---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 01/02/04: 45 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:42 AM - Slow Starter (Fiveonepw@aol.com) 2. 06:11 AM - Re: Slow Starter (Werner Schneider) 3. 06:13 AM - Re: internal regulator? (Jim Stone) 4. 06:20 AM - Re: 17-5 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 06:21 AM - Re: internal regulator? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 06:22 AM - Re: Sky-Tec starter (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 06:27 AM - Re: Ground block (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 06:32 AM - Re: tools (N1deltawhiskey@aol.com) 9. 06:32 AM - Re: audio isolation amplifier (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 06:36 AM - Re: Noise suppressing intercom (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 11. 06:39 AM - Re: Z-14 modification (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 12. 06:42 AM - Re: MP3 input to panel mounted intercom (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 13. 07:00 AM - Re: SD-8 Voltage (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 14. 07:02 AM - Re: Sky-Tec starter (Jim Stone) 15. 07:40 AM - Manual master switch and starters (klehman@albedo.net) 16. 07:45 AM - Circuit protection and grounds (Hi There) 17. 07:59 AM - Re: Circuit protection and grounds (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 18. 08:04 AM - Re: Manual master switch and starters (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 19. 08:07 AM - Re: Sky-Tec starter (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 20. 08:16 AM - Re: Slow Starter (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 21. 08:17 AM - Re: Fw: Skymap III to Navaid and E.I. Fuel (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 22. 08:19 AM - Re: ARINC X,Y,Z outputs (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 23. 08:40 AM - Re: Thanks Bob (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 24. 08:55 AM - Re: Over-voltage, etc (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 25. 09:01 AM - Re: Fw: Skymap III to Navaid and E.I. Fuel Flow (Richard E. Tasker) 26. 09:14 AM - tip-up canopy C-624 platsic strip or nylok nuts (thomas a. sargent) 27. 09:22 AM - Re: 17-5 (John Schroeder) 28. 09:52 AM - Re: crimpers (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 29. 09:52 AM - Figure Z-11 (Larry Landucci) 30. 10:03 AM - Re: ARINC X,Y,Z outputs (Jerzy Krasinski) 31. 10:11 AM - Cut the tree branch (Fergus Kyle) 32. 10:32 AM - Re: Fw: Skymap III to Navaid and E.I. Fuel FlowInstrument (Steve Hamer) 33. 10:56 AM - Re: Fw: Skymap III to Navaid and E.I. Fuel FlowInstrument (Neal A. Dillman) 34. 11:36 AM - Re: Battery Question (Slightly off-topic) (Fiveonepw@aol.com) 35. 11:49 AM - Re: Manual master switch (Charlie Kuss) 36. 12:21 PM - Re: Manual master switch (Dan Branstrom) 37. 12:56 PM - Re: Over-voltage, etc (klehman@albedo.net) 38. 01:29 PM - Re: Over-voltage, etc (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 39. 06:19 PM - King radio connectors (Hi There) 40. 06:40 PM - Re: Slow Starter (Jim Sower) 41. 08:51 PM - Re: King radio connectors (Neal A. Dillman) 42. 10:57 PM - Visio Symbols (Chad Robinson) 43. 11:13 PM - Re: MP3 input to panel mounted intercom (Charlie & Tupper England) 44. 11:15 PM - Re: Visio Symbols (Steve Richard) 45. 11:33 PM - batteries and second alternator choice (Troy Scott) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:42:58 AM PST US From: Fiveonepw@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Slow Starter --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com Howdy listers- My low compression O-320 has an original Delco-Remy boat anchor starter I wanted to retain for CG (and $!) reasons, and I am using one of the 17 Ah Panasonic batteries. Spun nicely with the plugs out, but yesterday I put in the plugs and it will barely turn over- the blades almost stopping on each compression stroke. Battery voltage shows 12.63. Anyone else used this combination successfully or am I going to have to send B&C some more $$$?! Thanks from The PossumWorks in TN Mark ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:11:28 AM PST US From: "Werner Schneider" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Slow Starter --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Werner Schneider" Mark, check your engine to ground connection, I had a similar experience with a SkyTech starter. On the engine housing I did not remove all the paint, that then grounded my engine through the throttle control, they got hot?? I then used a jumper cable direct from the battery to the exhaust and it started immediately. I did then know where to search! Check and let us know Werner ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Slow Starter > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com > > Howdy listers- > > My low compression O-320 has an original Delco-Remy boat anchor starter I > wanted to retain for CG (and $!) reasons, and I am using one of the 17 Ah > Panasonic batteries. Spun nicely with the plugs out, but yesterday I put in the > plugs and it will barely turn over- the blades almost stopping on each compression > stroke. Battery voltage shows 12.63. Anyone else used this combination > successfully or am I going to have to send B&C some more $$$?! > > Thanks from The PossumWorks in TN > Mark > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:13:25 AM PST US From: "Jim Stone" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: internal regulator? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" Troy, You are right. You will need to pick up a regulator and crowbar protection. The folks at B&C have a nice unit called an LR3C for 228.00. See the like below. Do a search for more info, there has been plenty of post on subject. Jim http://www.bandcspecialty.com/parts.html -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Troy Scott Subject: AeroElectric-List: internal regulator? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Troy Scott" Gentlemen, The alternator that came on my Demars Aero Lycoming is a B&C Part# L-60, serial# 07504010. I'm thinking this probably does NOT have an internal regulator, right? Regards, Troy Scott tscott1217@bellsouth.net Glasair Super IISRG, N360TS == == == == ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:20:51 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 17-5 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 06:57 AM 1/3/2004 -0600, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Troy Scott" > > >Gentlemen, > >First, I apologize for so many posts in one day. I've really been studying, >and that's generated a lot of questions! > >For my situation, I think probably the 17-5 (Z-14) drawing, "Dual >Alternator, Dual Battery Electrical Systems" seems most appropriate. I >don't see the "essentials buss" in this scheme. Am I just missing it?, or >is no longer really necessary with this much redundancy? The "essential bus" is going to be renamed "endurance bus" in future revisions. The philosophy for this architecture is to provide (1) dual power pathways to items necessary for comfortable completion of flight and (2) easy configuration management for achieving minimum power consumption in a battery-only operation. When add a second electrical system both points become non-issues and the e-bus is not necessary. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:21:25 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: internal regulator? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 06:48 AM 1/3/2004 -0600, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Troy Scott" > > >Gentlemen, > >The alternator that came on my Demars Aero Lycoming is a B&C Part# L-60, >serial# 07504010. I'm thinking this probably does NOT have an internal >regulator, right? No B&C alternator comes with built in regulator. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:22:44 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Sky-Tec starter --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 06:48 AM 1/3/2004 -0600, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Troy Scott" > > >Gentlemen, > >The starter that came on my Demars Aero Lycoming is a Sky-Tec Model >#149-12PM. I'm guessing that the "PM" means "permanent magnet", and that I >should probably add Bob's Fig.Z-22, "Fix for 'run-on' in starters with >permanent magnet motors" to my electrical system plans. Thoughts? If getting the best starter wasn't an option for me, then adding the run-on eliminator would be a good idea. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:27:23 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ground block --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 11:25 PM 1/1/2004 -0700, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Darwin N. Barrie" > >I was preparing to order a ground block from B&C and noticed they are out >of stock till "late January." Anyone have another source for these? These are a proprietary design offered by nobody else that I'm aware of. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:32:04 AM PST US From: N1deltawhiskey@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: tools --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: N1deltawhiskey@aol.com Troy, Not sure of the items listed below. I have installed the Dynon EFIS and Apollo GX60 and SL70, and cannot even imagine what the Dynon "installation kit" consist of. For all of these, the only tool I have needed is the B&C crimper for the machined head D-sub pins, an insertion/removal tool, and the appropriate D-sub mating connectors. With the exception of the crimper, the other items are available from B&C and some electronic parts suppliers. Doug In a message dated 1/1/2004 12:13:58 PM Pacific Standard Time, tscott1217@bellsouth.net writes: > I see that the Aeroelectric Connection/B&C has a tool kit for the Dynon EFIS > installation. That's really cool. Now I also need some other tools called > out for the SL30 and the BMA EFIS One, etc.. Here is the list of all the > tools my installation books say I need so far: > > Dynon Kit from AeroElectric/B&C > Daniels Manufacturing AF8M (for DSub) > Astro Tool part# 615708 crimp tool > Astro Tool part# 616356 positioner > ITT Cannon part# 274-7006-000 (Desc. CIET-20HD) insertion tool > ITT Cannon part# 995-0001-585 (Desc. M22520/1-01) regular duty crimp tool > ITT Cannon part# 995-0001-244 (Desc. TH25) regular duty locator tool > > QUESTIONS (always): > Are some of these redundant? > What do I actually need to buy? ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:32:41 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: audio isolation amplifier --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 10:46 PM 1/2/2004 -0600, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Troy Scott" > > >I've seen the "Audio Isolation Amplifier Project" in the catalog section of >the 'Connection. Can someone please explain to what it's for? It's used just as the wiring diagrams in the instructions suggest: See http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9009/9009-700D.pdf It provides a handy means by which multiple audio sources can be brought together into the headphones system and allow independent control of gain to balance volume of the various sources. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:36:14 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Noise suppressing intercom --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" There ARE things intercom manufacturers could do. Micro-controllers are dirt cheap nowadays. One could devise signal processing software to (1) concentrate on voice characteristics as signals to be passed along and (2) measure the ration of (1) with respect to cabin noise to decide when squelch should be open or closed. This kind of intercom would not even have a squelch control knob . . . it would be constantly processing cabin ambient (including your voice) for optimum filtering and squelch threshold setting. At 12:33 PM 1/1/2004 -0800, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Chalmers" > > >There is an intercom that does something similar - see >http://www.flighttech.com I have been using it for 100 hours and it works. >No squelch to set and it filters out engine noise even when you're >talking. It does add some minor distortion at times but I'll take it over >fiddling with a squelch control any day. Note that when you press the PTT >it turns off the noise cancelling and pipes you voice direct to the radio >- then you can really hear how much background noise it was suppressing. I >asked them whether they could leave the noise suppression engaged during >PTT and they said they are thinking about it. My only complaint with the >unit is the tiny connector which makes wiring a challenge. > >Dave Yup, they don't tell us what kind of technology is used to achieve performance . . . but this is exactly the design philosophy every intercom manufacturer should be striving for. Their prices are attractive too. I think this is a product very much worth considering. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:39:44 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-14 modification --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 03:26 PM 1/1/2004 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: TimRhod@aol.com > >Bob: Im building an all electric velocity ( duel electronic ignition >and all electric panel) I am going to use Z-14 and I am thinking about the >following modification. I want to have an avionics bus; feed from the >main bus >through a diode to the avionics bus. Another feed from the auxillary bus >through a diode to the avionics bus. No avionics master switches. Then a >feed from >each battery bus through a switch that can select which battery I want to run >off of. None, Main, or Aux. This gives me quad feed capabilities to my >flight insturments and radios. Any problem with this arrangement that I >am not >seeing. I don't see that this is necessary but it's your airplane. Z-14 as published with modern alternators and batteries already offers 100x the system reliability of contemporary light aircraft. But if more options floats your boat, have at it. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:42:11 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: MP3 input to panel mounted intercom --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 02:17 PM 1/1/2004 -0600, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charles Brame > > >Bob, et.al., > >I want to use an MP3 player through my SL-10MS intercom. The intercom >has stereo music input wiring, but I am a loss as to how to wire a MP3 >player to it. > >Most of the MP3 players (and CD players) I have looked at only have an >output for headphones. As I understand it, you should not hook headphone >or speaker output directly to an intercom input. > >How should a generic MP3 player, or any other music source, be connected >to a panel intercom system? If your panel intercom is does not feature a "music input" then it's going to take some experimentation . . . or you can add a audio isolation/mixer amplifier to your system as described in: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9009/9009-700D.pdf Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:00:16 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 Voltage --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 08:04 AM 1/1/2004 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Steve Glasgow" > > >I=92m flying with a basic Z-8 system (one 40 amp main and one SD-8) in my >RV-8. My ESS BUS is pretty much loaded up to the maximum, especially when >transmitting. There's no particular advantage to providing enough head-room in alternator sizing to cover intermittent loads like transmitting or trim motor ops. >When I check the SD-8, the load is almost always in the top yellow band, >which I would think is quite normal because of the ESS BUS load. The >problem is that sometimes if the load gets to high the LOW voltage light >comes on and system voltage drops to around 12.2 volts. Reducing the load >will cause the voltage to increase and the LOW voltage light goes out. > > >I this normal? What I mean is, as the load goes up above a certain value, >does the voltage produced start to drop? Yup, every alternator will do just that irrespective of it's size. Overload it and the voltage will sag. What stuff is powered from the e-bus? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:02:19 AM PST US From: "Jim Stone" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Sky-Tec starter --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" Bob, 1. Does B&C offer a run-on eliminator for PM starters? 2. Where would you locate the current limiter or shunt? I'm building a Rocket, and using the firewall ground terminal pass-thru that B&C sells. I was thinking I would have fewer wires penetrating the firewall if I located it on the C/p side near the firewall ground terminal and connecting it with a short jumper of say #4 or #6 wire. I've seen shunts on both sides of the FW. 3. The flexible battery cable that B&C sells in custom lengths, is it a generic cable that may also be used in marine applications? Is the conductor copper with a tin coating? Or is it aircraft wire with Tefzel insulation. 4. Since all the interconnections between batteries and contactors are short runs, could I use #4 wire? (I'm using #2 wire from aft batteries to FW.) Thanks Jim -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Sky-Tec starter --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 06:48 AM 1/3/2004 -0600, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Troy Scott" > > >Gentlemen, > >The starter that came on my Demars Aero Lycoming is a Sky-Tec Model >#149-12PM. I'm guessing that the "PM" means "permanent magnet", and that I >should probably add Bob's Fig.Z-22, "Fix for 'run-on' in starters with >permanent magnet motors" to my electrical system plans. Thoughts? If getting the best starter wasn't an option for me, then adding the run-on eliminator would be a good idea. Bob . . . == == == == ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:40:15 AM PST US From: klehman@albedo.net Subject: AeroElectric-List: Manual master switch and starters --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: klehman@albedo.net Hmmm - Yes - but just to be clear, are any of the Lycoming/Continental starters like my very old tractor where there is no internal solenoid that assists starter gear movement and no internal contacts? That arrangement would necessitate an external contactor that I would think almost has to be more prone to stick than internal contacts. It seems the internal ones get strong mechanical feedback to help disengage the solenoid and contacts when the engine has started. thanks Ken > It's not the starter that sticks but the starter contactor. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:45:01 AM PST US From: Hi There Subject: AeroElectric-List: Circuit protection and grounds --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Hi There Now I thought I had this figured out after reading the Connection, but after going over the archives I'm not sure. I'm trying to calculate the wire sizes for several lights on my plane. I have a metal plane but was still planning on using a ground wire going back to the ground buss for the wingtip strobes, landing lights and position lights. Calculating the wires going out there is pretty easy, but I'm a bit stuck on the common ground wire size. Since the ground isn't really protected by the fuses I think all I have to do is size it for the load attached to that ground wire. Correct????? landing lights 5a strobe power 2 a position light 2a So I think I need a ground wire for a 10 amp load. Am I just out in left field here? Thanks Cam --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:59:49 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Circuit protection and grounds --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 07:44 AM 1/2/2004 -0800, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Hi There > >Now I thought I had this figured out after reading the Connection, but >after going over the archives I'm not sure. > >I'm trying to calculate the wire sizes for several lights on my plane. I >have a metal plane but was still planning on using a ground wire going >back to the ground buss for the wingtip strobes, landing lights and >position lights. You can do this but since lights are neither strong antagonists nor victims, local grounds are fine. > Calculating the wires going out there is pretty easy, but I'm a bit > stuck on the common ground wire size. Since the ground isn't really > protected by the fuses I think all I have to do is size it for the load > attached to that ground wire. Correct????? > >landing lights 5a >strobe power 2 a >position light 2a > >So I think I need a ground wire for a 10 amp load. "A" ground wire? If you choose to run grounds independent of the airframe, EACH accessory should have it's own ground wire. Ground wires are the same size as power wires. Using a common ground creates a single point of failure for all accessories. I'd strongly recommend local grounds for these items. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:04:34 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Manual master switch and starters --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 10:42 AM 1/2/2004 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: klehman@albedo.net > >Hmmm - Yes - but just to be clear, are any of the Lycoming/Continental >starters like my very old tractor where there is no internal solenoid >that assists starter gear movement and no internal contacts? ALL Prestolite style starters for Lyc's use Bendix drives for indirect engagement of pinion gear and have no internal contactor for power control. > That >arrangement would necessitate an external contactor that I would think >almost has to be more prone to stick than internal contacts. A contactor is a contactor be it internal or external. Moving parts that carry the starter motor current are subject to welding if operated outside their design envelope. > It seems >the internal ones get strong mechanical feedback to help disengage the >solenoid and contacts when the engine has started. >thanks Depends on the design. Contactors and direct engagement pinion gears do not have to share a common disengagement spring. This is the case on B&C's starters. We've had customers stick the contactor such that the motor continued to run after the engine started and the pinion was retracted. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:07:29 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Sky-Tec starter --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 10:01 AM 1/2/2004 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" > >Bob, >1. Does B&C offer a run-on eliminator for PM starters? S704-1 relay >2. Where would you locate the current limiter or shunt? I'm building a >Rocket, and using the firewall ground terminal pass-thru that B&C sells. >I was thinking I would have fewer wires penetrating the firewall if I >located it on the C/p side near the firewall ground terminal and >connecting it with a short jumper of say #4 or #6 wire. I've seen shunts >on both sides of the FW. Limiter and shunt would mount as close as practical to starter contactor on engine side of firewall. >3. The flexible battery cable that B&C sells in custom lengths, is it a >generic cable that may also be used in marine applications? Is the >conductor copper with a tin coating? Or is it aircraft wire with Tefzel >insulation. It's welding cable. No tin coating on conductors. Welding cable is preferred for its flexibility. >4. Since all the interconnections between batteries and contactors are >short runs, could I use #4 wire? (I'm using #2 wire from aft batteries >to FW.) Yes. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 08:16:47 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Slow Starter --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 07:42 AM 1/2/2004 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com > >Howdy listers- > >My low compression O-320 has an original Delco-Remy boat anchor starter I >wanted to retain for CG (and $!) reasons, and I am using one of the 17 Ah >Panasonic batteries. Spun nicely with the plugs out, but yesterday I put >in the >plugs and it will barely turn over- the blades almost stopping on each >compression >stroke. Battery voltage shows 12.63. Anyone else used this combination >successfully or am I going to have to send B&C some more $$$?! You need DATA to tell you where to look next. Measure VOLTAGE at both battery terminals and then at starter terminals while cranking. This is best done with an analog meter . . . digital meters will jump around a lot and not give you a good sense of what's really happening. See figure 2-3 in 'Connection for a description of cranking circuit analysis. Somewhere in the system you're going to find a "hole in the dike" where most of all your cranking electrons are leaking. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 08:17:39 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Flow Instrument Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fw: Skymap III to Navaid and E.I. Fuel Flow Instrument --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Flow Instrument At 02:42 PM 1/1/2004 -0800, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Steve Hamer" > > >Does anyone know if it's okay to split the "data out" wire from the Skymap >GPS to feed info to the Navaid and the E.I. fuel flow gauge. If we're talking about RS-232 serial data, it's an uncommon signal source that won't drive two or more signal loads quite nicely. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 08:19:33 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ARINC X,Y,Z outputs --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 03:24 PM 1/1/2004 -0600, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jerzy Krasinski > > > Many NAV devices like RMI or HSI require input from "any slaved >magnetic compass with ARINC X,Y,Z outputs". >I guess these are probably signals from a compass synchro, and the >question is if the synchro is 24V/400Hz or 110V/400Hz. Or are these >signals something different? I think that's right. When they call out three signal paths, it's usually the "three-phase" stator signal from a synchro. Two phase will usually be called sine/cosine. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 08:40:24 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Thanks Bob --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 10:45 AM 1/1/2004 -0800, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: David Aronson > >Bob Nuckolls III: >Thanks for another year of tremendous support. I am one of the very >challenged experimental aircraft builders who, without your guidance and >educational resources (seminar, book, website and list), would never have >ventured as far. My wife and others look at the work that has been >accomplished, with your help, and ask "you didn't do that by yourself did >you"? Thank you Bob for your efforts meking our aviation efforts safer >and more effective. God bless you and Happy New Year! >Dave Aronson Thank you sir . . . and many others who have offered appreciative comments. I couldn't do it if it wasn't fun. I'm not going to have the time/opportunity to build one myself. However, I'm looking forward to being a participant in perhaps thousands of airplanes with other builders. After professionally slogging through the quagmire that is certified aviation, you folks are a validation for me of the best that aviation CAN be. All-in-all I think a most satisfactory deal for all concerned. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 08:55:17 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Over-voltage, etc --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 09:25 AM 1/1/2004 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: klehman@albedo.net > >I wouldn't think that a starter-engaged light is essential for a >personal aircraft. In most cases a glance at the voltmeter or ammeter as >soon as idle is achieved should show whether the battery is charging. >Most won't be if the starter is still spinning. If one chooses to leave diagnostics tools off the panel and go with a low-voltage warning light as the primary electrical system instrumentation for flight, then a "starter engaged" light is even more of a good deal. Beech put them on the Sierra (probably a $high$ option on the Sundowner). >However if the starter is spinning madly and one opens the battery >contactor, is there any chance that the starter is now a generator that >could feed a short overvoltage to the rest of the electrical system? No, all starters have over-run clutches of one kind or another. If they did not, the starter's life after getting the engine running would be measured in milliseconds. The armature already spins pretty fast to get the necessary horsepower to crank the engine at 200-400 rpm. Once the engine starts, a back-driven armature would be spun up to several times it's design speed. This usually trows armature wires out of the slots and jams the motor or strips gear teeth. The reason that some pilots have reported first notification of starter contactor sticking by observations of other instruments is the fact that NO LOAD current on these horribly inefficient motors can be on the order of 50 amps. This is a significant drain on the electrical system at ramp idle speeds for engine. A starter engaged light is, for the time and dollars spent, a really good deal. Keeping your engine tuned to start in a few blades combined with periodic battery maintenance is a better deal. Contactors run long and happy in a system that is maintained well and performs well. > My >solid state electronics experience has been that bad things happen when >the stabilizing effect of a battery is removed from a system. Probably >part of the reason that I'm leery of battery contactors... How does your experience relate to the history of battery contactor performance in aircraft? In 40 years of hammer'n on airplanes, the ov events I've worked that damaged airplane accessories were due to poorly designed or non-existent ov protection systems. In my experience, a battery contactor failure has never been root cause of a damage scenario to other components in the system. Well considered design supported by good maintenance is the key to long and satisfactory service life. Certified ships are seldom blessed with either. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 09:01:36 AM PST US From: "Richard E. Tasker" Instrument Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fw: Skymap III to Navaid and E.I. Fuel Flow Instrument --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Richard E. Tasker" Instrument If you are confused by the wording of Bob's answer (as I was upon first reading), what he is saying is, yes it is almost guaranteed to be okay. Dick Tasker, RV9A #90573 Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Flow Instrument > >At 02:42 PM 1/1/2004 -0800, you wrote: > > >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Steve Hamer" >> >> >>Does anyone know if it's okay to split the "data out" wire from the Skymap >>GPS to feed info to the Navaid and the E.I. fuel flow gauge. >> >> > > If we're talking about RS-232 serial data, it's an uncommon > signal source that won't drive two or more signal loads > quite nicely. > > Bob . . . > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 09:14:59 AM PST US From: "thomas a. sargent" Subject: AeroElectric-List: tip-up canopy C-624 platsic strip or nylok nuts --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "thomas a. sargent" I just drilled my tip-up canopy to the canopy frame. The plans call for the screws that go thru the side rails and the plexiglass to be screwed into the C-624 plastic strip along the inside of the frame. Seems to me that just some washers and nuts would be better. Does any one have an opinion on this? Thanks, -- Tom Sargent RV-6A QB ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 09:22:34 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 17-5 From: John Schroeder --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Schroeder Hi Troy - We are using this system in our Lancair ES. With the ability to crossfeed power under any combination of failures, I don't think it is necessary. With any failure, it is prudent to reduce loads where it is feasible under the condition of flight you are in. Cheers, John ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 09:52:12 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: crimpers --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 03:31 PM 1/1/2004 -0700, you wrote: >I have sent this to the list I thought but apparently I don't know how to. > Can you use the Hex Crimpers sold by B&C to crimp the round amp BNC > connectors? Yes. See http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/bnccrimp.pdf Bob . . . -------------------------------------------- ( A beginning of the end is marked by ) ( replacement of experience and common ) ( sense with policy and procedures. ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) -------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 09:52:12 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Figure Z-11 From: Larry Landucci --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Larry Landucci Bob; In the generic electrical system schematic (Fig Z-11), I don't understand the advantage of the 5A breaker between the master switch and the LR-3 controller plus a fuselink at the main power bus. In the schematic supplied by B&C for the LR-3 a 5A breaker is shown between the main power bus and the master and no fuselink is used. I was considering using a 5A fuse instead of the breaker and going with the B&C schematic -- any disadvantage? Thanks for your time, LarryL ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 10:03:35 AM PST US From: Jerzy Krasinski Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ARINC X,Y,Z outputs --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jerzy Krasinski Thank you Bob, Jerzy Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > I think that's right. When they call out three signal > paths, it's usually the "three-phase" stator signal > from a synchro. Two phase will usually be called sine/cosine. > > Bob . . . > > > > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 10:11:34 AM PST US From: "Fergus Kyle" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Cut the tree branch --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" Eric Jones: >I have a large branch that overhangs where I park my Jeep (The wife's >Minivan and the Glastar are in the garage). I can't get reach the branch. My >friend says that I can cut it off by using a battery and a nichrome wire >thrown over the branch. Eric, Yes, I know. These tasks are onerous at best: PREPARATION 1. Move the Jeep until the falling branch will miss it. 2. Jack up the rear wheels. 3. Remove the nearest wheel and substitute a 1ft diam reel. 4 Buy 40 survivor saws (the small cylindrical pullsaws) and join into one. PROCEDURE 5. Use a lead weight to guide fishing line over the branch, and join saw to one end. 6. With a stout rope joining the ends of [4], coil this onto the wheel. 7. Start jeep in neutral. 8. Taking care to utilize only the saw portion, shift into first, then alternate in reverse. 9. When you hear a cracking noise, ensure you are in first and kick out the jack. CLEANUP 10. Apply the 40 saws to eBAY, and sweep up the sawdust. 11. Simply add a fireplace to the living room and burn the branch. Ferg PS: A warm and successful 2004 to you. ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 10:32:22 AM PST US From: "Steve Hamer" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fw: Skymap III to Navaid and E.I. Fuel FlowInstrument --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Steve Hamer" The more I read, the confusder I get! Yes it is RS232 serial data according to my manuals. For the benefit of my electrically challenged mind, please check one: 0 Yes, it will work 0 No, it won't work Thanks, Steve > If you are confused by the wording of Bob's answer (as I was upon first > reading), what he is saying is, yes it is almost guaranteed to be okay. > > Dick Tasker, RV9A #90573 > > Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Flow Instrument > > > >At 02:42 PM 1/1/2004 -0800, you wrote: > > > > > >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Steve Hamer" > >> > >> > >>Does anyone know if it's okay to split the "data out" wire from the Skymap > >>GPS to feed info to the Navaid and the E.I. fuel flow gauge. > >> > >> > > > > If we're talking about RS-232 serial data, it's an uncommon > > signal source that won't drive two or more signal loads > > quite nicely. > > > > Bob . . . > > > > ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 10:56:58 AM PST US From: "Neal A. Dillman" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fw: Skymap III to Navaid and E.I. Fuel FlowInstrument --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Neal A. Dillman" Steve, Bob and I both said (roughly) the same thing: Yes, it will work. Regards, Neal Steve Hamer wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Steve Hamer" > >The more I read, the confusder I get! Yes it is RS232 serial data according >to my manuals. For the benefit of my electrically challenged mind, please >check one: > >0 Yes, it will work > >0 No, it won't work > >Thanks, > >Steve > > > > >>If you are confused by the wording of Bob's answer (as I was upon first >>reading), what he is saying is, yes it is almost guaranteed to be okay. >> >>Dick Tasker, RV9A #90573 >> >>Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >> >> >> >>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" >>> >>> > Flow Instrument > > >>>At 02:42 PM 1/1/2004 -0800, you wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Steve Hamer" >>>> >>>> > > > >>>>Does anyone know if it's okay to split the "data out" wire from the >>>> >>>> >Skymap > > >>>>GPS to feed info to the Navaid and the E.I. fuel flow gauge. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> If we're talking about RS-232 serial data, it's an uncommon >>> signal source that won't drive two or more signal loads >>> quite nicely. >>> >>> Bob . . . >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > > > ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 11:36:04 AM PST US From: Fiveonepw@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery Question (Slightly off-topic) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com > >Throw a rope first, attach the other end to the battery, etc... > >do not archive Better yet, get an RV-9, pack the battery & wire in it, then when nobody's looking..... Mark- should be out finishing the plane instead of this!! 8-) p.s. Remember your -9 would have to be a slider, cause you'd never get the tipper opened! p.p.s Even better yet, while inverted, air carefully, then pull the BRS release handle.... p.p.p.s. ....all whilst accompanied by Wagners "Flight of the Valkerie" via MP3 at "maximum volume"! ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 11:49:26 AM PST US From: Charlie Kuss Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Manual master switch --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss Ken, While a stuck starter is not common on cars, it does happen. My first experience with this was in the late 70s. I was a mechanic at a large Dodge dealership. The starter stayed engaged after the engine started. (Winter time, 2200 rpm start) Upon disassembly, the innards looked like an explosion in a copper wire factory! I've seen this phenomenon occur on all makes of cars. Lucas failures tended to result in severe fires. (insert favorite Lucas joke here) :-) Charlie Kuss >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: klehman@albedo.net > >> What do you do if the starter contactor sticks? How >> do you drive all the fat wires to "max cold" in anticipation >> of an unplanned arrival with the earth? > >How come I never seem to hear about automotive starters getting stuck >on? Does the accelerating flywheel more forcibly disengage the starter >gear and contacts on those? I've had several automotive starter failures >but don't know anyone who has had a stuck on one. Anyway a small battery >won't last too long if it does stick which puts the risk of fire pretty >much up to what the battery does. Since you know of at least one RG >battery that melted in an airplane that may be a concern. Are Lycoming >starters more prone to sticking than automotive units or just more >talked about when it happens? > >Most of us have seen cars cranked until dead without a battery fire or >meltdown... I'm talking about cranking till dead not a shorted battery >terminal situation where all of the energy is heating the battery. snipped ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 12:21:06 PM PST US From: "Dan Branstrom" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Manual master switch --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Branstrom" For the worldwide Lucas Electrics Lovers Website, go to : http://members.tripod.com/~tcotrel/lucas.html For other sites, try, http://www.afu.com/rolls/lucas.html http://www.britcycle.com/Manuals/prince_of_darkness.htm http://www.gomog.com/articles/lucas.html Do not archive. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charlie Kuss" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Manual master switch > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss > > Ken, > While a stuck starter is not common on cars, it does happen. My first experience with this was in the late 70s. I was a mechanic at a large Dodge dealership. The starter stayed engaged after the engine started. (Winter time, 2200 rpm start) Upon disassembly, the innards looked like an explosion in a copper wire factory! > I've seen this phenomenon occur on all makes of cars. Lucas failures tended to result in severe fires. (insert favorite Lucas joke here) :-) > Charlie Kuss > > > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: klehman@albedo.net > > > >> What do you do if the starter contactor sticks? How > >> do you drive all the fat wires to "max cold" in anticipation > >> of an unplanned arrival with the earth? > > > >How come I never seem to hear about automotive starters getting stuck > >on? Does the accelerating flywheel more forcibly disengage the starter > >gear and contacts on those? I've had several automotive starter failures > >but don't know anyone who has had a stuck on one. Anyway a small battery > >won't last too long if it does stick which puts the risk of fire pretty > >much up to what the battery does. Since you know of at least one RG > >battery that melted in an airplane that may be a concern. Are Lycoming > >starters more prone to sticking than automotive units or just more > >talked about when it happens? > > > >Most of us have seen cars cranked until dead without a battery fire or > >meltdown... I'm talking about cranking till dead not a shorted battery > >terminal situation where all of the energy is heating the battery. > snipped > > ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 12:56:43 PM PST US From: klehman@albedo.net Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Over-voltage, etc --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: klehman@albedo.net OK I'm reading very carefully and learning but lets start over as my wording was incomplete. Imagine that the engine has been started and is idling. I notice that the system voltage is abnormally low and the battery is discharging. Or maybe I did install that starter-engaged light and the darn thing is on. What to do, what to do? Suspecting a stuck starter contactor, I turn off the battery master, which disconnects the battery but leaves the rest of the electrical system connected to the starter. Since there is no diode across the starter it would seem that there has to be some reverse voltage applied to my electrical system. If my starter only drew an amp I'd have a diode across it to prevent this but there is no diode and 50 amps was flowing. I understand that some (I don't know how much) of the energy will dissipate in the arc as the battery contactor opens but I am also aware of instances where my automotive efi computer has gone poof in a fraction of a second when inadvertantly fed 12 volts of reverse polarity. In this case I wouldn't be worried about that efi computer because it is still connected to the battery bus. But what about the avionics and engine monitor that are still connected to the starter? Will they shrug off an event like that or are steps warranted to prevent it? Have I saved my battery only to smoke more expensive stuff? The above scenario is not a regular occurrence but it touches on much of my concern about using a battery contactor as per Z-14. Is it a valid concern? Has there been any testing for (negative) spikes in a scenario like the above? thanks again Ken >snip > How does your experience relate to the history of > battery contactor performance in aircraft? In 40 > years of hammer'n on airplanes, the ov events I've worked > that damaged airplane accessories were due to > poorly designed or non-existent ov protection systems. > In my experience, a battery contactor failure has > never been root cause of a damage scenario to > other components in the system. > > Well considered design supported by good maintenance > is the key to long and satisfactory service life. > Certified ships are seldom blessed with either. > > Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 01:29:32 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Over-voltage, etc --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 04:00 PM 1/2/2004 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: klehman@albedo.net > >OK I'm reading very carefully and learning but lets start over as my >wording was incomplete. > >Imagine that the engine has been started and is idling. I notice that >the system voltage is abnormally low and the battery is discharging. Or >maybe I did install that starter-engaged light and the darn thing is on. >What to do, what to do? Suspecting a stuck starter contactor, I turn off >the battery master, which disconnects the battery but leaves the rest of >the electrical system connected to the starter. Since there is no diode >across the starter it would seem that there has to be some reverse >voltage applied to my electrical system. If my starter only drew an amp >I'd have a diode across it to prevent this but there is no diode and 50 >amps was flowing. Motors are not as inductive as you might think. Recall the discussions on motor performance a few weeks ago. 12v motors don't run on 12v, they run on the DIFFERENCE between applied voltage (12v) and counter emf (several volts below applied). When you unhook a running motor, the only "kick" you get is from a very small amount of leakage inductance . . . the energies are small and no-lethal to other components in your system. > I understand that some (I don't know how much) of the >energy will dissipate in the arc as the battery contactor opens but I am >also aware of instances where my automotive efi computer has gone poof >in a fraction of a second when inadvertantly fed 12 volts of reverse >polarity. Which is a HUGE energy source . . . > In this case I wouldn't be worried about that efi computer >because it is still connected to the battery bus. But what about the >avionics and engine monitor that are still connected to the starter? >Will they shrug off an event like that or are steps warranted to prevent >it? Have I saved my battery only to smoke more expensive stuff? "saved the battery?" Oh, okay, you were hypothesizing about leaving the battery on and letting the event go to completion. >The above scenario is not a regular occurrence but it touches on much of >my concern about using a battery contactor as per Z-14. Is it a valid >concern? Has there been any testing for (negative) spikes in a scenario >like the above? . . . I did some informal studies on this years ago at Electromech on some smaller motors. I don't have any reason to believe that the starters are much different but I can probably put my hands on one to find out. First, if you take care of the batteries (yearly rotation schedule or periodic testing and discard when capacity drops below some nominal value 50-70%) and use both batteries to start, sticking starter contactors are not going to be an issue for you anyhow. It's already a very rare event in the certified world where it's most likely to happen. I think your worries are without foundation in physics or practice . . . but it's your airplane and nobody from Washington is going to stand over you an threaten loss of liberty for having wired it any way you wish. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 06:19:29 PM PST US From: Hi There Subject: AeroElectric-List: King radio connectors --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Hi There Where can I find the connectors for the back of a King radio. I bought a used radio and want to rewire it. Thanks Cam --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 06:40:14 PM PST US From: Jim Sower Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Slow Starter --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jim Sower <... Spun nicely with the plugs out, but yesterday I put in the plugs and it will barely turn over- the blades almost stopping on each compression stroke ...> My quick and dirty trouble shoot (works about 90% of the time: 1. Measure voltage at battery cable lugs. Usually very low, like 6-8V. 2. Measure voltage at battery post. Usually high, like 11V 3. Disconnect and polish post and lug. Reconnect, start engine and go flying. I very rarely need anything beyond a voltmeter to trouble shoot a starting system .... Jim S. ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 08:51:49 PM PST US From: "Neal A. Dillman" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: King radio connectors --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Neal A. Dillman" Cam, You will need to be more specific. Which King radio? -Neal- Hi There wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Hi There > >Where can I find the connectors for the back of a King radio. I bought a used radio and want to rewire it. > >Thanks >Cam > > >--------------------------------- > > > > ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 10:57:12 PM PST US From: Chad Robinson Subject: AeroElectric-List: Visio Symbols --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chad Robinson Hello all, I have been working on a Visio symbol stencil set based on Bob's CAD symbols - Bob, I hope you don't mind. I'm doing 5-10 a day as time permits, so this first copy is just a test set to be sure it works, but I'd appreciate it if a few people would download the file and check it out. Visio 2000 or higher is required. If this works out I'll incorporate most of the major symbols this weekend, then do the rest a few at a time as time permits. Check back periodically for updates. http://www.lucubration.com/aero/ Regards, Chad ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 11:13:50 PM PST US From: Charlie & Tupper England Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: MP3 input to panel mounted intercom --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie & Tupper England Charles Brame wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charles Brame > >Bob, et.al., > >I want to use an MP3 player through my SL-10MS intercom. The intercom >has stereo music input wiring, but I am a loss as to how to wire a MP3 >player to it. > >Most of the MP3 players (and CD players) I have looked at only have an >output for headphones. As I understand it, you should not hook headphone >or speaker output directly to an intercom input. > >How should a generic MP3 player, or any other music source, be connected >to a panel intercom system? > >Charlie Brame >RV-6A N11CB >San Antonio > The headphone output of a battery powered device like a cd player or mp3 player (likely power supply voltage 3 V) is very unlikely to overdrive the aux inputs of an intercom. Just make up a cable to interface the headphone output to the intercom, hook it up, & start with the player's volume control at minimum. Power everything up & with the player playing, slowly raise its volume until you get a usable signal into your headphones. You might even have a problem with inadequate signal level. If you do, you might need to check out Bob's 'isolation amplifier'. Charlie ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 11:15:24 PM PST US From: "Steve Richard" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Visio Symbols --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Steve Richard" Chad, Can you post some instructions on how to import your symbols into Visio? -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Chad Robinson Subject: AeroElectric-List: Visio Symbols --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chad Robinson Hello all, I have been working on a Visio symbol stencil set based on Bob's CAD symbols - Bob, I hope you don't mind. I'm doing 5-10 a day as time permits, so this first copy is just a test set to be sure it works, but I'd appreciate it if a few people would download the file and check it out. Visio 2000 or higher is required. If this works out I'll incorporate most of the major symbols this weekend, then do the rest a few at a time as time permits. Check back periodically for updates. http://www.lucubration.com/aero/ Regards, Chad ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 11:33:37 PM PST US From: "Troy Scott" Subject: AeroElectric-List: batteries and second alternator choice --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Troy Scott" Gentlemen, I've been studying the battery situation. I'm thinking I'll probably implement Bob's "mother of all electrical systems" with two batteries and two alternators for my Glasair Super II. I've found the following two 12v 12ah batteries: PowerSonic PS-12100-F2 Panasonic RA1212P1 Do these two fit the bill? Have any of you had experience with either of them? I also checked out two 17ah batteries that Bob specifically recommended in another post: PowerSonic PS12180 Panasonic LCRD1217P The recommended system connects the two batteries together for starting, so it seems to me that two smaller and lighter 12ah batteries should crank my normal-compression IO360 just fine. The only thing that bothers me is that the connectors on the smaller batteries are small, "fast-on" types. Thoughts? I'm thinking I might install the two batteries on the aft side of the firewall where installing and removing will be a little awkward. That's one reason why the 9 pound ones are much more attractive than the 14 pound ones. Also, I'm thinking I'd like to use the SD-8 PM-type alternator as the second one. The primary one is a B&C 60. Thoughts? Regards, Troy Scott tscott1217@bellsouth.net