems --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Roger Roy" Geez Louise!!!!!! I just installed a T-2000 in my 701 I wonder if that problem will also be incurred, Cheers Roger J. Roy ----- Original Message ----- From: czechsix@juno.com To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com ; rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 2:15 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Microair T2000 Transponder problems --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: czechsix@juno.com Guys, A friend of mine, Alan Kritzman, has had problems with his Microair T2000 tranponder installed in his RV-8, and since I have the same unit but am not flying yet, I'm posting this to ask if anyone else has had the same trouble. The symptoms are very repeatable: whenever taking off out of a controlled field with radar service, the controllers always say they are not picking up the transponder. After the aircraft is about 5 miles from the airport, the power is cycled using the transponders on/off button and then the tower picks up the signal normally. If the flight originates from a nearby uncontrolled field, the controllers pick the the transponder normally when approaching the towered airport without having to cycle power on the unit. The coax has been replaced and the antenna replaced and moved in attempts to fix the problem. Then Alan took his transponder out and sent it back to Microair in Australia for repairs, and while it was gone, he installed my identical transponder in his airplane with the same problem. A few days ago he got a brand new and different unit back from Microair and it too exhibits the same problem. Anybody else flying out of Class C or other facility with radar that has experienced this problem? Or, any idea what could cause it in terms of the installation as opposed to the transponder itself? Thanks, --Mark Navratil Cedar Rapids, Iowa RV-8A N2D finishing... ---------------------------------------------------- RSL COM has an extensive and competitive range of local and long distance call packages. 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Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the message states otherwise and the sender is authorised to state them to be the views of any such entity. ---------------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:44:17 PM PST US From: "David Schaefer" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Push to Test --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Schaefer" Bob .. I would like to incorporate a push-to-test function on my warning lamps (such as the voltage reg. etc.) Is it as simple as running a wire from the ground side of all the lamps to a button that momentarily grounds them? If not .. do you have a drawing? Regards, David ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:06:23 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Microair T2000 Transponder problems --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 12:58 PM 11/4/2003 +1100, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Scott, Ian" > > > >could it be an issue with the encoder? The fact that this seems to happen only with local radar sites and that it is common with several radios suggests receiver overload in the T2000. The best way to test for this is get a 20db attenuator and put into the antenna line. This will cut both incoming and outgoing signals way down in strength as if the radar site were much further away. Mark, Have you discussed this with an avionics shop? They should have an attenuator you can try. Bob. . . ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:09:26 PM PST US From: Jim Sower Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Some general thoughts on noise --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jim Sower <... An inductor that will efficiently smooth alternator ripple on the alternator's b-lead is bigger and heavier than the alternator ...> Agreed. What about brush noise? Would a couple of decent size capacitors on the B+ terminal of the alternator suppress brush noise significantly? Or is brush noise a problem, given the ripple? I'm using the capacitors but always wondered if It's doing any good ... Jim S. "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: > --> ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 08:33:56 PM PST US From: Hebeard2@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Push to Test --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Hebeard2@aol.com David, You may want to think about adding a push to test for all of your warning lights. In 1963 early in the 727 program, Boeing had such a momentary switch to test many many warning lights in the cockpit. While in flight, a flight engineer actuated this switch to demonstrate this new gee whiz feature to a customer. When he released the switch all the lights remained ON! It not only can happen, it did! Harley ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 08:49:02 PM PST US From: "Steve Hamer" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Copper strap vs. cable for short runs --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Steve Hamer" Bob, I'm putting together a compact little assembly that will contain both the battery and starter contactors as well as the shunt and current limiter. These are mounted together on a panel approximately 3.5 by 7.5 inches, so they are very close together. The problem is, they're so close together that making cables is a problem. I have some eighth inch thick by half inch copper I could make connections with. Is this acceptable? Pros and cons? Thanks, Steve RV-6