Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:14 AM - Re: Twisting Fat Wires (F1Rocket@comcast.net)
2. 06:12 AM - Over-voltage, etc. (Gary Casey)
3. 06:48 AM - LR3C-14 low voltage warn light (Matt Jurotich)
4. 06:52 AM - Re: Microair 760 intercom (Duncan McBride)
5. 07:48 AM - Re: Microair 760 intercom (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 08:04 AM - Re: Twisting Fat Wires (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 08:04 AM - book availability (AI Nut)
8. 08:09 AM - Re: Horizontal Contactor (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 08:10 AM - Re: Phone/Mic Jack Connector (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
10. 08:31 AM - Z-Document to Start From? (Kenny Bauman)
11. 08:47 AM - Thanks Bob (Don Boardman)
12. 09:33 AM - Re: book availability (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
13. 10:03 AM - Re: LR3C-14 low voltage warn light (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
14. 10:14 AM - Re: OVM (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
15. 11:12 AM - Lightweight Panel-mounted AM/FM/CD Player.... (Jack Lockamy)
16. 11:40 AM - Thanks Bob for all your time and energy (Dave Morris)
17. 11:41 AM - Re: Lightweight Panel-mounted AM/FM/CD (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
18. 01:14 PM - Re: battery tester (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
19. 01:20 PM - Re: sample Z figures (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
20. 01:35 PM - Re: Lightweight Panel-mounted AM/FM/CD Player.... (Richard Tasker)
21. 01:37 PM - Pondering changing fom Z-13 to Z-12 (Scott Diffenbaugh)
22. 02:06 PM - Re: sample Z figures (Richard Tasker)
23. 02:32 PM - Re: Lightweight Panel-mounted AM/FM/CD Player.... (Larry Bowen)
24. 02:35 PM - Re: Lightweight Panel-mounted AM/FM/CD Player.... (Terry Watson)
25. 02:35 PM - Re: sample Z figures (Mickey Coggins)
26. 02:53 PM - Re: Lightweight Panel-mounted AM/FM/CD (Richard@Riley.net.Player)
27. 03:10 PM - Re: Lightweight Panel-mounted AM/FM/CD Player.... (Matt Prather)
28. 04:15 PM - Re: Lightweight Panel-mounted AM/FM/CD Player.... (Terry Watson)
29. 05:15 PM - Battery Question (Slightly off-topic) (Eric M. Jones)
30. 05:29 PM - Re: Battery Question (Slightly off-topic) (Carlos Sa)
31. 06:13 PM - Re: Lightweight Panel-mounted AM/FM/CD Player.... (Kevin Klinefelter)
32. 06:30 PM - Re: Battery Question (Slightly off-topic) (Tom & Cathy Ervin)
33. 07:06 PM - Manual master switch (klehman@albedo.net)
34. 07:15 PM - Re: Lightweight Panel-mounted AM/FM/CD Player.... (Darwin N. Barrie)
35. 09:30 PM - Re: Battery Question (Slightly off-topic) (Robert McCallum)
36. 11:06 PM - Re: Battery Question (Slightly off-topic) (Jim Sower)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Twisting Fat Wires |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: F1Rocket@comcast.net
The reference was in a previous version of the Connection, although it is not present
in the current version. Perhaps Bob can provide the background.
Randy
F1 Rocket
http://f1rocket.home.comcast.net/
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Don Boardman <dboardm3@twcny.rr.com>
>
> Hi All,
>
> Not to long ago I saw reference to twisting the fat wires (#4) from a
> battery located aft in the fuselage as they ran up to the firewall. I can't
> find a reference in Bob's book. This seems to complicate the installation of
> the wires. I can find no reference in the archives.
>
> SO... Twisted or parallel? What's the scoop?
>
> Thanks,
> Don B
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Over-voltage, etc. |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gary Casey" <glcasey@adelphia.net>
<<Had two customers in years past try to set their airplanes on
> fire after a direct connected starter contactor stuck and they
> couldn't shut them off . . .
> Redundant shut-offs are no good unless
>you have some way to shut off the starter anyway.
> Don't understand . . .
> One good way to shut off
>the starter without a separate switch is to shut off the engine. The
>battery will soon be dead, which is no problem.
> Unless it smokes the starter or melts a hole in the side of the
> battery . . >>
The above are a combination of my original comments and Bob's. I didn't
express myself accurately. I meant that "redundant shut-offs are no good
unless the pilot has a way to detect the stuck starter contactor to begin
with." I think a common scenario would be that the engine starts and the
starter stays on. A Bendix drive will disengage and the starter will
continue to spin at high rpm, no load. A positive-engaged starter gear will
remain engage and the free-wheel clutch will release the load, but the gear
will rotate at a too-high speed. The pilot doesn't notice until hopefully
the run-up when he sees that the battery is discharging heavily or the
alternator load is very high. By then the starter has become truly hot.
Shutting off the engine will then not help much as the battery will likely
not go dead before the starter has possibly caught on fire. Maybe the
starter melts into a short, causing the battery also overheat. The solution
to all this is perhaps not a redundant starter shut-off, but some kind of
indication that the starter is still powered. Is a "starter engaged"
warning light worth the complexity? It sounds like it. In that case even
if the starter were not able to be shut off by even a master contactor the
battery will likely go dead gracefully without starting a fire. It depends
on the type of starter motor and drive as to how much current is drawn.
After engine shutdown a positive-engage starter will revert to cranking the
engine and the battery draw will be probably about 150 amps. A 17 ah
battery will likely last for 2 or 3 minutes, as Bob said, and that shouldn't
start anything on fire. If there is such a chance something is wrong with
the basic design. A Bendix-drive starter will continue to run at high rpm,
no load and probably draw about 50 amps, taking a lot longer to shut off.
Would it fry its bearings before the battery runs dead?
Overall, I think I would vote for running the starter through a master
switch or contactor and adding (more complexity - drats!) a starter-engaged
warning light. Prompt detection of this failure mode would seem to be the
key to saving the day.
Gary Casey
As always the "facts" I expressed above are only my perception of reality.
Message 3
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| Subject: | LR3C-14 low voltage warn light |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Matt Jurotich <mjurotich@hst.nasa.gov>
I recently had something blow the LR3C-14 field fuse on my purchased when
flying RV 6A and the low voltage warning light did not come on. When I
rebuild the VFR panel for IFR the fuse will be replaced with a
breaker. Can I safely ground terminal 5 to test the light bulb? Assumming
the light bulb is good is the LR3C-14 repairable?
Matthew M. Jurotich
NASA/Goddard Space Flight Center
Swales contractor to the
JWST ISIM Systems Engineer
m/c : 443
e-mail mail to: <mjurotich@hst.nasa.gov>
phone : 301-286-5919
fax : 301-286-1736
JWST URL: <http://ngst1.gsfc.nasa.gov
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Microair 760 intercom |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Duncan McBride" <duncanmcbride@comcast.net>
I have a MicroAir 760 on my Kolb Twinstar with a Rotax 912 and it is loud.
I thought I was getting a bunch of electrical noise or something, because
the rasp coming throught the headset when I pushed the PTT or intercom
button was too loud to talk over. I tried different antennas, rerouting the
ignition wires (it's a pusher so they are kind of long) shielding the mic
and headphone wires. I installed a Sigtronics SPO-22N vox intercom and
while it worked ok, it was just as noisy when the squelch was broken. I was
about ready to buy new mics for the headphones. Tried a bunch of different
headsets. I put the Oregon Aero leather/foam thingies on the mics and that
helped a little. I could then notice that when the squelch on the vox
intercom was adjusted just so, I could turn my head a little, exposing the
mic to the engine noise, and the squelch would break. So I've enclosed the
entire cabin and installed soundproofing in the cabin ceiling. Cut the
noise by half, and I'm a happy guy.
Sometimes the right explanation is the simplest one. If you're getting a
lot of noise in your headset, it just might be your airplane. Don't be
surprised if the Softcom puts just as much noise in your headsets as the
MicroAir. But let us know - eventually I'll want to replace the SPO-22 with
a panel-mounted version, and I'd appreciate hearing of your experience.
Good luck,
Duncan McBride
N319DM
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Microair 760 intercom |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 09:53 AM 12/31/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Duncan McBride"
><duncanmcbride@comcast.net>
>
>I have a MicroAir 760 on my Kolb Twinstar with a Rotax 912 and it is loud.
>I thought I was getting a bunch of electrical noise or something, because
>the rasp coming throught the headset when I pushed the PTT or intercom
>button was too loud to talk over. I tried different antennas, rerouting the
>ignition wires (it's a pusher so they are kind of long) shielding the mic
>and headphone wires. I installed a Sigtronics SPO-22N vox intercom and
>while it worked ok, it was just as noisy when the squelch was broken. I was
>about ready to buy new mics for the headphones. Tried a bunch of different
>headsets. I put the Oregon Aero leather/foam thingies on the mics and that
>helped a little. I could then notice that when the squelch on the vox
>intercom was adjusted just so, I could turn my head a little, exposing the
>mic to the engine noise, and the squelch would break. So I've enclosed the
>entire cabin and installed soundproofing in the cabin ceiling. Cut the
>noise by half, and I'm a happy guy.
>
>Sometimes the right explanation is the simplest one. If you're getting a
>lot of noise in your headset, it just might be your airplane. Don't be
>surprised if the Softcom puts just as much noise in your headsets as the
>MicroAir. But let us know - eventually I'll want to replace the SPO-22 with
>a panel-mounted version, and I'd appreciate hearing of your experience.
Thank you for the narrative Duncan . . . it's most helpful.
As Duncan has discovered, not all headsets are alike and in particular
with respect to microphones. Crafting an effective "noise canceling"
microphone is not an easy task. I've researched raw mic cartridges for
various tasks over the years and found a wide range of noise cancelling
capabilities. Spec sheet data for a mic cartridge cannot be relied on
for comfort in microphone design . . . the noise canceling characteristics
are measured in the lab under sometimes obscure methods. For example,
a broadband "pink" noise might be used as the test source. Perhaps the
data was gathered as single tone sweep of the range of interest, or
1/3rd octive test tones. Whatever method is used, it cannot account for
(1) the noise encountered in YOUR airplane and (2) variability of
performance after the cartridge is mounted in the headset-mic housing.
In an open cockpit aircraft, wind noise can be next to impossible
to suppress. Closed cockpit aircraft can have standing waves of
sound at a particular frequency . . . something your ear wouldn't
notice but the squelch detector in the intercom does. For example,
its a rare rental aircraft that I can rent where setting intercom
squelch at critical won't open the squelch by simply turning
the head.
There ARE things intercom manufacturers could do. Micro-controllers
are dirt cheap nowadays. One could devise signal processing software
to (1) concentrate on voice characteristics as signals to be passed
along and (2) measure the ration of (1) with respect to cabin noise
to decide when squelch should be open or closed. This kind of intercom
would not even have a squelch control knob . . . it would be constantly
processing cabin ambient (including your voice) for optimum filtering
and squelch threshold setting.
This all goes to support some of my posts with respect to the 760VHF
hot mic intercom wherein the users were frustrated with what they
perceived as poor performance that would go away if they bought
a "real" intercom.
As I've discussed in chapter 16, a noise suppression project
must begin with data. Who is the antagonist and how is the
noise propagating from antagonist to victim? If there is
electrical noise in your intercom, the fix will involve
issues like shielding, filtering, relocating, or getting
rid of an antagonist that probably shouldn't be considered
for use in an airplane. If it's ambient noise, only a gross
reduction in noise (per Duncan's approach) or a more
elegant selection of microphones will help. These constraints
are a constant that have nothing to do with whether the
subject intercom system is a killobuck SuperVox Model 1000
or a piece of @#$@# 760VHF. Once the squelch is open OR the
PTT is pushed, EITHER system is a simple audio amplifier
connecting microphones to earphones. BOTH systems will
be equally subject to the variabilities of microphone
performance, cabin ambient noise and external electrical
stimuli. The only way this equation will change is when
someone takes the time to craft sophisticated, digital
processing of the voice signal both for signal to noise
qualities AND squelch threshold setting.
Bob . . .
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Twisting Fat Wires |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 01:10 PM 12/31/2003 +0000, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: F1Rocket@comcast.net
Back before I'd studied it much and during a time when
90% of my readers were canard-pusher builders, radiated
magnetic fields and liquid compass performance came up
as a topic. One builder ran is (+) fat wire down one side
of the cockpit and (-) fat wire down the other.
The results were spectacular. Cranking the engine would
produce a couple hundred rpm spin of the compass card.
After the engine started, turning on the alternator would
produce some fixed reading on the compass combined with a
decided, card binding tilt.
I suggested that he minimize radiated magnetic effects
in the cockpit by running ALL wires together . . . and
relying on what I'd come to understand about the advantages
of twisted pairs, suggested that he consider twisting the
fat wires together.
In years since, I've come to know that the additional
effort of twisting produces only marginal decrease in
magnetic interference while greatly increasing the
bulk of the cable in addition to effort required to install.
I revised the suggestion in later writings to recommend
simple, parallel routing of wire bundles such that for
every electron running in one direction through the bundle
was countered by another electron marching in the opposite
direction in closest practical proximity to the first.
Bob . . .
>The reference was in a previous version of the Connection, although it is
>not present in the current version. Perhaps Bob can provide the background.
>
>Randy
>F1 Rocket
>http://f1rocket.home.comcast.net/
> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Don Boardman
> <dboardm3@twcny.rr.com>
> >
> > Hi All,
> >
> > Not to long ago I saw reference to twisting the fat wires (#4) from a
> > battery located aft in the fuselage as they ran up to the firewall. I can't
> > find a reference in Bob's book. This seems to complicate the
> installation of
> > the wires. I can find no reference in the archives.
> >
> > SO... Twisted or parallel? What's the scoop?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Don B
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( A beginning of the end is marked by )
( replacement of experience and common )
( sense with policy and procedures. )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
--------------------------------------------
Message 7
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| Subject: | book availability |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "AI Nut" <ainut@earthlink.net>
Where can I purchase the book, please?
Thanks,
AI Nut
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Horizontal Contactor |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 08:36 PM 12/30/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Don Boardman <dboardm3@twcny.rr.com>
>
>Re-post original may have gotten lost in the Christmas rush.
>I hope to install the contactor tomorrow.
>
>Hi Bob and All,
>
>Quick question. Is there any concern about mounting a battery contactor with
>the coil tube in the horizontal position? Given the pounding that our
>seaplane will take on the water I wondered if there was any problem with the
>coil holding the contact bar in a horizontal position verses pulling it down
>while in a vertical position.
There are many a hangar-legend and ol' mechanic's tales circulating
about suggesting that there are critical orientation issues with
respect to contactor installation. All are based upon some
mis-interpretation of facts. The short answer is, No. Please
feel free to mount your contactors to maximize convenience
of installation.
Bob . . .
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Phone/Mic Jack Connector |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 08:37 PM 12/30/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Don Boardman <dboardm3@twcny.rr.com>
>
>Re-post original may have gotten lost in the Christmas rush.
>
>Hi Bob and All,
>
>We plan to put two cigar power jacks and the pilot's and co-pilot's phone
>and mic jacks between the pilot and co-pilot seats in a "small console".
>This console will need to be removed during annual inspection and therefore
>will need a disconnect.
>
>Are there any special considerations in selecting a connector because of the
>the phone and mic jacks? I am thinking Molex? Possibly D-sub?
D-sub would be my choice.
Bob . . .
Message 10
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| Subject: | Z-Document to Start From? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kenny Bauman <kennybauman@yahoo.com>
Bob,
What Z diagram would you recomend taking a look at for
the following:
Subaru engine
4 coils (1 per cyl)
4 injectors (1 per cyl)
2 computers
2 batteries
1 alternator
I'm thinking it would be nice to have a main bus,
essential bus (backup), overvoltage protection, and
the ability to tie the batteries together for a "self
jump".
I'm also thinking that feeding the injector and coil
12 volt feeds from both bus's would be a good idea.
Switching the ground leads via a relay board.
If this has been discussed please point me to an
approximate date and I will try the archives.
Thanks
Ken Bauman
__________________________________
http://companion.yahoo.com/
Message 11
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Don Boardman <dboardm3@twcny.rr.com>
Bob,
Thanks for holding my hand through the wiring process. If I have any doubt I
figure I'd better ask. Doing it safely and making our airplanes the best is
the goal.
I hope to get the Moose to the SeaBase at Oshkosh this year. I am there two
weeks as Activities Chairman.
BOB, I SURE WOULD LIKE TO PAY BACK YOUR KINDNESS AND DEDICATION TO THIS LIST
WITH SOME FLIGHT TIME. Do you make it to Oshkosh?
Don B.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: book availability |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 10:05 AM 12/31/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "AI Nut" <ainut@earthlink.net>
>
>Where can I purchase the book, please?
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AECcatalog.html
Bob . . .
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: LR3C-14 low voltage warn light |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 09:48 AM 12/31/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Matt Jurotich
><mjurotich@hst.nasa.gov>
>
>I recently had something blow the LR3C-14 field fuse on my purchased when
>flying RV 6A and the low voltage warning light did not come on. When I
>rebuild the VFR panel for IFR the fuse will be replaced with a
>breaker. Can I safely ground terminal 5 to test the light bulb? Assumming
>the light bulb is good is the LR3C-14 repairable?
Before the event, did the low voltage light ever flash?
If installed correctly, the low voltage light should flash
any time the battery switch is ON and the alternator is
not supplying power to the bus either because it is turned
OFF, failed, or engine not running.
This means the low voltage light gets tested EVERY preflight.
Yes, you can ground #5 to test the bulb. After replacing the
fuse, did it blow again?
Bob . . .
Message 14
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 08:55 PM 12/30/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" <Larry@BowenAero.com>
>
>I have Bob's OVM-14 Over Voltage Protection module for my internally
>regulated alternator installed in my plane. What's the easiest way to
>test it & verify I've installed it correctly?
Testing is best accomplished on the bench but there's a
technique described in:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/crowbar.pdf
for testing in the airplane too.
Bob . . .
Message 15
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| Subject: | Lightweight Panel-mounted AM/FM/CD Player.... |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jack Lockamy" <jacklockamy@att.net>
Anyone have a recommendation for a lightweight, automotive, AM/FM CD Player with
a decent anti-vibration/skip feature?
Went shopping at Best Buy recently for such an item and all the ones I looked seemed
to weigh 7-20lbs!!! I'm guessing this is because all the 'kiddies' want
mega watt amplifiers in those Honda Civics and thus the units are HEAVY.
Jack Lockamy
Camarillo, CA
Message 16
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| Subject: | Thanks Bob for all your time and energy |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dave Morris <dave@davemorris.com>
Bob Nuckolls,
Just wanted to thank you for all the time you spend on this list, as well
as traveling around the country, helping to advance the state of the art in
aircraft electrical systems. You're making a big difference.
Happy New Year
Dave Morris
Dragonfly N55UP under construction
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Lightweight Panel-mounted AM/FM/CD |
Player....
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
Player....
At 11:11 AM 12/31/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jack Lockamy" <jacklockamy@att.net>
>
>Anyone have a recommendation for a lightweight, automotive, AM/FM CD
>Player with a decent anti-vibration/skip feature?
>
>Went shopping at Best Buy recently for such an item and all the ones I
>looked seemed to weigh 7-20lbs!!! I'm guessing this is because all the
>'kiddies' want mega watt amplifiers in those Honda Civics and thus the
>units are HEAVY.
How about scraping the CD player idea . . . you can buy some
REALLY compact MP3 players to which you can download lots of
music. I bought a 256MB player for Dee for Xmas. It holds
about 80 tracks. Larger memory devices are available too.
You can download music tracks to the player from your
computer via USB cable. Further, the player will serve
as a portable hard drive to carry data between multiple
computers.
Dee's unit is about 1" x 3/4" x 3" and runs on one AAA
cell. Audio quality is good. No moving parts. Very rugged.
No skip protection needed. Already set up to work in
the low-level audio world (headphones).
Bob . . .
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: battery tester |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 06:58 PM 12/28/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>Bob
>
>I must be missing something but I cannot figure out why the 12 relay opens
>as the battery voltage goes lower. Assuming I can find the parts,
>especially the 120 volt clock, how do you select the relay open
>voltage. I would prefer 11 or 11.5 I would also like some feedback on my
>q2uestion below.
The relay will not stay energized for ever. The zener in series
with it raises the dropout voltage. The actual dropout voltage is not
critical. This is not a calibrated device. It only compares a
battery's current condition with some condition noted in the
past by using the same test fixture . . . this makes it unnecessary
to calibrate the fixture.
>Thanks
>
>Matt Jurotich
>
>.At 19:38 12/24/2003 +0000, you wrote:
>>Thank you for your inquiry to Bob Nuckolls submitted on Wednesday,
>>December 24, 2003.
>>
>>Below is a copy of the message you submitted.
>>
>>Matthew Jurotich
>>
>>
>>Email: mjurotich@hst.nasa.gov
>>Comments/Questions: Hi Bob
>>
>>I am rebuilding the panel in my RV 6A and simultaneously going to the Z13
>>electrical system with one 25 AH B&C battery. I just bought the new
>>battery and want to use your method for determining useful battey life
>>left. Finding the 120 volt electric clock called for seems impossible in
>>this day of battery operated digital everything. Do have a source for
>>clocks or can you propose an alternative? Reply on aeroelectric list is fine.
Garage sales are good sources for electric clocks. The ARE
getting harder to find in stores. I probably ought to do
a more sophisticated timer built from discrete parts . . .
I'll think about it.
Bob . . .
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: sample Z figures |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 03:51 PM 12/28/2003 +0100, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins
><mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
>
>Hi,
>
>I'm confused, nothing new. There is no example in
>appendix Z of a single alternator, dual battery
>system, is there?
Z-11 plus Z-24 second battery option.
>I'm planning on a subaru conversion, so I'll need
>a constant, automatic source of electricity. I
>don't know of any subaru conversions that have two
>alternators, so two batteries will be a must.
. . . which will provide two battery busses from
which primary and alternate engine power can
be provided.
>I guess I want something like figure 17-6, but
>I don't quite understand how any of this is
>automatic. I'm missing the part where I
>wire my engine computer to both "always hot"
>battery busses, and it always gets juice.
I too am unclear as to how the word "automatic"
fits into your deliberations. Let's not worry about
it. If you have an electrically dependent engine
that can take advantage of independent power sources,
then Figure Z-11 with Z-24 tacked on is the functional
equal to Figure 17-6.
>It all seems clear when I'm reading at the
>coffee table, but when I start to draw my own
>stuff, I realize how little I understood!
Somewhere, I have some exemplar Subaru diagrams.
I'll see if I can incorporate them into a new
Z-figure that accommodates the Suaaru's unique
architecture.
Bob . . .
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Lightweight Panel-mounted AM/FM/CD Player.... |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Richard Tasker <retasker@optonline.net>
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
Player....
>
>At 11:11 AM 12/31/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>
>
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jack Lockamy" <jacklockamy@att.net>
>>
>>Anyone have a recommendation for a lightweight, automotive, AM/FM CD
>>Player with a decent anti-vibration/skip feature?
>>
>>Went shopping at Best Buy recently for such an item and all the ones I
>>looked seemed to weigh 7-20lbs!!! I'm guessing this is because all the
>>'kiddies' want mega watt amplifiers in those Honda Civics and thus the
>>units are HEAVY.
>>
>>
>
> How about scraping the CD player idea . . . you can buy some
> REALLY compact MP3 players to which you can download lots of
> music.
>
Great idea, and what I will probably do, but I assume when you say "you
can download" that you mean either from your own CDs that you have
converted to MP3 or from sites where the music is legitimately free or
from sites like Apple's where you pay per tune. I suspect that not
everyone will understand this is what you mean... :-)
Dick Tasker, RV9A #90573
do not archive
>I bought a 256MB player for Dee for Xmas. It holds
> about 80 tracks. Larger memory devices are available too.
> You can download music tracks to the player from your
> computer via USB cable. Further, the player will serve
> as a portable hard drive to carry data between multiple
> computers.
>
> Dee's unit is about 1" x 3/4" x 3" and runs on one AAA
> cell. Audio quality is good. No moving parts. Very rugged.
> No skip protection needed. Already set up to work in
> the low-level audio world (headphones).
>
> Bob . . .
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Pondering changing fom Z-13 to Z-12 |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Scott Diffenbaugh" <diff@foothill.net>
Hi Bob,
Any idea of the minimum time it may take to resolve the SD8 regulator
overheating concerns?
As you may recall, I spent the last couple of months becoming educated on
Z-13, and was at the point of ordering all of my Z-13 stuff, and finalizing
my panel decisions. Nothing major left to do but the electrical and panel,
so I am thinking of biting the 3 lb and $500 bullet and going with Z-12 and
SD20, since it appears the SD20 problems were anomalies. (I would add a
support brace to the aft end of the SD20 for my peace of mind). I'm
instrument rated and will have full IFR goodies, but in practice I never fly
"hard IFR". Any other downsides to Z-12 besides weight and $? What would
you suggest I do? If you recommend Z-12, be forewarned, the questions will
be forthcoming. See below:
On Z-12, you responded to a previous post that if the bat contactor fails,
the E bus will be operating off of battery only. Can I hook the SD20's B
lead to the battery side of the contactor and it's field to the bat bus?
Would this give me the best of all worlds, ie with contactor closed, retain
autoswitching and all busses? With contactor open, keep the battery charged
while operating on the E bus, ie somewhat the same idea as Z-13? If this is
ok, what would be a reasonable design load for the E bus?
Thank you, your comments are always appreciated. Scott RV7A
Scott Diffenbaugh
diff@foothill.net
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: sample Z figures |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Richard Tasker <retasker@optonline.net>
I, too, want to end up with the same sort of system which I am
designing, but now I am really confused??? My Z24h shows how to add OV
protection to an internally regulated alternator - nothing about a
second battery there???
Dick Tasker, RV9A, 90573
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
>At 03:51 PM 12/28/2003 +0100, you wrote:
>
>
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins
>><mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
>>
>>Hi,
>>
>>I'm confused, nothing new. There is no example in
>>appendix Z of a single alternator, dual battery
>>system, is there?
>>
>>
>
> Z-11 plus Z-24 second battery option.
>
>
>
>
>>I'm planning on a subaru conversion, so I'll need
>>a constant, automatic source of electricity. I
>>don't know of any subaru conversions that have two
>>alternators, so two batteries will be a must.
>>
>>
>
> . . . which will provide two battery busses from
> which primary and alternate engine power can
> be provided.
>
>
>
>
>>I guess I want something like figure 17-6, but
>>I don't quite understand how any of this is
>>automatic. I'm missing the part where I
>>wire my engine computer to both "always hot"
>>battery busses, and it always gets juice.
>>
>>
>
> I too am unclear as to how the word "automatic"
> fits into your deliberations. Let's not worry about
> it. If you have an electrically dependent engine
> that can take advantage of independent power sources,
> then Figure Z-11 with Z-24 tacked on is the functional
> equal to Figure 17-6.
>
>
>
>>It all seems clear when I'm reading at the
>>coffee table, but when I start to draw my own
>>stuff, I realize how little I understood!
>>
>>
>
> Somewhere, I have some exemplar Subaru diagrams.
> I'll see if I can incorporate them into a new
> Z-figure that accommodates the Suaaru's unique
> architecture.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | Lightweight Panel-mounted AM/FM/CD Player.... |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" <Larry@BowenAero.com>
I'm looking at the iRiver stuff. MP3 and radio in one small,
solid-state package. Check it out here:
http://www.iriveramerica.com/products/iFP-390T.asp
-
Larry Bowen
Larry@BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jack Lockamy [mailto:jacklockamy@att.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2003 2:12 PM
> To: AeroElectric List
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Lightweight Panel-mounted
> AM/FM/CD Player....
>
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jack Lockamy"
> --> <jacklockamy@att.net>
>
> Anyone have a recommendation for a lightweight, automotive,
> AM/FM CD Player with a decent anti-vibration/skip feature?
>
> Went shopping at Best Buy recently for such an item and all
> the ones I looked seemed to weigh 7-20lbs!!! I'm guessing
> this is because all the 'kiddies' want mega watt amplifiers
> in those Honda Civics and thus the units are HEAVY.
>
> Jack Lockamy
> Camarillo, CA
>
>
> ============
> Matronics Forums.
> ============
> ============
> http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm
> Search Engine: http://www.matronics.com/search
> ============
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Lightweight Panel-mounted AM/FM/CD Player.... |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" <terry@tcwatson.com>
About the MP3 players...
Can anyone tell me how I would go about converting lectures (or music or
whatever) that is now on audio cassette to MP3 files? Or maybe point me to
a website that would.
Thanks,
Terry
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: sample Z figures |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
>>I'm confused, nothing new. There is no example in
>>appendix Z of a single alternator, dual battery
>>system, is there?
>
> Z-11 plus Z-24 second battery option.
Is that a typo - in my book Figure Z-30 is "Aux Battery and Bus".
Z-24 is "Adding OV Protection to an Internally Regulated Alternator"
This may be something I need as well for the Subaru alternator -
I don't know yet what type of alternator is will have.
>...
>
> Somewhere, I have some exemplar Subaru diagrams.
> I'll see if I can incorporate them into a new
> Z-figure that accommodates the Suaaru's unique
> architecture.
That would be excellent!
Thanks, and Happy New Year (which will be in about 25 minutes here!)
Mickey
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
Message 26
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| Subject: | Lightweight Panel-mounted AM/FM/CD |
Player....
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Richard@Riley.net Player....
First, you have to have a sound card with a line in jack. Then get Music
Match http://www.musicmatch.com
Plug the headphone jack on the cassette deck into the input on the sound
card. Play the lecture, MusicMatch will convert it to MP3, and burn it on
a CD for you.
At 02:34 PM 12/31/03 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" <terry@tcwatson.com>
>
>About the MP3 players...
>
>Can anyone tell me how I would go about converting lectures (or music or
>whatever) that is now on audio cassette to MP3 files? Or maybe point me to
>a website that would.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Terry
>
>
Message 27
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| Subject: | Lightweight Panel-mounted AM/FM/CD Player.... |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" <mprather@spro.net>
If you have a computer at home that has a sound card (most
do), you can use that to digitize the cassettes. You need a
player for the audio cassette, preferably with a line level out.
Connect the line-out to the line-in on the sound card. If you
use a component cassette deck, you will need an RCA to 1/8"
stereo cable to make the connection. Then find some sound
recording software - Windows has a built in one that is a bit
clunky, and start recording when you start the cassette
playback.
Getting the level set so that it is loud enough, but doesn't clip
(distort) may take some experimentation. Also, you will want
to play with the audio sample rate such that you get adequate
quality. The higher the sample rate, the larger the file size of
the recording. Finally, if you have long recordings, you may
want to break them up into sessions/chapters/tracks to make
them easier for the PC to handle.
I think the native file format for windows audio files is a .wav
file. If you record to a .wav file, you will have to convert this to
mp3. I believe that Winamp does this. I think there's a free
vesion of it floating around.
This answer is off the top of my head, so there may be a more
effecient method that someone else has used.
Regards,
Matt-
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Terry Watson"
> <terry@tcwatson.com>
>
> About the MP3 players...
>
> Can anyone tell me how I would go about converting lectures (or music or
> whatever) that is now on audio cassette to MP3 files? Or maybe point me
> to a website that would.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Terry
>
>
Message 28
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| Subject: | Lightweight Panel-mounted AM/FM/CD Player.... |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" <terry@tcwatson.com>
Matt, Richard,
Thanks for the answers to my question about converting audio cassettes to
MP3 files. I think I have everything to do it on one of my back-up
computers so I could do it while I am working.
Thanks again.
Terry
Do not archive
Message 29
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| Subject: | Battery Question (Slightly off-topic) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
Bob,
I have a large branch that overhangs where I park my Jeep (The wife's
Minivan and the Glastar are in the garage). I can't get reach the branch. My
friend says that I can cut it off by using a battery and a nichrome wire
thrown over the branch.
Question: What size battery can I throw over the branch? It's 50 feet up in
the air! I've tried throwing the battery and the wire over it but the RG
17Ah battery you suggest hardly makes it ten feet. My arm hurts. What do you
suggest?
Regards and Happy New Year
Eric M. Jones
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Battery Question (Slightly off-topic) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Carlos Sa <carlosfsa@yahoo.com>
Throw a rope first, attach the other end to the battery, etc...
do not archive
--- "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net> wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message
posted by: "Eric
M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
>
> Bob,
>
> I have a large branch that overhangs where I park my Jeep (The wife's
> Minivan and the Glastar are in the garage). I can't get reach the branch. My
> friend says that I can cut it off by using a battery and a nichrome wire
> thrown over the branch.
>
> Question: What size battery can I throw over the branch? It's 50 feet up in
> the air! I've tried throwing the battery and the wire over it but the RG
> 17Ah battery you suggest hardly makes it ten feet. My arm hurts. What do you
> suggest?
>
> Regards and Happy New Year
> Eric M. Jones
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 31
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| Subject: | Lightweight Panel-mounted AM/FM/CD Player.... |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Kevin Klinefelter" <kevann@gte.net>
Has anyone installed a satellite radio unit in their plane?
Kevin
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Battery Question (Slightly off-topic) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tom & Cathy Ervin" <tcervin@valkyrie.net>
Finally a good question has been asked! Climb up on the Jeep...with clean
boots and throw the wire over.
Do not archive
Tom in Ohio
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carlos Sa" <carlosfsa@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery Question (Slightly off-topic)
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Carlos Sa <carlosfsa@yahoo.com>
>
> Throw a rope first, attach the other end to the battery, etc...
> do not archive
>
>
> --- "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net> wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List
message posted by: "Eric
> M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
> >
> > Bob,
> >
> > I have a large branch that overhangs where I park my Jeep (The wife's
> > Minivan and the Glastar are in the garage). I can't get reach the
branch. My
> > friend says that I can cut it off by using a battery and a nichrome wire
> > thrown over the branch.
> >
> > Question: What size battery can I throw over the branch? It's 50 feet up
in
> > the air! I've tried throwing the battery and the wire over it but the RG
> > 17Ah battery you suggest hardly makes it ten feet. My arm hurts. What do
you
> > suggest?
> >
> > Regards and Happy New Year
> > Eric M. Jones
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 33
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| Subject: | Manual master switch |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: klehman@albedo.net
> What do you do if the starter contactor sticks? How
> do you drive all the fat wires to "max cold" in anticipation
> of an unplanned arrival with the earth?
How come I never seem to hear about automotive starters getting stuck
on? Does the accelerating flywheel more forcibly disengage the starter
gear and contacts on those? I've had several automotive starter failures
but don't know anyone who has had a stuck on one. Anyway a small battery
won't last too long if it does stick which puts the risk of fire pretty
much up to what the battery does. Since you know of at least one RG
battery that melted in an airplane that may be a concern. Are Lycoming
starters more prone to sticking than automotive units or just more
talked about when it happens?
Most of us have seen cars cranked until dead without a battery fire or
meltdown... I'm talking about cranking till dead not a shorted battery
terminal situation where all of the energy is heating the battery.
I have questioned the crash scenario benefit of battery contactors as
well. It would seem that most crashes occur during a planned takeoff or
landing when there is very little chance of the master switch being off
at impact anyway. Many times I've read reports where the pilot turned
off the master while the dust was settling as he exited the wreckage.
Granted they probably did not have a live fat wire on the starter but in
the big picture I'm not sure that justifies an additional contactor. If
I add all the features of Z-14 to my efi requirements, it can start to
get cumbersome with for example at least 7 relays/contactors active
during a start. Main efi power relay, fuel pump relay, starter solenoid,
starter contactor, two battery contactors, and a crossfeed contactor. In
addition there would be two relays for alternator ov protection and
another for the second fuel pump and a couple for the redundant efi that
will all take up space and add weight...
A modified scheme with 17AH battery and a small non crank participating
battery would be cheaper and slightly simpler but would be heavier than
2 5AH batteries and a touch less versatile. I haven't decided which way
to go yet.
I think I understand the Z diagrams and I am not criticising them or
suggesting there are any shortcomings in them. I am willing to accept a
bit more (informed) risk in exchange for simplification, weight
reduction, and less components. And my powerplant is not a standard
installation.
>snip
> Why did you cripple some perfectly good alternators? What is
> the advantage of slowing down an alternator that runs most
> happily at high rpm? The BIG downside for generators was low
> output at idle and taxi RPMs but if you put a smaller pulley
> on them, the brushes would wear faster. When alternators
> came along, all the downsides went away but you have brought
> them back . . .
Well the single v belt pulleys had to be replaced with multi v belt
pulleys anyway. Then there is the warm and fuzzy of not running either
alternator faster than it spins in its oem application, which means they
have a better chance of remaining as reliable as they were in the oem
application in my opinion. These are stock alternators with no upgraded
parts or balancing. Unlike a car I don't need a lot of current at idle
although in fact my alternator speed at idle will still be higher than
in a car as I'm restricted to about 1200 engine rpm (600 prop) for the
health of my prop gearbox. I don't perceive any crippling for my
application.
I do appreciate the comments from everyone.
Ken
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Lightweight Panel-mounted AM/FM/CD Player.... |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Darwin N. Barrie" <ktlkrn@cox.net>
My neighbor has one in his Lancair IV and loves it. I think he'd get rid of
a Comm before the SR.
Darwin N. Barrie
Chandler AZ
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Klinefelter" <kevann@gte.net>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Lightweight Panel-mounted AM/FM/CD
Player....
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Kevin Klinefelter"
<kevann@gte.net>
>
>
> Has anyone installed a satellite radio unit in their plane?
> Kevin
>
>
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: Battery Question (Slightly off-topic) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Robert McCallum <robert.mccallum2@sympatico.ca>
Eric M. Jones wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
>
>Bob,
>
>I have a large branch that overhangs where I park my Jeep (The wife's
>Minivan and the Glastar are in the garage). I can't get reach the branch. My
>friend says that I can cut it off by using a battery and a nichrome wire
>thrown over the branch.
>
>Question: What size battery can I throw over the branch? It's 50 feet up in
>the air! I've tried throwing the battery and the wire over it but the RG
>17Ah battery you suggest hardly makes it ten feet. My arm hurts. What do you
>suggest?
>
Some strong liniment, a good rest, and more practice.
>
>Regards and Happy New Year
>Eric M. Jones
>
>
>
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Have a happy healthy New Year
Bob McC
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: Battery Question (Slightly off-topic) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jim Sower <canarder@frontiernet.net>
Spring $25 for a 15' pruning saw/shear (don't worry, you'll use it a lot). You
probably
have a ladder that will get you within 15' of the offending branch. Put the tree
between
you and the branch as you cut.
MOVE THE JEEP BEFORE YOU CUT :o))
>
> >I have a large branch that overhangs where I park my Jeep (The wife's
> >Minivan and the Glastar are in the garage). I can't get reach the branch. My
> >friend says that I can cut it off by using a battery and a nichrome wire
> >thrown over the branch.
> >
> >Question: What size battery can I throw over the branch? It's 50 feet up in
> >the air! I've tried throwing the battery and the wire over it but the RG
> >17Ah battery you suggest hardly makes it ten feet. My arm hurts. What do you
> >suggest?
> >
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