---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 11/18/03: 23 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:59 AM - Re: wire size for charging battery (Dan Checkoway) 2. 01:58 AM - Re: tach wiring Rotax 912S (Duncan McBride) 3. 04:35 AM - ROTAX 912 regulator (mainly) ... (Michel RIAZUELO) 4. 05:07 AM - Re: Future replacement for Rotax (klehman@albedo.net) 5. 05:07 AM - amphib gear warning (klehman@albedo.net) 6. 05:26 AM - Re: amphib gear warning (BobsV35B@aol.com) 7. 06:35 AM - Re: amphib gear warning (Rhett Westerman) 8. 07:28 AM - Re: noise from strobes (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 09:45 AM - Re: Re: fuses vs. CBs (Phil Birkelbach) 10. 10:15 AM - LOC? - What's That? (Matt Dralle) 11. 10:41 AM - Re: Re: fuses vs. CBs (Dan Branstrom) 12. 11:21 AM - Re: Cool schematic CAD program (Bob Gibson) 13. 01:18 PM - Re: Future replacement for Rotax (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 14. 01:22 PM - Re: Re: fuses vs. CBs (Chad Robinson) 15. 01:40 PM - Re: Re: fuses vs. CBs (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 16. 02:53 PM - Re: Future replacement for Rotax (Gilles.Thesee) 17. 07:18 PM - Re: Future replacement for Rotax (David Carter) 18. 07:29 PM - Re: Future replacement for Rotax (Dave Morris) 19. 07:35 PM - Re: Future replacement for Rotax (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 20. 07:44 PM - Re: Future replacement for Rotax (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 21. 08:09 PM - Re: Future replacement for Rotax (David Carter) 22. 10:45 PM - Re: Cool schematic CAD program (j1j2h3@juno.com) 23. 11:31 PM - Rgulator and heat (Werner Schneider) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:59:40 AM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: wire size for charging battery --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" > Which is why you put some form of circuit protection in ANY wire > attached to ANY battery for ANY reason. Bob, I pretty much followed Z-11 on my RV-7, and I've got a 14AWG wire between the battery (+) terminal and my battery bus. The battery is just fwd of the firewall, and the battery bus is just aft of the firewall. The wire is completely unprotected. I believe this has come up before, and if I recall the answer was that as long as the wire is as short as possible (i.e. around 6" or less), circuit protection for that short wire is not "required" in this case. Is that true in this case, or would you install a fuse link on that wire, positioned as close as practical to the (+) terminal? I'm probably just taking your comment above too literally, but I figure it can't hurt to clarify. ;-) Thanks in advance, )_( Dan RV-7 N714D http://www.rvproject.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:58:25 AM PST US From: "Duncan McBride" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: tach wiring Rotax 912S --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Duncan McBride" I have a 912 on a Kolb Twinstar. When I was trying to determine the source of noise in my com radio, I heard from several sources that the tach lead was a source of noise. I disconnected the leads from the system and tried the radio. There wasn't any difference in the noise, which I've determined was due to wind and audio noise coming through the microphones. I wouldn't change it if it's already wired, unless a test revealed it was the source of interference. It's easy enough to test. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joa Harrison" Subject: AeroElectric-List: tach wiring Rotax 912S > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Joa Harrison > > When wiring the tach on the 912S is shielded wire needed going from the engine sender to the unit? > > Joa > > > --------------------------------- > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:35:57 AM PST US From: "Michel RIAZUELO" Subject: AeroElectric-List: ROTAX 912 regulator (mainly) ... --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Michel RIAZUELO" Hi Bob, My reading of THE book advances well. I would recommend to the future readers who are already a little informed in electricity and electronics topics, to start with the chapter "Electrical System Reliability". It lights the general philosphy and gives desire for reading all the remainder!!! Some questions: (1) Why the starter contactor is conected in series with the master switch? Which would be the disadvantage if the starter contactor were directly connected to B+? (2) The alternator of the ROTAX 912 is a permanent magnet model. If I well understood, the power which it delivers depends only its RPM. I thus think that work of regulator DUCATI consists in transforming into heat the electric output not consumed by the aircraft equipments. It has the reputation to be often transformed into toaster. Is this true or false? The recent answer of Bob is a beginning of explanation. >My experiment with Ducati shares suggests poor to attention >design with respect to keeping internal shares of the regulator >within to their best operating temperature arranges. B&C' S "heavy >duty "regulator was nothing more that the standard circuit >with robust, well heat-sinked shares. Which is the B&C regulator reference? Does its installation allow to strongly reduce the probability of having troubles? (3) I fixed two 15 cm angles aluminium (40 mm x 40 mm) to increase the thermal heat-transferring surface. I am not certain effectiveness but I think that cannot worsen the situation. Am I right or wrong ? (4) What hapens when the alternator is not connected (I wire following Z-16), because the master switch in on median position or because the OVM did its work. Does the regulator transform all the power into heat, or isolate the alternator ? (5) I wire with Z-16, but I would evolve in the spirit of Z-12 if the autonomy of the E-bus is not sufficient for my travels. Which model of secondary alternator is well adapted to the ROTAX 912 and able to provide approximately 10 A (other that that of ROTAX)? Thanks for your answer. Regards. Michel RIAZUELO MCR SPORTSTER in progress Cholet FRANCE ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:07:31 AM PST US From: klehman@albedo.net Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Future replacement for Rotax --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: klehman@albedo.net Is the John Deere rectifier/regulator any better (or different) than the Rotax/Ducati? They us it on a large PM alternator that is good for at least 20 amps. Ken ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:07:31 AM PST US From: klehman@albedo.net Subject: AeroElectric-List: amphib gear warning --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: klehman@albedo.net Hi It makes such a mess when you land an amphib floatplane gear down in water that I was giving a little thought to an intelligent gear warning. There are some cheap DIY candidates for a trigger such as hardware store electronic rulers or other more conventional methods. However does anyone have any thoughts on a device that would discern the difference between land and water from at least 10 and preferably about 50 feet? My first thought was the microwave oven frequency of 2.45 ghz but something cheaper and safer to play with would be nice. Something like 90% accuracy would be sufficient for a cheap DIY project. It just has to be accurate enough to prompt an overshoot and sort it out later "just in case"... thanks Ken ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:26:40 AM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: amphib gear warning --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com In a message dated 11/18/03 7:13:32 AM Central Standard Time, klehman@albedo.net writes: It makes such a mess when you land an amphib floatplane gear down in water that I was giving a little thought to an intelligent gear warning. Good Morning Ken, This idea won't be automatic, but I did see something on a Republic SeaBee many years ago that I thought was the best I had ever seen on an amphibian. This owner had made two little boxes that each would hold a standard thirty-five millimeter photograph transparency slide. The boxes were mounted side by side at the very top of the instrument panel directly in the pilots line of sight over the nose. They were each equipped with a bulb to light the transparency One was lighted by the gear up light circuit and the other was lighted when the gear was down. The gear up transparency was a view of an idyllic lake setting. The gear down light was a picture of a nice, well painted and marked, asphalt runway. As long as the view out the window matched the lighted transparency, all was well. Of course, you still have to remember to look! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:35:35 AM PST US From: "Rhett Westerman" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: amphib gear warning --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rhett Westerman" Ken, I have the Lake warning system on my amphib and it works well, but not cheap. I saw an add last month for a non stc version at about half the cost in the EAA sport aviation mag. The lake works on airspeed. When the airspeed goes below a certain limit, it notifies you of the expected landing terrain based on wheel position indicators. For me, the system you describe that identifies land or water would not work for me as I fly in and out of small canals and often come in for a water landing low over terrain before reaching water. best, Rhett -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of klehman@albedo.net Subject: AeroElectric-List: amphib gear warning --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: klehman@albedo.net Hi It makes such a mess when you land an amphib floatplane gear down in water that I was giving a little thought to an intelligent gear warning. There are some cheap DIY candidates for a trigger such as hardware store electronic rulers or other more conventional methods. However does anyone have any thoughts on a device that would discern the difference between land and water from at least 10 and preferably about 50 feet? My first thought was the microwave oven frequency of 2.45 ghz but something cheaper and safer to play with would be nice. Something like 90% accuracy would be sufficient for a cheap DIY project. It just has to be accurate enough to prompt an overshoot and sort it out later "just in case"... thanks Ken ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:28:26 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: noise from strobes --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 12:52 AM 11/18/2003 -0600, you wrote: >Bob, > >Thanks much. I`m going to order the fat capacitor from B&C and start as >you advised. Do the battery experiment first to make sure the noise is getting out on the power leads. If it got another pathway, adding the capacitor won't help. Bob . . . -------------------------------------------- ( Knowing about a thing is different than ) ( understanding it. One can know a lot ) ( and still understand nothing. ) ( C.F. Kettering ) -------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:45:40 AM PST US From: "Phil Birkelbach" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: fuses vs. CBs --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Phil Birkelbach" The company that I work for puts blown fuse indicator type terminal blocks in the panels that we build as a matter of practice. Personally I hate the things. They only give you useful information about half the time, and they make troubleshooting the circuilt a nightmare. They make testing the circuit with a voltmeter all but impossible because there is ALWAYS voltage downstream of the fuse, even when the fuse is blown. Another problem is that the circuit must have load on it for the indicator to work in the first place. You can't just look at the indicators during pre-flight and get any useful information because any circuit that is not turned on (lights, autopilot etc.) will not indicate a blown fuse anyway. I personally agree with Bob. If the device is necessary for flight check it's operation during the preflight (not the status of it's circuit protection device) and then fly comfortably. Godspeed, Phil Birkelbach - Houston Texas RV-7 N727WB (Reserved) - Canopy http://www.myrv7.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Branstrom" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: fuses vs. CBs > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Branstrom" > > > LEDs to show which fuse failed. That's what I want. I can do it > myself with a small board next to the fuse block, I just don't want to. I'd > rather have something molded and professionally made. > > > Just a warning about putting anything (like an LED) across where the fuse > goes: I have a friend who put grain of wheat bulbs parallel to the fuse > connections. The theory was that if a fuse blew, he would know which one it > was, because the light would come on. The problem? I had pulled the fuse > to work on something (which would usually disconnect the item). There was > enough residual current flowing through the bulb to the circuit to zap me a > bit. > Dan Branstrom > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chad Robinson" > To: > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: fuses vs. CBs > > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chad Robinson > > > > > On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 17:49:46 -0600 "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > wrote: > > > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > > > > > > > > At 01:21 AM 11/12/2003 -0500, you wrote: > > > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chad Robinson > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why would you want to add so much $time$ to a product that > > > > > has about one chance in 1000 of ever doing something useful? > > > > > > > > > > Once you're past the development phase of your design and all > > > > > construction faults and nuisance trips are fixed, it's quite > > > > > likely that your airplane will run a lifetime and never open > > > > > a fuse. > > > > > > > >Uhhhh, I don't. I asked for one pre-made. I'm asking for a fuse block > > > >that has these suckers built in. If you read my original message I > > > >said I didn't want to be the one doing this. I agree it's a waste of > > > >time, and fuses with LEDs built in are overpriced and a waste of > > > >money. =) > > > > > > I guess I don't understand . . . a fuse block with breakers built > > > in? > > > > Ummm, maybe we're not on the same page here. I don't want breakers. I hate > breakers. I hate breakers almost as much as you do - I say almost because > I'm not sure anybody really dislikes them THAT much. =) > > > > LEDs to show which fuse failed. That's what I want. I can do it myself > with a small board next to the fuse block, I just don't want to. I'd rather > have something molded and professionally made. > > > > > >I love playing Devil's Advocate, so I'll bite. How about this for an > > > >argument? It's nice information to have when your engine starts > > > >cutting out on your third test flight that you can glance down and > > > >see your fuel pump (EFI here) has blown a fuse, perhaps because you > > > >DIDN'T fasten things down as well as you thought and a wire abraded > > > >and shorted out. You sure as heck aren't going to reach down and try > > > >to put in a new fuse- it blew for a reason. But you can also avoid > > > >wasting time on trying an engine restart, which reduces your workload > > > >somewhat. As long as you aren't overloading the pilot with > > > >information (and you have to really LOOK to get this bit) having more > > > >information available is often nice. > > > > > > Is this the one and only device that will provide adequate > > > fuel flow to your engine? What do you do when THAT device quits? > > > Or a wire comes unhooked? And, suppose you DID see that a fuse > > > is blown, what is the likelihood that the next fuse you put in > > > won't blow too? > > > > Nope, there are two fuel pumps. Actually, both are electric, so you just > gave me another reason to justify this. Since I only actually require one, > fuel pressure alone may not (will not) be sufficient to tell me a fuse has > blown and thus one of the pumps is offline. > > > > > >In point of fact I don't actually want them but when curiosity gets > > > >ahold of me I like to track things down. I don't know what the > > > >weather's like by you, but it's 15 degrees outside here tonight, so > > > >no plane building for me (unheated shop). In the winter, research is > > > >all I can do. > > > > > > Its a good time to tidy up the shop sketches of your wiring > > > into real nice pages for your finished wirebook too . . . > > > > Yeah. If I had any idea what instruments I was planning to use I'd do > that. =) Seriously, Bob, I'm really on the very early side of things here, > but I like to be as COMPLETELY informed as possible before I make a > decision. For me, that means months of discussion and thinking before I made > a decision. I yam what I yam. > > > > Regards, > > Curious Chad > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:15:41 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: AeroElectric-List: LOC? - What's That? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Matt Dralle Dear Listers, The List of Contributors (LOC) is a directory of everyone's name that made a Contribution during this year's List Fund Raiser. Its kind of my way of publicly thanking everyone that so generously made a Contribution to support the continued operation and upgrade of these Email Lists. This year's List of Contributors is just around the corner; I'll be posting the it on or about December 1. Support your Lists today and make sure that your name is on the upcoming LOC! Your friends will be checking, no doubt, to see if YOU make your Contribution because THEY did! :-) Support Contribution Info - http://www.matronics.com/contribution Thank you! Matt Dralle Email List Administrator Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft do not archive ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:41:45 AM PST US From: "Dan Branstrom" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: fuses vs. CBs --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Branstrom" Thanks Phil, In an early onset of Old-timers, I forgot about what a pain in the butt it was to troubleshoot. Also, the grain of wheat bulbs burn out, rendering them useless as blown fuse indicators. Dan Branstrom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Phil Birkelbach" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: fuses vs. CBs > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Phil Birkelbach" > > The company that I work for puts blown fuse indicator type terminal blocks > in the panels that we build as a matter of practice. Personally I hate the > things. They only give you useful information about half the time, and they > make troubleshooting the circuilt a nightmare. They make testing the > circuit with a voltmeter all but impossible because there is ALWAYS voltage > downstream of the fuse, even when the fuse is blown. Another problem is > that the circuit must have load on it for the indicator to work in the first > place. You can't just look at the indicators during pre-flight and get any > useful information because any circuit that is not turned on (lights, > autopilot etc.) will not indicate a blown fuse anyway. > > I personally agree with Bob. If the device is necessary for flight check > it's operation during the preflight (not the status of it's circuit > protection device) and then fly comfortably. > > Godspeed, > > Phil Birkelbach - Houston Texas > RV-7 N727WB (Reserved) - Canopy > http://www.myrv7.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dan Branstrom" > To: > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: fuses vs. CBs > > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Branstrom" > > > > > > LEDs to show which fuse failed. That's what I want. I can do it > > myself with a small board next to the fuse block, I just don't want to. > I'd > > rather have something molded and professionally made. > > > > > Just a warning about putting anything (like an LED) across where the fuse > > goes: I have a friend who put grain of wheat bulbs parallel to the fuse > > connections. The theory was that if a fuse blew, he would know which one > it > > was, because the light would come on. The problem? I had pulled the fuse > > to work on something (which would usually disconnect the item). There was > > enough residual current flowing through the bulb to the circuit to zap me > a > > bit. > > Dan Branstrom > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Chad Robinson" > > To: > > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: fuses vs. CBs > > > > > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chad Robinson > > > > > > > > On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 17:49:46 -0600 "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > > > > > > > > > > > At 01:21 AM 11/12/2003 -0500, you wrote: > > > > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chad Robinson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why would you want to add so much $time$ to a product that > > > > > > has about one chance in 1000 of ever doing something useful? > > > > > > > > > > > > Once you're past the development phase of your design and all > > > > > > construction faults and nuisance trips are fixed, it's quite > > > > > > likely that your airplane will run a lifetime and never open > > > > > > a fuse. > > > > > > > > > >Uhhhh, I don't. I asked for one pre-made. I'm asking for a fuse block > > > > >that has these suckers built in. If you read my original message I > > > > >said I didn't want to be the one doing this. I agree it's a waste of > > > > >time, and fuses with LEDs built in are overpriced and a waste of > > > > >money. =) > > > > > > > > I guess I don't understand . . . a fuse block with breakers built > > > > in? > > > > > > Ummm, maybe we're not on the same page here. I don't want breakers. I > hate > > breakers. I hate breakers almost as much as you do - I say almost because > > I'm not sure anybody really dislikes them THAT much. =) > > > > > > LEDs to show which fuse failed. That's what I want. I can do it myself > > with a small board next to the fuse block, I just don't want to. I'd > rather > > have something molded and professionally made. > > > > > > > >I love playing Devil's Advocate, so I'll bite. How about this for an > > > > >argument? It's nice information to have when your engine starts > > > > >cutting out on your third test flight that you can glance down and > > > > >see your fuel pump (EFI here) has blown a fuse, perhaps because you > > > > >DIDN'T fasten things down as well as you thought and a wire abraded > > > > >and shorted out. You sure as heck aren't going to reach down and try > > > > >to put in a new fuse- it blew for a reason. But you can also avoid > > > > >wasting time on trying an engine restart, which reduces your workload > > > > >somewhat. As long as you aren't overloading the pilot with > > > > >information (and you have to really LOOK to get this bit) having more > > > > >information available is often nice. > > > > > > > > Is this the one and only device that will provide adequate > > > > fuel flow to your engine? What do you do when THAT device quits? > > > > Or a wire comes unhooked? And, suppose you DID see that a fuse > > > > is blown, what is the likelihood that the next fuse you put in > > > > won't blow too? > > > > > > Nope, there are two fuel pumps. Actually, both are electric, so you just > > gave me another reason to justify this. Since I only actually require one, > > fuel pressure alone may not (will not) be sufficient to tell me a fuse has > > blown and thus one of the pumps is offline. > > > > > > > >In point of fact I don't actually want them but when curiosity gets > > > > >ahold of me I like to track things down. I don't know what the > > > > >weather's like by you, but it's 15 degrees outside here tonight, so > > > > >no plane building for me (unheated shop). In the winter, research is > > > > >all I can do. > > > > > > > > Its a good time to tidy up the shop sketches of your wiring > > > > into real nice pages for your finished wirebook too . . . > > > > > > Yeah. If I had any idea what instruments I was planning to use I'd do > > that. =) Seriously, Bob, I'm really on the very early side of things here, > > but I like to be as COMPLETELY informed as possible before I make a > > decision. For me, that means months of discussion and thinking before I > made > > a decision. I yam what I yam. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Curious Chad > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:21:59 AM PST US From: "Bob Gibson" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Cool schematic CAD program --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bob Gibson" FWIW, I also appreciated all the work that Bob Nuckolls put into the drawings for our benefit, but I'm one of these guys who feels morally obligated to "own legal software." I purchased Intellicad 2000 for about $250. and have found it fine. Reads/writes to most drawing formats, and most of our work is "editing" existing electrical drawings anyway. Bob Gibson AA5 - N5826L Clearwater Airpark (CLW) Mobile 727.644.8361 Web www.geocities.com/n5826l ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:18:10 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Future replacement for Rotax --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 07:50 AM 11/18/2003 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: klehman@albedo.net > >Is the John Deere rectifier/regulator any better (or different) than the >Rotax/Ducati? They us it on a large PM alternator that is good for at >least 20 amps. >Ken It could very well be. Do you have a part number and source for this device. I'd consider buying one and testing it. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 01:22:08 PM PST US From: Chad Robinson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: fuses vs. CBs --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chad Robinson On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 11:45:05 -0600 "Phil Birkelbach" wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Phil Birkelbach" > > > The company that I work for puts blown fuse indicator type terminal > blocks in the panels that we build as a matter of practice. > Personally I hate the things. They only give you useful information > about half the time, and they make troubleshooting the circuilt a > nightmare. They make testing the circuit with a voltmeter all but > impossible because there is ALWAYS voltage downstream of the fuse, > even when the fuse is blown. Another problem is that the circuit must > have load on it for the indicator to work in the first place. You > can't just look at the indicators during pre-flight and get any useful > information because any circuit that is not turned on (lights, > autopilot etc.) will not indicate a blown fuse anyway. True enough. I'm not asking for an always-on setup here. Ideally you would run the LEDs only off the downstream side of the fuse, not parallel across them, and tie their current limiting resistors to a common side of a momentary pushbutton tied to ground. That way you could "push to test" just like any other device. It's far better than having the LED active all the time, sourcing voltage to the circuit. I'm not worried about the grain-o'-wheat issue because the current is inherently limited, but it's still a concern. Nonetheless, I maintain that this is useful information, and bemoan the fact that nobody has created a rugged, commercial product. It adds almost no weight, costs almost nothing, and really doesn't have much if any downside if it's done properly. Saying you shouldn't do something just because you don't "really" need to is stupid. Look, I track all the cars around me when I drive, so I know where they are. I still turn my head when I change lanes. It's EXTREMELY unlikely that there will be somebody there when I wasn't planning on it, but it's saved me from exactly 1 accident in the last 10 years and that's good enough for me to do it every darned time. Regards, Chad ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 01:40:53 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: fuses vs. CBs --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 10:41 AM 11/18/2003 -0800, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Branstrom" > > >Thanks Phil, >In an early onset of Old-timers, I forgot about what a pain in the butt it >was to troubleshoot. Also, the grain of wheat bulbs burn out, rendering >them useless as blown fuse indicators. A light bulb for blown fuse indicator will be illuminated only if a fuse blows which means that as indicators, they're not highly stressed and will probably do the job as well as an LED. The major concern is return on investment for the $time$ it takes to install them. The need to troubleshoot is a rare event. Concerns about power availability are even more rare and easy to confirm with or without a blown fuse indicator. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 02:53:08 PM PST US From: "Gilles.Thesee" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Future replacement for Rotax --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gilles.Thesee" > > > >Is the John Deere rectifier/regulator any better (or different) than the > >Rotax/Ducati? They us it on a large PM alternator that is good for at > >least 20 amps. > >Ken > > It could very well be. Do you have a part number and source for > this device. I'd consider buying one and testing it. > > Bob . . . Bob, Out of curiosity, which tests should one perform to evaluate a particular rectifier/regulator ? By the way I understand my friend Jerome machined the necessary parts in order to drive the test Rotax alternator mentioned earlier. Regards, Gilles ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:18:19 PM PST US From: "David Carter" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Future replacement for Rotax --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Carter" Bob, about testing a John Deere PM alternator and regulator. Here's the info I've looked up and shared with others. A look at one of these by you would be a great thing. I've attached the spreadsheet as a pdf file to this e-mail - but think attachments get stripped off. So, will copy and paste here: Output Alternator Regulator.......Weight....Remarks: Amps....... P/N.................P/N...............LBS 20..........AM877557.... AM101406..........4 35......... AM877957.....AM101406......... 4? ....... Same alternator with internal changes, uses same regulator 55......... AL81436........ AL65077..........................Regulator is a flat pack on back of alternator body; ............................................................................ ........Typically used on 6400L and 6500L Tractor for running with lights at night 85......... AL81437.........AL65077..........................Regulator-Has Overvoltage protection (same P/N as 55amp) 85......... AL78690.............?....................................Listed for 6400 series tractor, NO overvoltage protection John Deere PM alternator info - researched at Deere dealer by David Carter I'd like to use the 35 amp if can keep loads down enough for IFR & night Otherwise, I'll probably use the 85 amp - I want a PM alternator. (RV-6 with Mazda rotary engine) David Carter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gilles.Thesee" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Future replacement for Rotax > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gilles.Thesee" > > > >Is the John Deere rectifier/regulator any better (or different) than the > > >Rotax/Ducati? They us it on a large PM alternator that is good for at > > >least 20 amps. > > >Ken > > > > It could very well be. Do you have a part number and source for > > this device. I'd consider buying one and testing it. <<<<<< > > > Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:29:04 PM PST US From: Dave Morris Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Future replacement for Rotax --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dave Morris Is this the one you're talking about? http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/corvair/dynamo.html Dave Morris At 03:17 PM 11/18/2003 -0600, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > >At 07:50 AM 11/18/2003 -0500, you wrote: > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: klehman@albedo.net > > > >Is the John Deere rectifier/regulator any better (or different) than the > >Rotax/Ducati? They us it on a large PM alternator that is good for at > >least 20 amps. > >Ken > > It could very well be. Do you have a part number and source for > this device. I'd consider buying one and testing it. > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 07:35:43 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Future replacement for Rotax --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 09:17 PM 11/18/2003 -0600, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Carter" > > >Bob, about testing a John Deere PM alternator and regulator. Here's the >info I've looked up and shared with others. A look at one of these by you >would be a great thing. I've attached the spreadsheet as a pdf file to >this e-mail - but think attachments get stripped off. So, will copy and >paste here: The paste-up got scrambled quite a bit. Would you end the attachment to be directly at bob.nuckolls@cox.net Thanks! > I'd like to use the 35 amp if can keep loads down enough for IFR & night > Otherwise, I'll probably use the 85 amp - I want a PM alternator. (RV-6 >with Mazda rotary engine) The largest IFR load I've run on an SE aircraft to date is 27A so it's conceivable that you could get by with a 35A alternator. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 07:44:15 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Future replacement for Rotax --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 11:52 PM 11/18/2003 +0100, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gilles.Thesee" > > > > > > > > >Is the John Deere rectifier/regulator any better (or different) than the > > >Rotax/Ducati? They us it on a large PM alternator that is good for at > > >least 20 amps. > > >Ken > > > > It could very well be. Do you have a part number and source for > > this device. I'd consider buying one and testing it. > > > > Bob . . . > >Bob, > >Out of curiosity, which tests should one perform to evaluate a particular >rectifier/regulator ? I usually try to deduce some sense of thermal impedance between internal semi-conductors and the case. This isn't always possible but it can sometimes be done with fair accuracy. Then I see what the case temperature does under various loads and relate that back to junction temperatures of power semiconductors within. This helps us judge how well the designers did their homework and whether or not there's any head-room in the design. There is NO headroom for cooling in the Ducati regulator used on the Rotax. Mounting this regulator with a blast-tube of cooling air is a good thing to do. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 08:09:00 PM PST US From: "David Carter" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Future replacement for Rotax --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Carter" Bob, a question raised by your "various loads" phrase in the quoted e-mail below: I've heard that the PM alternator puts out max current for whatever rpm it is turning, regardless of load, and that the regulator simply heat sinks all the current not being used usefully. So, if I was running at cruise rpm with a particular pulley and the PM alternator was turning x rpm and putting out y amps, and if: 1) I was running minimum day, VFR electrical load, then the difference (excess) would generate heat in the regulator and have to be "soaked" out to someplace; and if: 2) I was running night IMC loads, then there would be LESS current for the regulator to turn to heat. I wonder if there is any significance to this phenomenon, i.e., if the use of a PM alternator could be said to be "less fuel efficient" because it was robbing the engine of all the hp it could possibly use up generating "max current" - all the time. - Maybe we'd have a lower load on the engine (via alternator belt) using a std alternator where current output was controlled by field magic. David Carter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Future replacement for Rotax > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > At 11:52 PM 11/18/2003 +0100, you wrote: > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gilles.Thesee" > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Is the John Deere rectifier/regulator any better (or different) than the > > > >Rotax/Ducati? They us it on a large PM alternator that is good for at > > > >least 20 amps. > > > >Ken > > > > > > It could very well be. Do you have a part number and source for > > > this device. I'd consider buying one and testing it. > > > > > > Bob . . . > > > >Bob, > > > >Out of curiosity, which tests should one perform to evaluate a particular > >rectifier/regulator ? > > I usually try to deduce some sense of thermal impedance > between internal semi-conductors and the case. This isn't > always possible but it can sometimes be done with fair > accuracy. Then I see what the case temperature does under > various loads and relate that back to junction temperatures > of power semiconductors within. This helps us judge how well > the designers did their homework and whether or not there's > any head-room in the design. There is NO headroom for cooling > in the Ducati regulator used on the Rotax. Mounting this regulator > with a blast-tube of cooling air is a good thing to do. > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 10:45:15 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Cool schematic CAD program From: j1j2h3@juno.com --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: j1j2h3@juno.com For a list and reviews of various free CAD programs, see http://www.freecad.com/dcd/CAD_Programs___General_Purpose/index-3.htm Jim Hasper - RV-7 just starting empennage (setting up shop in Franklin, Tennessee) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: F1Rocket@comcast.net (snip) >Just this past week, I downloaded TurboCAD LE, which is free. ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 11:31:26 PM PST US From: "Werner Schneider" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Rgulator and heat --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Werner Schneider" > > I usually try to deduce some sense of thermal impedance > between internal semi-conductors and the case. > any head-room in the design. There is NO headroom for cooling > in the Ducati regulator used on the Rotax. Mounting this regulator > with a blast-tube of cooling air is a good thing to do. Hello Bob, this brings me to a point, I have mounted my LR-3 on the left hand side of the foot room, about 1.5 ft from the floor, but my heating is blowing partly on to the regulator (and believe me we need this heating here in Switzerland), reading your posting would you think it would be a wise idea to add a heat deflector to protect the regulator? Standard load VFR day is around 12-17 A. Thanks for the advice Werner