Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:40 AM - Re: current leak? (George Braly)
2. 04:19 AM - Blue-Sea #5026 Fuse Block (Mark Neubauer)
3. 05:38 AM - Re: current leak? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 06:07 AM - Seat Heater Question (F1Rocket@comcast.net)
5. 06:36 AM - Power supplies (Fergus Kyle)
6. 06:47 AM - Re: Current Leak? (Eric M. Jones)
7. 07:08 AM - Re: Seat Heater Question (Larry Bowen)
8. 07:22 AM - Re: Seat Heater Question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 08:50 AM - Re: Seat Heater Question (Jeffrey W. Skiba)
10. 09:58 AM - Re: Seat Heater Question (F1Rocket@comcast.net)
11. 10:25 AM - Re: Seat Heater Question (Brett Ferrell)
12. 10:30 AM - Re: Seat Heater Question (Letempt, Jeffrey CW4)
13. 11:15 AM - Re: Seat Heater Question (F1Rocket@comcast.net)
14. 11:48 AM - Electric Seat Heaters (frequent flyer)
15. 02:42 PM - Re: Seat Heater Question (Larry Bowen)
16. 07:41 PM - Current leak, revisited (hollandm)
17. 08:23 PM - Re: Power supplies (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
18. 09:07 PM - Re: Seat Heater Question (Charlie Kuss)
Message 1
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "George Braly" <gwbraly@gami.com>
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PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PQ0KCQ0KCQ0KCQ0K
CQ0KCQ0KDQo
Message 2
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| Subject: | Blue-Sea #5026 Fuse Block |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark Neubauer" <mark.neubauer@genmar.com>
Matt, et.al.:
No, I do not work for the company which manufactures the fuse block. In fact, I
had not even heard of the company (Blue Sea Systems) until last October 30 when
I was attending a boat builder's conference in Miami Beach. (Genmar, from my
e-mail address, is a large builder of recreational and fishing boats and buys
components such as this) I was in the process of designing my electrical system
at the time, and seeing this fuse block was exactly what I was looking for.
I believe the unit sold by B&C is not as well-made. (But I am using one of theirs
for my battery buss since I needed a small, 6-circuit unit here).
My reason for sending the message is simple: I merely want to share a good thing
with fellow builders. Anything that makes an individual's homebuilt aircraft
safer and better helps all of us.
Regarding Bob's comments, here are my thoughts:
Item 1:
It seems to me that a screwed connection, with a ring-type crimped connector, is
better electrically than a Fast-On tab. (Bob, I know you refute this in the
Connection - and I'm a big fan of your design philosophy) The surface area of
the contact (basically a small annular surface), which is under high pressure
(i.e.. low contact resistance) from the screwhead's pressure, is better than the
two lines of contact with a Fast-On. (You can argue that the "back" of the
Fast-On connector also makes contact but this is relatively low pressure and subject
to oxidation). Further, the screwed-post/ring-fastener attachment method
lends itself better to multiple circuits feeding from one fuse. (don't worry,
I'm only talking about low-amp stuff like panel lights, etc.) Next, using a
drop of blue Lock-Tite on the threaded portion of the screw (NOT the area around
the screw) will provide vibration "proof-ness" without electrical resistance.
Finally, all electrical attachment points are chrome-plated which will prevent
long-term resistance change due to oxidation. (If you want to see electrical
problems raise their ugly head, try working these issues on a marine vessel
- which is just about always at 100% relative humidity)
Item 2:
The unit has 12 ground posts, and it is a no-brainer that I could attach 2 or 3
grounds to one post. Besides, with my two fuse blocks on the aircraft, and a
multiple ground-post strip on the firewall, I'm well covered on ground attach
points.
Mark
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: current leak? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 08:45 PM 1/22/2004 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "hollandm" <hollandm@pacbell.net>
>
>Bob, I checked and with the battery disconnected I still see the residual
>voltage but to my knowledge, there are no capacitors in the line, at this
>time. I checked the bus voltage with the steering diode disconnected and
>it dropped to zero. So on this basis I have concluded that the diode,
>somehow was responsible. The voltage did progressively drop but was still
>easily measurable 24 hours after the master was opened.
Okay, I'm confused as to which diode we're talking about. In your
message yesterday you said.
"When the battery master is off I can still measure about 0.5 to 0.7 volts
after the battery master contactor. With the master on and the relay closed
it measures full battery voltage so the contactor is mechanically OK. Is it
normal for a contactor to "leak" a low voltage when open? There is a diode
between the relay and the hot side. Could this be the source of the leak?
My concern is that the contactor may be defective and a small voltage leak
may result in a dead battery, if it can find a path to ground."
I'm trying to visualize the schematic. The diodes called out in
the Z-figures either go across contactor coils, or provide steering
for normal power to the e-bus or steering for a cross-feed contactor.
None of these diodes provide a leak path from battery to the rest
of the system when all the switches are open.
>So whatever is charging the circuit maintains that small voltage for a
>sustained period. Very strange.
Okay, let's get a current measurement. With all your switches
OFF, put your multimeter in the current mode and use it to
short the residual voltage to ground. Whatever reading you get
will be the magnitude of leak current. Also need a better
image of where your subject diode is installed on the system.
Bob . . .
-----------------------------------------
( Experience and common sense cannot be )
( replaced with policy and procedures. )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
-----------------------------------------
Message 4
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| Subject: | Seat Heater Question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: F1Rocket@comcast.net
I recently bought a set of automobile electrical seat heaters for my F1 Rocket.
The wiring diagram shows a 10A power lead from the bus to the relay, and a low
current wire from the ignition to the relay. In an aircraft application, I
don't see the need for the ignition side of this. I'm thinking that I can just
connect both the power lead and the ignition lead to the wire from the bus.
Does this sound okay? THanks.
Randy
F1 Rocket #95
http://f1rocket.home.comcast.net/
Message 5
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
Cheers,
I read with interest the thread on the title subject and an
additional suggestion popped up.
There are a number of accessories which require 3, 6 9 or other
voltages as a supply. In particular the Whelen units 'go sour' if not
utilized immediately on receipt. In fact the capacitor is a paste job, and
if allowed to rest for any extended period, can only be resuscitated by
applying a much lower voltage for say 15 minutes to bring it up to snuff,
Otherwise strobe go doodoo.
For these reasons it might be a good idea to acquire a p.s. which
has a variable-voltage capability - a quality topflight units usually
contain.
Ferg
Europa 914 mono
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Current Leak? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
>From: hollandm (hollandm@pacbell.net)
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "hollandm" <hollandm@pacbell.net>
>with the battery disconnected I still see the residual voltage..
>but to my knowledge, there are no capacitors in the line...
>So whatever is charging the circuit maintains that small voltage for a
sustained
>period. Very strange.
Very expected actually. There are ALWAYS capacitors holding voltages
someplace. Even if you clipped them all out there would STILL be
capacitances everywhere.
Measuring voltages is rarely a good way of looking at electrical circuits. A
disconnected capacitor just sitting around has a voltage on it. Just for
fun I took a capacitor that had not seen electricity for 10 years out of my
junk bin and measured it---135 mV (So THAT's where my electrons have been
hiding!). Your shoes and your head are a Kilovolt or so different if you're
standing up, and if a cloud passes over it changes tremendously.
Leakage CURRENT is the thing to check. Voltage is like water pressure...as
long as it stays in the pipe not much is happening.
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
Phone (508) 764-2072
Email: emjones@charter.net
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Seat Heater Question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" <Larry@BowenAero.com>
That's what I did, just last week. Seems to work fine.
I ended up re-doing the whole wiring harness that came with my seat heat
kit. I replaced the switch with a standard toggle like the rest of the
plane. It has two modes now, off and high (for both back and butt).
-
Larry Bowen
Larry@BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
F1Rocket@comcast.net said:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: F1Rocket@comcast.net
>
> I recently bought a set of automobile electrical seat heaters for my F1
> Rocket. The wiring diagram shows a 10A power lead from the bus to the
> relay, and a low current wire from the ignition to the relay. In an
> aircraft application, I don't see the need for the ignition side of this.
> I'm thinking that I can just connect both the power lead and the ignition
> lead to the wire from the bus.
>
> Does this sound okay? THanks.
>
> Randy
> F1 Rocket #95
> http://f1rocket.home.comcast.net/
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Seat Heater Question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 10:08 AM 1/23/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" <Larry@BowenAero.com>
>
>That's what I did, just last week. Seems to work fine.
>
>I ended up re-doing the whole wiring harness that came with my seat heat
>kit. I replaced the switch with a standard toggle like the rest of the
>plane. It has two modes now, off and high (for both back and butt).
>
>-
>Larry Bowen
>Larry@BowenAero.com
>http://BowenAero.com
>
>F1Rocket@comcast.net said:
> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: F1Rocket@comcast.net
> >
> > I recently bought a set of automobile electrical seat heaters for my F1
> > Rocket. The wiring diagram shows a 10A power lead from the bus to the
> > relay, and a low current wire from the ignition to the relay. In an
> > aircraft application, I don't see the need for the ignition side of this.
> > I'm thinking that I can just connect both the power lead and the ignition
> > lead to the wire from the bus.
> >
> > Does this sound okay? THanks.
It's interesting to compare mental images derived from
words attempting to describe a schematic . . . both of
these posts raise more questions than answers.
Randy, how to you intend to control the heater? Switch
on the panel? Does the heater have more than one heat
setting (as implied from Larry's post)? Do you have
a way to scan the wiring diagram for your heater and
send it to me?
I have some initial impressions of what might be a
useful answer but I'd like to see the roadmap for
electrons to be sure I'm doing a good thing.
Bob . . .
-----------------------------------------
( Experience and common sense cannot be )
( replaced with policy and procedures. )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
-----------------------------------------
Message 9
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| Subject: | Seat Heater Question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jeffrey W. Skiba" <jskiba@icosa.net>
I am curious who's kit did you buy and from where How much etc...
Thanks
Jeff.
That's what I did, just last week. Seems to work fine.
I ended up re-doing the whole wiring harness that came with my seat heat
kit. I replaced the switch with a standard toggle like the rest of the
plane. It has two modes now, off and high (for both back and butt).
-
Larry Bowen
Larry@BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Seat Heater Question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: F1Rocket@comcast.net
The wiring schematic that came with the kit doesn't depict much. The kit came
with a complete wiring harness, although it is intended for an automobile. Each
set of heat pads (bottom and top pad) connect via the harness to a relay.
A switch to control off-low-high also connects to this relay via the harness.
Both relays (front seat, rear seat) connect to another relay via the harness.
From this relay, there are three wires. Power, Ground, and Ignition. From
reading the instructions, it looks like the power wire is connected to the battery,
and the ignition wire to the ignition switch so that the seats are only
powered when the switch is on. Since I will connect the power to my bus, I don't
need the ignition part of this circuit, but I assume I must apply power to
this wire so the relay is on for the seats to work.
P=Pads
S=Switch
R=Relay
P S
\ /
R--- ---- Ground
/ \ /
P \ /
R------ Power
P / \
\ / \
R--- ---- Ignition
/ \
P S
Does this help? If not, I'll try and fax the instruction sheets and schematic
to you this evening when I get home. Thanks.
Randy
>
> It's interesting to compare mental images derived from
> words attempting to describe a schematic . . . both of
> these posts raise more questions than answers.
>
> Randy, how to you intend to control the heater? Switch
> on the panel? Does the heater have more than one heat
> setting (as implied from Larry's post)? Do you have
> a way to scan the wiring diagram for your heater and
> send it to me?
>
> I have some initial impressions of what might be a
> useful answer but I'd like to see the roadmap for
> electrons to be sure I'm doing a good thing.
>
>
> Bob . . .
Message 11
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| Subject: | Seat Heater Question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brett Ferrell <bferrell@123mail.net>
Jeff,
I've purchased these for my Velocity.
http://www.sportsimportsltd.com/afcarseathea.html
Brett
Quoting "Jeffrey W. Skiba" <jskiba@icosa.net>:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jeffrey W. Skiba"
> <jskiba@icosa.net>
>
> I am curious who's kit did you buy and from where How much etc...
>
> Thanks
> Jeff.
>
> That's what I did, just last week. Seems to work fine.
>
> I ended up re-doing the whole wiring harness that came with my seat heat
> kit. I replaced the switch with a standard toggle like the rest of the
> plane. It has two modes now, off and high (for both back and butt).
>
> -
> Larry Bowen
> Larry@BowenAero.com
> http://BowenAero.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
Visit us at www.velocityxl.com
44VF Velocity XL/FG
I68 Cincinnati, OH
Message 12
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| Subject: | Seat Heater Question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Letempt, Jeffrey CW4" <jeffrey.letempt@us.army.mil>
Randy,
What was your source for the heater? I have been looking at 12 volt
automotive blankets that I would have to modify.
Thanks,
Jeff
-----Original Message-----
From: F1Rocket@comcast.net [mailto:F1Rocket@comcast.net]
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Seat Heater Question
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: F1Rocket@comcast.net
I recently bought a set of automobile electrical seat heaters for my F1
Rocket. The wiring diagram shows a 10A power lead from the bus to the
relay, and a low current wire from the ignition to the relay. In an
aircraft application, I don't see the need for the ignition side of this.
I'm thinking that I can just connect both the power lead and the ignition
lead to the wire from the bus.
Does this sound okay? THanks.
Randy
F1 Rocket #95
http://f1rocket.home.comcast.net/
Message 13
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| Subject: | Seat Heater Question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: F1Rocket@comcast.net
Follow this link:
http://www.sportsimportsltd.com/afcarseathea.html
Randy
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Letempt, Jeffrey CW4"
> <jeffrey.letempt@us.army.mil>
>
> Randy,
>
> What was your source for the heater? I have been looking at 12 volt
> automotive blankets that I would have to modify.
>
> Thanks,
> Jeff
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: F1Rocket@comcast.net [mailto:F1Rocket@comcast.net]
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Seat Heater Question
>
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: F1Rocket@comcast.net
>
> I recently bought a set of automobile electrical seat heaters for my F1
> Rocket. The wiring diagram shows a 10A power lead from the bus to the
> relay, and a low current wire from the ignition to the relay. In an
> aircraft application, I don't see the need for the ignition side of this.
> I'm thinking that I can just connect both the power lead and the ignition
> lead to the wire from the bus.
>
> Does this sound okay? THanks.
>
> Randy
> F1 Rocket #95
> http://f1rocket.home.comcast.net/
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Electric Seat Heaters |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: frequent flyer <jdhcv@yahoo.com>
What a bunch of wusses! Of course, I am in Arizona.
Jack
__________________________________
Message 15
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| Subject: | Seat Heater Question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" <Larry@BowenAero.com>
Mine are made by Rosta. I think I gave $130 for each seat. I don't
like the fact they have a 3x5" module that you have to mount somewhere.
I think other systems do not have this, so I would look at them instead
if I was shopping for them again. Better yet, check this post from the
RV-List archives:
http://checkoway.com/url/?s=74e1ac9f
-
Larry Bowen
Larry@BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeffrey W. Skiba [mailto:jskiba@icosa.net]
> Sent: Friday, January 23, 2004 11:50 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Seat Heater Question
>
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jeffrey W. Skiba"
> --> <jskiba@icosa.net>
>
> I am curious who's kit did you buy and from where How much etc...
>
> Thanks
> Jeff.
>
> That's what I did, just last week. Seems to work fine.
>
> I ended up re-doing the whole wiring harness that came with
> my seat heat kit. I replaced the switch with a standard
> toggle like the rest of the plane. It has two modes now, off
> and high (for both back and butt).
>
> -
> Larry Bowen
> Larry@BowenAero.com
> http://BowenAero.com
>
>
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Message 16
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| Subject: | Current leak, revisited |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "hollandm" <hollandm@pacbell.net>
Per Bob's direction I charged my system by turning on the master. With the master
off the residual voltage was about 0.6volts. When I hooked the meter into
the same side of the circuit to measure current I could not detect any measurable
current at a sensitivity of 0.001 amps.
I have no capacitors installed, anywhere, at this stage, no engine and just wiring
switches and busses at the moment.
The diode in the current path is the steering diode and is wired between the main
and ebus, per Z13.
I think Eric Jones is on the right track, but in the absence of any capacitors,
how about this theory. Could the metal fuselage itself act as sort of a capacitor,
if that possible? Whatever induces the voltage has a current is less
than 1 milliamp and takes many hours to discharge.
Just another learning experience.
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Power supplies |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 09:39 AM 1/23/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
>
>Cheers,
> I read with interest the thread on the title subject and an
>additional suggestion popped up.
> There are a number of accessories which require 3, 6 9 or other
>voltages as a supply. In particular the Whelen units 'go sour' if not
>utilized immediately on receipt. In fact the capacitor is a paste job, and
>if allowed to rest for any extended period, can only be resuscitated by
>applying a much lower voltage for say 15 minutes to bring it up to snuff,
>Otherwise strobe go doodoo.
Unless your strobe supply has been sitting on the shelf for years,
that time honored slow crank-up procedure isn't really useful. It
was most useful 30 years ago before electrolytic capacitor technology
really came of age . . .
> For these reasons it might be a good idea to acquire a p.s. which
>has a variable-voltage capability - a quality topflight units usually
>contain.
Single voltage, switchmode power supplies are generally
less expensive with respect to power output capability.
Examples include items like this:
http://www.circuitspecialists.com/prod.itml/icOid/1781
Enough snort to emulate a small alternator for working
the bugs out of your airplane. For bench test work, a
variable voltage, variable current limit power supply is
essential . . . but you pay some $ for the features.
We have several power supplies of this genre' on the
bench:
http://www.multimeterwarehouse.com/hy3003dSingle.htm
These are very useful for electronic testing/experimentation
when you can use control of both voltage and current limits.
Bob . . .
-----------------------------------------
( Experience and common sense cannot be )
( replaced with policy and procedures. )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
-----------------------------------------
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Seat Heater Question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss <chaskuss@bellsouth.net>
Randy,
I'd suggest that you wire the low power (trigger) ignition lead from the main
buss. The intent is that you can't activate the circuit if the ignition (master
relay in our case) is off. This is so you don't run down your battery accidently.
Charlie Kuss
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: F1Rocket@comcast.net
>
>I recently bought a set of automobile electrical seat heaters for my F1 Rocket.
The wiring diagram shows a 10A power lead from the bus to the relay, and a
low current wire from the ignition to the relay. In an aircraft application,
I don't see the need for the ignition side of this. I'm thinking that I can just
connect both the power lead and the ignition lead to the wire from the bus.
>
>Does this sound okay? THanks.
>
>Randy
>F1 Rocket #95
>http://f1rocket.home.comcast.net/
>
>
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