Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:14 AM - COM antenna feedback (Neville Kilford)
2. 06:18 AM - Re: Best CAD for printing (Antonio Augusto Todo Bom Neto)
3. 06:54 AM - Aeroflash wiring (Darwin N. Barrie)
4. 06:57 AM - Pitch Trim Help (BAKEROCB@aol.com)
5. 08:56 AM - Re: Aeroflash wiring (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 12:18 PM - Please Support Your Email Lists... (Matt Dralle)
7. 01:18 PM - Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 59 Msgs - 11/25/03 (Glen Matejcek)
8. 02:10 PM - Re: COM antenna feedback (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 04:30 PM - Firewall Junction Box (Jeffrey Steenson)
10. 05:26 PM - Re: COM antenna feedback (Franz Fux)
11. 07:23 PM - Re: Aeroflash wiring (Darwin N. Barrie)
12. 08:14 PM - Pitch Trim Help (BAKEROCB@aol.com)
13. 09:36 PM - Re: Firewall Junction Box (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
14. 09:39 PM - Re: COM antenna feedback (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
Message 1
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| Subject: | COM antenna feedback |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Neville Kilford" <nkilford@etravel.org>
Just wanted to let you guys know about my COM antenna. It's a straight
(read: cheap - $17.85) stainless rod antenna from Aircraft Spruce with a
six-spoke groundplane made from 2.5" wide strips of .020" aluminium. It's
all mounted vertically upside-down inside the Jodel's wood fuselage.
Connections to the rod and groundplane are made with PIDG ring terminals.
Anyway, to cut a long story short, I tried it today for the first time by
connecting the coax to an Icom hand-held radio, and it worked a treat! Radio
signals were clear as a bell, and I could hear stations from a great
distance. All this was on the ground in the hangar, so I'm thinking the
in-air performance will be even better.
So... thanks for the advice, Bob -- looks as though it's going to work a
treat.
Nev
--
Jodel D-150 in progress
UK
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Best CAD for printing |
Organization: LAX Eletr\303\264nica e teleco...
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Antonio Augusto Todo Bom Neto <antonio@projetos.etc.br>
Just for notes:
To an EDA (Eletronic Design Automation) I use gEDA professionally in
my office. I believe that is great for Electric and Electronic design.
Is GPL ans is expanding to fast.
Now it runs over Linux and Windows too (using MinGW)
Regards,
Antonio Augusto Todo Bom Neto
LAX Eletronica e Telecomunica=E7=F5es Ltda.
Digital Signature:
Please, look for my public key at:
http://www.keyserver.net
to verify this enclosed signature.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Aeroflash wiring |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Darwin N. Barrie" <ktlkrn@cox.net>
I have installed Aeroflash power supplies in my RV7. One in the tail and one in
each wing. Is there any need to run a ground forward to the firewall ground or
is a local ground sufficient?
Darwin N. Barrie
Chandler AZ
Message 4
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BAKEROCB@aol.com
AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: Dave Morris
<dave@davemorris.com>
<< Have you tried the Strong pitch trim servo?
http://www.strongpitchtrim.com/ I believe it is rated at 40 lbs.
Wait a minute... if you're putting 80 to 100 lbs of force on that thing,
how are you planning to override it? And what kind of plane requires 80 to
100 lbs of force to operate the elevators anyway? Dave Morris >>
11/28/2003
Hello Dave, I really appreciate your input -- you raise a very good question.
I think that there are two things wrong with my spring bias pitch trim
design. One is very poor leverage, the other is use of tension rather than
compression springs.
Right now I feel like the Wright brothers who suffered years of failure
before they successfully flew, but with the help of others I hope to overcome.
In
the meantime let me kick the can down the road a bit.
1) I believe that the fundamental precept of a spring bias pitch trim system
is that one should be able to control the aircraft with reasonable stick
pressures regardless of what the trim system does or does not do. Mine was
designed and ground tested to accomplish this. In flight I had insufficient trim
force, particularly nose down.
2) Using compression springs rather than tension springs is a superior
approach, but I am not exactly sure of all the reasons thereof. I suspect that
one
of the reasons is that in the neutral state the compression springs do not have
to be compressed nearly to the extent that the tension springs have to be
stretched in their neutral state.
3) It is much easier to use tension springs than compression springs.
Compression springs would normally encircle the push rod with some sort of
electrically powered screw driven yoke in the center between the two springs. Collars
are pinned or clamped to the push rod at the outer extremities of the two
compression springs. But the push rod slides back and forth through the springs
whenever the stick is moved so clearance and friction issues need to be considered
and solved. This is fairly complex construction, particularly if you go
through several trial and error efforts to come up with the right springs.
4) For a tension spring system one can just use worm gear hose clamps to hold
some small metal corner brackets to the push tube where ever desired and
fasten the tension spring ends to the brackets and the center movement lever with
split rings. This is a much simpler and more easily modified construction,
but as I have learned the tension spring and lever system can be a real gotcha.
5) I think the forces involved and the freedom of movement required are very
deceptive. Try a little experiment: Go to some place in the elevator push rod
run, forward of any idler if the system has one, and grab that place with your
hand with the intention of not letting the push rod move fore or aft. Then
have someone go to the trailing edge of the elevator and attempt to move it up
and down. I think you will be surprised at how much leverage the person at the
edge of the elevator has and how easily he can overpower the person attempting
to prevent the push rod movement. Similarily if the person at the edge of the
elevator goes to the cockpit and moves the control stick fore and aft at the
grip he will also easily overpower the person attempting to prevent push rod
movement at the rod itself.
6) As for freedom of movement, now envision that little MAC servo with 1.2
inches of movement maximum. Maybe the total fore and aft elevator push rod
movement is on the order of only two or three inches, but A) the tension springs
must be long enough so that the push rod can be moved by the control stick from
one extreme to the other regardless of trim position, and B) the screw drive
must be strong enough to overcome the adverse leverage created by the need to
gain enough movement to accomplish the nose up or nose down trim force needed
in spite of the forces on the elevator.
7) I think that a spring bias pitch trim system, either electrically or
mechanically positioned, properly designed with compression springs, is superior
to
a trim tab system. Just examine the pitch trim systems on such modern
airplanes as the Diamond DA20-C1 and Cirrus. Also note how huge the compression
springs are.
8) I will concede that there is one significant drawback: If the push rod
becomes disconnected from the elevator horn there is no pitch control available
other than engine power modulation. In the case of a completely independent
elevator trim tab system, either electrically or mechanicall operated, one still
has some degree of pitch control. But like Bob Nuckolls points out from time
to time, we don't really provide spare wings and propellers just in case the
ones we primarily use may fail.
9) I guess the things that dismay and stymie me are: A) That throwing
together an electrically driven pitch trim system is not all that simple, intuitive,
and straight forward, and B) That our community doesn't already have several
articles or plans floating around on how to build such systems. Have we let the
type certificated crowd get ahead of us on this feature? Have I been asleep
at the switch?
'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - 11/17/03
PS: Yes, I have just become aware of the Strong trim system and examined my
elevator control system with a view to incorporating that trim system. So far I
see no feasible incorporation method.
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Aeroflash wiring |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 07:53 AM 11/29/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Darwin N. Barrie" <ktlkrn@cox.net>
>
>I have installed Aeroflash power supplies in my RV7. One in the tail and
>one in each wing. Is there any need to run a ground forward to the
>firewall ground or is a local ground sufficient?
Local ground is fine.
Bob . . .
Message 6
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| Subject: | Please Support Your Email Lists... |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
Dear Listers,
There's only about a day and a half left until the official end of the
Email List Fund Raiser! You can still get your name on the List of
Contributors by making your Contribution today or tomorrow. I will be
posting the official List of Contributors on Tuesday or Wednesday.
Its your Contribution that makes these Lists available. Your $20 or $30
pays the bills that keeps the Internet Connection turned on and the servers
upgraded to the latest and fastest hardware.
Please support your lists by making a quick Contribution today. Using the
SSL secure online Contribution form, its fast, easy and safe...
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Thank you to everyone that has already made a Contribution. Be looking for
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Best regards,
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Email List Admin
Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
do not archive
Message 7
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| Subject: | RE: AeroElectric-List Digest: 59 Msgs - 11/25/03 |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Glen Matejcek" <aerobubba@earthlink.net>
Or would you rather Mai Bock?
Time: 07:40:09 AM PST US
From: "Werner Schneider" <wernerschneider@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Magneto Replacements
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Werner Schneider"
<wernerschneider@compuserve.com>
Maybach =(;o)
do not archive
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: COM antenna feedback |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 12:16 PM 11/29/2003 +0000, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Neville Kilford"
><nkilford@etravel.org>
>
>Just wanted to let you guys know about my COM antenna. It's a straight
>(read: cheap - $17.85) stainless rod antenna from Aircraft Spruce with a
>six-spoke groundplane made from 2.5" wide strips of .020" aluminium. It's
>all mounted vertically upside-down inside the Jodel's wood fuselage.
>Connections to the rod and groundplane are made with PIDG ring terminals.
>
>Anyway, to cut a long story short, I tried it today for the first time by
>connecting the coax to an Icom hand-held radio, and it worked a treat! Radio
>signals were clear as a bell, and I could hear stations from a great
>distance. All this was on the ground in the hangar, so I'm thinking the
>in-air performance will be even better.
>
>So... thanks for the advice, Bob -- looks as though it's going to work a
>treat.
It's neat that the laws of physics cannot be re-written
nor ignored by anyone. Folks have been using this simple
antenna design to good advantage for nearly 100 years.
Bob . . .
Message 9
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| Subject: | Firewall Junction Box |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jeffrey Steenson" <jsteenson1@comcast.net>
On the Murphy Elite I am building I have brought all my wires through one
hole in the firewall, including the bundle from the E.I.S. engine monitor.
My question is:
What options should I be looking at to gather together neatly all the
splices that must be mae to EGT and CHT probes? I was thinking of a simple
aluminum cover over all of this. But are there boxes available for this
purpose, without heading into the expensive certified world?
Thanks in advance for your advice!
Jeffrey Steenson
ABQ, NM
Message 10
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| Subject: | COM antenna feedback |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Franz Fux" <franz@lastfrontierheli.com>
Would this system also work in a RV7, say mounting the antenna in the back
of the luggage compartment one way or another, thanks,
Franz
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: COM antenna feedback
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 12:16 PM 11/29/2003 +0000, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Neville Kilford"
><nkilford@etravel.org>
>
>Just wanted to let you guys know about my COM antenna. It's a straight
>(read: cheap - $17.85) stainless rod antenna from Aircraft Spruce with a
>six-spoke groundplane made from 2.5" wide strips of .020" aluminium. It's
>all mounted vertically upside-down inside the Jodel's wood fuselage.
>Connections to the rod and groundplane are made with PIDG ring terminals.
>
>Anyway, to cut a long story short, I tried it today for the first time by
>connecting the coax to an Icom hand-held radio, and it worked a treat!
Radio
>signals were clear as a bell, and I could hear stations from a great
>distance. All this was on the ground in the hangar, so I'm thinking the
>in-air performance will be even better.
>
>So... thanks for the advice, Bob -- looks as though it's going to work a
>treat.
It's neat that the laws of physics cannot be re-written
nor ignored by anyone. Folks have been using this simple
antenna design to good advantage for nearly 100 years.
Bob . . .
---
Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
---
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Aeroflash wiring |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Darwin N. Barrie" <ktlkrn@cox.net>
Thanks Bob!!
Darwin
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Aeroflash wiring
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
> At 07:53 AM 11/29/2003 -0700, you wrote:
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Darwin N. Barrie"
<ktlkrn@cox.net>
> >
> >I have installed Aeroflash power supplies in my RV7. One in the tail and
> >one in each wing. Is there any need to run a ground forward to the
> >firewall ground or is a local ground sufficient?
>
> Local ground is fine.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
Message 12
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BAKEROCB@aol.com
AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: Dave Morris
<dave@davemorris.com>
<< Have you tried the Strong pitch trim servo?
http://www.strongpitchtrim.com/ I believe it is rated at 40 lbs.
Wait a minute... if you're putting 80 to 100 lbs of force on that thing,
how are you planning to override it? And what kind of plane requires 80 to
100 lbs of force to operate the elevators anyway? Dave Morris >>
11/28/2003
Hello Dave, I really appreciate your input -- you raise a very good question.
I think that there are two things wrong with my spring bias pitch trim
design. One is very poor leverage, the other is use of tension rather than
compression springs.
Right now I feel like the Wright brothers who suffered years of failure
before they successfully flew, but with the help of others I hope to overcome.
In
the meantime let me kick the can down the road a bit.
1) I believe that the fundamental precept of a spring bias pitch trim system
is that one should be able to control the aircraft with reasonable stick
pressures regardless of what the trim system does or does not do. Mine was
designed and ground tested to accomplish this. In flight I had insufficient trim
force, particularly nose down.
2) Using compression springs rather than tension springs is a superior
approach, but I am not exactly sure of all the reasons thereof. I suspect that
one
of the reasons is that in the neutral state the compression springs do not have
to be compressed nearly to the extent that the tension springs have to be
stretched in their neutral state.
3) It is much easier to use tension springs than compression springs.
Compression springs would normally encircle the push rod with some sort of
electrically powered screw driven yoke in the center between the two springs. Collars
are pinned or clamped to the push rod at the outer extremities of the two
compression springs. But the push rod slides back and forth through the springs
whenever the stick is moved so clearance and friction issues need to be considered
and solved. This is fairly complex construction, particularly if you go
through several trial and error efforts to come up with the right springs.
4) For a tension spring system one can just use worm gear hose clamps to hold
some small metal corner brackets to the push tube where ever desired and
fasten the tension spring ends to the brackets and the center movement lever with
split rings. This is a much simpler and more easily modified construction,
but as I have learned the tension spring and lever system can be a real gotcha.
5) I think the forces involved and the freedom of movement required are very
deceptive. Try a little experiment: Go to some place in the elevator push rod
run, forward of any idler if the system has one, and grab that place with your
hand with the intention of not letting the push rod move fore or aft. Then
have someone go to the trailing edge of the elevator and attempt to move it up
and down. I think you will be surprised at how much leverage the person at the
edge of the elevator has and how easily he can overpower the person attempting
to prevent the push rod movement. Similarily if the person at the edge of the
elevator goes to the cockpit and moves the control stick fore and aft at the
grip he will also easily overpower the person attempting to prevent push rod
movement at the rod itself.
6) As for freedom of movement, now envision that little MAC servo with 1.2
inches of movement maximum. Maybe the total fore and aft elevator push rod
movement is on the order of only two or three inches, but A) the tension springs
must be long enough so that the push rod can be moved by the control stick from
one extreme to the other regardless of trim position, and B) the screw drive
must be strong enough to overcome the adverse leverage created by the need to
gain enough movement to accomplish the nose up or nose down trim force needed
in spite of the forces on the elevator.
7) I think that a spring bias pitch trim system, either electrically or
mechanically positioned, properly designed with compression springs, is superior
to
a trim tab system. Just examine the pitch trim systems on such modern
airplanes as the Diamond DA20-C1 and Cirrus. Also note how huge the compression
springs are.
8) I will concede that there is one significant drawback: If the push rod
becomes disconnected from the elevator horn there is no pitch control available
other than engine power modulation. In the case of a completely independent
elevator trim tab system, either electrically or mechanicall operated, one still
has some degree of pitch control. But like Bob Nuckolls points out from time
to time, we don't really provide spare wings and propellers just in case the
ones we primarily use may fail.
9) I guess the things that dismay and stymie me are: A) That throwing
together an electrically driven pitch trim system is not all that simple, intuitive,
and straight forward, and B) That our community doesn't already have several
articles or plans floating around on how to build such systems. Have we let the
type certificated crowd get ahead of us on this feature? Have I been asleep
at the switch?
'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - 11/17/03
PS: Yes, I have just become aware of the Strong trim system and examined my
elevator control system with a view to incorporating that trim system. So far I
see no feasible incorporation method.
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Firewall Junction Box |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 05:29 PM 11/29/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jeffrey Steenson"
><jsteenson1@comcast.net>
>
>On the Murphy Elite I am building I have brought all my wires through one
>hole in the firewall, including the bundle from the E.I.S. engine monitor.
>My question is:
>
>What options should I be looking at to gather together neatly all the
>splices that must be mae to EGT and CHT probes? I was thinking of a simple
>aluminum cover over all of this. But are there boxes available for this
>purpose, without heading into the expensive certified world?
See http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Firewall_Penetration/firewall.html
Most firewall penetrations carry a variety of systems wiring
and fluid lines . . . I don't recall ever seeing a junction
box on either side . . . but after you've brought the
wires through a fire proof fitting, you could do about
anything else you wished. I'd suggest keeping the number
of breaks in any wiring to the lowest practical minimum.
Bob . . .
Message 14
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| Subject: | COM antenna feedback |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 05:25 PM 11/29/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Franz Fux"
><franz@lastfrontierheli.com>
>
>Would this system also work in a RV7, say mounting the antenna in the back
>of the luggage compartment one way or another, thanks,
>Franz
On a metal airplane, you don't need the radials . . . just
poke the antenna through the skin and ground the feedline shield
to the skin at the base of the antenna.
Bob . . .
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