Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:01 AM - CNX80 and MX20 at auction on ebay (Richard@riley.net)
2. 01:23 AM - wire size for charging battery (Dave Ford)
3. 03:13 AM - Re: Re: Panel Input (Ron Raby)
4. 03:23 AM - Re: Lighted, engraved rocker switches (Ron Raby)
5. 06:25 AM - Re: Lighted, engraved rocker switches (Charlie Kuss)
6. 06:46 AM - Re: wire size for charging battery (Dan Branstrom)
7. 07:52 AM - Re: wire size for charging battery (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
8. 07:56 AM - Re: Multi-pin plug for Infinity Aerospace (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 07:59 AM - Re: Lasar Ignition Draw (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
10. 11:24 AM - SD-8 low voltage warning revisited (Scott Diffenbaugh)
11. 11:36 AM - A new Z-figure drawing? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
12. 11:45 AM - Re: Z-13 questions (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
13. 11:56 AM - Future replacement for Rotax rectifier/regulator ? (Gilles.Thesee)
14. 01:05 PM - Re: alternator breaker tripping (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
15. 01:11 PM - Re: Crowbar OV protection (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
16. 02:52 PM - Re: Multi-pin plug for Infinity Aerospace stick grip (Jonathan & Kathryn Hults)
17. 03:50 PM - Re: Re: fuses vs. CBs (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
18. 03:50 PM - Re: Multi-pin plug for Infinity Aerospace (Dave Morris)
19. 06:21 PM - Re: Re: fuses vs. CBs (Chad Robinson)
20. 06:49 PM - Re: Re: fuses vs. CBs (Dan Branstrom)
21. 07:35 PM - Re: A new Z-figure drawing? (Dave Morris)
22. 08:35 PM - Re: Mounting Ground Bus (Brian Meyette)
23. 09:01 PM - Re: Mounting Ground Bus (Dan Branstrom)
24. 09:33 PM - Source of Toroid Baluns (Jon Finley)
25. 09:58 PM - Looking for an installer, central CA (Richard@riley.net)
26. 10:55 PM - Re: Source of Toroid Baluns (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
27. 11:25 PM - Re: A new Z-figure drawing? (Dan Branstrom)
Message 1
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| Subject: | CNX80 and MX20 at auction on ebay |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Richard@Riley.net
I have a couple of radios up on Ebay, I ordered them for a (can't say it in
mixed company) who then bounced a check to me and won't answer his
phone. That'll teach me. They're at my cost, about 35% off retail.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&category=26436&item=2442603158
and
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&category=26436&item=2442826941
Message 2
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| Subject: | wire size for charging battery |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Ford" <dford@michweb.net>
I'm looking to add a wire to the positive side of my battery with some kind of
plug to make it easier to get to and charge my battery on my RV6 instead of contortioning
to remove the battery box cover and work with the small PC680 terminal
screw and charger clips. I'm wondering if a number 8 cable is sufficient
for this application, it would be about 5 feet or less of cable.
Dave Ford
RV6
Message 3
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ron Raby" <ronr@advanceddesign.com>
Darwin
I bought the approach system because it allowed me to buy the Garmin
equipment without having anyone wire it. approach systems has a letter that
they will send you that you can send to the garmin dealer this allows them
to sell you the equipment without them wiring it. approach system sells
cables for most equipment. I have the 530, sl30 g106a, gtx 330, trutrac 250,
bluemountain efis1, pma 6000cd. They had interface cables for all of this
equipment. I cannot comment on functionality as I have not wired my panel
yet.
I bought the approach systems mostly because I wanted to wire my own panel.
most of the avionics shops that I talked to had different ideas on how to
wire (my panel) and it was getting annoying dealing with them. first I had
to tell them I was all electric, Then I had to tell them I did not want an
avionics master, and so on. Even if I do not use the approach systems
equipment. It was worth it to me to get the equipment without having some
else do the work.
Ron Raby
Lancair ES
----- Original Message -----
From: "Treff, Arthur" <Arthur.Treff@Smartm.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Panel Input
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Treff, Arthur"
<Arthur.Treff@Smartm.com>
>
> Darwin sez:
>
> Equipment list as follows:
>
> Garmin 340 audio panel
> Garmin 430 GPS/Comm
> Garmin 106A CDI
> Garmin 330S transponder
> UPS SL 40 Comm
> Trutrak 2 axis AP (not sure which one yet)
> Dynon EFIS
> ACS2002 engine monitor
> Approach systems wiring hub
> EXP buss switch panel.
> Some sort of CD player
>
> Back up stuff will be 2.25" airspeed, altimeter, and T&B.
>
> Fire away, Nomex on!!
>
> No fireproof clothes necessary, you're among friends here. Good stuff.
I've recently gone thru the same decision path for my RV-8. Here's my
comments I send to you with the utmost respect. They are my opinions only,
not law. My mission profile and needs may be vastly differen t from yours.
Here goes:
>
> Instead of the SL40, you may want to consider the ICOM A-200 comm for a
backup. Can be had for approx $750 rather than $1380 for the SL-40.
>
> As to the Approach Systems Hub, I think it's a great product, but I looked
at their pricing and the fact that I didn't think I was going to keep
upgrading the panel (which a modular approach begs for), and the price for
my panel, even with an OSH discount was in the neighborhood of $1300 just
for avionics wiring, not to mention that you have to find a place to put the
hub. I have contracted with Stark Avionics
http://www.mindspring.com/~jts7/index.htm to pre wire my racks. Mr Stark is
wiring the trays only. ONce I'm all done and ready to fly, I'll then plunk
down the 10-large for the Garmin boxes. This way, my $$ isn't tied up in
radios I cannot use and when I do buy, I hopefully will have the latest
datacards and software revs. He charges me up front for the racks,
connectors, materials, and his labor BUT when I buy the radios from him (and
he has the lowest prices I have found) he credits me back the prices on the
racks. After it's all said and done, his matls and l!
> abor to wire the whole stack is approx $500. I also paid him extra for a
full functional check. Others who have used him have had good things to
say. I also got a quote from Pacific Coast Avionics, and they were
comparable to Stark, but did not credit back any tray and connector $$. If
you're buying your radios at the same time, this would be a non issue.
Another friend also used PCA and had great things to say about them as well.
Approach looks like a stellar product too.
>
> Exp bus: look on this list's archives and the Aeroelectric website for a
rousing discussion of this manufacturer's merits. I woudn't do it if it
were my plane.
>
> CD Player? I've recently changed on that one, I"ll not mess around with
CD's when for a few more $$ you can put a portable 40GB hard drive to store
approx 500 CD's and carry it around with you. Why agonize over which CD to
take along, when you can have all the music that's important to you (or your
whole collection for that matter) with you in the car, in the plane, on the
airlines, at a friends house. Do a Google search on the word "iPod". It's
made by Apple. Just a 1/8" entertainment jack next to the headphone and mic
input to my stereo intercom, and I'll also put a power plug in place as well
as an IPod docking station in the plane. BTW, VW is shipping their Bugs
with an IPod dock, that may give you an indication of the acceptance of the
device. Besides, it's tiny compared to a CD player.
>
> You appear to be gearing up for IFR flight. Based on that, have you a
backup plan if the D-10 goes south in the clag? I'm going with the D-10 but
am using the Micro EFIS-3 from PC Flight systems.
http://pcflightsystems.com/ At $1200, it's less costly than a TSO'd
electric AI, weighs less and draws less power. Aviation Consumer gave it
rave reviews this month, including flying acro in a Decathalon. The solid
state gyros did not lose lock even after 5 aileron rolls to the left
followed by 5 to the right. I applaud your decision to put standard TC as
well as altimeter and AS for backup.
>
> I too thought about 2 1/4 pitot static instruments, but I do not relish
flying IFR with reference to non-TSO'd altimeter and airspeeds. If there
are TSO'd little gages out there, please let me know, I'll change my panel
layout asap. Van's panel is so close, I wish all my gages were smaller.
The 3 1/8 gages look huge when I sit in my RV. Oh well.
>
> Good call on the Trutrack. Friends who fly IFR regularly in their 6's and
8's report good reviews on the Trutrak stuff, and they recommend an A/P for
herding an rv in IMC in the bumps.
>
> ON the Garmin 330? Are you going with the traffic aviodance feature? If
so, I'm jealous. Of not, why not consider the 327? You'll save $$.
>
> In general, I too was avioding the wiring part like the plague. I quickly
relaized that there is no off the shelf wiring that will suit my plans. I
plagerized others work from their websites, etc. Then I realized that I
would just have to knuckle down and draw my own. What I did not re-draw was
Bob's Z-13: All Electric Airplane on a Budget. I made a few minor changes
to switches, but nothing that forced me into re drawing it. Went to Kinko's
and had it blown up as far as I could go. I also suggest getting the
wiring drawings that come with their pre fabbed wiring kit. They are really
useful for knowing where to put wires thru spars, etc. I think they charged
me $3.00 or something. Also buy the optional drawing for the firewall
forward. That will help you decide where to put stuff like ground blocks,
heat valves, transducer mounts for your ACS monitro. I left the planning
until the last minute, but I read Bob's book and hacked away at my simple
hand drawn wiring !
> diagrams and wire label spreadsheets all last winter while on business
trips. Now that I"m 85% done, I look back at the project and feel a great
satisfaction in my design and execution. I also realize that I've really
enjoyed the wiring process, an unexpected response. Best advice from an
RV-6 builder who did a full IFR panel like I'm doing was, "If you think you
may want it, put it in now. It's far easier to wire up a circuit now, only
to find out that you don't need it after you're flying." I concur. Also,
don't launch into wiring without a plan, even rudimentary drawings will
make it go so much easier. Every time I've tried to 'wing' it on the fly
instead of drawing a diagram, it ends up taking much longer to install. So,
keep planning, do your alternator load analyis, do a FMEA (failure mode
effects analysis) for your instrumentation and your power distribution.
Keep picking away at it, and just like riveting your wing skins, it'll be
done before you know it. !
> This list is the best place to start. Have fun, call me or email me d
>
> Art Treff
> RV-8 Fastback (wiring)
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Lighted, engraved rocker switches |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ron Raby" <ronr@advanceddesign.com>
Scott
I used carling technoligies switches L14E1 15A 12V.
Lancair uses a guy that does trophy engraving to get these switches
engraved.
I can send you a digital picture of mine if you want to see what they look
like.
Ron Raby
Lancair ES
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Diffenbaugh" <diff@foothill.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Lighted, engraved rocker switches
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Scott Diffenbaugh"
<diff@foothill.net>
>
> Can anyone point me to a good source for high quality engraved lighted
> rocker switches?
> If I change my mind and end up going with toggle switches, what is the
best
> way to light them. (All of my instruments & avionics will be internally
> lighted)
>
> Scott Diffenbaugh
> diff@foothill.net
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Lighted, engraved rocker switches |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss <chaskuss@bellsouth.net>
Ron,
Are these switches available in other styles besides a simple ON OFF (ie 1-2)
switch? Are single pole, double throw & double pole models available? Please e-mail
me a copy of the below referenced photos, off list, please.
Charlie Kuss
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ron Raby" <ronr@advanceddesign.com>
>
>Scott
>
>I used carling technoligies switches L14E1 15A 12V.
>Lancair uses a guy that does trophy engraving to get these switches
>engraved.
>I can send you a digital picture of mine if you want to see what they look
>like.
>
>Ron Raby
>
>Lancair ES
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Scott Diffenbaugh" <diff@foothill.net>
>To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Lighted, engraved rocker switches
>
>
>> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Scott Diffenbaugh"
><diff@foothill.net>
>>
>> Can anyone point me to a good source for high quality engraved lighted
>> rocker switches?
>> If I change my mind and end up going with toggle switches, what is the
>best
>> way to light them. (All of my instruments & avionics will be internally
>> lighted)
>>
>> Scott Diffenbaugh
>> diff@foothill.net
>>
>>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: wire size for charging battery |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Branstrom" <danbranstrom@verizon.net>
Dave,
I believe that if you're just using the plug for charging, all you need is a
wire that matches the capacity of the charger (fused, of course). For a
float charger, or a solar panel, the wire is very small. If you have an RG
battery, how long are you going between flying the plane? A charger may not
be necessary because of the low self-discharge rate.
I believe that for a float charger, you could easily use an audio jack, such
as the XLR series from the Shack. (274-013 for mounting on the plane, and
274-010 for the wire to your charger). I have seen one of the plugs used
for trailer hitches used for this purpose, too.
Someone will correct me if I'm wrong.
Dan Branstrom
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Ford" <dford@michweb.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: wire size for charging battery
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Ford" <dford@michweb.net>
>
> I'm looking to add a wire to the positive side of my battery with some
kind of plug to make it easier to get to and charge my battery on my RV6
instead of contortioning to remove the battery box cover and work with the
small PC680 terminal screw and charger clips. I'm wondering if a number 8
cable is sufficient for this application, it would be about 5 feet or less
of cable.
>
> Dave Ford
> RV6
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: wire size for charging battery |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 06:46 AM 11/15/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Branstrom"
><danbranstrom@verizon.net>
>
>Dave,
>I believe that if you're just using the plug for charging, all you need is a
>wire that matches the capacity of the charger (fused, of course). For a
>float charger, or a solar panel, the wire is very small. If you have an RG
>battery, how long are you going between flying the plane? A charger may not
>be necessary because of the low self-discharge rate.
>
>I believe that for a float charger, you could easily use an audio jack, such
>as the XLR series from the Shack. (274-013 for mounting on the plane, and
>274-010 for the wire to your charger). I have seen one of the plugs used
>for trailer hitches used for this purpose, too.
>
>Someone will correct me if I'm wrong.
You're right on sir . . . you can tie an external
power jack right to the battery with a small, inline
fuse appropriate to the chargers max output and
you're done.
Bob . . .
Message 8
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| Subject: | Multi-pin plug for Infinity Aerospace |
stick grip
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
stick grip
At 06:48 PM 11/14/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Richard M. Martin"
><martinrm@ncplus.net>
>
>25 pin sub D
>
>Richard
that would be my connector of choice as well.
Bob . . .
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Neil
>Clayton
>To: cozy_builders@canard.com; canard-aviators@yahoogroups.com;
>aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Multi-pin plug for Infinity Aerospace stick
>grip
>
>
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Neil Clayton
><harvey4@earthlink.net>
>
>I just received my Infinity Aerospace stick grip and I'd like it to be
>readily removable for maintenance and for modification of the switch
>configuration.
>The wire is a 19 strand bundle, although not all of them may be used.
>
>Is there a multi-pin plug connector that I could use to plug the stick into
>the aeroplane?
>
>Thanks,
>Neil
>
>
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Lasar Ignition Draw |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 11:51 PM 11/14/2003 +0100, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Werner Schneider"
><wernerschneider@compuserve.com>
>
>Its for both together, when I have some time I might do it left and right.
I'd be very pleased to have that information. Thank you.
Bob . . .
Message 10
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| Subject: | SD-8 low voltage warning revisited |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Scott Diffenbaugh" <diff@foothill.net>
Hi Bob,
Just when I thought I had it, I was ambushed. I had wondered about the
need for a low voltage warning light if running on SD-8 back up alternator
and you responded it wasn't really necessary if I designed my E bus
properly, but if I wanted to monitor it I could either hook up my voltmeter
to my E bus or use one of your AEC 9005 warning lights. I decided to plan
on hooking my ACS-2000 voltmeter display to my E bus and set the parameter
to warn me of low voltage. Problem solved until I discovered that the B&C
PM/OV kit #504-1 comes with a low voltage warning light, but it is set to
light for overvoltage (I assume when the breaker trips) or if the alt switch
is left off (I have learned there is no field on a pm alt & if the rpm is
sufficient, it is always on). So, do I just leave out the light, or can I
benefit from it (might be a nice backup) by maybe wiring it through a 2 pole
alt switch? Many thanks. Scott
Scott Diffenbaugh
diff@foothill.net
Message 11
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| Subject: | A new Z-figure drawing? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>Comments/Questions: Hi Bob,
>
>I enjoyed your discussion in Sullivan at our Dragonfly/Q fly-in last
>month. I think you do a great service to the homebuilder community by
>refuting bogus claims and helping us all stay on the straight and narrow
>and keep our priorities right.
Thank you Dave. That event is one of our yearly favorites. Since
the tandem wing crowd is completely without formal factory support,
I detect a higher level of technical innovation and exploration
by builders there than for any other gathering we frequent.
>I've spent the last several years reading over your articles and studying
>your diagrams. I'm building a Dragonfly and since I'm a software guy, I
>am planning to do a lot of experimenting with glass cockpit designs, EFIS
>systems, and homegrown autopilot systems. So I have not only an
>all-electric airplane, but a VFR all-computerized panel. Obviously the
>integrity of the electrical system is of paramount importance to me.
Why? Keep in mind that when you have an item that is necessary for
comfortable
completion of flight, keeping power available to that device is only part of
the equation. There are any number of single component failures that can
take that particular piece of equipment down.
>I am very interested in having dual alternators and a single RG
>battery. I tried many times to separate my electrical loads into
>essential bus and main bus, but I can't get rid of the feeling that most
>everything is "essential", so I am instead separating things into an
>"always-hot" bus with ignition and clock, and a "main" bus with everything
>else on it.
The "essential bus" is really an ENDURANCE bus . . . it's a highly
reliable bus because it has dual power pathways, it's a place to
minimize loads on a limited power resource (battery) should the
alternator(s) go down . . . 'cause it let's you eliminate the battery
contactor drain that is equal to or more than power required for
several radios.
>I also feel that I should tie both alternators and the battery together,
>with a contactor on each of them that allows disconnection of any of them
>if they should become psychotic.
Again, why? Take Figure Z-13 and hypothesize any and all component
failures that you can deduce. Map out a plan of action that works around
that failure. Once you've combed through all of the single failures,
rank them in order of probability. A yearly-fresh RG battery is probably
the most dependable power source you can put in the airplane. Two engine
driven power sources back each other up. Multiple, independent feedpaths
between engine driven power sources and the battery add another level
of dependability.
Let's talk about failure mode effects analysis and
the development of plan-A, plan-B and perhaps even Plan-C
for dealing with all failures we can think of. I belive
you'll ultimately come to understand that many of your
present concerns are unworthy of the effort, and many
if not most of the real concerns are easily and comfortably
managed.
>I've got a schematic I'd like to show you. It's quite simple and I
>believe elegant, and provides for automatic disconnect of failed
>alternators (OV crowbar), but also for disconnection of the battery in
>case it shorts. I don't know if that is a problem for alternators, but
>I'd like your opinion as to whether it is important to be able to
>disconnect the battery from the main bus in the event it fails in
>flight. I've put 50,000uF caps on the regulator outputs. I can send the
>schematic if you have a minute to look it over and give me a sanity check.
I think it's better to build and debug a much massaged,
tried and proven design. If there are problems heretofore
undetected, please share them with us. It's a good thing
that everyone knows about them so they can be corrected.
If there are features missing that you think are
necessary for the way you plan to use the system,
we'd all like to know about those too. The first
issue of Appendix Z had three or four drawings, it's up to
thirty and growing. Each drawing was added to illustrate
useful features for consideration by every builder.
I think this would be a more useful exercise than to comb
out a start-from-scratch architecture. Keep in mind that
the elegant solutions EVOLVE . . . Appendix Z represents
17 years of conversations with builders and it will continue
evolve for the foreseeable future.
Of course, you're free and indeed encouraged to architecture
a system that affords you the most comfort. But it would
be helpful to the OBAM aviation community at large if
we build on work that's gone before rather than start from
scratch.
Please join us on the AeroElectric-List and share as
much as you can with other participants. There are quite
a number of software and hardware wieners along with
pilots that would be pleased to participate in the
evolution of your work as well.
May I suggest that you get your Dragonfly airborne by the
shortest practical pathway. This might include a first-flight
instrument panel that looks like a J-3 Cub. The the
platform completed and debugged before you begin to
add new, unproven features upon which you will ultimately
depend.
Bob . . .
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13 questions |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 06:25 PM 11/14/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Scott Diffenbaugh"
><diff@foothill.net>
>
>Bob,
>Just finished reviewing the Z-13 archives again and found answers to a bunch
>of my questions. A great resource--Thank you! A couple questions
>outstanding:
>
>1) Found this question but couldn't find your response: How about hooking
>the main alt field switch to the battery bus in case the battery contactor
>fails? The alternator would then remain on line and continue to power the
>main bus.
If the battery contactor opens, battery voltage would fall and
the regulator would full-field the alternator producing a voltage
runaway condition.
>Assuming the alternator would be unstable without a battery, could you close
>the E bus aux feed switch and backfeed the battery through the diode? I
>believe I read in one of the archives that the fuselink is located at the E
>bus in case of backfeed.
>2) To help me better understand the E bus operation, I would like to pose a
>hypothetical situation. If I have an SD-8 back up alternator, and my E bus
>load is set up for a hypothetical 20A (it will actually be about 6A typical
>to 12A max), and I have my ACS 2002 voltmeter hooked to the E bus, and my
>ACS hall amp sensor around the SD-8 "B" lead, and I have a low voltage
>warning light installed on the backup circuit, would you mind outlining what
>I will see and/or read from the point when I close the aux feed switch until
>my E bus devices fail?
I don't understand the question. Why would the e-bus devices fail?
The goals of Z-13 design are to supply dual pathways and dual engine
driven power sources for the e-bus that are on TOP of the battery
as a last ditch power source. For the most part, we've said that
multiple failures on any single tank of gas are so remote as to
be insignificant for consideration in our design. Is the "12A max"
load a continuous load you intend to support while en route? All
you have to do is get this down to 10A and you're 100% covered by
the SD-8. So before you really have to sweat, you have to loose
both alternators and then you still have a well-maintained,
RG battery to get you down. A yeary-fresh 17 a.h. battery is
1-hour plus endurance and I have to believe you can get your
endurance loads lower than 10A.
Bob . . .
Message 13
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| Subject: | Future replacement for Rotax rectifier/regulator ? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gilles.Thesee" <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Hi Bob and all,
This is to let you know that a fellow pilot and electrics researcher is
willing to undertake the design of a more modern rectifier/regulator for the
Rotax 912/914 PM alternator. He is talking about switching and chopping and
low heat.
We happily offered to flight test the future design.
We just spent the afternoon sorting out the schematics of the present
regulator. I passed him a stator and rotor to allow for basic measurements
and components dimensioning.
For what it's worth
Regards
Gilles
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: alternator breaker tripping |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 01:28 PM 11/14/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Greg's Mail"
><50coperhed@jbntelco.com>
>
> My OVM was purchased in july of this year and has black and
> orange wires. And yes it trips if I switch on either the strobes or
> a landing or taxi light.
> Thanks Greg
Okey, before you do anything else to fix this,
send me your ovm for modification. This is a rare occurrence
and never happens close by so that I can instrument the
airplane to deduce root causes. However, there are some
things I can try on your OVM that will let me deduce
some root causes without having to actually put my hands
on your airplane. It's important that we do only one thing
at a time . . . too many times in the past, I've seen
a shotgun approach to problem solving. This may produce
acceptable results but it always begs the question, which
change really fixed it and were they ALL necessary?
We have an opportunity to do some good detective work
here. I appreciate your willingness to participate.
Bob . . .
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Crowbar OV protection |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 06:11 AM 11/14/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski
><bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
>
>I cringe as I say this, but it was a breaker switch. So maybe the OVM was
>tripping the breaker/switch?
Okay . . . yes, if you have a breaker-switch in the alternator field
circuit and it appears to open all by itself when you are switching
other things in the system, it may well be a nuisance trip of the
OV module. I'm working with another builder on the same issue.
We've shipped nearly 1000 of these things over the past 10 years
and they're rarely a problem but there are some airplanes that
seem intent on pushing the current design past limits. Let's
see what I find out on the other case and then we'll work on
yours.
Bob . . .
Message 16
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| Subject: | Multi-pin plug for Infinity Aerospace stick grip |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jonathan & Kathryn Hults" <jkhults@interlinkdsl.com>
Neil,
Call J.D. at Infinity Aerospace. He had one of his stick grips at
Oshkosh last year already configured with a cannon plug type pin
connector with a threaded bezel to screw it onto the end of your control
stick! He said you can just unscrew it and take it with you when you
get out of the airplane (for security) if you want to.
Jon
Lancair Legacy
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Neil
Clayton
aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Multi-pin plug for Infinity Aerospace stick
grip
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Neil Clayton
--> <harvey4@earthlink.net>
I just received my Infinity Aerospace stick grip and I'd like it to be
readily removable for maintenance and for modification of the switch
configuration.
The wire is a 19 strand bundle, although not all of them may be used.
Is there a multi-pin plug connector that I could use to plug the stick
into
the aeroplane?
Thanks,
Neil
=
==
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
==
==
==
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: fuses vs. CBs |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 01:21 AM 11/12/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chad Robinson
><crobinson@rfgonline.com>
>
> > Why would you want to add so much $time$ to a product that
> > has about one chance in 1000 of ever doing something useful?
> >
> > Once you're past the development phase of your design and all
> > construction faults and nuisance trips are fixed, it's quite
> > likely that your airplane will run a lifetime and never open
> > a fuse.
>
>Uhhhh, I don't. I asked for one pre-made. I'm asking for a fuse block
>that has these suckers built in. If you read my original message I said
>I didn't want to be the one doing this. I agree it's a waste of time,
>and fuses with LEDs built in are overpriced and a waste of money. =)
I guess I don't understand . . . a fuse block with breakers built in?
>I love playing Devil's Advocate, so I'll bite. How about this for an
>argument? It's nice information to have when your engine starts cutting
>out on your third test flight that you can glance down and see your fuel
>pump (EFI here) has blown a fuse, perhaps because you DIDN'T fasten
>things down as well as you thought and a wire abraded and shorted out.
>You sure as heck aren't going to reach down and try to put in a new fuse
>- it blew for a reason. But you can also avoid wasting time on trying an
>engine restart, which reduces your workload somewhat. As long as you
>aren't overloading the pilot with information (and you have to really
>LOOK to get this bit) having more information available is often nice.
Is this the one and only device that will provide adequate
fuel flow to your engine? What do you do when THAT device quits?
Or a wire comes unhooked? And, suppose you DID see that a fuse
is blown, what is the likelihood that the next fuse you put in
won't blow too?
>In point of fact I don't actually want them but when curiosity gets
>ahold of me I like to track things down. I don't know what the weather's
>like by you, but it's 15 degrees outside here tonight, so no plane
>building for me (unheated shop). In the winter, research is all I can do.
Its a good time to tidy up the shop sketches of your wiring
into real nice pages for your finished wirebook too . . .
Bob . . .
Message 18
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| Subject: | Multi-pin plug for Infinity Aerospace |
stick grip
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dave Morris <dave@davemorris.com> stick
grip
How about a DB-25? That's what I plan to use.
Dave Morris
At 02:51 PM 11/15/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Neil Clayton
>--> <harvey4@earthlink.net>
>
>I just received my Infinity Aerospace stick grip and I'd like it to be
>readily removable for maintenance and for modification of the switch
>configuration.
>The wire is a 19 strand bundle, although not all of them may be used.
>
>Is there a multi-pin plug connector that I could use to plug the stick
>into
>the aeroplane?
>
>Thanks,
>Neil
>
>
>>==
>direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
>==
>==
>==
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: fuses vs. CBs |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chad Robinson <crobinson@rfgonline.com>
On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 17:49:46 -0600 "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<bob.nuckolls@cox.net> wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
> <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
> At 01:21 AM 11/12/2003 -0500, you wrote:
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chad Robinson
> ><crobinson@rfgonline.com>
> >
> > > Why would you want to add so much $time$ to a product that
> > > has about one chance in 1000 of ever doing something useful?
> > >
> > > Once you're past the development phase of your design and all
> > > construction faults and nuisance trips are fixed, it's quite
> > > likely that your airplane will run a lifetime and never open
> > > a fuse.
> >
> >Uhhhh, I don't. I asked for one pre-made. I'm asking for a fuse block
> >that has these suckers built in. If you read my original message I
> >said I didn't want to be the one doing this. I agree it's a waste of
> >time, and fuses with LEDs built in are overpriced and a waste of
> >money. =)
>
> I guess I don't understand . . . a fuse block with breakers built
> in?
Ummm, maybe we're not on the same page here. I don't want breakers. I hate breakers.
I hate breakers almost as much as you do - I say almost because I'm not
sure anybody really dislikes them THAT much. =)
LEDs to show which fuse failed. That's what I want. I can do it myself with a small
board next to the fuse block, I just don't want to. I'd rather have something
molded and professionally made.
> >I love playing Devil's Advocate, so I'll bite. How about this for an
> >argument? It's nice information to have when your engine starts
> >cutting out on your third test flight that you can glance down and
> >see your fuel pump (EFI here) has blown a fuse, perhaps because you
> >DIDN'T fasten things down as well as you thought and a wire abraded
> >and shorted out. You sure as heck aren't going to reach down and try
> >to put in a new fuse- it blew for a reason. But you can also avoid
> >wasting time on trying an engine restart, which reduces your workload
> >somewhat. As long as you aren't overloading the pilot with
> >information (and you have to really LOOK to get this bit) having more
> >information available is often nice.
>
> Is this the one and only device that will provide adequate
> fuel flow to your engine? What do you do when THAT device quits?
> Or a wire comes unhooked? And, suppose you DID see that a fuse
> is blown, what is the likelihood that the next fuse you put in
> won't blow too?
Nope, there are two fuel pumps. Actually, both are electric, so you just gave me
another reason to justify this. Since I only actually require one, fuel pressure
alone may not (will not) be sufficient to tell me a fuse has blown and thus
one of the pumps is offline.
> >In point of fact I don't actually want them but when curiosity gets
> >ahold of me I like to track things down. I don't know what the
> >weather's like by you, but it's 15 degrees outside here tonight, so
> >no plane building for me (unheated shop). In the winter, research is
> >all I can do.
>
> Its a good time to tidy up the shop sketches of your wiring
> into real nice pages for your finished wirebook too . . .
Yeah. If I had any idea what instruments I was planning to use I'd do that. =)
Seriously, Bob, I'm really on the very early side of things here, but I like to
be as COMPLETELY informed as possible before I make a decision. For me, that
means months of discussion and thinking before I made a decision. I yam what
I yam.
Regards,
Curious Chad
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: fuses vs. CBs |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Branstrom" <danbranstrom@verizon.net>
<snip>> LEDs to show which fuse failed. That's what I want. I can do it
myself with a small board next to the fuse block, I just don't want to. I'd
rather have something molded and professionally made.
>
Just a warning about putting anything (like an LED) across where the fuse
goes: I have a friend who put grain of wheat bulbs parallel to the fuse
connections. The theory was that if a fuse blew, he would know which one it
was, because the light would come on. The problem? I had pulled the fuse
to work on something (which would usually disconnect the item). There was
enough residual current flowing through the bulb to the circuit to zap me a
bit.
Dan Branstrom
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chad Robinson" <crobinson@rfgonline.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: fuses vs. CBs
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chad Robinson
<crobinson@rfgonline.com>
>
> On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 17:49:46 -0600 "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
> <bob.nuckolls@cox.net> wrote:
>
> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
> > <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
> >
> > At 01:21 AM 11/12/2003 -0500, you wrote:
> > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chad Robinson
> > ><crobinson@rfgonline.com>
> > >
> > > > Why would you want to add so much $time$ to a product that
> > > > has about one chance in 1000 of ever doing something useful?
> > > >
> > > > Once you're past the development phase of your design and all
> > > > construction faults and nuisance trips are fixed, it's quite
> > > > likely that your airplane will run a lifetime and never open
> > > > a fuse.
> > >
> > >Uhhhh, I don't. I asked for one pre-made. I'm asking for a fuse block
> > >that has these suckers built in. If you read my original message I
> > >said I didn't want to be the one doing this. I agree it's a waste of
> > >time, and fuses with LEDs built in are overpriced and a waste of
> > >money. =)
> >
> > I guess I don't understand . . . a fuse block with breakers built
> > in?
>
> Ummm, maybe we're not on the same page here. I don't want breakers. I hate
breakers. I hate breakers almost as much as you do - I say almost because
I'm not sure anybody really dislikes them THAT much. =)
>
> LEDs to show which fuse failed. That's what I want. I can do it myself
with a small board next to the fuse block, I just don't want to. I'd rather
have something molded and professionally made.
>
> > >I love playing Devil's Advocate, so I'll bite. How about this for an
> > >argument? It's nice information to have when your engine starts
> > >cutting out on your third test flight that you can glance down and
> > >see your fuel pump (EFI here) has blown a fuse, perhaps because you
> > >DIDN'T fasten things down as well as you thought and a wire abraded
> > >and shorted out. You sure as heck aren't going to reach down and try
> > >to put in a new fuse- it blew for a reason. But you can also avoid
> > >wasting time on trying an engine restart, which reduces your workload
> > >somewhat. As long as you aren't overloading the pilot with
> > >information (and you have to really LOOK to get this bit) having more
> > >information available is often nice.
> >
> > Is this the one and only device that will provide adequate
> > fuel flow to your engine? What do you do when THAT device quits?
> > Or a wire comes unhooked? And, suppose you DID see that a fuse
> > is blown, what is the likelihood that the next fuse you put in
> > won't blow too?
>
> Nope, there are two fuel pumps. Actually, both are electric, so you just
gave me another reason to justify this. Since I only actually require one,
fuel pressure alone may not (will not) be sufficient to tell me a fuse has
blown and thus one of the pumps is offline.
>
> > >In point of fact I don't actually want them but when curiosity gets
> > >ahold of me I like to track things down. I don't know what the
> > >weather's like by you, but it's 15 degrees outside here tonight, so
> > >no plane building for me (unheated shop). In the winter, research is
> > >all I can do.
> >
> > Its a good time to tidy up the shop sketches of your wiring
> > into real nice pages for your finished wirebook too . . .
>
> Yeah. If I had any idea what instruments I was planning to use I'd do
that. =) Seriously, Bob, I'm really on the very early side of things here,
but I like to be as COMPLETELY informed as possible before I make a
decision. For me, that means months of discussion and thinking before I made
a decision. I yam what I yam.
>
> Regards,
> Curious Chad
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: A new Z-figure drawing? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dave Morris <dave@davemorris.com>
At 01:36 PM 11/15/2003 -0600, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> >I've spent the last several years reading over your articles and studying
> >your diagrams. I'm building a Dragonfly and since I'm a software guy, I
> >am planning to do a lot of experimenting with glass cockpit designs, EFIS
> >systems, and homegrown autopilot systems. So I have not only an
> >all-electric airplane, but a VFR all-computerized panel. Obviously the
> >integrity of the electrical system is of paramount importance to me.
>
> Why? Keep in mind that when you have an item that is necessary for
>comfortable
> completion of flight, keeping power available to that device is only
> part of
> the equation. There are any number of single component failures that can
> take that particular piece of equipment down.
>
I don't mean that the electrical system is more important than, say, the
fuel system. What I mean is that, since I am using a Rocky Mountain
MicroEncoder as altimeter and airspeed indicator, and since I am not using
magnetos to drive the ignition of my Corvair engine, I cannot simply shut
off the master and keep flying; I MUST have power or I become a glider. I
realize that's not the choice many would make, but I feel the risk can be
mitigated by providing redundancy either in the form of 2 batteries or 2
alternators. I am thinking I would rather have 2 alternators because 1)
the Corvair has a convenient way of doing it, and 2) the alternator weight
considerably less than another battery.
> >I also feel that I should tie both alternators and the battery together,
> >with a contactor on each of them that allows disconnection of any of them
> >if they should become psychotic.
>
> Again, why? Take Figure Z-13 and hypothesize any and all component
> failures that you can deduce. Map out a plan of action that works around
> that failure. Once you've combed through all of the single failures,
> rank them in order of probability. A yearly-fresh RG battery is probably
> the most dependable power source you can put in the airplane. Two engine
> driven power sources back each other up. Multiple, independent feedpaths
> between engine driven power sources and the battery add another level
> of dependability.
>
> Let's talk about failure mode effects analysis and
> the development of plan-A, plan-B and perhaps even Plan-C
> for dealing with all failures we can think of. I belive
> you'll ultimately come to understand that many of your
> present concerns are unworthy of the effort, and many
> if not most of the real concerns are easily and comfortably
> managed.
>
OK, the main question I have about Z-13 is what types of battery failures
can be expected, and what will happen in those failures. I know that in my
car, I have replaced many more batteries than I have replaced
alternators. The battery failures usually only manifested themselves when
trying to crank the car, and often involved "shorted plates" or whatever
they are calling it nowadays when the battery only puts out 8 or 10
volts. And I've seen it happen a few times with fairly new batteries. I
have no experience with RG batteries, and I don't know what the effect
would be on the alternator of such a battery failure in flight. That was
the reason I thought it would be a good idea to be able to isolate the
battery completely from the rest of the system. Am I worrying about nothing?
> May I suggest that you get your Dragonfly airborne by the
> shortest practical pathway. This might include a first-flight
> instrument panel that looks like a J-3 Cub. The the
> platform completed and debugged before you begin to
> add new, unproven features upon which you will ultimately
> depend.
I agree in principal, and would love to get this thing flying ASAP. In
practice it is difficult with the Dragonfly to come back later and make
extensive modifications, because the composite construction makes it
difficult to get access to things later on after you've closed everything
up with epoxy.
Dave Morris
Dragonly N55UP under construction
Message 22
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| Subject: | Mounting Ground Bus |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Brian Meyette" <brianpublic@starband.net>
Where is your book sold, Bob? I'd like to get a copy.
brian
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Mounting Ground Bus
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 05:33 AM 9/16/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jack Lockamy"
<jacklockamy@att.net>
>
>Bob,
>
>I have your AeroConnection Book and monitor this list. Lots of great info
>from both sources... However, I still am a bit confused about how to
>mount the Ground Bus to a metal firewall in an all metal airplane (RV-7A).
>
>Does the ground bus mount DIRECTLY to the firewall or is it mounted on
>stand-offs? If it is mounted directly to the firewall, how is running all
>the ground wires to local ground connections any different than going to
>the Ground Bus? I must be missing something simple here.
It mounts right on the firewall. Check out the chapter on noise
and in particular, "ground loops". It's important that all panel
and/or engine compartment stuff come to the single point ground
on firewall. Remove any jumpers that might exist across engine
mount isolators. Ground crankcase to firewall bus stud with
beefy jumper strap. Take battery (-) to ground stud on firewall.
There are a few non-victim/non-antagonist components that
can ground locally. Lamps in wings and tail, pitot heat, & strobe
power supply.
Bob . . .
---
Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
---
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Mounting Ground Bus |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Branstrom" <danbranstrom@verizon.net>
I'll reply for Bob. Go to
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AECcatalog.html You can order it
directly from him.
If you want to call him or use snail mail:
The AeroElectric Connection
6936 Bainbridge Road
Wichita, KS 67226-1008
Fax/Phone: 316-685-8617
Dan Branstrom
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Meyette" <brianpublic@starband.net>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Mounting Ground Bus
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Brian Meyette"
<brianpublic@starband.net>
>
> Where is your book sold, Bob? I'd like to get a copy.
> brian
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
L.
> Nuckolls, III
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Mounting Ground Bus
>
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
> <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
> At 05:33 AM 9/16/2003 -0700, you wrote:
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jack Lockamy"
> <jacklockamy@att.net>
> >
> >Bob,
> >
> >I have your AeroConnection Book and monitor this list. Lots of great
info
> >from both sources... However, I still am a bit confused about how to
> >mount the Ground Bus to a metal firewall in an all metal airplane
(RV-7A).
> >
> >Does the ground bus mount DIRECTLY to the firewall or is it mounted on
> >stand-offs? If it is mounted directly to the firewall, how is running
all
> >the ground wires to local ground connections any different than going to
> >the Ground Bus? I must be missing something simple here.
>
> It mounts right on the firewall. Check out the chapter on noise
> and in particular, "ground loops". It's important that all panel
> and/or engine compartment stuff come to the single point ground
> on firewall. Remove any jumpers that might exist across engine
> mount isolators. Ground crankcase to firewall bus stud with
> beefy jumper strap. Take battery (-) to ground stud on firewall.
>
> There are a few non-victim/non-antagonist components that
> can ground locally. Lamps in wings and tail, pitot heat, & strobe
> power supply.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> ---
> Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
>
> ---
>
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Source of Toroid Baluns |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jon Finley" <jon@finleyweb.net>
Hi all,
Anyone know if the toroid balun's (beads) used on copper foil antenna
coax is available at a local supplier (Radio Shack??). I've found them
at AS&S and RST - just seems like a waste to have to order three of the
little things.
Thanks!
Jon Finley
N90MG Q2 - Subaru EJ-22 DD - 461 Hrs. TT
Apple Valley, Minnesota
http://www.FinleyWeb.net/Q2Subaru
Message 25
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| Subject: | Looking for an installer, central CA |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Richard@Riley.net
Anyone have a referral for an avionics installer to work on a certified
airplane (Super Viking) in range of central California, that will install
things not purchased through him?
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Source of Toroid Baluns |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 11:32 PM 11/15/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jon Finley" <jon@finleyweb.net>
>
>Hi all,
>
>Anyone know if the toroid balun's (beads) used on copper foil antenna
>coax is available at a local supplier (Radio Shack??). I've found them
>at AS&S and RST - just seems like a waste to have to order three of the
>little things.
>
>Thanks!
The toroidal cores slipped over the coax feedline
of some popular antenna designs adds no measurable
improvement of performance vis-a-vis leaving them
off entirely. I saw this demonstrated in an antenna
lab on two different occasions. Just tie the coax
center and shield to the two halves of a diple and
drive on without the toroids. The antenna will work
just fine.
Cessna did this for a lot of years.
Bob . . .
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: A new Z-figure drawing? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Branstrom" <danbranstrom@verizon.net>
Hi Dave,
I'm sitting around trying to organize what I've read in Bob's book & at the
seminar last weekend, and writing a reply to your posting is the means I'm
using to etch the concepts in my mind.
If you don't have it, I highly urge you buy Bob's book, The Aero-Electric
Connection (which can be ordered directly from him at
http://www.aeroelectric.com/ . It has the reasoning behind each of the
decisions that Bob recommends. No, I don't get anything for shilling for
him. I think it's worth every penny.
Included in the book is a discussion of batteries and the reasons for using
a RGB (Re-Combiant Gas) battery, as well as how to make sure that it will
perform up to its capabilities. (The main one is to change it every other
year). The RGB battery has a much lower internal resistance than the
traditional lead-acid battery in your car. That means that it is able to
deliver the current needed for starting at a lower voltage than your car
battery. The RGB battery also has a much lower self-discharge rate than
your car battery, so it can sit unused for a longer period of time. It also
has no need for venting and even if it does vent (because of overheating),
no acids or hydrogen come out. As I remember it, RGB batteries are also
lighter. You have little worry about corrosion on terminals, because there
are no corrosive gasses to given off. Corrosion on the terminals and wires
to the batteries that comes from the batteries themselves often contribute
to or even cause the killing of car batteries.
In the book, (especially Chapter 17) Bob goes into the reasoning behind the
architectures of the wiring diagrams. The previous chapters cover the
different components of aircraft electrical systems. He has changed one
term from the book. Instead of calling the bus that has to keep working the
"essential bus," he now calls it the "endurance bus." What goes on that bus
is what you need to continue to fly for a certain period (endurance) after
alternator failure.
In the simplest form, the generator or alternator powers the main bus, and
current flows from the main bus to the endurance bus and to the battery.
There is a diode between the main and endurance bus which allows the main
bus to power the essential bus, but preventsthe opposite. If the generator
fails, the voltage of the bus drops enough to turn on the low voltage light.
A switch is thrown to connect the battery directly to the endurance bus, and
then the battery contactor is shut off (saving the load of the contactor).
That unloads anything unnecessary from the battery. Electronic ignition and
your RMI MicroEncoder go on endurance bus.
My question to you is, are you planning on flying IFR? (Personally, I
consider night flying nearly the equivalent).
If I was to build your plane, I would have 2 batteries. The second battery
would be dedicated to ignition and the MicroEncoder. I'm wondering if a
Quickie can be flown like most planes in a VFR environment without an
airspeed indicator, so is the MicroEncoder absolutely necessary if you're
flying VFR? (The second battery can be smaller than the main battery, and
sized so that it will power the ignition and MicroEncoder for a given period
of time after total alternator failure). That way, if I was flying at
night, and on landing threw on the landing light, (who said I was smart),
the landing light would not be drawing any power from the second battery
that only powers the endurance bus. The light might not work, but at least
the plane would keep flying.
O.K., I have the same experience with alternators and batteries in
automobiles. Alternators far outlast batteries in cars for me. The problem
is that many alternators are not self exciting. If a load spike draws the
voltage down below a certain level, the alternator quits working. That was
not a problem with generators. They are self-exciting, but the engine must
be running much faster than idle to provide charging capability. On your
car, (that has an alternator) if you remove the battery after your engine is
running, it will probably continue to run. If you flip on your turn
indicators, especially the older type that use relays, the load will cause
your engine to die. On the other hand, I once drove a car with points fired
ignition (which uses more electricity than the modern solid state kind) from
Iowa to California without an alternator. I only drove during the day, and
every night I found a stop where I could charge the battery overnight. I
was ferrying the car, and I didn't want to get involved with replacing the
alternator. Luckily, I only had to use the windshield wipers occasionally,
(which uses a lot of juice) and it was a stick shift so I didn't have to use
the starter after the first start in the morning because I would find a hill
or slight slope so I could push start it during the day.
With a generator (self-exciting), and a dead battery, if you throttled back
to a point well above idle, the voltage would probably drop to the point
that you couldn't power the ignition.
Testing the battery when new and at intervals will tell you what it's
capacity is, but it's easier to change it periodically to keep your battery
fresh. When you know how many watt hours are in the battery when the
charging quits and know the load placed on the endurance bus, you will know
how long you can fly before the motor quits for lack of electricity.
Dan Branstrom
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Morris" <dave@davemorris.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: A new Z-figure drawing?
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dave Morris <dave@davemorris.com>
>
> At 01:36 PM 11/15/2003 -0600, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
> > >I've spent the last several years reading over your articles and
studying
> > >your diagrams. I'm building a Dragonfly and since I'm a software guy,
I
> > >am planning to do a lot of experimenting with glass cockpit designs,
EFIS
> > >systems, and homegrown autopilot systems. So I have not only an
> > >all-electric airplane, but a VFR all-computerized panel. Obviously the
> > >integrity of the electrical system is of paramount importance to me.
> >
> > Why? Keep in mind that when you have an item that is necessary for
> >comfortable
> > completion of flight, keeping power available to that device is only
> > part of
> > the equation. There are any number of single component failures that
can
> > take that particular piece of equipment down.
> >
>
> I don't mean that the electrical system is more important than, say, the
> fuel system. What I mean is that, since I am using a Rocky Mountain
> MicroEncoder as altimeter and airspeed indicator, and since I am not using
> magnetos to drive the ignition of my Corvair engine, I cannot simply shut
> off the master and keep flying; I MUST have power or I become a glider. I
> realize that's not the choice many would make, but I feel the risk can be
> mitigated by providing redundancy either in the form of 2 batteries or 2
> alternators. I am thinking I would rather have 2 alternators because 1)
> the Corvair has a convenient way of doing it, and 2) the alternator weight
> considerably less than another battery.
>
>
> > >I also feel that I should tie both alternators and the battery
together,
> > >with a contactor on each of them that allows disconnection of any of
them
> > >if they should become psychotic.
> >
> > Again, why? Take Figure Z-13 and hypothesize any and all component
> > failures that you can deduce. Map out a plan of action that works
around
> > that failure. Once you've combed through all of the single failures,
> > rank them in order of probability. A yearly-fresh RG battery is
probably
> > the most dependable power source you can put in the airplane. Two
engine
> > driven power sources back each other up. Multiple, independent
feedpaths
> > between engine driven power sources and the battery add another
level
> > of dependability.
> >
> > Let's talk about failure mode effects analysis and
> > the development of plan-A, plan-B and perhaps even Plan-C
> > for dealing with all failures we can think of. I belive
> > you'll ultimately come to understand that many of your
> > present concerns are unworthy of the effort, and many
> > if not most of the real concerns are easily and comfortably
> > managed.
> >
>
> OK, the main question I have about Z-13 is what types of battery failures
> can be expected, and what will happen in those failures. I know that in
my
> car, I have replaced many more batteries than I have replaced
> alternators. The battery failures usually only manifested themselves when
> trying to crank the car, and often involved "shorted plates" or whatever
> they are calling it nowadays when the battery only puts out 8 or 10
> volts. And I've seen it happen a few times with fairly new batteries. I
> have no experience with RG batteries, and I don't know what the effect
> would be on the alternator of such a battery failure in flight. That was
> the reason I thought it would be a good idea to be able to isolate the
> battery completely from the rest of the system. Am I worrying about
nothing?
>
>
> > May I suggest that you get your Dragonfly airborne by the
> > shortest practical pathway. This might include a first-flight
> > instrument panel that looks like a J-3 Cub. The the
> > platform completed and debugged before you begin to
> > add new, unproven features upon which you will ultimately
> > depend.
>
> I agree in principal, and would love to get this thing flying ASAP. In
> practice it is difficult with the Dragonfly to come back later and make
> extensive modifications, because the composite construction makes it
> difficult to get access to things later on after you've closed everything
> up with epoxy.
>
> Dave Morris
> Dragonly N55UP under construction
>
>
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