Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:58 AM - Re: XPDR strobe ? (Gilles.Thesee)
2. 05:39 AM - Re: Re: Wiring Diagrams Available (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 07:11 AM - Re: ACS2002 Voltage Selector (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 08:11 AM - Re: Re: Wiring Diagrams Available (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 08:12 AM - Re: MicroAir transponder wiriing harness (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 08:26 AM - Re: Fuel sw? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 08:32 AM - Re: Re: Wiring Diagrams Available (F1Rocket@comcast.net)
8. 09:00 AM - Re: Shield termination KCS55A/KI525A (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 09:06 AM - Re: EGT / CHT wiring urban .... (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
10. 09:11 AM - Re: Re: Wiring Diagrams Available (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
11. 11:07 AM - Re: EGT / CHT wiring urban .... ('Scott Richardson')
12. 12:46 PM - Re: EGT / CHT wiring urban .... (Trampas)
13. 02:54 PM - KA-134 and Wiring Diagram (Jack Lockamy)
14. 03:11 PM - Intermittent Internet Connectivity Issues to Matronics... (Matt Dralle)
15. 07:13 PM - Resistive Fuel Sensors (hollandm)
16. 08:25 PM - Re: Resistive Fuel Sensors (John Slade)
17. 11:52 PM - Turbo pressure to mags? (Ronald J. Parigoris)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: XPDR strobe ? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gilles.Thesee" <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
> If your transponder uses the strobe line (most don't these days), then
> connect that wire. Otherwise just connect it to ground.
Neal,
Thank you for answering. I was able to complete the wiring last summer.
Actually, I should hava asked "what is the purpose of the strobe line in a
transponder ?"
Thanks,
Gilles
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring Diagrams Available |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 01:51 PM 12/22/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dj Merrill
><deej@thayer.dartmouth.edu>
>
>Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
> >>Then what is the purpose of the AUX ALT switch? If it is supposed to be
> >>on always, one can always use the AUX C/B to take the Aux alternator
> off-line.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > You can do that if you wish. This system was crafted mostly to
> > support adding a capable alternator to an existing system . . .
> > particularly certified ships. The feds wouldn't look kindly
> > on using a circuit breaker as a panel control. However, the
> > C210 installation does in fact use a switch-breaker for the
> > bus-feed control.
> >
> >
>
>Hi Bob,
> I'm perhaps showing my newbie ignorance here, but why
>would the feds have an issue with using a switch-breaker
>as a panel control? Isn't that what they are designed for?
>
>-Dj, curious...
Breakers and fuses protect wires and are generally placed as
close to the high-current source (bus) that supplies the
wire. Many builders have elected to use a mix of switch-breakers
on pilots side and more common push-pull or push-only breakers
on the copilot's side. This causes you to build a large bus
structure that spreads across the panel. One of the fuse-block's
more endearing features is the compact, nearly completely inclosed,
ready made bus that runs down the middle of the assembly.
In the case of the C210, I don't think they had room in the breaker
panel for enough new breakers to accommodate the SD-20 installation.
They were able to get the kit approved with a relatively short
(but probably longer than 6") always-hot-and-unprotected wire
feeding the panel mounted switch-breaker (fusible link would
have been a good lick here). Using a switch-breaker in lieu
of the push-pull breaker/toggle switch combination solved
the logistics problem.
Bob . . .
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: ACS2002 Voltage Selector |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 01:49 PM 12/22/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Pat Hatch" <pat_hatch@msn.com>
>
>Bob,
>
>I wonder if you could propose a solution for the following:
>
>The ACS2002 engine monitor uses the bus for a power source and also to
>monitor bus voltage. If I have the dual electrical system (Z-14), how
>does one select main and aux bus voltage without breaking the power source
>for the monitor? I assume that I would re-boot the system every time that
>I changed the voltage selection via a single pole double throw switch. I
>am sure there is a better solution. Thanks for your help.
Try it first. Switch transition times may be fast enough
for the systems internal filter caps to hold voltage
up during transfer. If not . . .
You can install a capacitor across the + supply to the
system to store energy needed to support he monitor during
switch transition. Just as a rough idea of capacitor
size, 1 amp of current flow changes the voltage across
a 1 farad capacitor at the rate of 1 volt per second.
Assume your system draws 1 amp and lets use 100 mS as
a reasonable transition time. Assume further that the
system stays active at 10v or above. Sooo . . . we can
tolerate up to say 3 volts of drop for 100 mS at 1A
of system draw.
Taking the relationship I cited:
A V
----- = ------
C S
or:
1 = 3
----- -----
C .1
transposing we get:
.1
C = ----- = 33,000 microfarads
3
If your current is lower, the size of the
capacitor goes down in proportion. If your
allowable voltage drop is higher, the capacitor
goes down in proportion. If the switch transition
time is longer, the capacitor goes up in
proportion.
The relationships cited assume constant current
draw as voltage changes which may not be true
but will be in the ballpark for the purposes
of this calculation.
B&C stocks a 47,000 uF cap (Cat #S251D479) for
$12 that has a high order of probability for
taking care of this problem with no additional
need for discovery.
Bob . . .
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring Diagrams Available |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 07:05 PM 12/22/2003 +0000, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: F1Rocket@comcast.net
>
> > If you eliminate the switch (and the breaker stays normally
> > closed) the s/b alternator comes up immediately after starting
> > the engine.
>
>That's okay isn't it? I assumed that you don't mess with the
>switch during start-up, but rather just leave it on.
It's your checklist. I prefer to turn everything off at shutdown
and bring things back up one at a time after startup as part of
a preflight analysis of system operation. Exercising switches while
watching for expected results is a generally good policy.
This is one reason why I prefer to turn radios off via their
front panel switches (as opposed to the "convenience" of
brining all radios on with an avionics master). You put your
hands on each radio and see that it comes alive as opposed to
flipping one switch and assuming that everything on that switch
is working okay. This would apply to the aux alternator as well.
The ACTION of flipping the switch in the checklist is paired
with an OBSERVATION of expected behavior.
Bob . . .
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: MicroAir transponder wiriing harness |
problem
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
problem
At 10:48 AM 12/22/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rick Fogerson" <rickf@cableone.net>
>
>Do Not Archive
>
>Sorry Bob,
>We didn't talk about the requirements any further than just " a wiring
>harness for the T2000 xpdr. Unfortunately I didn't know enough to realize
>that the harness would be different for different encoders.
>I've just been able to talk to Rocky Mtn. and think the best thing is to
>send the harness back to you with instructions. I'll get it in the mail
>today!
Very good.
Bob . . .
Message 6
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 03:46 PM 12/22/2003 +0000, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Steve Hunt"
><Stephen.Hunt19@btinternet.com>
>
>Hi,
>new to the list, about 8 months from first flight RV8 in UK. Three
>electrical bits puzzling me and wonder if you can help.
>
>1. Have an IO 360 (injected ) engine. I am supposing that a simple toggle,
>on/off will suffice for the fuel pump?
Sure.
>2. My essential bus is to get me on the ground as soon as
>possible...endurance not the issue that many people want. We cannot fly
>IMC or at night in UK with home build. After 13000 hrs "conditioning" as
>an airline pilot I do not want to stay airborne with an unresolved
>electrical problem....especially when I have constructed the set up! In UK
>never far from a landable site.
>I want to supply the VHF, Tx Pdr, EFIS Lite(Blue Mountain ) AND Flap
>motor from the essential bus, normally via a silicone diode from the main
>bus. In non normal mode Flaps would be selected when Visual, clear to Land
>and committed....if any pwr left. What size , type of diode do I need for
>normal operation of such a system?
Doesn't sound like you need an E-bus. Why put an EFIS system in
an airplane that will never need it? Given the rules of engagement
for OBAM aircraft in the UK, it might be practical to build
this ship up like a super-J3. If you're interested in aerobatics,
you could take out a LOT of weight by incorporating a minimal
electrical system to support the starter and a couple of radios.
>3. Any thoughts on best solution to wiring in the ammeter?
If you're talking about the classic minus-zero-plus reading battery
ammeter,
this too is a throwback to the way we wired airplanes in 1946. Use of this
instrument requires that the alternator b-lead be brought into the cockpit
and tied to the main bus . . . something that is useful to avoid.
Perhaps your needs are better served with incorporation of
system architecture described in Van's literature for the
kit. Similar systems are described in works by Tony Bingelis.
Bob . . .
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring Diagrams Available |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: F1Rocket@comcast.net
> This is one reason why I prefer to turn radios off via their
> front panel switches (as opposed to the "convenience" of
> brining all radios on with an avionics master). You put your
> hands on each radio and see that it comes alive as opposed to
> flipping one switch and assuming that everything on that switch
> is working okay. This would apply to the aux alternator as well.
> The ACTION of flipping the switch in the checklist is paired
> with an OBSERVATION of expected behavior.
That's really a great piece of advice. I never looked at it that way. Thank you
for the insight.
Randy
F1 Rocket
http://f1rocket.home.comcast.net/
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Shield termination KCS55A/KI525A |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 10:57 AM 12/22/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Greg.Puckett@united.com
>
>
>Hello,
>
>I'm hoping someone can recommend where to attach the shield terminations
>for a KI525A HSI. I've seen photo's (cannot find link) that show the
>shield terminations attached to the screw on the KI525's connector
>strain relief. I'm really not happy with this because the strain relief
>is just floating in the slot of the back shell and the back shell itself
>is only attached electrically to the connector alignment/keying posts
>(still just floating).
It's a common practice to tie shields to connector backshells
in avionics installations. Obviously, this works ONLY when all
connector shells are metallic . . . the goal is to get shields
connected to the outer case of the accessory. If your hardware
doesn't seem to achieve this goal, then tying shields to a
"ground" pin in the connector is a better bet.
Bob . . .
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: EGT / CHT wiring urban .... |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 05:11 PM 12/22/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "AI Nut" <ainut@earthlink.net>
>
>This is what I was told by a manufacturer and others (hope I remember it
>correctly):
>
>One needs to have the same kind of wire, kind is dependent upon the
>thermocouple (TC), all the way from the sensor to the final instrument.
>
>If you need a multi-way switch, use the same kind of wire to the switch,
>then it is conservative to use the same kind of wire from the switch to the
>instrument. Caveat: the switch needs to be in the same temperature zone as
>the instrument since the 'cold junction' matches are critical to
>sensor/instrument accuracy. Anytime one has a connection in the sensor
>wire, one creates another cold junction.
It's more accurate to say that deleterious effects of
any parasitic thermocouples generated when introducing
foreign metals can be minimized as long as whatever is done
to one side of the thermocouple path is done to the other side
but in opposite polarity . . . it's a sorta two-wrongs-can-
make-a-right approach.
For our purposes, this rule of thumb works as error-balancing
issues are small. When in doubt, don't intermix alloys in the
wiring to any greater extent than necessary.
>One can't mix a digital instrument with an analog system and maintain
>accuracy to either one.
Not necessarily true. It depends on the input signal conditioning
techniques used in each instrument. It MIGHT work just fine.
Bob . . .
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring Diagrams Available |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 01:26 AM 12/23/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: ACE595@aol.com
>
>bob whats you feeling about using the EXP Buss system and not using the
>normal circut breaker type set up?
>Tom ware
I don't believe this product to be of good value. For what this
item costs, you can buy ALL of the goodies needed to wire your
airplane and have $ left over. Further, what ends up in your airplane
is EXACTLY what you want, not what someone thinks you need in
a plug-n-play product. The product isn't "unsafe" and probably
performs as advertised.
See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/expbusad.html
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/expbusthd.html
Bob . . .
Message 11
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| Subject: | EGT / CHT wiring urban .... |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "'Scott Richardson'" <scott_m_richardson@sbcglobal.net>
So along these lines, I'm designing a engine temperature scanner that
allows me to scan through the two sets of temperatures and send
one of each of CHT and EGT to my RMI Micromonitor which only accepts
a single CHT and EGT. In following Bob's advice around the switching
of thermocouple wires, I've also tried to keep the traces around my
PC board as equal in length as possible between cylinders and between
the two wires in a thermocouple. I'm also intending to mount the
scanner on my panel next to my RMI unit and run all thermocouple leads
right up to it.
So the questions I have are two:
o How concerned should I be about keeping all the PCB traces the same
length? From the previous discussions, it sounds like all I really
need to worry about is keeping everything at the same temperature.
o I'm planning on using CD4052 multiplexer IC's which are used for
analog
signals. These chips can pass a max of 20V p-p analog signals. Does
anyone see any issues with these when the thermocouple signals are on
the order of 10's of mV?
o I'm assuming that in general of the J and K type thermocouples we use
for
CHT and EGT, that the signals are always positive or always negative
(depending on how they're connected to the measuring device) in the
temp ranges we use. Is this a correct assumption?
As always, thanks for the help.
Scott
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EGT / CHT wiring urban ....
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
--> <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 05:11 PM 12/22/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "AI Nut" <ainut@earthlink.net>
>
>This is what I was told by a manufacturer and others (hope I remember
>it
>correctly):
>
>One needs to have the same kind of wire, kind is dependent upon the
>thermocouple (TC), all the way from the sensor to the final instrument.
>
>If you need a multi-way switch, use the same kind of wire to the
>switch, then it is conservative to use the same kind of wire from the
>switch to the instrument. Caveat: the switch needs to be in the same
>temperature zone as the instrument since the 'cold junction' matches
>are critical to sensor/instrument accuracy. Anytime one has a
>connection in the sensor wire, one creates another cold junction.
It's more accurate to say that deleterious effects of
any parasitic thermocouples generated when introducing
foreign metals can be minimized as long as whatever is done
to one side of the thermocouple path is done to the other side
but in opposite polarity . . . it's a sorta two-wrongs-can-
make-a-right approach.
For our purposes, this rule of thumb works as error-balancing
issues are small. When in doubt, don't intermix alloys in the
wiring to any greater extent than necessary.
>One can't mix a digital instrument with an analog system and maintain
>accuracy to either one.
Not necessarily true. It depends on the input signal conditioning
techniques used in each instrument. It MIGHT work just fine.
Bob . . .
==
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
==
==
==
Message 12
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| Subject: | EGT / CHT wiring urban .... |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Trampas" <tstern@nc.rr.com>
Scott,
The trace lengths will not make much difference, however you need to be
careful in your circuit design as that the thermocouples often have ground
loop problems. That is a CHT probe on #1 and CHT probe on #4 may have a
different DC offset. Therefore you have to be careful in you mux design.
Specifically most muxes have diode clamps on the inputs for ESD protection
of the internal circuits (MOS transistors) therefore lets say that CHT #1
has a -1V DC offset, which can happen if the ground connection is not great.
Then the mux diodes would clip this to -0.7V if the negative rail of the mux
is grounded. Thus you CHT reading will not be correct.
To fix this problem it is best to use a negative voltage for the Vdd of the
mux, which means not only do you need a positive rail but also a negative
voltage rail. The negative voltage rail is not too hard to generate using a
switcher or a pump circuit but it is one more thing to consider.
I know that as I designed my engine monitor I ran into a lot of problems
with ground loop noise where the noise was only a few millivolts. I finally
designed my unit rails such that I could have over a +/-2V ground loop with
out effecting the measurement. The final results were that I could get less
than 5 degrees of error in my measurements on 8 cylinders updated around 10
times a second.
If you need further assistance in your mux design let me know.
Regards,
Trampas Stern
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of 'Scott
Richardson'
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EGT / CHT wiring urban ....
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "'Scott Richardson'"
<scott_m_richardson@sbcglobal.net>
So along these lines, I'm designing a engine temperature scanner that
allows me to scan through the two sets of temperatures and send
one of each of CHT and EGT to my RMI Micromonitor which only accepts
a single CHT and EGT. In following Bob's advice around the switching
of thermocouple wires, I've also tried to keep the traces around my
PC board as equal in length as possible between cylinders and between
the two wires in a thermocouple. I'm also intending to mount the
scanner on my panel next to my RMI unit and run all thermocouple leads
right up to it.
So the questions I have are two:
o How concerned should I be about keeping all the PCB traces the same
length? From the previous discussions, it sounds like all I really
need to worry about is keeping everything at the same temperature.
o I'm planning on using CD4052 multiplexer IC's which are used for
analog
signals. These chips can pass a max of 20V p-p analog signals. Does
anyone see any issues with these when the thermocouple signals are on
the order of 10's of mV?
o I'm assuming that in general of the J and K type thermocouples we use
for
CHT and EGT, that the signals are always positive or always negative
(depending on how they're connected to the measuring device) in the
temp ranges we use. Is this a correct assumption?
As always, thanks for the help.
Scott
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EGT / CHT wiring urban ....
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
--> <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 05:11 PM 12/22/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "AI Nut" <ainut@earthlink.net>
>
>This is what I was told by a manufacturer and others (hope I remember
>it
>correctly):
>
>One needs to have the same kind of wire, kind is dependent upon the
>thermocouple (TC), all the way from the sensor to the final instrument.
>
>If you need a multi-way switch, use the same kind of wire to the
>switch, then it is conservative to use the same kind of wire from the
>switch to the instrument. Caveat: the switch needs to be in the same
>temperature zone as the instrument since the 'cold junction' matches
>are critical to sensor/instrument accuracy. Anytime one has a
>connection in the sensor wire, one creates another cold junction.
It's more accurate to say that deleterious effects of
any parasitic thermocouples generated when introducing
foreign metals can be minimized as long as whatever is done
to one side of the thermocouple path is done to the other side
but in opposite polarity . . . it's a sorta two-wrongs-can-
make-a-right approach.
For our purposes, this rule of thumb works as error-balancing
issues are small. When in doubt, don't intermix alloys in the
wiring to any greater extent than necessary.
>One can't mix a digital instrument with an analog system and maintain
>accuracy to either one.
Not necessarily true. It depends on the input signal conditioning
techniques used in each instrument. It MIGHT work just fine.
Bob . . .
==
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
==
==
==
Message 13
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| Subject: | KA-134 and Wiring Diagram |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jack Lockamy" <jacklockamy@att.net>
I need a wiring diagram/schematic and Owner's Manual for a Bendix/King KA-134 Audio
Panel. Does anyone know where I can purchase one or have a copy they would
be willing to share? I would gladly reimburse expenses....
Thanks,
Jack Lockamy
Camarillo, CA
Message 14
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| Subject: | Intermittent Internet Connectivity Issues to Matronics... |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
Dear Listers,
Starting at about 1:05pm PDT Matronics starting having intermittent
connectivity issues to the Internet. I've called the ISP and they are
looking into the problem and may do intrusive testing on the line at some
point this afternoon/evening. For the most part, things seem to be working
right now, but the line will drop out every once in a while for 2 to 3 minutes.
This problem will effect connections to the Matronics Web server as well as
distribution of List mail.
I will post a follow up when the problem has been resolved... Hopefully
later today.
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Admin.
Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
do not archive
Message 15
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| Subject: | Resistive Fuel Sensors |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "hollandm" <hollandm@pacbell.net>
I'm installing Stewart Warner resistive fuel sensors in my RV9A. To provide some
redundancy I am considering adding a set of Vans analog gauges, in series with
a Grand Rapids EIS4000.
Are there any concerns about having more than one gauge attached to these sensors?
Thanks
Mike Holland
N192MH Reserved
Message 16
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| Subject: | Resistive Fuel Sensors |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Slade" <sladerj@bellsouth.net>
> Are there any concerns about having more than one gauge attached
> to these sensors?
Now that's a question I'd like to hear the answer to. My system needs 3 oil
pressure sensors (hobbs, gauge and voice annunciator). Can I use the same
sensor for all of them? Same's true of oil temp & coolant temp.
Message 17
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| Subject: | Turbo pressure to mags? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ronald J. Parigoris" <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
I know that when flying high, that Turbo pressure is sent to mags.
In WW2 They sent pressure to ignition harnesses as well.
I am not sure why this suppresses arcing????
I think a vacuum is a better insulator than air???
Is it perhaps that it is not just pressurized, but is allowing an airflow to cool
things down?
Thx.
Ron Parigoris
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