---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 12/28/03: 7 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:28 AM - Manual master switch (Gary Casey) 2. 06:51 AM - sample Z figures (Mickey Coggins) 3. 07:41 AM - Re: Manual master switch (BobsV35B@aol.com) 4. 08:34 AM - Re: sample Z figures (Richard E. Tasker) 5. 02:38 PM - Avionics for sale (Richard@riley.net) 6. 07:45 PM - How do I solder My son's x-mas present, the 'electricity (David A. Leonard) 7. 08:20 PM - Re: How do I solder My son's x-mas present, (Richard E. Tasker) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:28:02 AM PST US From: "Gary Casey" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Manual master switch --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gary Casey" This was, I believe covered once before, but I don't remember the consensus: What are the pros/cons of using a manual master (battery) switch instead of the tradition relay contactor? It looks to me like the advantage is that it eliminates a failure mode and reduces the wiring complexity. The disadvantage is that there is likely a longer wire run from the battery that is unprotected. In my case the battery(s) will likely be located in the baggage compartment or rear of that, so the wire run is significant. The plane is plastic, though, so with appropriate wire runs the likelihood of a short to ground can be made to be negligibly small. I remember in car wiring design the idea was that the battery wire is large enough so that the battery will go dead before the wire will burn, although I don't know if it actually works that way. My idea is to mount the battery switch on the sidewall next to the pilot. Gary Casey ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:51:48 AM PST US From: Mickey Coggins Subject: AeroElectric-List: sample Z figures --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins Hi, I'm confused, nothing new. There is no example in appendix Z of a single alternator, dual battery system, is there? I'm planning on a subaru conversion, so I'll need a constant, automatic source of electricity. I don't know of any subaru conversions that have two alternators, so two batteries will be a must. I guess I want something like figure 17-6, but I don't quite understand how any of this is automatic. I'm missing the part where I wire my engine computer to both "always hot" battery busses, and it always gets juice. It all seems clear when I'm reading at the coffee table, but when I start to draw my own stuff, I realize how little I understood! Thanks! Mickey -- Mickey Coggins ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:41:52 AM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Manual master switch --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com In a message dated 12/28/03 8:28:47 AM Central Standard Time, glcasey@adelphia.net writes: What are the pros/cons of using a manual master (battery) switch instead of the tradition relay contactor? It looks to me like the advantage is that it eliminates a failure mode and reduces the wiring complexity. Good Morning Gary, Just as further food for thought, have you considered using a manual switch operated by a mechanical mechanism? The Sud Est Caravelle had a manual arrangement for shifting a bunch of 28 volt batteries into a much higher voltage arrangement for engine starting. I have forgotten the exact voltage, but I think we had enough batteries in series to supply something around one hundred and twenty volts to the starter for engine start. I do remember that the voltage would drop fifty or sixty volts during the start. (We had to monitor the voltage and shut it down if the voltage fell too low) There was a lever just to the left of my seat that I would operate to switch the battery bank from the series to the parallel mode. As soon as the engines were both started, I would move the lever to the twenty-eight volt position. Moving the lever also did things of which I have no knowledge to restore normal twenty-eight volt system operation. As I say. I have no idea what all the lever accomplished, but I do recall that all of the switching was manually done by moving that lever. It would add several points of mechanical failure, but it would save running that heavy wire and all of the attendant voltage drop. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Airpark LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:34:23 AM PST US From: "Richard E. Tasker" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: sample Z figures --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Richard E. Tasker" Not necessarily a recommendation, as I am going to develop my own electrical design, but if you go to www.eggenfellneraircraft.com there is a complete design there for what you want. It does, (unfortunately in my opinion) use the EXP Bus system, but it does all you want. Dick Tasker, RV9A #90573 Mickey Coggins wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins > >Hi, > >I'm confused, nothing new. There is no example in >appendix Z of a single alternator, dual battery >system, is there? > >I'm planning on a subaru conversion, so I'll need >a constant, automatic source of electricity. I >don't know of any subaru conversions that have two >alternators, so two batteries will be a must. > >I guess I want something like figure 17-6, but >I don't quite understand how any of this is >automatic. I'm missing the part where I >wire my engine computer to both "always hot" >battery busses, and it always gets juice. > >It all seems clear when I'm reading at the >coffee table, but when I start to draw my own >stuff, I realize how little I understood! > >Thanks! >Mickey > > >-- >Mickey Coggins > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 02:38:22 PM PST US From: Richard@riley.net Subject: AeroElectric-List: Avionics for sale --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Richard@Riley.net These will be going up on Barnstormers next week, but I thought I'd give the folks here first crack. 1) Microair T-2000 transponder. 4 digit serial number (so there are no outstanding mods to take care of,) never installed, in original packaging. With harness by Bob, full warrantee. $1400. Retail $1700 plus the price of the harness. 2) Apollo CNX80. New, never installed or run in any way, less than 30 days out of the factory, in original packaging. Full warrantee. $9000 Retail $1195 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:45:34 PM PST US From: "David A. Leonard" board', Off.topic@matronics.com, long.and.rambling.with.social.commentary..@matronics.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: How do I solder My son's x-mas present, the 'electricity board', Off topic, long and rambling with social commentary.. --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David A. Leonard" board', Off topic, long and rambling with social commentary.. Help! I have a toy for my 9 year old boy.. it's a kit, with a PCB, and a another PCB that solders to it. They both have tabs with silver contacts on them, the small PCB seems to fit into a slot on the motherboard, and the tabs align with each other on the back side of the motherboard. They meet at a ninety degree angle to each other, the tab with the connection solder leads sticks thru the motherboard. Kind of like this l_ , so it looks like I need to bridge the contacts. This contraption (The new component) needs to have various switches soldered to the board it a la our dear departed Heathkit catalog, and then a speaker and batteries..it eventually makes farm animal noises. (Does my heart good as it seems as though Heathkit is long gone!) I have soldered various components to boards in the past, but most had wires or leads that went thru the board, this is just tabs next to each other, like 8 on each board, with about 1mm separating the tabs. Do I just try to heat the adjacent tabs at the same time and flow some solder across the gap? My old man, (who is 74 , an orthopedic surgeon wannabe engineer..got into MIT right after WWII, and was told that if he went to Med school the army would pay for it and make him an officer...) got it for the 'electricity board' he built for the kid a few years ago..it is in for an overhaul/upgrade....(he did one for me in about 1963..I was three at the time..but there were no chips on that one). He couldn't figure out how to solder this new item, and decided I'd know how... By the way, the 'electricity board' is one of his coolest teaching inventions..it consists of a battery pack, a few DPDT knife type switches, a momentary on switch, a variable resistor, some LED's (my '63 model didn't have these), an electric motor with a propeller, a buzzer, some light bulbs, a horn, etc, , all mounted to a 12" x 18" plywood board. Also included with the set are ten or fifteen alligator clipped jumper leads, in red and black. Each component has its leads soldered to a terminal suitable for clipping an alligator clip jumper lead to it. From this basic bread board, we can teach all those neato concepts like..complete circuit, resistance, positive and negative, series, parallel, short circuit..you guys get the idea. You can hook it up in endless configurations. The only problem with this toy is that as the owner and beneficiary of it, you end up with some strange looks from the adults around you, when you are ten years old and you tell them that "you need to clean off the ground connections on this battery if you want your boat to start"...or "you better watch the polarity on those jumper cables, you are hooking your two cars up in series..I don't think they are going to like 24 volts..!" You get a lot of disbelieving looks, but eventually those adults will do what you tell them. It really pisses them off when a little kid knows more about it than they do.....eventually(later in life) they just hire you to deal with the problems... did you ever notice how hard it is when they are stumped and have to ask for help... they tend to resent the help sometimes as it challenges their egos....That is what I like most about this list..we all seem to realize we don't know it all...(except me of course)....and how nice it is to have someone to ask! I don't think I've ever seen any arrogance or attitudes on this list.. no flame wars, no insults..just a lot of good old help..and "do me a favor, show me where I'm wrong"! Most people don't really have a clue about how this stuff works, in fact most adults would probably benefit from a few hours with the "Electricity board"..I know it formed the basis for my understanding of the concepts....A/C and especially three phase caused a little head scratching later in life, and those pesky PFM (pure F***Magic) electronics concepts are just starting to emerge from the murk of my understanding! This Aero Electric list has helped me greatly! Anyway.. I realize this is an AIRPLANE internet group, but I figger if I can learn the boy to make electronics himself, I have a shot at him not becoming a useless consumer/know nothing type, and then, if he 'needs' an aircraft..he'll have the necessary 'can do' attitude( I refer to it, and myself as "too numb to be scared") and the skills it takes to make or repair one. I haven't built an aircraft, I bought a Bellanca Viking..I do a lot of the maintenance on it, (personally pulled one of the jugs at the last annual and ground the valves)and through the use of this website, have fixed many(all actually..we can't have less than a working bird now can we?) of the electrical problems that baffled the various ' FAA cerified expert maintenance facilities". Specifically to date these are some of the problems that this list has helped me through: 1. the unstable charging system due to poor connections in the field wire/master switch circuit.. A loose Fast-on was the worst culprit..tested fine with continuity, but the resistance went up due to the loose connection and vibration, and created instability in the regulator...That one fooled all the other owners and shops for twenty years and several thousand dollars of component replacement, according to the logs..I personally had a shop replace the alternator, and I replaced the regulator before I wised up and found the problem myself). I was on to that one from figuring it out myself when I read the Aero-Electric website article on Cessna split master switches, and gained a much better understanding of what was going on. 2. The 'disappearing transponder return' ...Avionics shops told me "all Vikings (cloth planes in general) have that problem..'Lectric Bob suggested a 5.4" copper disc at the base of the antenna for a good ground plane..stuck it on the ouside of the plane under the tail...Problem GONE!! ..There are a few other Vikings now flying with a copper disc ground plane now as well... 3. My Century 1 Autopilot not following the heading bug (contact cleaner at all the connections). 4. The MOSFET replacement in MY BMW heater control board..(well this stuff is useful for more than just aircraft now isn't it?) So I really do appreciate all you folks efforts here.. I think we have one heck of a great list! Thanks for the help, I need to look good for the kid here..he hasn't figured out that I'm just a guy yet..still thinks I can do anything...and I guess I would like to hold on to that for another few weeks at least! Sorry for the long post, I was in a writing mood, and I warned you guys in the header! Dave Leonard N77FE '72 SuperViking 300 (with fully functioning electrical system and avionics/autopilot) ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:20:06 PM PST US From: "Richard E. Tasker" the 'electricity board', Off.topic@matronics.com, long.and.rambling.with.social.commentary..@matronics.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: How do I solder My son's x-mas present, the 'electricity board', Off topic, long and rambling with social commentary.. --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Richard E. Tasker" the 'electricity board', Off topic, long and rambling with social commentary.. You have the answer already. As you said, just bridge the gap with solder. You do not really have to solder to each part simultaneously - put a "blob" on one part and another blob on the other part and then reflow the solder a bit to connect them. Alternately, you can use short pieces of wire to help connect the two parts - just soldered flat on the boards. I suspect that this is also a structural connection so the solder blobs is the best way. This is actually a fairly common interconnection method is some consumer products. If the PCBs are phenolic (brown) be careful of the soldering temperature. Dick Tasker, RV9A #90573 David A. Leonard wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David A. Leonard" board', Off topic, long and rambling with social commentary.. > >Help! >I have a toy for my 9 year old boy.. it's a kit, with a PCB, and a another >PCB that solders to it. They both have tabs with silver contacts on them, >the small PCB seems to fit into a slot on the motherboard, and the tabs >align with each other on the back side of the motherboard. They meet at a >ninety degree angle to each other, the tab with the connection solder leads >sticks thru the motherboard. Kind of like this l_ , so it looks like I >need to bridge the contacts. > >This contraption (The new component) needs to have various switches >soldered to the board it a la our dear departed Heathkit catalog, and then >a speaker and batteries..it eventually makes farm animal noises. (Does my >heart good as it seems as though Heathkit is long gone!) I have soldered >various components to boards in the past, but most had wires or leads that >went thru the board, this is just tabs next to each other, like 8 on each >board, with about 1mm separating the tabs. Do I just try to heat the >adjacent tabs at the same time and flow some solder across the gap? > >My old man, (who is 74 , an orthopedic surgeon wannabe engineer..got into >MIT right after WWII, and was told that if he went to Med school the army >would pay for it and make him an officer...) got it for the 'electricity >board' he built for the kid a few years ago..it is in for >an overhaul/upgrade....(he did one for me in about 1963..I was three at >the time..but there were no chips on that one). He couldn't figure out >how to solder this new item, and decided I'd know how... > >By the way, the 'electricity board' is one of his coolest teaching >inventions..it consists of a battery pack, a few DPDT knife type switches, >a momentary on switch, a variable resistor, some LED's (my '63 model >didn't have these), an electric motor with a propeller, a buzzer, some >light bulbs, a horn, etc, , all mounted to a 12" x 18" plywood board. Also >included with the set are ten or fifteen alligator clipped jumper leads, in >red and black. Each component has its leads soldered to a terminal suitable >for clipping an alligator clip jumper lead to it. > > From this basic bread board, we can teach all those neato concepts >like..complete circuit, resistance, positive and negative, series, >parallel, short circuit..you guys get the idea. You can hook it up in >endless configurations. > > The only problem with this toy is that as the owner and beneficiary of >it, you end up with some strange looks from the adults around you, when >you are ten years old and you tell them that "you need to clean off the >ground connections on this battery if you want your boat to >start"...or "you better watch the polarity on those jumper cables, you are >hooking your two cars up in series..I don't think they are going to like >24 volts..!" You get a lot of disbelieving looks, but eventually those >adults will do what you tell them. > >It really pisses them off when a little kid knows more about it than they >do.....eventually(later in life) they just hire you to deal with the >problems... did you ever notice how hard it is when they are stumped and >have to ask for help... they tend to resent the help sometimes as it >challenges their egos....That is what I like most about this list..we all >seem to realize we don't know it all...(except me of course)....and how >nice it is to have someone to ask! I don't think I've ever seen any >arrogance or attitudes on this list.. no flame wars, no insults..just a lot >of good old help..and "do me a favor, show me where I'm wrong"! > >Most people don't really have a clue about how this stuff works, in fact >most adults would probably benefit from a few hours with the "Electricity >board"..I know it formed the basis for my understanding of the >concepts....A/C and especially three phase caused a little head scratching >later in life, and those pesky PFM (pure F***Magic) electronics concepts >are just starting to emerge from the murk of my understanding! This Aero >Electric list has helped me greatly! > >Anyway.. > > > I realize this is an AIRPLANE internet group, but I figger if I can >learn the boy to make electronics himself, I have a shot at him not >becoming a useless consumer/know nothing type, and then, if he 'needs' an >aircraft..he'll have the necessary 'can do' attitude( I refer to it, and >myself as "too numb to be scared") and the skills it takes to make or >repair one. > >I haven't built an aircraft, I bought a Bellanca Viking..I do a lot of the >maintenance on it, (personally pulled one of the jugs at the last annual >and ground the valves)and through the use of this website, have fixed >many(all actually..we can't have less than a working bird now can we?) of >the electrical problems that baffled the various ' FAA cerified expert >maintenance facilities". > >Specifically to date these are some of the problems that this list has >helped me through: > >1. the unstable charging system due to poor connections in the field >wire/master switch circuit.. A loose Fast-on was the worst culprit..tested >fine with continuity, but the resistance went up due to the loose >connection and vibration, and created instability in the regulator...That >one fooled all the other owners and shops for twenty years and several >thousand dollars of component replacement, according to the logs..I >personally had a shop replace the alternator, and I replaced the >regulator before I wised up and found the problem myself). I was on to >that one from figuring it out myself when I read the Aero-Electric website >article on Cessna split master switches, and gained a much better >understanding of what was going on. > >2. The 'disappearing transponder return' ...Avionics shops told me "all >Vikings (cloth planes in general) have that problem..'Lectric Bob suggested >a 5.4" copper disc at the base of the antenna for a good ground >plane..stuck it on the ouside of the plane under the tail...Problem GONE!! >..There are a few other Vikings now flying with a copper disc ground plane >now as well... > >3. My Century 1 Autopilot not following the heading bug (contact cleaner >at all the connections). > >4. The MOSFET replacement in MY BMW heater control board..(well this stuff >is useful for more than just aircraft now isn't it?) > >So I really do appreciate all you folks efforts here.. I think we have one >heck of a great list! > >Thanks for the help, I need to look good for the kid here..he hasn't >figured out that I'm just a guy yet..still thinks I can do anything...and I >guess I would like to hold on to that for another few weeks at least! > >Sorry for the long post, I was in a writing mood, and I warned you guys in >the header! > >Dave Leonard N77FE '72 SuperViking 300 (with fully functioning electrical >system and avionics/autopilot) > > > >