---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 11/15/03: 27 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:01 AM - CNX80 and MX20 at auction on ebay (Richard@riley.net) 2. 01:23 AM - wire size for charging battery (Dave Ford) 3. 03:13 AM - Re: Re: Panel Input (Ron Raby) 4. 03:23 AM - Re: Lighted, engraved rocker switches (Ron Raby) 5. 06:25 AM - Re: Lighted, engraved rocker switches (Charlie Kuss) 6. 06:46 AM - Re: wire size for charging battery (Dan Branstrom) 7. 07:52 AM - Re: wire size for charging battery (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 07:56 AM - Re: Multi-pin plug for Infinity Aerospace (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 07:59 AM - Re: Lasar Ignition Draw (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 11:24 AM - SD-8 low voltage warning revisited (Scott Diffenbaugh) 11. 11:36 AM - A new Z-figure drawing? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 12. 11:45 AM - Re: Z-13 questions (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 13. 11:56 AM - Future replacement for Rotax rectifier/regulator ? (Gilles.Thesee) 14. 01:05 PM - Re: alternator breaker tripping (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 15. 01:11 PM - Re: Crowbar OV protection (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 16. 02:52 PM - Re: Multi-pin plug for Infinity Aerospace stick grip (Jonathan & Kathryn Hults) 17. 03:50 PM - Re: Re: fuses vs. CBs (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 18. 03:50 PM - Re: Multi-pin plug for Infinity Aerospace (Dave Morris) 19. 06:21 PM - Re: Re: fuses vs. CBs (Chad Robinson) 20. 06:49 PM - Re: Re: fuses vs. CBs (Dan Branstrom) 21. 07:35 PM - Re: A new Z-figure drawing? (Dave Morris) 22. 08:35 PM - Re: Mounting Ground Bus (Brian Meyette) 23. 09:01 PM - Re: Mounting Ground Bus (Dan Branstrom) 24. 09:33 PM - Source of Toroid Baluns (Jon Finley) 25. 09:58 PM - Looking for an installer, central CA (Richard@riley.net) 26. 10:55 PM - Re: Source of Toroid Baluns (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 27. 11:25 PM - Re: A new Z-figure drawing? (Dan Branstrom) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:01:28 AM PST US From: Richard@riley.net Subject: AeroElectric-List: CNX80 and MX20 at auction on ebay --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Richard@Riley.net I have a couple of radios up on Ebay, I ordered them for a (can't say it in mixed company) who then bounced a check to me and won't answer his phone. That'll teach me. They're at my cost, about 35% off retail. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&category=26436&item=2442603158 and http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&category=26436&item=2442826941 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:23:56 AM PST US From: "Dave Ford" Subject: AeroElectric-List: wire size for charging battery --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Ford" I'm looking to add a wire to the positive side of my battery with some kind of plug to make it easier to get to and charge my battery on my RV6 instead of contortioning to remove the battery box cover and work with the small PC680 terminal screw and charger clips. I'm wondering if a number 8 cable is sufficient for this application, it would be about 5 feet or less of cable. Dave Ford RV6 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:13:35 AM PST US From: "Ron Raby" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Panel Input --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ron Raby" Darwin I bought the approach system because it allowed me to buy the Garmin equipment without having anyone wire it. approach systems has a letter that they will send you that you can send to the garmin dealer this allows them to sell you the equipment without them wiring it. approach system sells cables for most equipment. I have the 530, sl30 g106a, gtx 330, trutrac 250, bluemountain efis1, pma 6000cd. They had interface cables for all of this equipment. I cannot comment on functionality as I have not wired my panel yet. I bought the approach systems mostly because I wanted to wire my own panel. most of the avionics shops that I talked to had different ideas on how to wire (my panel) and it was getting annoying dealing with them. first I had to tell them I was all electric, Then I had to tell them I did not want an avionics master, and so on. Even if I do not use the approach systems equipment. It was worth it to me to get the equipment without having some else do the work. Ron Raby Lancair ES ----- Original Message ----- From: "Treff, Arthur" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Panel Input > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Treff, Arthur" > > Darwin sez: > > Equipment list as follows: > > Garmin 340 audio panel > Garmin 430 GPS/Comm > Garmin 106A CDI > Garmin 330S transponder > UPS SL 40 Comm > Trutrak 2 axis AP (not sure which one yet) > Dynon EFIS > ACS2002 engine monitor > Approach systems wiring hub > EXP buss switch panel. > Some sort of CD player > > Back up stuff will be 2.25" airspeed, altimeter, and T&B. > > Fire away, Nomex on!! > > No fireproof clothes necessary, you're among friends here. Good stuff. I've recently gone thru the same decision path for my RV-8. Here's my comments I send to you with the utmost respect. They are my opinions only, not law. My mission profile and needs may be vastly differen t from yours. Here goes: > > Instead of the SL40, you may want to consider the ICOM A-200 comm for a backup. Can be had for approx $750 rather than $1380 for the SL-40. > > As to the Approach Systems Hub, I think it's a great product, but I looked at their pricing and the fact that I didn't think I was going to keep upgrading the panel (which a modular approach begs for), and the price for my panel, even with an OSH discount was in the neighborhood of $1300 just for avionics wiring, not to mention that you have to find a place to put the hub. I have contracted with Stark Avionics http://www.mindspring.com/~jts7/index.htm to pre wire my racks. Mr Stark is wiring the trays only. ONce I'm all done and ready to fly, I'll then plunk down the 10-large for the Garmin boxes. This way, my $$ isn't tied up in radios I cannot use and when I do buy, I hopefully will have the latest datacards and software revs. He charges me up front for the racks, connectors, materials, and his labor BUT when I buy the radios from him (and he has the lowest prices I have found) he credits me back the prices on the racks. After it's all said and done, his matls and l! > abor to wire the whole stack is approx $500. I also paid him extra for a full functional check. Others who have used him have had good things to say. I also got a quote from Pacific Coast Avionics, and they were comparable to Stark, but did not credit back any tray and connector $$. If you're buying your radios at the same time, this would be a non issue. Another friend also used PCA and had great things to say about them as well. Approach looks like a stellar product too. > > Exp bus: look on this list's archives and the Aeroelectric website for a rousing discussion of this manufacturer's merits. I woudn't do it if it were my plane. > > CD Player? I've recently changed on that one, I"ll not mess around with CD's when for a few more $$ you can put a portable 40GB hard drive to store approx 500 CD's and carry it around with you. Why agonize over which CD to take along, when you can have all the music that's important to you (or your whole collection for that matter) with you in the car, in the plane, on the airlines, at a friends house. Do a Google search on the word "iPod". It's made by Apple. Just a 1/8" entertainment jack next to the headphone and mic input to my stereo intercom, and I'll also put a power plug in place as well as an IPod docking station in the plane. BTW, VW is shipping their Bugs with an IPod dock, that may give you an indication of the acceptance of the device. Besides, it's tiny compared to a CD player. > > You appear to be gearing up for IFR flight. Based on that, have you a backup plan if the D-10 goes south in the clag? I'm going with the D-10 but am using the Micro EFIS-3 from PC Flight systems. http://pcflightsystems.com/ At $1200, it's less costly than a TSO'd electric AI, weighs less and draws less power. Aviation Consumer gave it rave reviews this month, including flying acro in a Decathalon. The solid state gyros did not lose lock even after 5 aileron rolls to the left followed by 5 to the right. I applaud your decision to put standard TC as well as altimeter and AS for backup. > > I too thought about 2 1/4 pitot static instruments, but I do not relish flying IFR with reference to non-TSO'd altimeter and airspeeds. If there are TSO'd little gages out there, please let me know, I'll change my panel layout asap. Van's panel is so close, I wish all my gages were smaller. The 3 1/8 gages look huge when I sit in my RV. Oh well. > > Good call on the Trutrack. Friends who fly IFR regularly in their 6's and 8's report good reviews on the Trutrak stuff, and they recommend an A/P for herding an rv in IMC in the bumps. > > ON the Garmin 330? Are you going with the traffic aviodance feature? If so, I'm jealous. Of not, why not consider the 327? You'll save $$. > > In general, I too was avioding the wiring part like the plague. I quickly relaized that there is no off the shelf wiring that will suit my plans. I plagerized others work from their websites, etc. Then I realized that I would just have to knuckle down and draw my own. What I did not re-draw was Bob's Z-13: All Electric Airplane on a Budget. I made a few minor changes to switches, but nothing that forced me into re drawing it. Went to Kinko's and had it blown up as far as I could go. I also suggest getting the wiring drawings that come with their pre fabbed wiring kit. They are really useful for knowing where to put wires thru spars, etc. I think they charged me $3.00 or something. Also buy the optional drawing for the firewall forward. That will help you decide where to put stuff like ground blocks, heat valves, transducer mounts for your ACS monitro. I left the planning until the last minute, but I read Bob's book and hacked away at my simple hand drawn wiring ! > diagrams and wire label spreadsheets all last winter while on business trips. Now that I"m 85% done, I look back at the project and feel a great satisfaction in my design and execution. I also realize that I've really enjoyed the wiring process, an unexpected response. Best advice from an RV-6 builder who did a full IFR panel like I'm doing was, "If you think you may want it, put it in now. It's far easier to wire up a circuit now, only to find out that you don't need it after you're flying." I concur. Also, don't launch into wiring without a plan, even rudimentary drawings will make it go so much easier. Every time I've tried to 'wing' it on the fly instead of drawing a diagram, it ends up taking much longer to install. So, keep planning, do your alternator load analyis, do a FMEA (failure mode effects analysis) for your instrumentation and your power distribution. Keep picking away at it, and just like riveting your wing skins, it'll be done before you know it. ! > This list is the best place to start. Have fun, call me or email me d > > Art Treff > RV-8 Fastback (wiring) > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:23:19 AM PST US From: "Ron Raby" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Lighted, engraved rocker switches --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ron Raby" Scott I used carling technoligies switches L14E1 15A 12V. Lancair uses a guy that does trophy engraving to get these switches engraved. I can send you a digital picture of mine if you want to see what they look like. Ron Raby Lancair ES ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Diffenbaugh" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Lighted, engraved rocker switches > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Scott Diffenbaugh" > > Can anyone point me to a good source for high quality engraved lighted > rocker switches? > If I change my mind and end up going with toggle switches, what is the best > way to light them. (All of my instruments & avionics will be internally > lighted) > > Scott Diffenbaugh > diff@foothill.net > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:25:26 AM PST US From: Charlie Kuss Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Lighted, engraved rocker switches --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss Ron, Are these switches available in other styles besides a simple ON OFF (ie 1-2) switch? Are single pole, double throw & double pole models available? Please e-mail me a copy of the below referenced photos, off list, please. Charlie Kuss >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ron Raby" > >Scott > >I used carling technoligies switches L14E1 15A 12V. >Lancair uses a guy that does trophy engraving to get these switches >engraved. >I can send you a digital picture of mine if you want to see what they look >like. > >Ron Raby > >Lancair ES > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Scott Diffenbaugh" >To: >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Lighted, engraved rocker switches > > >> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Scott Diffenbaugh" > >> >> Can anyone point me to a good source for high quality engraved lighted >> rocker switches? >> If I change my mind and end up going with toggle switches, what is the >best >> way to light them. (All of my instruments & avionics will be internally >> lighted) >> >> Scott Diffenbaugh >> diff@foothill.net >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:46:42 AM PST US From: "Dan Branstrom" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: wire size for charging battery --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Branstrom" Dave, I believe that if you're just using the plug for charging, all you need is a wire that matches the capacity of the charger (fused, of course). For a float charger, or a solar panel, the wire is very small. If you have an RG battery, how long are you going between flying the plane? A charger may not be necessary because of the low self-discharge rate. I believe that for a float charger, you could easily use an audio jack, such as the XLR series from the Shack. (274-013 for mounting on the plane, and 274-010 for the wire to your charger). I have seen one of the plugs used for trailer hitches used for this purpose, too. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong. Dan Branstrom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Ford" Subject: AeroElectric-List: wire size for charging battery > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Ford" > > I'm looking to add a wire to the positive side of my battery with some kind of plug to make it easier to get to and charge my battery on my RV6 instead of contortioning to remove the battery box cover and work with the small PC680 terminal screw and charger clips. I'm wondering if a number 8 cable is sufficient for this application, it would be about 5 feet or less of cable. > > Dave Ford > RV6 > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:52:29 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: wire size for charging battery --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 06:46 AM 11/15/2003 -0800, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Branstrom" > > >Dave, >I believe that if you're just using the plug for charging, all you need is a >wire that matches the capacity of the charger (fused, of course). For a >float charger, or a solar panel, the wire is very small. If you have an RG >battery, how long are you going between flying the plane? A charger may not >be necessary because of the low self-discharge rate. > >I believe that for a float charger, you could easily use an audio jack, such >as the XLR series from the Shack. (274-013 for mounting on the plane, and >274-010 for the wire to your charger). I have seen one of the plugs used >for trailer hitches used for this purpose, too. > >Someone will correct me if I'm wrong. You're right on sir . . . you can tie an external power jack right to the battery with a small, inline fuse appropriate to the chargers max output and you're done. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:56:49 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" stick grip Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Multi-pin plug for Infinity Aerospace stick grip --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" stick grip At 06:48 PM 11/14/2003 -0800, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Richard M. Martin" > > >25 pin sub D > >Richard that would be my connector of choice as well. Bob . . . >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Neil >Clayton >To: cozy_builders@canard.com; canard-aviators@yahoogroups.com; >aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Multi-pin plug for Infinity Aerospace stick >grip > > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Neil Clayton > > >I just received my Infinity Aerospace stick grip and I'd like it to be >readily removable for maintenance and for modification of the switch >configuration. >The wire is a 19 strand bundle, although not all of them may be used. > >Is there a multi-pin plug connector that I could use to plug the stick into >the aeroplane? > >Thanks, >Neil > > Bob . . . -------------------------------------------- ( Knowing about a thing is different than ) ( understanding it. One can know a lot ) ( and still understand nothing. ) ( C.F. Kettering ) -------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:59:36 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Lasar Ignition Draw --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 11:51 PM 11/14/2003 +0100, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Werner Schneider" > > >Its for both together, when I have some time I might do it left and right. I'd be very pleased to have that information. Thank you. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:24:02 AM PST US From: "Scott Diffenbaugh" Subject: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 low voltage warning revisited --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Scott Diffenbaugh" Hi Bob, Just when I thought I had it, I was ambushed. I had wondered about the need for a low voltage warning light if running on SD-8 back up alternator and you responded it wasn't really necessary if I designed my E bus properly, but if I wanted to monitor it I could either hook up my voltmeter to my E bus or use one of your AEC 9005 warning lights. I decided to plan on hooking my ACS-2000 voltmeter display to my E bus and set the parameter to warn me of low voltage. Problem solved until I discovered that the B&C PM/OV kit #504-1 comes with a low voltage warning light, but it is set to light for overvoltage (I assume when the breaker trips) or if the alt switch is left off (I have learned there is no field on a pm alt & if the rpm is sufficient, it is always on). So, do I just leave out the light, or can I benefit from it (might be a nice backup) by maybe wiring it through a 2 pole alt switch? Many thanks. Scott Scott Diffenbaugh diff@foothill.net ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:36:35 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: A new Z-figure drawing? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" >Comments/Questions: Hi Bob, > >I enjoyed your discussion in Sullivan at our Dragonfly/Q fly-in last >month. I think you do a great service to the homebuilder community by >refuting bogus claims and helping us all stay on the straight and narrow >and keep our priorities right. Thank you Dave. That event is one of our yearly favorites. Since the tandem wing crowd is completely without formal factory support, I detect a higher level of technical innovation and exploration by builders there than for any other gathering we frequent. >I've spent the last several years reading over your articles and studying >your diagrams. I'm building a Dragonfly and since I'm a software guy, I >am planning to do a lot of experimenting with glass cockpit designs, EFIS >systems, and homegrown autopilot systems. So I have not only an >all-electric airplane, but a VFR all-computerized panel. Obviously the >integrity of the electrical system is of paramount importance to me. Why? Keep in mind that when you have an item that is necessary for comfortable completion of flight, keeping power available to that device is only part of the equation. There are any number of single component failures that can take that particular piece of equipment down. >I am very interested in having dual alternators and a single RG >battery. I tried many times to separate my electrical loads into >essential bus and main bus, but I can't get rid of the feeling that most >everything is "essential", so I am instead separating things into an >"always-hot" bus with ignition and clock, and a "main" bus with everything >else on it. The "essential bus" is really an ENDURANCE bus . . . it's a highly reliable bus because it has dual power pathways, it's a place to minimize loads on a limited power resource (battery) should the alternator(s) go down . . . 'cause it let's you eliminate the battery contactor drain that is equal to or more than power required for several radios. >I also feel that I should tie both alternators and the battery together, >with a contactor on each of them that allows disconnection of any of them >if they should become psychotic. Again, why? Take Figure Z-13 and hypothesize any and all component failures that you can deduce. Map out a plan of action that works around that failure. Once you've combed through all of the single failures, rank them in order of probability. A yearly-fresh RG battery is probably the most dependable power source you can put in the airplane. Two engine driven power sources back each other up. Multiple, independent feedpaths between engine driven power sources and the battery add another level of dependability. Let's talk about failure mode effects analysis and the development of plan-A, plan-B and perhaps even Plan-C for dealing with all failures we can think of. I belive you'll ultimately come to understand that many of your present concerns are unworthy of the effort, and many if not most of the real concerns are easily and comfortably managed. >I've got a schematic I'd like to show you. It's quite simple and I >believe elegant, and provides for automatic disconnect of failed >alternators (OV crowbar), but also for disconnection of the battery in >case it shorts. I don't know if that is a problem for alternators, but >I'd like your opinion as to whether it is important to be able to >disconnect the battery from the main bus in the event it fails in >flight. I've put 50,000uF caps on the regulator outputs. I can send the >schematic if you have a minute to look it over and give me a sanity check. I think it's better to build and debug a much massaged, tried and proven design. If there are problems heretofore undetected, please share them with us. It's a good thing that everyone knows about them so they can be corrected. If there are features missing that you think are necessary for the way you plan to use the system, we'd all like to know about those too. The first issue of Appendix Z had three or four drawings, it's up to thirty and growing. Each drawing was added to illustrate useful features for consideration by every builder. I think this would be a more useful exercise than to comb out a start-from-scratch architecture. Keep in mind that the elegant solutions EVOLVE . . . Appendix Z represents 17 years of conversations with builders and it will continue evolve for the foreseeable future. Of course, you're free and indeed encouraged to architecture a system that affords you the most comfort. But it would be helpful to the OBAM aviation community at large if we build on work that's gone before rather than start from scratch. Please join us on the AeroElectric-List and share as much as you can with other participants. There are quite a number of software and hardware wieners along with pilots that would be pleased to participate in the evolution of your work as well. May I suggest that you get your Dragonfly airborne by the shortest practical pathway. This might include a first-flight instrument panel that looks like a J-3 Cub. The the platform completed and debugged before you begin to add new, unproven features upon which you will ultimately depend. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:45:22 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-13 questions --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 06:25 PM 11/14/2003 -0800, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Scott Diffenbaugh" > > >Bob, >Just finished reviewing the Z-13 archives again and found answers to a bunch >of my questions. A great resource--Thank you! A couple questions >outstanding: > >1) Found this question but couldn't find your response: How about hooking >the main alt field switch to the battery bus in case the battery contactor >fails? The alternator would then remain on line and continue to power the >main bus. If the battery contactor opens, battery voltage would fall and the regulator would full-field the alternator producing a voltage runaway condition. >Assuming the alternator would be unstable without a battery, could you close >the E bus aux feed switch and backfeed the battery through the diode? I >believe I read in one of the archives that the fuselink is located at the E >bus in case of backfeed. >2) To help me better understand the E bus operation, I would like to pose a >hypothetical situation. If I have an SD-8 back up alternator, and my E bus >load is set up for a hypothetical 20A (it will actually be about 6A typical >to 12A max), and I have my ACS 2002 voltmeter hooked to the E bus, and my >ACS hall amp sensor around the SD-8 "B" lead, and I have a low voltage >warning light installed on the backup circuit, would you mind outlining what >I will see and/or read from the point when I close the aux feed switch until >my E bus devices fail? I don't understand the question. Why would the e-bus devices fail? The goals of Z-13 design are to supply dual pathways and dual engine driven power sources for the e-bus that are on TOP of the battery as a last ditch power source. For the most part, we've said that multiple failures on any single tank of gas are so remote as to be insignificant for consideration in our design. Is the "12A max" load a continuous load you intend to support while en route? All you have to do is get this down to 10A and you're 100% covered by the SD-8. So before you really have to sweat, you have to loose both alternators and then you still have a well-maintained, RG battery to get you down. A yeary-fresh 17 a.h. battery is 1-hour plus endurance and I have to believe you can get your endurance loads lower than 10A. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:56:12 AM PST US From: "Gilles.Thesee" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Future replacement for Rotax rectifier/regulator ? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gilles.Thesee" Hi Bob and all, This is to let you know that a fellow pilot and electrics researcher is willing to undertake the design of a more modern rectifier/regulator for the Rotax 912/914 PM alternator. He is talking about switching and chopping and low heat. We happily offered to flight test the future design. We just spent the afternoon sorting out the schematics of the present regulator. I passed him a stator and rotor to allow for basic measurements and components dimensioning. For what it's worth Regards Gilles ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 01:05:21 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: alternator breaker tripping --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 01:28 PM 11/14/2003 -0600, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Greg's Mail" ><50coperhed@jbntelco.com> > > My OVM was purchased in july of this year and has black and > orange wires. And yes it trips if I switch on either the strobes or > a landing or taxi light. > Thanks Greg Okey, before you do anything else to fix this, send me your ovm for modification. This is a rare occurrence and never happens close by so that I can instrument the airplane to deduce root causes. However, there are some things I can try on your OVM that will let me deduce some root causes without having to actually put my hands on your airplane. It's important that we do only one thing at a time . . . too many times in the past, I've seen a shotgun approach to problem solving. This may produce acceptable results but it always begs the question, which change really fixed it and were they ALL necessary? We have an opportunity to do some good detective work here. I appreciate your willingness to participate. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 01:11:29 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Crowbar OV protection --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 06:11 AM 11/14/2003 -0800, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski > > >I cringe as I say this, but it was a breaker switch. So maybe the OVM was >tripping the breaker/switch? Okay . . . yes, if you have a breaker-switch in the alternator field circuit and it appears to open all by itself when you are switching other things in the system, it may well be a nuisance trip of the OV module. I'm working with another builder on the same issue. We've shipped nearly 1000 of these things over the past 10 years and they're rarely a problem but there are some airplanes that seem intent on pushing the current design past limits. Let's see what I find out on the other case and then we'll work on yours. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 02:52:21 PM PST US From: "Jonathan & Kathryn Hults" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Multi-pin plug for Infinity Aerospace stick grip --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jonathan & Kathryn Hults" Neil, Call J.D. at Infinity Aerospace. He had one of his stick grips at Oshkosh last year already configured with a cannon plug type pin connector with a threaded bezel to screw it onto the end of your control stick! He said you can just unscrew it and take it with you when you get out of the airplane (for security) if you want to. Jon Lancair Legacy -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Neil Clayton aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Multi-pin plug for Infinity Aerospace stick grip --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Neil Clayton --> I just received my Infinity Aerospace stick grip and I'd like it to be readily removable for maintenance and for modification of the switch configuration. The wire is a 19 strand bundle, although not all of them may be used. Is there a multi-pin plug connector that I could use to plug the stick into the aeroplane? Thanks, Neil = == direct advertising on the Matronics Forums. == == == ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 03:50:11 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: fuses vs. CBs --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 01:21 AM 11/12/2003 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chad Robinson > > > > Why would you want to add so much $time$ to a product that > > has about one chance in 1000 of ever doing something useful? > > > > Once you're past the development phase of your design and all > > construction faults and nuisance trips are fixed, it's quite > > likely that your airplane will run a lifetime and never open > > a fuse. > >Uhhhh, I don't. I asked for one pre-made. I'm asking for a fuse block >that has these suckers built in. If you read my original message I said >I didn't want to be the one doing this. I agree it's a waste of time, >and fuses with LEDs built in are overpriced and a waste of money. =) I guess I don't understand . . . a fuse block with breakers built in? >I love playing Devil's Advocate, so I'll bite. How about this for an >argument? It's nice information to have when your engine starts cutting >out on your third test flight that you can glance down and see your fuel >pump (EFI here) has blown a fuse, perhaps because you DIDN'T fasten >things down as well as you thought and a wire abraded and shorted out. >You sure as heck aren't going to reach down and try to put in a new fuse >- it blew for a reason. But you can also avoid wasting time on trying an >engine restart, which reduces your workload somewhat. As long as you >aren't overloading the pilot with information (and you have to really >LOOK to get this bit) having more information available is often nice. Is this the one and only device that will provide adequate fuel flow to your engine? What do you do when THAT device quits? Or a wire comes unhooked? And, suppose you DID see that a fuse is blown, what is the likelihood that the next fuse you put in won't blow too? >In point of fact I don't actually want them but when curiosity gets >ahold of me I like to track things down. I don't know what the weather's >like by you, but it's 15 degrees outside here tonight, so no plane >building for me (unheated shop). In the winter, research is all I can do. Its a good time to tidy up the shop sketches of your wiring into real nice pages for your finished wirebook too . . . Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 03:50:12 PM PST US From: Dave Morris stick grip Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Multi-pin plug for Infinity Aerospace stick grip --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dave Morris stick grip How about a DB-25? That's what I plan to use. Dave Morris At 02:51 PM 11/15/2003 -0800, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Neil Clayton >--> > >I just received my Infinity Aerospace stick grip and I'd like it to be >readily removable for maintenance and for modification of the switch >configuration. >The wire is a 19 strand bundle, although not all of them may be used. > >Is there a multi-pin plug connector that I could use to plug the stick >into >the aeroplane? > >Thanks, >Neil > > >>== >direct advertising on the Matronics Forums. >== >== >== > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 06:21:25 PM PST US From: Chad Robinson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: fuses vs. CBs --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chad Robinson On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 17:49:46 -0600 "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > > At 01:21 AM 11/12/2003 -0500, you wrote: > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chad Robinson > > > > > > > Why would you want to add so much $time$ to a product that > > > has about one chance in 1000 of ever doing something useful? > > > > > > Once you're past the development phase of your design and all > > > construction faults and nuisance trips are fixed, it's quite > > > likely that your airplane will run a lifetime and never open > > > a fuse. > > > >Uhhhh, I don't. I asked for one pre-made. I'm asking for a fuse block > >that has these suckers built in. If you read my original message I > >said I didn't want to be the one doing this. I agree it's a waste of > >time, and fuses with LEDs built in are overpriced and a waste of > >money. =) > > I guess I don't understand . . . a fuse block with breakers built > in? Ummm, maybe we're not on the same page here. I don't want breakers. I hate breakers. I hate breakers almost as much as you do - I say almost because I'm not sure anybody really dislikes them THAT much. =) LEDs to show which fuse failed. That's what I want. I can do it myself with a small board next to the fuse block, I just don't want to. I'd rather have something molded and professionally made. > >I love playing Devil's Advocate, so I'll bite. How about this for an > >argument? It's nice information to have when your engine starts > >cutting out on your third test flight that you can glance down and > >see your fuel pump (EFI here) has blown a fuse, perhaps because you > >DIDN'T fasten things down as well as you thought and a wire abraded > >and shorted out. You sure as heck aren't going to reach down and try > >to put in a new fuse- it blew for a reason. But you can also avoid > >wasting time on trying an engine restart, which reduces your workload > >somewhat. As long as you aren't overloading the pilot with > >information (and you have to really LOOK to get this bit) having more > >information available is often nice. > > Is this the one and only device that will provide adequate > fuel flow to your engine? What do you do when THAT device quits? > Or a wire comes unhooked? And, suppose you DID see that a fuse > is blown, what is the likelihood that the next fuse you put in > won't blow too? Nope, there are two fuel pumps. Actually, both are electric, so you just gave me another reason to justify this. Since I only actually require one, fuel pressure alone may not (will not) be sufficient to tell me a fuse has blown and thus one of the pumps is offline. > >In point of fact I don't actually want them but when curiosity gets > >ahold of me I like to track things down. I don't know what the > >weather's like by you, but it's 15 degrees outside here tonight, so > >no plane building for me (unheated shop). In the winter, research is > >all I can do. > > Its a good time to tidy up the shop sketches of your wiring > into real nice pages for your finished wirebook too . . . Yeah. If I had any idea what instruments I was planning to use I'd do that. =) Seriously, Bob, I'm really on the very early side of things here, but I like to be as COMPLETELY informed as possible before I make a decision. For me, that means months of discussion and thinking before I made a decision. I yam what I yam. Regards, Curious Chad ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 06:49:26 PM PST US From: "Dan Branstrom" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: fuses vs. CBs --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Branstrom" > LEDs to show which fuse failed. That's what I want. I can do it myself with a small board next to the fuse block, I just don't want to. I'd rather have something molded and professionally made. > Just a warning about putting anything (like an LED) across where the fuse goes: I have a friend who put grain of wheat bulbs parallel to the fuse connections. The theory was that if a fuse blew, he would know which one it was, because the light would come on. The problem? I had pulled the fuse to work on something (which would usually disconnect the item). There was enough residual current flowing through the bulb to the circuit to zap me a bit. Dan Branstrom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chad Robinson" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: fuses vs. CBs > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chad Robinson > > On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 17:49:46 -0600 "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > wrote: > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > > > > > At 01:21 AM 11/12/2003 -0500, you wrote: > > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chad Robinson > > > > > > > > > > Why would you want to add so much $time$ to a product that > > > > has about one chance in 1000 of ever doing something useful? > > > > > > > > Once you're past the development phase of your design and all > > > > construction faults and nuisance trips are fixed, it's quite > > > > likely that your airplane will run a lifetime and never open > > > > a fuse. > > > > > >Uhhhh, I don't. I asked for one pre-made. I'm asking for a fuse block > > >that has these suckers built in. If you read my original message I > > >said I didn't want to be the one doing this. I agree it's a waste of > > >time, and fuses with LEDs built in are overpriced and a waste of > > >money. =) > > > > I guess I don't understand . . . a fuse block with breakers built > > in? > > Ummm, maybe we're not on the same page here. I don't want breakers. I hate breakers. I hate breakers almost as much as you do - I say almost because I'm not sure anybody really dislikes them THAT much. =) > > LEDs to show which fuse failed. That's what I want. I can do it myself with a small board next to the fuse block, I just don't want to. I'd rather have something molded and professionally made. > > > >I love playing Devil's Advocate, so I'll bite. How about this for an > > >argument? It's nice information to have when your engine starts > > >cutting out on your third test flight that you can glance down and > > >see your fuel pump (EFI here) has blown a fuse, perhaps because you > > >DIDN'T fasten things down as well as you thought and a wire abraded > > >and shorted out. You sure as heck aren't going to reach down and try > > >to put in a new fuse- it blew for a reason. But you can also avoid > > >wasting time on trying an engine restart, which reduces your workload > > >somewhat. As long as you aren't overloading the pilot with > > >information (and you have to really LOOK to get this bit) having more > > >information available is often nice. > > > > Is this the one and only device that will provide adequate > > fuel flow to your engine? What do you do when THAT device quits? > > Or a wire comes unhooked? And, suppose you DID see that a fuse > > is blown, what is the likelihood that the next fuse you put in > > won't blow too? > > Nope, there are two fuel pumps. Actually, both are electric, so you just gave me another reason to justify this. Since I only actually require one, fuel pressure alone may not (will not) be sufficient to tell me a fuse has blown and thus one of the pumps is offline. > > > >In point of fact I don't actually want them but when curiosity gets > > >ahold of me I like to track things down. I don't know what the > > >weather's like by you, but it's 15 degrees outside here tonight, so > > >no plane building for me (unheated shop). In the winter, research is > > >all I can do. > > > > Its a good time to tidy up the shop sketches of your wiring > > into real nice pages for your finished wirebook too . . . > > Yeah. If I had any idea what instruments I was planning to use I'd do that. =) Seriously, Bob, I'm really on the very early side of things here, but I like to be as COMPLETELY informed as possible before I make a decision. For me, that means months of discussion and thinking before I made a decision. I yam what I yam. > > Regards, > Curious Chad > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 07:35:34 PM PST US From: Dave Morris Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: A new Z-figure drawing? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dave Morris At 01:36 PM 11/15/2003 -0600, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > >I've spent the last several years reading over your articles and studying > >your diagrams. I'm building a Dragonfly and since I'm a software guy, I > >am planning to do a lot of experimenting with glass cockpit designs, EFIS > >systems, and homegrown autopilot systems. So I have not only an > >all-electric airplane, but a VFR all-computerized panel. Obviously the > >integrity of the electrical system is of paramount importance to me. > > Why? Keep in mind that when you have an item that is necessary for >comfortable > completion of flight, keeping power available to that device is only > part of > the equation. There are any number of single component failures that can > take that particular piece of equipment down. > I don't mean that the electrical system is more important than, say, the fuel system. What I mean is that, since I am using a Rocky Mountain MicroEncoder as altimeter and airspeed indicator, and since I am not using magnetos to drive the ignition of my Corvair engine, I cannot simply shut off the master and keep flying; I MUST have power or I become a glider. I realize that's not the choice many would make, but I feel the risk can be mitigated by providing redundancy either in the form of 2 batteries or 2 alternators. I am thinking I would rather have 2 alternators because 1) the Corvair has a convenient way of doing it, and 2) the alternator weight considerably less than another battery. > >I also feel that I should tie both alternators and the battery together, > >with a contactor on each of them that allows disconnection of any of them > >if they should become psychotic. > > Again, why? Take Figure Z-13 and hypothesize any and all component > failures that you can deduce. Map out a plan of action that works around > that failure. Once you've combed through all of the single failures, > rank them in order of probability. A yearly-fresh RG battery is probably > the most dependable power source you can put in the airplane. Two engine > driven power sources back each other up. Multiple, independent feedpaths > between engine driven power sources and the battery add another level > of dependability. > > Let's talk about failure mode effects analysis and > the development of plan-A, plan-B and perhaps even Plan-C > for dealing with all failures we can think of. I belive > you'll ultimately come to understand that many of your > present concerns are unworthy of the effort, and many > if not most of the real concerns are easily and comfortably > managed. > OK, the main question I have about Z-13 is what types of battery failures can be expected, and what will happen in those failures. I know that in my car, I have replaced many more batteries than I have replaced alternators. The battery failures usually only manifested themselves when trying to crank the car, and often involved "shorted plates" or whatever they are calling it nowadays when the battery only puts out 8 or 10 volts. And I've seen it happen a few times with fairly new batteries. I have no experience with RG batteries, and I don't know what the effect would be on the alternator of such a battery failure in flight. That was the reason I thought it would be a good idea to be able to isolate the battery completely from the rest of the system. Am I worrying about nothing? > May I suggest that you get your Dragonfly airborne by the > shortest practical pathway. This might include a first-flight > instrument panel that looks like a J-3 Cub. The the > platform completed and debugged before you begin to > add new, unproven features upon which you will ultimately > depend. I agree in principal, and would love to get this thing flying ASAP. In practice it is difficult with the Dragonfly to come back later and make extensive modifications, because the composite construction makes it difficult to get access to things later on after you've closed everything up with epoxy. Dave Morris Dragonly N55UP under construction ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 08:35:48 PM PST US From: "Brian Meyette" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Mounting Ground Bus --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Brian Meyette" Where is your book sold, Bob? I'd like to get a copy. brian -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Mounting Ground Bus --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 05:33 AM 9/16/2003 -0700, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jack Lockamy" > >Bob, > >I have your AeroConnection Book and monitor this list. Lots of great info >from both sources... However, I still am a bit confused about how to >mount the Ground Bus to a metal firewall in an all metal airplane (RV-7A). > >Does the ground bus mount DIRECTLY to the firewall or is it mounted on >stand-offs? If it is mounted directly to the firewall, how is running all >the ground wires to local ground connections any different than going to >the Ground Bus? I must be missing something simple here. It mounts right on the firewall. Check out the chapter on noise and in particular, "ground loops". It's important that all panel and/or engine compartment stuff come to the single point ground on firewall. Remove any jumpers that might exist across engine mount isolators. Ground crankcase to firewall bus stud with beefy jumper strap. Take battery (-) to ground stud on firewall. There are a few non-victim/non-antagonist components that can ground locally. Lamps in wings and tail, pitot heat, & strobe power supply. Bob . . . --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. --- ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 09:01:37 PM PST US From: "Dan Branstrom" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Mounting Ground Bus --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Branstrom" I'll reply for Bob. Go to http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AECcatalog.html You can order it directly from him. If you want to call him or use snail mail: The AeroElectric Connection 6936 Bainbridge Road Wichita, KS 67226-1008 Fax/Phone: 316-685-8617 Dan Branstrom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Meyette" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Mounting Ground Bus > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Brian Meyette" > > Where is your book sold, Bob? I'd like to get a copy. > brian > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert L. > Nuckolls, III > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Mounting Ground Bus > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > > At 05:33 AM 9/16/2003 -0700, you wrote: > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jack Lockamy" > > > > >Bob, > > > >I have your AeroConnection Book and monitor this list. Lots of great info > >from both sources... However, I still am a bit confused about how to > >mount the Ground Bus to a metal firewall in an all metal airplane (RV-7A). > > > >Does the ground bus mount DIRECTLY to the firewall or is it mounted on > >stand-offs? If it is mounted directly to the firewall, how is running all > >the ground wires to local ground connections any different than going to > >the Ground Bus? I must be missing something simple here. > > It mounts right on the firewall. Check out the chapter on noise > and in particular, "ground loops". It's important that all panel > and/or engine compartment stuff come to the single point ground > on firewall. Remove any jumpers that might exist across engine > mount isolators. Ground crankcase to firewall bus stud with > beefy jumper strap. Take battery (-) to ground stud on firewall. > > There are a few non-victim/non-antagonist components that > can ground locally. Lamps in wings and tail, pitot heat, & strobe > power supply. > > Bob . . . > > > --- > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > > --- > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 09:33:31 PM PST US From: "Jon Finley" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Source of Toroid Baluns --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jon Finley" Hi all, Anyone know if the toroid balun's (beads) used on copper foil antenna coax is available at a local supplier (Radio Shack??). I've found them at AS&S and RST - just seems like a waste to have to order three of the little things. Thanks! Jon Finley N90MG Q2 - Subaru EJ-22 DD - 461 Hrs. TT Apple Valley, Minnesota http://www.FinleyWeb.net/Q2Subaru ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 09:58:55 PM PST US From: Richard@riley.net Subject: AeroElectric-List: Looking for an installer, central CA --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Richard@Riley.net Anyone have a referral for an avionics installer to work on a certified airplane (Super Viking) in range of central California, that will install things not purchased through him? ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 10:55:13 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Source of Toroid Baluns --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 11:32 PM 11/15/2003 -0600, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jon Finley" > >Hi all, > >Anyone know if the toroid balun's (beads) used on copper foil antenna >coax is available at a local supplier (Radio Shack??). I've found them >at AS&S and RST - just seems like a waste to have to order three of the >little things. > >Thanks! The toroidal cores slipped over the coax feedline of some popular antenna designs adds no measurable improvement of performance vis-a-vis leaving them off entirely. I saw this demonstrated in an antenna lab on two different occasions. Just tie the coax center and shield to the two halves of a diple and drive on without the toroids. The antenna will work just fine. Cessna did this for a lot of years. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 11:25:13 PM PST US From: "Dan Branstrom" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: A new Z-figure drawing? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Branstrom" Hi Dave, I'm sitting around trying to organize what I've read in Bob's book & at the seminar last weekend, and writing a reply to your posting is the means I'm using to etch the concepts in my mind. If you don't have it, I highly urge you buy Bob's book, The Aero-Electric Connection (which can be ordered directly from him at http://www.aeroelectric.com/ . It has the reasoning behind each of the decisions that Bob recommends. No, I don't get anything for shilling for him. I think it's worth every penny. Included in the book is a discussion of batteries and the reasons for using a RGB (Re-Combiant Gas) battery, as well as how to make sure that it will perform up to its capabilities. (The main one is to change it every other year). The RGB battery has a much lower internal resistance than the traditional lead-acid battery in your car. That means that it is able to deliver the current needed for starting at a lower voltage than your car battery. The RGB battery also has a much lower self-discharge rate than your car battery, so it can sit unused for a longer period of time. It also has no need for venting and even if it does vent (because of overheating), no acids or hydrogen come out. As I remember it, RGB batteries are also lighter. You have little worry about corrosion on terminals, because there are no corrosive gasses to given off. Corrosion on the terminals and wires to the batteries that comes from the batteries themselves often contribute to or even cause the killing of car batteries. In the book, (especially Chapter 17) Bob goes into the reasoning behind the architectures of the wiring diagrams. The previous chapters cover the different components of aircraft electrical systems. He has changed one term from the book. Instead of calling the bus that has to keep working the "essential bus," he now calls it the "endurance bus." What goes on that bus is what you need to continue to fly for a certain period (endurance) after alternator failure. In the simplest form, the generator or alternator powers the main bus, and current flows from the main bus to the endurance bus and to the battery. There is a diode between the main and endurance bus which allows the main bus to power the essential bus, but preventsthe opposite. If the generator fails, the voltage of the bus drops enough to turn on the low voltage light. A switch is thrown to connect the battery directly to the endurance bus, and then the battery contactor is shut off (saving the load of the contactor). That unloads anything unnecessary from the battery. Electronic ignition and your RMI MicroEncoder go on endurance bus. My question to you is, are you planning on flying IFR? (Personally, I consider night flying nearly the equivalent). If I was to build your plane, I would have 2 batteries. The second battery would be dedicated to ignition and the MicroEncoder. I'm wondering if a Quickie can be flown like most planes in a VFR environment without an airspeed indicator, so is the MicroEncoder absolutely necessary if you're flying VFR? (The second battery can be smaller than the main battery, and sized so that it will power the ignition and MicroEncoder for a given period of time after total alternator failure). That way, if I was flying at night, and on landing threw on the landing light, (who said I was smart), the landing light would not be drawing any power from the second battery that only powers the endurance bus. The light might not work, but at least the plane would keep flying. O.K., I have the same experience with alternators and batteries in automobiles. Alternators far outlast batteries in cars for me. The problem is that many alternators are not self exciting. If a load spike draws the voltage down below a certain level, the alternator quits working. That was not a problem with generators. They are self-exciting, but the engine must be running much faster than idle to provide charging capability. On your car, (that has an alternator) if you remove the battery after your engine is running, it will probably continue to run. If you flip on your turn indicators, especially the older type that use relays, the load will cause your engine to die. On the other hand, I once drove a car with points fired ignition (which uses more electricity than the modern solid state kind) from Iowa to California without an alternator. I only drove during the day, and every night I found a stop where I could charge the battery overnight. I was ferrying the car, and I didn't want to get involved with replacing the alternator. Luckily, I only had to use the windshield wipers occasionally, (which uses a lot of juice) and it was a stick shift so I didn't have to use the starter after the first start in the morning because I would find a hill or slight slope so I could push start it during the day. With a generator (self-exciting), and a dead battery, if you throttled back to a point well above idle, the voltage would probably drop to the point that you couldn't power the ignition. Testing the battery when new and at intervals will tell you what it's capacity is, but it's easier to change it periodically to keep your battery fresh. When you know how many watt hours are in the battery when the charging quits and know the load placed on the endurance bus, you will know how long you can fly before the motor quits for lack of electricity. Dan Branstrom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Morris" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: A new Z-figure drawing? > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dave Morris > > At 01:36 PM 11/15/2003 -0600, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > >I've spent the last several years reading over your articles and studying > > >your diagrams. I'm building a Dragonfly and since I'm a software guy, I > > >am planning to do a lot of experimenting with glass cockpit designs, EFIS > > >systems, and homegrown autopilot systems. So I have not only an > > >all-electric airplane, but a VFR all-computerized panel. Obviously the > > >integrity of the electrical system is of paramount importance to me. > > > > Why? Keep in mind that when you have an item that is necessary for > >comfortable > > completion of flight, keeping power available to that device is only > > part of > > the equation. There are any number of single component failures that can > > take that particular piece of equipment down. > > > > I don't mean that the electrical system is more important than, say, the > fuel system. What I mean is that, since I am using a Rocky Mountain > MicroEncoder as altimeter and airspeed indicator, and since I am not using > magnetos to drive the ignition of my Corvair engine, I cannot simply shut > off the master and keep flying; I MUST have power or I become a glider. I > realize that's not the choice many would make, but I feel the risk can be > mitigated by providing redundancy either in the form of 2 batteries or 2 > alternators. I am thinking I would rather have 2 alternators because 1) > the Corvair has a convenient way of doing it, and 2) the alternator weight > considerably less than another battery. > > > > >I also feel that I should tie both alternators and the battery together, > > >with a contactor on each of them that allows disconnection of any of them > > >if they should become psychotic. > > > > Again, why? Take Figure Z-13 and hypothesize any and all component > > failures that you can deduce. Map out a plan of action that works around > > that failure. Once you've combed through all of the single failures, > > rank them in order of probability. A yearly-fresh RG battery is probably > > the most dependable power source you can put in the airplane. Two engine > > driven power sources back each other up. Multiple, independent feedpaths > > between engine driven power sources and the battery add another level > > of dependability. > > > > Let's talk about failure mode effects analysis and > > the development of plan-A, plan-B and perhaps even Plan-C > > for dealing with all failures we can think of. I belive > > you'll ultimately come to understand that many of your > > present concerns are unworthy of the effort, and many > > if not most of the real concerns are easily and comfortably > > managed. > > > > OK, the main question I have about Z-13 is what types of battery failures > can be expected, and what will happen in those failures. I know that in my > car, I have replaced many more batteries than I have replaced > alternators. The battery failures usually only manifested themselves when > trying to crank the car, and often involved "shorted plates" or whatever > they are calling it nowadays when the battery only puts out 8 or 10 > volts. And I've seen it happen a few times with fairly new batteries. I > have no experience with RG batteries, and I don't know what the effect > would be on the alternator of such a battery failure in flight. That was > the reason I thought it would be a good idea to be able to isolate the > battery completely from the rest of the system. Am I worrying about nothing? > > > > May I suggest that you get your Dragonfly airborne by the > > shortest practical pathway. This might include a first-flight > > instrument panel that looks like a J-3 Cub. The the > > platform completed and debugged before you begin to > > add new, unproven features upon which you will ultimately > > depend. > > I agree in principal, and would love to get this thing flying ASAP. In > practice it is difficult with the Dragonfly to come back later and make > extensive modifications, because the composite construction makes it > difficult to get access to things later on after you've closed everything > up with epoxy. > > Dave Morris > Dragonly N55UP under construction > >