Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:09 AM - Re: COM antenna feedback (Charlie & Tupper England)
2. 06:32 AM - Re: Firewall Junction Box (Gary K)
3. 07:19 AM - Re: COM antenna feedback (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 09:55 AM - Whelen Strobe Wiring (rsmith@frontier.net)
5. 10:58 AM - Re: COM antenna feedback (Dave Morris)
6. 11:51 AM - Re: Attach bolts for SD20 (Ralph E. Capen)
7. 12:39 PM - Last "Official" Day To Make Your List Contribution!! (Matt Dralle)
8. 01:08 PM - Compass Advice (Troy Scott)
9. 01:40 PM - Re: Compass Advice (BobsV35B@aol.com)
10. 02:14 PM - Re: Compass Advice ()
11. 02:23 PM - AEC9005-101LVWarn Auxiliary Battery Manager Wiring. (Tom Parks)
12. 02:36 PM - Re: Compass Advice (Dan O'Brien)
13. 02:42 PM - Re: Compass Advice (Terry Watson)
14. 02:52 PM - Battery tester (Terry Watson)
15. 02:54 PM - Avionics question - NAV to AP (James Redmon)
16. 03:01 PM - Re: Compass Advice (Dave Morris)
17. 03:03 PM - Re: Compass Advice (BobsV35B@aol.com)
18. 03:26 PM - Re: Compass Advice (Gilles.Thesee)
19. 05:24 PM - Re: Compass Advice (Eric M. Jones)
20. 05:31 PM - Re: Compass Advice ()
21. 05:37 PM - Re: Compass Advice (Eric M. Jones)
22. 06:43 PM - Re: Compass Advice (Jerzy Krasinski)
23. 07:09 PM - Turn and Bank - RC Allen vs Electrical Gyro Corp? (Kevin Horton)
24. 07:31 PM - Re: Re: Compass Advice (BobsV35B@aol.com)
25. 08:53 PM - trigger PTT. (thomas a. sargent)
26. 09:05 PM - Re: Re: Compass Advice (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
27. 10:03 PM - Electric Carb heat? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
28. 10:54 PM - Re: Re: Compass Advice (Dave Morris)
29. 11:30 PM - Re: Electric Carb heat? (Jerzy Krasinski)
30. 11:39 PM - Re: Electric Carb heat? (Dave & Wendy Grosvenor)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: COM antenna feedback |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie & Tupper England <cengland@netdoor.com>
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
>At 05:25 PM 11/29/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>
>
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Franz Fux"
>><franz@lastfrontierheli.com>
>>
>>Would this system also work in a RV7, say mounting the antenna in the back
>>of the luggage compartment one way or another, thanks,
>>Franz
>>
>>
>
> On a metal airplane, you don't need the radials . . . just
> poke the antenna through the skin and ground the feedline shield
> to the skin at the base of the antenna.
>
> Bob . . .
>
If I remember the original post correctly, the antenna was inside the
fuselage. Just to be completely clear, it should be noted that the
interior installation won't work in a metal skinned a/c.
Charlie
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Firewall Junction Box |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gary K" <flyink@efortress.com>
> What options should I be looking at to gather together neatly all the
> splices that must be mae to EGT and CHT probes? I was thinking of a
simple
> aluminum cover over all of this. But are there boxes available for this
> purpose, without heading into the expensive certified world?
I have an "instrumentation" box on my firewall for MAP sensor, thermocouple
amplifiers and tach circuitry. I have a hole thru the firewall for all of
the wires, and I drilled a big hole in the back of an aluminum box and
screwed the box to the front of the firewall. I can remove the cover for
easy access to everything inside. I got the box from www.alliedelec.com.
Gary Krysztopik
Pelican PL w/Stratus EA-81 subaru
6.5 hours
Newport, R.I.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: COM antenna feedback |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 08:08 AM 11/30/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie & Tupper England
><cengland@netdoor.com>
>
>Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
> <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
> >
> >At 05:25 PM 11/29/2003 -0800, you wrote:
> >
> >
> >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Franz Fux"
> >><franz@lastfrontierheli.com>
> >>
> >>Would this system also work in a RV7, say mounting the antenna in the back
> >>of the luggage compartment one way or another, thanks,
> >>Franz
> >>
> >>
> >
> > On a metal airplane, you don't need the radials . . . just
> > poke the antenna through the skin and ground the feedline shield
> > to the skin at the base of the antenna.
> >
> > Bob . . .
> >
>
>If I remember the original post correctly, the antenna was inside the
>fuselage. Just to be completely clear, it should be noted that the
>interior installation won't work in a metal skinned a/c.
Correct. That's why I said "poke the antenna through the
skin" . . . and use the airplane itself as a ground plane.
The single spike antenna with radials can be used on
any RF transparent airplane to mount the antenna totally
inside . . . or to make a poor-conductor structure (like
carbon fiber) into a superior ground plane for mounting
an antenna on an exterior surface.
Bob . . .
Message 4
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| Subject: | Whelen Strobe Wiring |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: rsmith@frontier.net
I recently purchase a "new" old stock Whelen A500A tail strobe/position light
with a manuf. date of 5/90. Unlike my wing tip strobes which have a red (+),
black (-), and white (trigger) wire, the wiring to the strobe portion has
white, white with yellow stripe and white with blue stripe wires. The two wires
to the position light are white and white with yellow stripe, but of course the
polarity doesn't matter there. Can anyone tell me which wire is which? I
emailed Whelen last week with the same question but have not heard back from
them.
Thanks,
Rod Smith
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: COM antenna feedback |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dave Morris <dave@davemorris.com>
For anyone with a non-metal skin aircraft having trouble with the ground
plane and/or wanting to try a different type of antenna that has a small
amount of gain over the typical whip antenna, I've designed a loop antenna
for composite aircraft that would also work on an aircraft with wood
skin. The information is at
http://www.davemorris.com/dave/MorrisDFLoop.html and the antenna can be
squared off if your tail cone is more square than round.
Dave Morris
At 09:18 AM 11/30/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
><bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
>At 08:08 AM 11/30/2003 -0600, you wrote:
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie & Tupper England
> ><cengland@netdoor.com>
> >
> >Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> >
> > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
> > <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
> > >
> > >At 05:25 PM 11/29/2003 -0800, you wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Franz Fux"
> > >><franz@lastfrontierheli.com>
> > >>
> > >>Would this system also work in a RV7, say mounting the antenna in the
> back
> > >>of the luggage compartment one way or another, thanks,
> > >>Franz
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > > On a metal airplane, you don't need the radials . . . just
> > > poke the antenna through the skin and ground the feedline shield
> > > to the skin at the base of the antenna.
> > >
> > > Bob . . .
> > >
> >
> >If I remember the original post correctly, the antenna was inside the
> >fuselage. Just to be completely clear, it should be noted that the
> >interior installation won't work in a metal skinned a/c.
>
> Correct. That's why I said "poke the antenna through the
> skin" . . . and use the airplane itself as a ground plane.
> The single spike antenna with radials can be used on
> any RF transparent airplane to mount the antenna totally
> inside . . . or to make a poor-conductor structure (like
> carbon fiber) into a superior ground plane for mounting
> an antenna on an exterior surface.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Attach bolts for SD20 |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen@earthlink.net>
Thanks to all that responded....the studs/washers/lockwashers/nuts were
there all along...for both the SD20 and my MT/Jihostroj prop gevernor.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Last "Official" Day To Make Your List Contribution!! |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
Dear Listers,
Well, its November 30th and that means three things...
1) Today I am officially 40 years old (sympathy is appreciated)!
2) It marks that last "official" day of the List Fund Raiser!
3) Its the last day I will be bugging everyone for a whole year! :-)
If you use the Lists and enjoy the content and the no-advertising, no-spam,
and no-censorship way in which they're run, please make a Contribution
today to support their continued operation and upkeep. Your $20 or $30
goes a long way to further the List operation and keep the bills paid.
A Lister wrote a funny message in the comments field of his Contribution
today that I thought summed up the whole situation:
"Worth every penny and I'm a tightwad!"
Thank you to everyone that has made a Contribution so far this year! It is
greatly appreciated.
Contributions: http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Email List Admin.
Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
do not archive
Message 8
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identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message
has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or block
similar future email. If you have any questions, see
the administrator of that system for details.
Content preview: Gentlemen, I'm in the process of laying out the
instrument panel for my Glasair. I'm considering using a group of four
2.25" instruments to form a "backup group" for the Blue Mountain
Avionics EFIS1 I'm installing. The reasoning is that, while I really
like the electronic systems like the Dynon EFIS D10, it seems prudent
to backup a solid-state, software based system using something with
different failure modes. The four instruments would be: 1. T&B
(electric) 2. Airspeed (mechanical) 3. Altimeter (mechanical) 4.
Vertical Card Compass (not remote) [...]
Content analysis details: (4.5 points, 5.0 required)
pts rule name description
---- ---------------------- --------------------------------------------------
-0.0 BAYES_44 BODY: Bayesian spam probability is 44 to 50%
[score: 0.4988]
2.2 DATE_IN_FUTURE_12_24 Date: is 12 to 24 hours after Received: date
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Troy Scott" <tscott1217@bellsouth.net>
Gentlemen,
I'm in the process of laying out the instrument panel for my Glasair. I'm considering
using a group of four 2.25" instruments to form a "backup group" for
the Blue Mountain Avionics EFIS1 I'm installing. The reasoning is that, while
I really like the electronic systems like the Dynon EFIS D10, it seems prudent
to backup a solid-state, software based system using something with different
failure modes. The four instruments would be:
1. T&B (electric)
2. Airspeed (mechanical)
3. Altimeter (mechanical)
4. Vertical Card Compass (not remote)
Of course I'd prefer an AH to the T&B, but the non-software based AHs are all ridiculously
expensive. I'd like to use the vertical card compass like a DG.
What I'd like to do is install these four in a group near the EFIS1 screen in
order that the transition (in event of EFIS failure) would be a non-event. The
problem is that the grouping that seems best for scan not only puts the group
relatively close to the EFIS1 screen; It also places the electric T&B and the
vertical card compass next to each other. I read a while back about a material
that is sometimes used to "isolate" a compass from local electro-magnetic
fields. Unfortunately, I've lost the reference. Do any of you know:
1. what the material is
2. if it's effective under circumstances like I've described
3. a source?
Also, is there a robust, reasonably priced remote sensor type compass with a 2.25"
readout that would work well in this group?
Regards,
Troy Scott
tscott1217@bellsouth.net
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Compass Advice |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
In a message dated 11/30/03 3:09:29 PM Central Standard Time,
tscott1217@bellsouth.net writes:
The problem is that the grouping that seems best for scan not only puts the
group relatively close to the EFIS1 screen; It also places the electric T&B and
the vertical card compass next to each other. I read a while back about a
material that is sometimes used to "isolate" a compass from local
electro-magnetic fields. Unfortunately, I've lost the reference. Do any of you
know:
Good Afternoon Troy,
May I respectfully suggest that you scratch the thought of having a magnetic
compass in your emergency standby backup panel?
The main thing you need to be able to do is stop any turn that has developed.
Secondarily, you need to do whatever it takes to avoid a rapid change in
altitude.
Your airspeed and altimeter will give you all the information required to
handle any pitch deviation and they require no electrical or pneumatic aid other
than static and pitot pressure.
Once again, the key thing is to be able to recognize and stop any turning
motion that develops.
Either a standard classic T&B or a Turn Coordinator will serve adequately for
that purpose. Either one will be much more reliable and a LOT cheaper than
having a standby Attitude Indicator.
I feel that the most important thing is to be sure you are thinking turn, not
"wings level."
In the worst case scenario wherein the failure of your "glass" was not noted
until after the aircraft has started to diverge from normal flight, it is
likely that your mind will still be assuming things are "normal." I feel it is
a
lot easier to stop the turn by using a T&B and wait for your mind to realize
what has happened than it is to recognize the problem, convince your mind that
the instruments are correct, and then, initiate recovery.
Small point to which I know many will not agree, but my vote is strongly in
favor of a T&B rather than a TC.
Back to the heading information. I feel that it would be best to find
someplace in your airplane where a standard magnetic compass could be mounted such
that it needs little or no compensation. That will be nice to have even when
the "glass " is working perfectly. In that hopefully rare situation where the
"glass" has failed and your are in an emergency mode. The main thing is to get
the turn stopped. After that has been accomplished, and you have persuaded
your mind to believe that the primary rate instruments are correct, it is
relatively easy to glance at the stabilized compass to get correct heading
information. In the event that turns are required, timed turns still work very
well.
Save the money and weight that you would other wise be spending for that
vertical card compass. They rarely work very well even under the best of
conditions.
Sounds to me like you are definitely on the proper trail to excellent
redundancy.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Compass Advice |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <jimk36@comcast.net>
Troy-- FWIW I sure agree with Old Bob. Verticle card compsses are not that
great. And heading info is a third priority. If the airplane is right side
up and level, an occasional glance at the whiskey compass is all you need.
Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: "Troy Scott" <tscott1217@bellsouth.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Compass Advice
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Troy Scott"
<tscott1217@bellsouth.net>
>
> Gentlemen,
> I'm in the process of laying out the instrument panel for my Glasair.
I'm considering using a group of four 2.25" instruments to form a "backup
group" for the Blue Mountain Avionics EFIS1 I'm installing. The reasoning
is that, while I really like the electronic systems like the Dynon EFIS D10,
it seems prudent to backup a solid-state, software based system using
something with different failure modes. The four instruments would be:
> 1. T&B (electric)
> 2. Airspeed (mechanical)
> 3. Altimeter (mechanical)
> 4. Vertical Card Compass (not remote)
>
> Of course I'd prefer an AH to the T&B, but the non-software based AHs are
all ridiculously expensive. I'd like to use the vertical card compass like
a DG. What I'd like to do is install these four in a group near the EFIS1
screen in order that the transition (in event of EFIS failure) would be a
non-event. The problem is that the grouping that seems best for scan not
only puts the group relatively close to the EFIS1 screen; It also places the
electric T&B and the vertical card compass next to each other. I read a
while back about a material that is sometimes used to "isolate" a compass
from local electro-magnetic fields. Unfortunately, I've lost the reference.
Do any of you know:
> 1. what the material is
> 2. if it's effective under circumstances like I've described
> 3. a source?
>
> Also, is there a robust, reasonably priced remote sensor type compass with
a 2.25" readout that would work well in this group?
>
> Regards,
> Troy Scott
> tscott1217@bellsouth.net
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | AEC9005-101LVWarn Auxiliary Battery Manager Wiring. |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tom Parks" <flightwork2@msn.com>
Bob!
I've finished installing your LVWABM in my all electric RV-7 per your
installation dwg 9005-701B dated 9 February 2003. Turning the DC Master to
the Bat position shows I have slightly over 12 volts on the voltmeter but
the Lo Volts warning light does not flash. Turning the Aux Bat switch to the
Auto position changes nothing. Turning the Aux Bat switch to the ON position
lights up the Aux Battery On light. I'm not in a position to run the engine
to charge the as yet, as the project is not ready to go to the airport yet.
I'm just finishing up the wiring of the airframe while it's in the garage.
Engine is hung, etc. I have two 18 hr SLA batteries mounted on the firewall
with B&C 60 amp alternator and the generic Ford voltage regulator. Any
suggestions as to what is wrong here.
regards,
Tom Parks
RV-7 N620CF
Groove on the latest from the hot new rock groups! Get downloads, videos,
and more here. http://special.msn.com/entertainment/wiredformusic.armx
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Compass Advice |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan O'Brien" <danobrien@cox.net>
>Save the money and weight that you would other wise be spending for
>that vertical card compass. They rarely work very well even under the
best of conditions.
I have a vertical card compass that I plan to install in my Lancair ES, and
I've also wondered how much magnetic interference I'll face. I was talking
to a Kitfox builder yesterday who is flying off his 40 hours. He has a
vertical card compass mounted on top of the glareshield, not very far from
an electric turn coordinator. He says the compass has works great. What
have others experienced?
Aircraft Spruce sells something called muMetal, which I understand is
supposed to somehow shield the compass from electro-magnetic
interference. You can find it on the same page as the Precision vertical
card compass. I have no idea how well it works, or how to use it for that
matter. Can anyone offer an opinion on this?
Message 13
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" <terry@tcwatson.com>
Troy,
I am doing something very similar in my RV-8A -- BMA EFIS/one plus 2-1/4"
ASI, Alt, VVI, T&B and vertical card compass. I put my hiking compass next
to the EFIS/one screen to see if there was any difference with the screen on
or off. I couldn't see any difference because the right base of the steel
roll bar about 12" or so away was so strongly magnetic that it was magnetic
north to anything within 18 or 24" of it.
I have been waiting since July for a 2-1/4" R C Allen Turn and Bank, ordered
through Chief Aircraft. Chief has no idea when they will get it and R C
Allen doesn't respond to inquiries.
I think the stuff you are looking for is called Mu metal. There should be
something in the aeroelectric list archives. If not, try the RV list
archives. I know it has been discussed.
Just an added note about the altimeter. I bought a 2-1/4" 20,000' single
needle altimeter with Kolsman window from UMA for about $200. Since then I
discovered that sailplane pilots sometimes use a more conventionally
configured multi-needle 2-1/4" altimeter from a company named Winter. The
resolution on a single needle 20,000' small altimeter is better than
nothing, but not by a whole lot. I think the Winter altimeter was pretty
expensive - maybe $600 or so.
I would also be interested in a 2-1/4" compass with a remote sensor. I
think there is something like that available for sailboats.
Terry
-> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Troy Scott"
<tscott1217@bellsouth.net>
Gentlemen,
I'm in the process of laying out the instrument panel for my Glasair. I'm
considering using a group of four 2.25" instruments to form a "backup group"
for the Blue Mountain Avionics EFIS1 I'm installing. The reasoning is that,
while I really like the electronic systems like the Dynon EFIS D10, it seems
prudent to backup a solid-state, software based system using something with
different failure modes. The four instruments would be:
1. T&B (electric)
2. Airspeed (mechanical)
3. Altimeter (mechanical)
4. Vertical Card Compass (not remote)
Of course I'd prefer an AH to the T&B, but the non-software based AHs are
all ridiculously expensive. I'd like to use the vertical card compass like
a DG. What I'd like to do is install these four in a group near the EFIS1
screen in order that the transition (in event of EFIS failure) would be a
non-event. The problem is that the grouping that seems best for scan not
only puts the group relatively close to the EFIS1 screen; It also places the
electric T&B and the vertical card compass next to each other. I read a
while back about a material that is sometimes used to "isolate" a compass
from local electro-magnetic fields. Unfortunately, I've lost the reference.
Do any of you know:
1. what the material is
2. if it's effective under circumstances like I've described
3. a source?
Also, is there a robust, reasonably priced remote sensor type compass with a
2.25" readout that would work well in this group?
Regards,
Troy Scott
tscott1217@bellsouth.net
Message 14
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" <terry@tcwatson.com>
I was at the local Harbor Freight store yesterday and one of the things I
looked at but did not buy was a battery tester. This thing was on sale for
about $19, which I think was half price. It had a couple of jumper-cable
type leads with big alligator grips, a digital readout and a spring loaded
toggle switch labeled "load" that the instructions said to switch on for no
more than 10 seconds.
Might this be the kind of batter tester you have suggested, Bob? Here is a
link to their catalog page:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=90250
I see that it's also available with an analog gauge.
Terry
Message 15
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| Subject: | Avionics question - NAV to AP |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James Redmon" <james@berkut13.com>
I have a seemingly simple question for those who have gone before.
The question background: I currently for standard NAV I have a King KN-53
(NAV+GS radio) and a King KI-204 indicator (VOR/LOC/GS with converter).
I want to drive my NavAid AP-1 autopilot from NAV output of my King
radio/indicator combo. The AP-1 requires Left/Right steering inputs, and
the output from the KN-53 is composite (single wire for all data). Now, the
indicator has a built-in converter that takes the composite signal and turns
it into a L/R steering signal....however, I do not have the pin-outs for the
204 so I don't know if there is an output from it.
The question(s): Is there a L/R steering output from the KI-204 that I can
use? If so, what pins? Or, do I have to buy a KN-72 NAV converter just to
connect the autopilot?
Advice please!
James Redmon
Berkut #013 N97TX
www.berkut13.com
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Compass Advice |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dave Morris <dave@davemorris.com>
A $100 Wal-Mart GPS will tell you if you're turning or not.
Dave Morris
At 04:39 PM 11/30/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
>
>In a message dated 11/30/03 3:09:29 PM Central Standard Time,
>tscott1217@bellsouth.net writes:
>The problem is that the grouping that seems best for scan not only puts the
>group relatively close to the EFIS1 screen; It also places the electric
>T&B and
>the vertical card compass next to each other. I read a while back about a
>material that is sometimes used to "isolate" a compass from local
>electro-magnetic fields. Unfortunately, I've lost the reference. Do any
>of you know:
>Good Afternoon Troy,
>
>May I respectfully suggest that you scratch the thought of having a magnetic
>compass in your emergency standby backup panel?
>
>The main thing you need to be able to do is stop any turn that has developed.
> Secondarily, you need to do whatever it takes to avoid a rapid change in
>altitude.
>
>Your airspeed and altimeter will give you all the information required to
>handle any pitch deviation and they require no electrical or pneumatic aid
>other
>than static and pitot pressure.
>
>Once again, the key thing is to be able to recognize and stop any turning
>motion that develops.
>
>Either a standard classic T&B or a Turn Coordinator will serve adequately for
>that purpose. Either one will be much more reliable and a LOT cheaper than
>having a standby Attitude Indicator.
>
>I feel that the most important thing is to be sure you are thinking turn, not
>"wings level."
>
>In the worst case scenario wherein the failure of your "glass" was not noted
>until after the aircraft has started to diverge from normal flight, it is
>likely that your mind will still be assuming things are "normal." I feel
>it is a
>lot easier to stop the turn by using a T&B and wait for your mind to realize
>what has happened than it is to recognize the problem, convince your mind
>that
>the instruments are correct, and then, initiate recovery.
>
>Small point to which I know many will not agree, but my vote is strongly in
>favor of a T&B rather than a TC.
>
>Back to the heading information. I feel that it would be best to find
>someplace in your airplane where a standard magnetic compass could be
>mounted such
>that it needs little or no compensation. That will be nice to have even when
>the "glass " is working perfectly. In that hopefully rare situation where
>the
>"glass" has failed and your are in an emergency mode. The main thing is to
>get
>the turn stopped. After that has been accomplished, and you have persuaded
>your mind to believe that the primary rate instruments are correct, it is
>relatively easy to glance at the stabilized compass to get correct heading
>information. In the event that turns are required, timed turns still work
>very well.
>
>Save the money and weight that you would other wise be spending for that
>vertical card compass. They rarely work very well even under the best of
>conditions.
>
>Sounds to me like you are definitely on the proper trail to excellent
>redundancy.
>
>Happy Skies,
>
>Old Bob
>AKA
>Bob Siegfried
>Ancient Aviator
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Compass Advice |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
In a message dated 11/30/03 5:02:26 PM Central Standard Time,
dave@davemorris.com writes:
A $100 Wal-Mart GPS will tell you if you're turning or not.
GOOD POINT!!!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Compass Advice |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gilles.Thesee" <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
----- Message d'origine -----
De : <BobsV35B@aol.com>
: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
Envoy : dimanche 30 novembre 2003 22:39
Objet : Re: AeroElectric-List: Compass Advice
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 11/30/03 3:09:29 PM Central Standard Time,
> tscott1217@bellsouth.net writes:
> The problem is that the grouping that seems best for scan not only puts
the
> group relatively close to the EFIS1 screen; It also places the electric
T&B and
> the vertical card compass next to each other. I read a while back about a
> material that is sometimes used to "isolate" a compass from local
> electro-magnetic fields. Unfortunately, I've lost the reference. Do any
of you know:
> Good Afternoon Troy,
Must be "Mu-metal".
Regards,
Gilles
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Compass Advice |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
Remember Mu-Metal BLOCKS magnetic fields. So don't wrap your compass in it.
Use "Google" to search for Mu metal, and failing that buy from these
nutballs--- http://www.cutcat.com/ Lots of sources for the stuff. If you
have an old oscilloscope you want to trash, grab the can that covers the
CRT. It's mu metal.
I always wondered if anyone ever used the magnetic dip for navigation. Seems
obvious.
If a $100 dollar GPS from Wal-Mart can tell you which direction you are
going, then a short stretch of technology will be able to tell you
everything about the attitude, altitude, ground speed, and heading of the
airplane. After all---we know where and at what angles those satellites are.
File the patent, I'll take my standard fee.
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
Phone (508) 764-2072
Email: emjones@charter.net
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Compass Advice |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <racker@rmci.net>
> Save the money and weight that you would other wise be spending for that
> vertical card compass. They rarely work very well even under the best
> of conditions.
Mine works great (as does my hangar mates next door). Responds
instantaneously to turns, cross checks within 2-4 degrees on all gps
compass course headings I have checked to date (without compensation),
reads the correct direction no need to turn the "opposite" way, and
displays a DG-like compass rose giving far better situational awareness.
Trick is to mount it where it will get a little vibration (i.e. not right
in the panel, just like the manufacturer's direction say not to). The
vertical cards are a little "sticky" during slow heading changes, with a
little vibration such as mounted on the glareshield they are constantly
"unstuck" and work great.
Rob Acker (RV-6 flying)
do not archive
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Compass Advice |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
Looks like we won't be needing that panel full of instruments after all.
Just a spare one of these.
See Magellan's
MLR GA24 X http://www.magellangps.com/en/products/product.asp?PRODID=103
Compact and discreet, this "active antenna" houses a complete GPS receiver
providing position, altitude, speed, course, satellite orbit information and
reception signal levels at an update rate of 1 second. It is based on
advanced technology with 12 parallel channels and dual acquisition for an
even shorter time to first fix. Standard NMEA output allows easy integration
into your communication and navigation systems.
Eric
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Compass Advice |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jerzy Krasinski <krasinski@direcway.com>
...............................I read a while back about a
>material that is sometimes used to "isolate" a compass from local
>electro-magnetic fields. Unfortunately, I've lost the reference. Do any
>of you know:
>Good Afternoon Troy,
I doubt if there is a material able to tell a difference between a local and an
external magnetic field. You can shield ALL magnetic field, both external and
those generated in the plane if you use any of high magnetic permeability materials
such as mu metal, permalloy etc., as a screen. Unfortunately, you are
not going to like that "solution". Your compass with the magnetic field of the
Earth blocked will turn around blind pointing some random directions. If you
shield it only partially you will reduce the Earth's field and the local field
by the same ratio, that will keep the compass error constant, but it will make
compass much more sluggish due to the reduction of the Earth's field. So isolation
of a compass is not a practical thing.
You can compensate permanent local magnetic field, including those generated by
permanent magnet like pieces of steel, as well as those generated by cables with
constant direct current, but you do not need anything external for that. You
can use a compensator which is built into any aviation grade compass, and make
the compensation with the engine running and usual electrical devices switched
on.
Unfortunately, the electrical load in the plane is not constant. Sometimes you
have to switch nav lights on, or pitot heat, landing lights etc. That means that
you can make the compensation good for a typical flight configuration only.
It is likely that the compass error might increase when you switch extra load
on.
These types of errors can be substantially reduced if you use two parallel wires
connecting each device, one wire feeding the device from the bus and the other
acting as a return to the common ground bus. These two wires should be as close
as possible to each other, commonly they are twisted together. In such an
arrangement these wires have currents equal but in opposite directions, so the
magnetic fields generated by these wires at a distance much greater than diameter
of the wires cancel each other almost perfectly. Same system of two parallel
wires should be used for connection of the battery, alternator and the
bus. For such an arrangement very little magnetic field is generated even from
high current circuits.
You could reduce the magnetic field generated by the wires further if you wrap
magnetic shield material around the pairs of wires. Unfortunately, wires are long
and shields like that would be heavy and rigid. As you can see magnetic isolation
of wires is not a very practical thing either. For that reason magnetic
shielding of wires is used only in very special applications which require extremely
"quiet" magnetic environment, which is not the case for a regular airplane
compass.
If you wire your plane using twisted pairs of wires, you will have no problems
with your compass.
Jerzy
Message 23
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rv8list@yahoogroups.com
| Subject: | Turn and Bank - RC Allen vs Electrical Gyro Corp? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com>
I need to buy a 3 1/8 inch electric turn and bank for the RV-8 I'm
building. Aircraft Spruce sells two, and I'm wondering whether there
is any reason to pick one over the other, other than the small price
difference.
Does any one have opinions on the performance and reliability of the
RC Allen 56-3B vs the Electric Gyro Corp 1234T100. I'll probably
call a gyro overhaul shop tomorrow to see if they will tell me
anything useful.
I'll fly some IFR, so I want a trust-worthy instrument. I'll also
fly a fair bit of aerobatics, so I want one that is robust and
overhaulable at a reasonable cost.
--
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Compass Advice |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
In a message dated 11/30/03 7:38:13 PM Central Standard Time,
emjones@charter.net writes:
Compact and discreet, this "active antenna" houses a complete GPS receiver
providing position, altitude, speed, course, satellite orbit information and
reception signal levels at an update rate of 1 second.
Good Evening Eric,
Anybody know why it is not available in North America?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Message 25
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "thomas a. sargent" <sarg314@earthlink.net>
Bob:
I have a couple of stick grips which I can carve to hold whatever
PTT switch I want. I'd like a trigger type switch with a weak spring
positioned under my index finger. I could build something out of a
plunger+spring+microswitch, I guess, but are you aware of any off the
shelf trigger style momentary contact switches? I haven't been able to
find any.
Thanks,
--
Tom Sargent
RV-6A
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Compass Advice |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 10:31 PM 11/30/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
>
>In a message dated 11/30/03 7:38:13 PM Central Standard Time,
>emjones@charter.net writes:
>Compact and discreet, this "active antenna" houses a complete GPS receiver
>providing position, altitude, speed, course, satellite orbit information and
>reception signal levels at an update rate of 1 second.
>Good Evening Eric,
>
>Anybody know why it is not available in North America?
No idea . . . but you can buy a GPS310 by Magellan at
some sporting goods stores for as little as $90. You can
get an optional adapter cable that will let you run the
receiver from an external +12V power supply while taking
the NMEA-183 serial data off two other wires. These data
streams are described starting on page 32 of:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Installation_Data/GPS310.pdf
I'll bet the "active antenna + receiver" costs more than
a GPS-310 + adapter cable. Further, the active antenna
can't be removed from the airplane and used independently
on internal batteries and back-lighted display.
I'll suggest the GPS310 is better value.
Bob . . .
Message 27
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| Subject: | Electric Carb heat? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
> I am trying to design an electric full time carb heat system for my
> Bing carb using Nichrome wire. I anticiapte that I would need to heat
> the carb body up about 50F over amibent. I am still experimenting with
> carb temps without heat, but theory claims it is possible to experinece
> up to 80F temp loss due to vaporization of the fuel. I know little to
> nothing about what I need to know, I just have a basic idea. I thought
> to wrap the wire around the bing carb body to keep it warm at all times
> without heating the intake air. How can I figure out: 1. What diameter
> of wire to use, 2. what length of wire to use, 3. how to calculate the
> wire temp given the use of a standard 12V system (13.5?) and, 4. can I
> use some sort of variable input to regulate the heat output so to keep
> the carbs at a constant temp throughout the extremes in OAT?
this has been considered before . . . it was about 10 years ago
that I had some discussions with some builders on Compuserve's
avsig forum about electric carb heat.
Problem is that you've got a LOT of cold air coming into the
carb to run the engine. Let's assume a 100 cu" engine running
5000 rpm. If it's a 4-cycle, it sucks in about 100 cu" of cold
air every two revolutions or 2500 x 100 cu"/minute. Density of
air at sea level is about 1/800th that of water. Water and air
have the same specific heat so you're needing to put the same
temperature rise on 313 cu" of water/minute as 250,000 cu"
of air/minute. To overcome additional cooling due to vaporization
of fuel, I think I've heard a number of 40 degrees F tossed
around. Okay cu" of water weighs .036 lb so 313 cu" weighs
about 11 pounds. 40 degrees F rise on 11 pounds of water
takes 440 BTU of heat/minute. 440 BTU per minute works out to
26400 BTU per hour. 1 watt is 3.4 BTU per hour. So 26,400/3.4
suggests your heater needs to good for about 7700 watts.
If you have a 2 cycle engine, the volume of air doubles
and so does the necessary power.
These numbers seem in line with the kind of heat one might
expect off a heater muff of an 80 hp piston engine . . .
about 7 hair driers worth. Yub, one hair drier at 1000W
is pretty whimpy heat for a cold cabin . . . been there,
tried that. 7,000 watts doesn't seem unreasonable.
That's about 550 amps of your 14 volt system. That's the
sledge hammer approach to carb heat . . . warm ALL the
incoming air such that carb ice is not only unable to
form but can be shed after substantial ice has already
formed. It's worked well on lots of airplanes since
the early 1940's
If one could concentrate the heat at places were ice
collects, there might be a more efficient way to use
less energy . . . but with nothing BETTER to do with
gobs of waste heat going out the exhaust stacks, the
heater muff was hard to beat for economical to operate
and easy to fabricate and maintain.
Eric, Dave, did I do that analysis right? In any case,
I think you're going to find that it takes a whole
lot more electric heat that you have available to do
an adequate job of de-icing a carburetor.
Bob . . .
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Compass Advice |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dave Morris <dave@davemorris.com>
Sorry Eric, no patent opportunity for ya. I've already written the software
to do what you described. The poor man's EFIS is at www.MyGlassCockpit.com.
:)
Dave Morris
At 08:28 PM 11/30/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
>
>If a $100 dollar GPS from Wal-Mart can tell you which direction you are
>going, then a short stretch of technology will be able to tell you
>everything about the attitude, altitude, ground speed, and heading of the
>airplane. After all---we know where and at what angles those satellites are.
>File the patent, I'll take my standard fee.
>
>Regards,
>Eric M. Jones
>www.PerihelionDesign.com
>113 Brentwood Drive
>Southbridge MA 01550-2705
>Phone (508) 764-2072
>Email: emjones@charter.net
>
>
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Electric Carb heat? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jerzy Krasinski <krasinski@direcway.com>
I guess you got it right if you want to heat ALL air coming into the
carburator.
However, one would need much less power heating the carburator rather
than all incoming air, since much smaller amount of air is in contact
with the walls of the carburator. In other words, you have to heat only
that air which is in contact with the walls of the carburator. In most
of car engines heating of the carburator by heat conduction from the
engine block is sufficient to prevent icing.
Unfortunately, most of aviation engines have carburators away from the
engine block and in addition there are these monstrous manifolds there.
Neither of them have heat connections with the engine block. The large
manifold of aviation engine would probably require some heating too.
Jerzy
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
>
>
>
>> I am trying to design an electric full time carb heat system for my
>>Bing carb using Nichrome wire. I anticiapte that I would need to heat
>>the carb body up about 50F over amibent. I am still experimenting with
>>carb temps without heat, but theory claims it is possible to experinece
>>up to 80F temp loss due to vaporization of the fuel. I know little to
>>nothing about what I need to know, I just have a basic idea. I thought
>>to wrap the wire around the bing carb body to keep it warm at all times
>>without heating the intake air. How can I figure out: 1. What diameter
>>of wire to use, 2. what length of wire to use, 3. how to calculate the
>>wire temp given the use of a standard 12V system (13.5?) and, 4. can I
>>use some sort of variable input to regulate the heat output so to keep
>>the carbs at a constant temp throughout the extremes in OAT?
>>
>>
>
> this has been considered before . . . it was about 10 years ago
> that I had some discussions with some builders on Compuserve's
> avsig forum about electric carb heat.
>
> Problem is that you've got a LOT of cold air coming into the
> carb to run the engine. Let's assume a 100 cu" engine running
> 5000 rpm. If it's a 4-cycle, it sucks in about 100 cu" of cold
> air every two revolutions or 2500 x 100 cu"/minute. Density of
> air at sea level is about 1/800th that of water. Water and air
> have the same specific heat so you're needing to put the same
> temperature rise on 313 cu" of water/minute as 250,000 cu"
> of air/minute. To overcome additional cooling due to vaporization
> of fuel, I think I've heard a number of 40 degrees F tossed
> around. Okay cu" of water weighs .036 lb so 313 cu" weighs
> about 11 pounds. 40 degrees F rise on 11 pounds of water
> takes 440 BTU of heat/minute. 440 BTU per minute works out to
> 26400 BTU per hour. 1 watt is 3.4 BTU per hour. So 26,400/3.4
> suggests your heater needs to good for about 7700 watts.
> If you have a 2 cycle engine, the volume of air doubles
> and so does the necessary power.
>
> These numbers seem in line with the kind of heat one might
> expect off a heater muff of an 80 hp piston engine . . .
> about 7 hair driers worth. Yub, one hair drier at 1000W
> is pretty whimpy heat for a cold cabin . . . been there,
> tried that. 7,000 watts doesn't seem unreasonable.
>
> That's about 550 amps of your 14 volt system. That's the
> sledge hammer approach to carb heat . . . warm ALL the
> incoming air such that carb ice is not only unable to
> form but can be shed after substantial ice has already
> formed. It's worked well on lots of airplanes since
> the early 1940's
>
> If one could concentrate the heat at places were ice
> collects, there might be a more efficient way to use
> less energy . . . but with nothing BETTER to do with
> gobs of waste heat going out the exhaust stacks, the
> heater muff was hard to beat for economical to operate
> and easy to fabricate and maintain.
>
> Eric, Dave, did I do that analysis right? In any case,
> I think you're going to find that it takes a whole
> lot more electric heat that you have available to do
> an adequate job of de-icing a carburetor.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Electric Carb heat? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave & Wendy Grosvenor" <dwg@iafrica.com>
What engine have you got. If it's a Rotax, try water heating - it works.
Dave
> I am trying to design an electric full time carb heat system for my
> Bing carb using Nichrome wire. I anticiapte that I would need to heat
> the carb body up about 50F over amibent. I am still experimenting with
> carb temps without heat, but theory claims it is possible to experinece
> up to 80F temp loss due to vaporization of the fuel. I know little to
> nothing about what I need to know, I just have a basic idea. I thought
> to wrap the wire around the bing carb body to keep it warm at all times
> without heating the intake air. How can I figure out: 1. What diameter
> of wire to use, 2. what length of wire to use, 3. how to calculate the
> wire temp given the use of a standard 12V system (13.5?) and, 4. can I
> use some sort of variable input to regulate the heat output so to keep
> the carbs at a constant temp throughout the extremes in OAT?
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