Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:21 AM - Re: OV protection for internally regulated alternators (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
2. 07:25 AM - Re: Converting a Denso Alternator (Mark Steitle)
3. 07:31 AM - Re: shunt switch (Joel Harding)
4. 07:33 AM - Re: Noise (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 07:42 AM - Antenna(S) for Com(s)? (N27160@aol.com)
6. 08:27 AM - start up/shut down procedure (Rick Johnson)
7. 09:08 AM - Re: Antenna(S) for Com(s)? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
8. 09:13 AM - Re: Antenna(S) for Com(s)? (Wayne Berg)
9. 10:49 AM - Re: Re: OV protection for internally regulated alternators (Clay R)
10. 11:10 AM - Re: Internally regulated alternators (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
11. 11:12 AM - Connector for elevator trim servo (N67BT@aol.com)
12. 11:13 AM - Re: start up/shut down procedure (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
13. 11:40 AM - Re: start up/shut down procedure (Ned Thomas)
14. 11:56 AM - Re: Re: OV protection for internally regulated alternators / ND alternator (Steve Sampson)
15. 12:02 PM - Re: Antenna(S) for Com(s)? (Dave Morris)
16. 12:07 PM - OV protection for internally regulated alternators (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
17. 12:07 PM - Re: Re: OV protection for internally regulated alternators (Steve Sampson)
18. 12:11 PM - Re: start up/shut down procedure (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
19. 12:25 PM - Re: start up/shut down procedure (Matt Prather)
20. 01:25 PM - OBAM ? (Kent Sorensen)
21. 01:27 PM - Re: OBAM ? (BobsV35B@aol.com)
22. 01:32 PM - Re: Re: OV protection for internally regulated (Dj Merrill)
23. 01:40 PM - Alternator Recommendation and Conversions (Ned Thomas)
24. 01:46 PM - Re: OBAM ? (Ageless Wings)
25. 02:09 PM - OV protection for internally regulated alternators (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
26. 02:21 PM - Re: OV protection for internally regulated alt (Beckman, Rick)
27. 02:23 PM - Re: OBAM ? (Dan Branstrom)
28. 02:24 PM - Re: OBAM ? (Jon Finley)
29. 02:41 PM - Re: OV protection for internally regulated alt (Bartrim, Todd)
30. 03:02 PM - Re: OBAM ? (Dave Morris)
31. 03:37 PM - Re: OV protection for internally regulated alternators (Joe Dubner)
32. 04:11 PM - Re: start up/shut down procedure (AI Nut)
33. 04:11 PM - OV protection for internally regulated alternators (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
34. 04:25 PM - Re: OBAM ? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
35. 04:58 PM - Re: Re: OV protection for internally regulated (Jim Oke)
36. 05:16 PM - BNC bulkhead pass-through connectors (LarryRobertHelming)
37. 06:00 PM - Re: BNC bulkhead pass-through connectors (Dave Morris)
38. 06:10 PM - Re: Converting a Denso Alternator #2 (Charlie Kuss)
39. 06:27 PM - Re: Converting a Denso Alternator #3 (Charlie Kuss)
40. 06:59 PM - Re: Converting a Denso Alternator #3 (Charlie Kuss)
41. 07:41 PM - EMI solution for Dynon? (Dan Checkoway)
42. 07:56 PM - Re: start up/shut down procedure (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
43. 08:05 PM - OV protection for internally regulated alternators (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
44. 08:10 PM - Re: Connector for elevator trim servo (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
45. 08:24 PM - Re: BNC bulkhead pass-through connectors (Richard E. Tasker)
46. 09:01 PM - Re: EMI solution for Dynon? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
47. 09:08 PM - Re: EMI solution for Dynon? (Dave Morris)
48. 09:51 PM - Re: Converting a Denso Alternator (Jerzy Krasinski)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: OV protection for internally regulated alternators |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 07:15 PM 2/3/2004 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Michel Therrien <mtherr@yahoo.com>
>
>That battery dump damage thing... is this only related
>with the alternators from Vans, or any automotive
>alternators (including the Nippodensos found in
>japanese cars)?
>
>Is this a certainty that it will fail each time, or is
>it once in a lifetime that this will happen?
>
>Thanks!
>
>Michel
Z-24 has been published for several years. I have
to believe there have been a lot of systems installed
and are flying. The questions are:
(1) how many alternators are subject to this failure
because their internal regulators are not rated for
the battery-dump stress?
(2) how many builders have put their particular
alternator "to the test" by cycling the alternator
control switch while the alternator was working
hard?
There are so many variables here that a truly
quantitative response to your question cannot be
deduced from what we know.
I'm not sure which alternator Van's is selling.
I THOUGHT it was an ND alternator. Does anyone
know?
It does take a combination of conditions to
trigger the event:
(1) relatively old design for built in regulator
that is NOT protected from the battery-dump
transient.
(2) size of the transient is a function of how
fast alternator is running and at what load
when the connection between b-lead and battery
is broken.
When fitted with rudimentary electrical system
instrumentation (low volts warning light or
a voltmeter) there is no practical need or
routinely exercised practice that calls for
opening the alternator disconnect contactor
while the engine is running IRRESPECTIVE
of alternator vulnerability.
If EVERY airplane I've ever rented over the
past 23 years had been vulnerable to this
failure mode, I'm 99.9% certain that the mode
would not have been triggered while I was
using the airplane . . . i.e. I've never
had a situation arise where it was valuable
or even interesting to operate the switch
with the engine running.
At the moment, my sense is that given the way
MOST of us were taught (or not) on how
to operate the airplane, the risks to even
vulnerable alternators is quite low.
The risk can be driven essentially zero once
the magnitude of the transient is characterized
and prophylactic measures implemented. At this
point in the investigation, it would be a sad
thing for a builder to jerk his perfectly working
alternator off in knee-jerk response to truthful
but poorly quantified warnings from well meaning
folks who don't understand the system.
Bob . . .
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Converting a Denso Alternator |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mark Steitle <msteitle@mail.utexas.edu>
At 07:51 PM 2/3/2004 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Hi There <rv90619@yahoo.com>
>
>
>I have a couple of Denso Alternators that I want to convert to
>nonregulated alternators.
Cameron,
I posted this procedure a while back, but couldn't find it in the
archives. So, here is the procedure I used to convert my two ND
alternators to external regulator mode.
Mark
=============================================
Bob N. strongly recommends using externally regulated alternators only, or
modifying the internal regulator models so as to allow it to be shut down
if necessary. (Supposedly, a voltage run-away can happen in a few seconds.)
Problem is that the articles I read explaining how to convert the
internally regulated alternators to external regulation didn't work. (Did I
do something wrong?) I think I have worked out a simpler solution. The
objective here is to isolate the field windings from the diode bridge so
that the alternator can then be externally controlled.
This is how I went about converting my alternators. First I removed the
back cover, exposing the diode bridge, regulator assy. and brush holder.
Then removed the regulator and brush holder and threw the regulator assy in
the trash. Next I removed the brush holder and shaped a little brace from
1/8" phenolic that will support one side of the brush holder and isolate it
from the diode bridge. This piece will be about 7/8" x 1/4" with a #8 hole
in each end. Do not make this piece out of metal or it will short out the
diode bridge. Also make up a jumper wire about three inches long with a
ring terminal on each end. One end will attach to the right terminal on the
brush holder and the other will attach to the alternator case (gnd.).
The other terminal on the brush holder will need a spacer under it to keep
everything aligned properly. The left brush will need to have the lead wire
un-soldered from the brush holder. The wire comes through the back of the
brush holder. Unsolder it there and drill out the hole just a bit to allow
a #20 wire with shrink tube to fit snugly through the hole. Solder the #20
wire to the end of the braided wire on the brush.
Now we're ready to reassemble the whole thing. Pass the #20 wire through
the hole drilled in the brush holder and reinsert the spring and brush.
Screw the brush holder back into place, with a spacer washer under the left
terminal. The ground wire goes on the opposite terminal. Feed the wire
soldered to the brush through a hole in the alternator cover, with a
grommet to prevent chaffing. This wire will go to the "F" terminal of the
external voltage regulator. I used a generic Ford unit from a mid-seventies
model (approx. $10/ea from Auto Zone). The S & A terminals of the regulator
tie together and get fed from the alt. switch & 5 amp breaker. The "B"
terminal on the alternator goes to the battery contactor. The other
terminal on the regulator isn't used.
I modified two ND alternators using this method and they both work great.
It takes about 30 minutes to do the modifications. All I need to do now is
add a crowbar over-voltage protector to each regulator and I'm set to go.
Or you can use a B&C voltage regulator with built-in OVP and low-voltage
warning.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: shunt switch |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Joel Harding <cajole76@ispwest.com>
On Feb 3, 2004, at 4:45 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
> <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
> At 12:44 PM 2/3/2004 -0700, you wrote:
>> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Joel Harding
>> <cajole76@ispwest.com>
>>
>>
>> I'm looking for a recommendation for a high quality mini switch ( one
>> fourth inch throat size) to select between the shunt in my alternator
>> line and one in the battery lead, before it enters the volt amp meter.
>
> Are you running cranking currents through the battery shunt?
>
>
No, it's in the lead from the battery to the ess. bus, so it won't be
exposed to cranking currents.
Joel
Message 4
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 01:25 AM 2/4/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Scott Hersha" <shersha@fuse.net>
>
>I haven't tried any experiments yet except using a ferrite toroid on the
>antenna lead. No help. After reading chapter 16, I think I potentially have
>several areas for concern. My wires are probably not bundled properly to
>keep certain wires separated.
Possible problem but pretty low on list of probabilities
> My strobe power lead shield is grounded at the
>power supply only not the strobe lamp also.
that's fine. ground shield at power supply end only.
> I'm going to build 3
>capacitor/filters you describe, one for the intercom power, and one each for
>the two strobe power supplys.
Whups . . . don't do this yet.
> I'm also going to try connecting my com radio
>to a 'clean' power source..separate battery.
Good idea.
> I'll disconnect the radio
>antenna first to see if the noise is coming through it or the bus.
another good idea
> All these
>'experiments' will take some time, but if none of these work, I'll get back
>to you.
Do the detective work before you buy any parts.
We await the results of your investigation.
Bob . . .
Message 5
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| Subject: | Antenna(S) for Com(s)? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: N27160@aol.com
Im adding a second com to my airplane. question is, do I need a second com
antenna if I dont intend to transmit on both coms at the same time?
Message 6
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| Subject: | start up/shut down procedure |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Rick Johnson <ricklj@silverstar.com>
Bob: I am wiring my RV7 according to your Z-13 and Z-24 diagrams. The
only exception is I am using a 2-3 switch for my battery/alternator field
switch instead of your 2-10. I would like to know what the proper start up
- system check - shut down procedure should be. How should I check to see
if the SD-8 alternator is working correctly after the engine is running?
What will the ammeter on that circuit read if the auxiliary alternator
switch is off? Sounds like after start up, I wouldn't want to switch off
the battery/primary alternator then switch on the e-bus and auxiliary
alternator to see if it is carrying the system load properly. I'm confused
and would rather get some good advice from you before ruining some
expensive equipment. And thanks for your fantastic web site and all the
great advice you dispense here.
rick
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Antenna(S) for Com(s)? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 10:42 AM 2/4/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: N27160@aol.com
>
>Im adding a second com to my airplane. question is, do I need a second com
>antenna if I dont intend to transmit on both coms at the same time?
Yes, you'll want to listen on both and while this could be done
with a splitter, you can't used the splitter to transmit. If you
use a relay or switch to put one antenna on the active transmitter,
then you can't hear on both receivers.
Further, putting such gizmos in the antenna for both transceivers
gives you a single point of failure for both radios. You loose
both utility and reliability when you try to share the antenna
between two transceivers.
Bob . . .
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Antenna(S) for Com(s)? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Wayne Berg" <wfberg@msn.com>
Yes. You would need a coax switch in the line to isolate your transmitters. Without
that or a second antenna you would be sending RF back into the second Com.
Very bad and very expensive. Keep second com antenna at least 21" from the other
com antenna.
----- Original Message -----
From: N27160@aol.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Antenna(S) for Com(s)?
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: N27160@aol.com
Im adding a second com to my airplane. question is, do I need a second com
antenna if I dont intend to transmit on both coms at the same time?
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: OV protection for internally regulated alternators |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Clay R <clayr_55@yahoo.com>
I'm going to reluctantly reply to your message and it
will be my very last post to this list on the subject.
I personally feel like I am being blamed for "not
knowing" that I shouldn't have switched off the
alternator switch while the engine was running.
Sorry if I was taught it could be done on a Cessna...
old habits die hard and turning off the alternator
with the engine running shouldn't be OK on one plane
but not another unless labeled as such. All I
originally wanted was a warning on Z-24 to keep others
from making the same mistake I did.
--- "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L.
> Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
>
> Z-24 has been published for several years. I have
> to believe there have been a lot of systems
> installed
> and are flying. The questions are:
>
Z-24 may have been published for several years... but
that DOES NOT mean there are a lot of people flying it
yet and there isn't a problem with it.
The time required to build an airplane means that an
idea needs to be out there for a year or two before it
will be flying. When it was published, builders would
need to be BEFORE the wiring stage to implement this
idea easily... those that had already planned and
started their wiring when z-24 was published probably
didn't implement it because the idea was new and would
require rework.
I personally have never encountered another z-24
airplane flying, and neither had the DAR who certifies
experimental planes every week in the Dallas area.
Please, speak up if you have your flying plane wired
like z-24 and have (or have not) seen any issues with
it. Any additional data points will help.
> (1) how many alternators are subject to this
> failure
> because their internal regulators are not rated
> for
> the battery-dump stress?
>
> (2) how many builders have put their particular
> alternator "to the test" by cycling the
> alternator
> control switch while the alternator was working
> hard?
>
I had my EFIS/One turned on (3.5A), the Lightspeed
(1.3A), and the engine was at a slow idle. My battery
was charged, and there were no radios on, no lights,
nothing else... Does this qualify as working hard?
> There are so many variables here that a truly
> quantitative response to your question cannot be
> deduced from what we know.
>
> I'm not sure which alternator Van's is selling.
> I THOUGHT it was an ND alternator. Does anyone
> know?
My alternator from Vans has ND stamped on it.
>
> It does take a combination of conditions to
> trigger the event:
>
> (1) relatively old design for built in regulator
> that is NOT protected from the battery-dump
> transient.
>
> (2) size of the transient is a function of how
> fast alternator is running and at what load
> when the connection between b-lead and battery
> is broken.
>
> When fitted with rudimentary electrical system
> instrumentation (low volts warning light or
> a voltmeter) there is no practical need or
> routinely exercised practice that calls for
> opening the alternator disconnect contactor
> while the engine is running IRRESPECTIVE
> of alternator vulnerability.
>
> If EVERY airplane I've ever rented over the
> past 23 years had been vulnerable to this
> failure mode, I'm 99.9% certain that the mode
> would not have been triggered while I was
> using the airplane . . . i.e. I've never
> had a situation arise where it was valuable
> or even interesting to operate the switch
> with the engine running.
Rental airplanes and OBAM with z-24 are different...
Rentals have externally regulated alternators without
a contactor on the B-lead.
>
> At the moment, my sense is that given the way
> MOST of us were taught (or not) on how
> to operate the airplane, the risks to even
> vulnerable alternators is quite low.
>
> The risk can be driven essentially zero once
> the magnitude of the transient is characterized
> and prophylactic measures implemented. At this
> point in the investigation, it would be a sad
> thing for a builder to jerk his perfectly working
> alternator off in knee-jerk response to truthful
> but poorly quantified warnings from well meaning
> folks who don't understand the system.
>
> Bob . . .
If I'm the one giving the truthful but poorly
quantified warning, and don't understand the system,
I'm sorry for being well-meaning and bringing it up.
In retrospect, It would have been less stressful to
quietly switch to an externally regulated alternator
and left it for someone else to bring up. From the
amount of email I've received, people seem to be happy
I've shared my experience with the group.
I do believe that once the problem is fully tested and
understood a fix will be found for z-24 (or no problem
will be found at all.. it was user error), and
everyone will be happy once again. We live and learn
and move on.
For now Bob's right, don't change your alternator,
just don't switch it off unless you want to help with
the testing. ;-)
-Clay
__________________________________
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Internally regulated alternators |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 10:22 AM 2/4/2004 -0700, you wrote:
>Here is a single point anecdotal observation.
>
>There is only one "Vans" 60 Amp alternator on our airfield, and it is a
>rebuilt Mitsubishi. It looks like a later generation alternator ( Vented
>frame, and internal fans); however it is of the ilk which, once activated
>with the alt switch, it will not turn off with the alt switch. He has had
>no serious problems with it. This one was purchased several years ago and
>no telling what Van is selling now.
This is consistent with other notes I'm getting. Van's
has sold several different models over the years. None
are new, most if not all are re-builds of some kind.
Here's where it gets sticky. These modern alternators
are mechanically and electrically quite robust. I'd
guess that the most common reason for an alternator to
be replaced is from brush wear, bearing wear or
regulator failure.
For every OEM that builds alternators as products they'll
be proud of, there are dozens of after-market manufacturers
of replacement regulators. I've often opined that ND
alternators are among the best bets out there for
a reliable alternator . . . this is reinforced with
first hand knowledge of B&C's success with this product.
B&C chooses not to put original equipment regulators
to the test opting instead of offering their own flavor
of external regulator.
Once the alternator is opened for rebuilding,
there is risk that the final product will become
something less than the original manufacturer would
be willing to put their brand on. The biggest single
variable will be design of a replacement regulator.
"Load dump" in cars is a very rare event . . . if
a regulator manufacturer can make a few pennies more
per unit by short changing load dump immunity . . .
well, we know which way that decision often goes.
>Most of the other Van's planes on our air field have Denso 40 A alternators
>which came from Niagra Air Parts, and are new, fairly late models. These
>look just like the B&C, but have internal regulators. I have personally
>checked several times and it does shut down with the switch
>(Sensor/regulator power?). I have it wired with the contactor and OVM. I
>have also opened the Alt main (B lead) CB several times when under load and
>it doesn't seem to harm it. I ain't doing that any more; however. I start
>with it off and turn it on when the motor is running. It comes off after
>engine shut down.
A very rational approach to risk reduction . . . and it
may be that you're seeing mostly new machines with ND original
regulators that are not vulnerable to battery-dump
events.
>It is therefore my belief that the very popular 40 Amp Denso bought new from
>Niagra has a regulator which has dump logic in it. It seems bullet proof in
>that regard; however I still feel the need for the OV module and contactor,
>in case of the internal failure mode which you describe.
>
>This is not much of a data point but it sounds like you are starting from
>scratch, so I hope this helps.
Very helpful, thanks!
Bob . . .
-----------------------------------------
( Experience and common sense cannot be )
( replaced with policy and procedures. )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
-----------------------------------------
Message 11
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| Subject: | Connector for elevator trim servo |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: N67BT@aol.com
Photos and info on the Hirose connector I plan to use for the elevator trim
servo are posted on my web site.
http://users.aol.com/n67bt
This thing looks like just the ticket. What do you think Bob N.?
They cost around $14 for the pair.
Bob Trumpfheller
RV7A
Western Colorado
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: start up/shut down procedure |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 08:55 AM 2/4/2004 -0700, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Rick Johnson <ricklj@silverstar.com>
>
>Bob: I am wiring my RV7 according to your Z-13 and Z-24 diagrams. The
>only exception is I am using a 2-3 switch for my battery/alternator field
>switch instead of your 2-10. I would like to know what the proper start up
>- system check - shut down procedure should be. How should I check to see
>if the SD-8 alternator is working correctly after the engine is running?
>What will the ammeter on that circuit read if the auxiliary alternator
>switch is off? Sounds like after start up, I wouldn't want to switch off
>the battery/primary alternator then switch on the e-bus and auxiliary
>alternator to see if it is carrying the system load properly. I'm confused
>and would rather get some good advice from you before ruining some
>expensive equipment. And thanks for your fantastic web site and all the
>great advice you dispense here.
I'll suggest that you replace the 2-3 with a 2-10. Start with
battery only. After engine starts, test the SD-8 before you
turn the main alternator on.
An option: Make the aux alternator switch a 2-3 where control
current for main alternator goes through the second set of
contacts such that the main alternator is disabled any time
the SD-8 is ON. Start with the both DC PWR MASTER and AUX ALT
switches ON. After preflight of the SD-8 is complete, turn
it OFF and it will be replaced by the main alternator.
Bob . . .
-----------------------------------------
( Experience and common sense cannot be )
( replaced with policy and procedures. )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
-----------------------------------------
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: start up/shut down procedure |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ned Thomas" <315@cox.net>
Don't know if this is pertainant to this thread but I understand that once
the SD-8 is energized it remains energized producing power until it stops
rotating.
It hasn't been made clear to me whether this is detrimental to have it
running energized while disconnected from everything??
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: OV protection for internally regulated alternators |
/ ND alternator
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21@london.edu>
Michael/Bob, The alternator VANS shipped to me IS a refurb Nippon Denso
(Spelling?) alternator. It is the one on p7 of the 2003 accesory catalogue.
I had suggested the 35Amp externally regulated one but they suggested this
was a better bet and lighter.
Steve.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: OV protection for internally regulated
alternators
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 07:15 PM 2/3/2004 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Michel Therrien <mtherr@yahoo.com>
>
>That battery dump damage thing... is this only related
>with the alternators from Vans, or any automotive
>alternators (including the Nippodensos found in
>japanese cars)?
>
>Is this a certainty that it will fail each time, or is
>it once in a lifetime that this will happen?
>
>Thanks!
>
>Michel
Z-24 has been published for several years. I have
to believe there have been a lot of systems installed
and are flying. The questions are:
(1) how many alternators are subject to this failure
because their internal regulators are not rated for
the battery-dump stress?
(2) how many builders have put their particular
alternator "to the test" by cycling the alternator
control switch while the alternator was working
hard?
There are so many variables here that a truly
quantitative response to your question cannot be
deduced from what we know.
I'm not sure which alternator Van's is selling.
I THOUGHT it was an ND alternator. Does anyone
know?
It does take a combination of conditions to
trigger the event:
(1) relatively old design for built in regulator
that is NOT protected from the battery-dump
transient.
(2) size of the transient is a function of how
fast alternator is running and at what load
when the connection between b-lead and battery
is broken.
When fitted with rudimentary electrical system
instrumentation (low volts warning light or
a voltmeter) there is no practical need or
routinely exercised practice that calls for
opening the alternator disconnect contactor
while the engine is running IRRESPECTIVE
of alternator vulnerability.
If EVERY airplane I've ever rented over the
past 23 years had been vulnerable to this
failure mode, I'm 99.9% certain that the mode
would not have been triggered while I was
using the airplane . . . i.e. I've never
had a situation arise where it was valuable
or even interesting to operate the switch
with the engine running.
At the moment, my sense is that given the way
MOST of us were taught (or not) on how
to operate the airplane, the risks to even
vulnerable alternators is quite low.
The risk can be driven essentially zero once
the magnitude of the transient is characterized
and prophylactic measures implemented. At this
point in the investigation, it would be a sad
thing for a builder to jerk his perfectly working
alternator off in knee-jerk response to truthful
but poorly quantified warnings from well meaning
folks who don't understand the system.
Bob . . .
---
Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
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Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Antenna(S) for Com(s)? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dave Morris <dave@davemorris.com>
You could build up a relay that your PTT connector plugs into, that would
disconnect the 2nd comm radio from the antenna when you push the mike
button. A lot has been written about that sort of thing in the amateur
radio circles. If you're handy with a soldering iron, do a Google.com
search for QSK TR SWITCH and see what's been written.
Dave Morris
N5UP
At 11:07 AM 2/4/2004 -0600, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
><bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
>At 10:42 AM 2/4/2004 -0500, you wrote:
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: N27160@aol.com
> >
> >Im adding a second com to my airplane. question is, do I need a second com
> >antenna if I dont intend to transmit on both coms at the same time?
>
> Yes, you'll want to listen on both and while this could be done
> with a splitter, you can't used the splitter to transmit. If you
> use a relay or switch to put one antenna on the active transmitter,
> then you can't hear on both receivers.
>
> Further, putting such gizmos in the antenna for both transceivers
> gives you a single point of failure for both radios. You loose
> both utility and reliability when you try to share the antenna
> between two transceivers.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
Dave Morris
Message 16
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| Subject: | OV protection for internally regulated alternators |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 10:48 AM 2/4/2004 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Clay R <clayr_55@yahoo.com>
>
>I'm going to reluctantly reply to your message and it
>will be my very last post to this list on the subject.
>
>I personally feel like I am being blamed for "not
>knowing" that I shouldn't have switched off the
>alternator switch while the engine was running.
Not at all my friend. There was nothing inherently
wrong with turning the alternator on/off at ANY
time . . . under the best of circumstances it
shouldn't be a problem with ANY alternator on
ANY airplane whether certified or OBAM.
>Sorry if I was taught it could be done on a Cessna...
>old habits die hard and turning off the alternator
>with the engine running shouldn't be OK on one plane
>but not another unless labeled as such. All I
>originally wanted was a warning on Z-24 to keep others
>from making the same mistake I did.
Exactly. My comments were directed not at
you for doing what you were taught but more
toward your teachers who were augmenting the
POH by suggesting a pre-flight activity that
added no value . . . which serendipitously
exposed a vulnerability of an alternator
in an OBAM aircraft.
This happens all the time in both the certified
and OBAM world. Some day when I don't have to
worry about ticking off the folks who sign my
paychecks, I'll be able to relate some pretty
hair-raising anecdotes in the heavily regulated
and conformed world of certified aircraft.
If my tone was skeptical/sarcastic/incredulous
please know it had nothing to do with you
personally. We're all products of our experiences.
I'm singularly fortunate to have a rich history
of experiences.
My job is not to convince you of anything but to
share what I've learned and try to explain how
the simple-ideas piece together to make a system
work/not-work. You're encouraged to use any part of
this effort in which you find value. If you find
something I've offered unconvincing, it's either
because I'm in error or I've failed in my role as
teacher.
I am pleased that you DID reply and make me aware
of your perceptions. It probably happens to others
who feel like they're being chased off. I encourage
you and others who participate on this list to
remember that when the wild-eyed, gray beard in
the Spam Can Capitol gets all excited, it's about
the physics and logic of the matter, not the folks . . .
and in particular folks who are helping me help others
by sharing their own experiences.
Please don't let this experience become inhibiting.
There's a lot of sand and dust to sift to search out
the simple-ideas. I value and appreciate your
participation more than you know. When the dust
finally settles on any discussion, it's my most
sincere wish that we will have sorted out the best
ideas worthy of passing on to others.
Bob . . .
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: OV protection for internally regulated alternators |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21@london.edu>
Clay - thanks VERY much for raising this issue. It has been very helpful to
me. Dont feel bad. Steve.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Clay R
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: OV protection for internally
regulated alternators
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Clay R <clayr_55@yahoo.com>
I'm going to reluctantly reply to your message and it
will be my very last post to this list on the subject.
I personally feel like I am being blamed for "not
knowing" that I shouldn't have switched off the
alternator switch while the engine was running.
Sorry if I was taught it could be done on a Cessna...
old habits die hard and turning off the alternator
with the engine running shouldn't be OK on one plane
but not another unless labeled as such. All I
originally wanted was a warning on Z-24 to keep others
from making the same mistake I did.
--- "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L.
> Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
>
> Z-24 has been published for several years. I have
> to believe there have been a lot of systems
> installed
> and are flying. The questions are:
>
Z-24 may have been published for several years... but
that DOES NOT mean there are a lot of people flying it
yet and there isn't a problem with it.
The time required to build an airplane means that an
idea needs to be out there for a year or two before it
will be flying. When it was published, builders would
need to be BEFORE the wiring stage to implement this
idea easily... those that had already planned and
started their wiring when z-24 was published probably
didn't implement it because the idea was new and would
require rework.
I personally have never encountered another z-24
airplane flying, and neither had the DAR who certifies
experimental planes every week in the Dallas area.
Please, speak up if you have your flying plane wired
like z-24 and have (or have not) seen any issues with
it. Any additional data points will help.
> (1) how many alternators are subject to this
> failure
> because their internal regulators are not rated
> for
> the battery-dump stress?
>
> (2) how many builders have put their particular
> alternator "to the test" by cycling the
> alternator
> control switch while the alternator was working
> hard?
>
I had my EFIS/One turned on (3.5A), the Lightspeed
(1.3A), and the engine was at a slow idle. My battery
was charged, and there were no radios on, no lights,
nothing else... Does this qualify as working hard?
> There are so many variables here that a truly
> quantitative response to your question cannot be
> deduced from what we know.
>
> I'm not sure which alternator Van's is selling.
> I THOUGHT it was an ND alternator. Does anyone
> know?
My alternator from Vans has ND stamped on it.
>
> It does take a combination of conditions to
> trigger the event:
>
> (1) relatively old design for built in regulator
> that is NOT protected from the battery-dump
> transient.
>
> (2) size of the transient is a function of how
> fast alternator is running and at what load
> when the connection between b-lead and battery
> is broken.
>
> When fitted with rudimentary electrical system
> instrumentation (low volts warning light or
> a voltmeter) there is no practical need or
> routinely exercised practice that calls for
> opening the alternator disconnect contactor
> while the engine is running IRRESPECTIVE
> of alternator vulnerability.
>
> If EVERY airplane I've ever rented over the
> past 23 years had been vulnerable to this
> failure mode, I'm 99.9% certain that the mode
> would not have been triggered while I was
> using the airplane . . . i.e. I've never
> had a situation arise where it was valuable
> or even interesting to operate the switch
> with the engine running.
Rental airplanes and OBAM with z-24 are different...
Rentals have externally regulated alternators without
a contactor on the B-lead.
>
> At the moment, my sense is that given the way
> MOST of us were taught (or not) on how
> to operate the airplane, the risks to even
> vulnerable alternators is quite low.
>
> The risk can be driven essentially zero once
> the magnitude of the transient is characterized
> and prophylactic measures implemented. At this
> point in the investigation, it would be a sad
> thing for a builder to jerk his perfectly working
> alternator off in knee-jerk response to truthful
> but poorly quantified warnings from well meaning
> folks who don't understand the system.
>
> Bob . . .
If I'm the one giving the truthful but poorly
quantified warning, and don't understand the system,
I'm sorry for being well-meaning and bringing it up.
In retrospect, It would have been less stressful to
quietly switch to an externally regulated alternator
and left it for someone else to bring up. From the
amount of email I've received, people seem to be happy
I've shared my experience with the group.
I do believe that once the problem is fully tested and
understood a fix will be found for z-24 (or no problem
will be found at all.. it was user error), and
everyone will be happy once again. We live and learn
and move on.
For now Bob's right, don't change your alternator,
just don't switch it off unless you want to help with
the testing. ;-)
-Clay
__________________________________
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Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: start up/shut down procedure |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 01:41 PM 2/4/2004 -0600, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ned Thomas" <315@cox.net>
>
>Don't know if this is pertainant to this thread but I understand that once
>the SD-8 is energized it remains energized producing power until it stops
>rotating.
>
>It hasn't been made clear to me whether this is detrimental to have it
>running energized while disconnected from everything??
No, the SD-8 is a permanent magnet alternator. It's ALWAYS producing
output power whether or not it is turned on or loaded. At this time
I'm unaware of any risk to the alternator system for operating it
in the unloaded mode. There are airplanes flying the All-Electric-Airplane-
on-a-Budget system with hundreds of trouble free hours on them.
I had one builder write a year or more ago to tell me that the
SD-8 in his airplane had been called upon to do its job after
a wire became unhooked in his main alternator system. He said
the system performed as expected.
Bob . . .
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: start up/shut down procedure |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" <mprather@spro.net>
Hi Bob,
You said that the damaging voltage dump conditions happens when the
alternator is under significant load, and is suddenly disconnected
from that load. I gather that the problem is that some of the
regulators don't pull down the field current fast enough to reduce the
output of the alternator. Is that right? Or is that there is
signficant inductive stored energy in the output of the alternator,
and driving the output current to zero by disconnecting the alternator
causese the output voltage to spike?
Either way, would you say that the alternator can safely be
disconnected when its output current is low (0A)? Have to wait until
the battery is charged, and the pitot heat/nav lights are off...
I also wonder how large the disconnect relay needs to be if attempting
to disconnect the alternator from the bus causes such a large
transient. Will the small relays that you sell be up to the task for
an airplane that doesn't have a starter (ie, no large contactor)?
One final question: What effect will the TVS have should the atl/reg
suffer from an over voltage event, not related to turning off the alt
switch while the engine is running? Will the TVS have a turn-on
voltage higher than a typical overvoltage value? I suppose this may
be a moot point, since if the regulator cooks, causing an ov even,
I may not care what happens to the TVS, as long as the crow bar
stuff works.
None of these questions is of earth shattering significance, as it
appears that you fully understand what is going on. However, I am
interested in the topic out of curiousity.
I am interested in seeing any data you take with regard to how long
the battery/load dump even lasts, and how much total engergy is
dissipated in the process.
Regards,
Matt Prather
N34RD
Message 20
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kent Sorensen <kents@snak.com>
I keep seeing the acronym OBAM. It 's obviously referring to amateur
built aircraft as opposed to certified ones. What does it stand for ?
Owner Built Amateur Made or something ?
Kent
Message 21
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
In a message dated 2/4/04 3:26:07 PM Central Standard Time, kents@snak.com
writes:
Owner Built Amateur Made or something ?
Owner Built And Maintained
Do Not Archive
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Airpark LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: OV protection for internally regulated |
alternators
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dj Merrill <deej@thayer.dartmouth.edu>
Steve Sampson wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21@london.edu>
>
> Clay - thanks VERY much for raising this issue. It has been very helpful to
> me. Dont feel bad. Steve.
And educational for me. It is good to
question things less we become too complacent... ;-)
Please continue to do so. Unless questioned,
we generally take things our flight instructors teach
us as gospel. Flight instructors are people, too, and
might make mistakes or assumptions about things that
aren't entirely true. This is a great forum for
flushing out those myths about electrical related
items in aircraft. I usually lurk, rather than
post, and I've learned tons! :-)
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill Thayer School of Engineering
ThUG Sr. Unix Systems Administrator 8000 Cummings Hall
deej@thayer.dartmouth.edu - N1JOV Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH 03755
"On the side of the software box, in the 'System Requirements' section,
it said 'Requires Windows 95 or better'. So I installed Linux." -Anonymous
Message 23
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|
| Subject: | Alternator Recommendation and Conversions |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ned Thomas" <315@cox.net>
I thought I would recount my experience with Powermaster for those of you
looking for an alternator. I would also suggest B&C. Powermaster is an
automotive aftermarket firm specializing in racing products. You can buy
them thru Summit and others and sometimes on eBay.
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=PWM%2D8162
After I experienced the OV on the RV6A, I took the alternator in to the
local O'Reilly's and they put it on the test stand. It immediately produced
25 volts. I called the vendor, powermaster, and explained the situation.
They said send it back and we'll repair it. They repaired it for free and
ran it thru their tests and sent me their results tabulated and graphed.
This alternator is a version of the Denso and was a "one wire" alternator.
Powermaster told me they could configure it so that an additional wire would
be available to turn on / off the alternator. So when I incorporated the
Z-24 suggestions to the rewiring it worked fine. I had no problem with this
alternator wired with the OV protection as suggested by Z-24.
It was a 50 amp model 8162 and was very light at 5.68-lbs. It has what they
call a "heat dispersant coating" that is black.
http://www.powermastermotorsports.com/Racing/Denso_Alternators/denso_alternators.html
More details:
http://www.powermastermotorsports.com/Tech_Help/FAQ_s_-_Racing_Alternators/faq_s_-_racing_alternators.html#race3
For those interested the test data was:
Max output power: 695 Watts
Max output power under full load 53 Amps
Field current 0.01 Amps
Turn on Speed (less than): 2600RPM
Leakage current tested @ 12 volts: 0.75 Amps
Ripple current @ 2500 RPM: 11 Amps
Pulley ratio: 2.05
There is a graph of Amps vs RPM and a Scope pattern at 2500 RPM that looks
like a sine wavefrom +- about 7Amps
I don't know what much of this means but it was nice to have the data......
Although the B&C weighs slightly more at 6.1 lbs it might be a better
option.
http://www.bandcspecialty.com/L40desc.html
http://www.bandcspecialty.com/L40-out.PDF
To convert and internally regulated alternator to and external regulated
alternator I found the following link quite helpful:
http://www.miramarcollege.net/programs/avim/faculty/north/alternator/index.htm
Best Regards,
Ned
Message 24
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ageless Wings" <harley@agelesswings.com>
Hi, Kent...
I'll save Bob the effort this time! <G> You are close....it's Owner Built
and Maintained.
Harley
Long EZ N28EZ...
in the hanger, getting sanded and primed!
Harley Dixon
Website: www.AgelessWings.com
Email: harley@agelesswings.com
Henrietta, NY
USA
|-----Original Message-----
|From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
|[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Kent
|Sorensen
|Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2004 4:24 PM
|To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
|Subject: AeroElectric-List: OBAM ?
|
|
|--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kent Sorensen <kents@snak.com>
|
|I keep seeing the acronym OBAM. It 's obviously referring to amateur
|built aircraft as opposed to certified ones. What does it stand for ?
|
|Owner Built Amateur Made or something ?
|
|Kent
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Message 25
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| Subject: | OV protection for internally regulated alternators |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 07:57 PM 2/4/2004 +0000, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Steve Sampson"
><SSampson.SLN21@london.edu>
>
>Michael/Bob, The alternator VANS shipped to me IS a refurb Nippon Denso
>(Spelling?) alternator. It is the one on p7 of the 2003 accesory catalogue.
>I had suggested the 35Amp externally regulated one but they suggested this
>was a better bet and lighter.
>
>Steve.
Thanks Steve. It may be that "refurb" regulators are the
real root cause of the vulnerability.
Bob . . .
Message 26
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|
ernators
| Subject: | OV protection for internally regulated alt |
ernators
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Beckman, Rick" <Rick.Beckman@ATK.COM>
>I personally feel like I am being blamed .......
Please don't let this experience become inhibiting.
There's a lot of sand and dust to sift to search out
the simple-ideas. I value and appreciate your
participation more than you know. When the dust
finally settles on any discussion, it's my most
sincere wish that we will have sorted out the best
ideas worthy of passing on to others.
Bob . . .
Bob,.... Thanks for that excellent reply, further
assuring your public that
no matter what the discussion, it never becomes a personal
grudge match with you
and others involved. I, personally, have gleaned a wealth of
information from all
the Matronics sites to which I subscribe, definitely this
one! Keep on keepin' on!
See
ya Saturday! God Bless!
Rick
Message 27
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Branstrom" <danbranstrom@verizon.net>
Owner Built And Maintained. I asked the same question a while ago. ;
)
Dan Branstrom
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kent Sorensen" <kents@snak.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: OBAM ?
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kent Sorensen <kents@snak.com>
>
> I keep seeing the acronym OBAM. It 's obviously referring to amateur
> built aircraft as opposed to certified ones. What does it stand for ?
>
> Owner Built Amateur Made or something ?
>
> Kent
>
>
Message 28
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jon Finley" <jon@finleyweb.net>
Owner Built And Maintained.
It has confused many of us. I love it though. I've used it many times
lately and it is always received much better than Experimental and
Homebuilt by the "non-flying folk."
Jon
DO NOT ARCHIVE
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kent
Sorensen
Subject: AeroElectric-List: OBAM ?
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kent Sorensen <kents@snak.com>
I keep seeing the acronym OBAM. It 's obviously referring to amateur
built aircraft as opposed to certified ones. What does it stand for ?
Owner Built Amateur Made or something ?
Kent
Message 29
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ernators
| Subject: | OV protection for internally regulated alt |
ernators
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bartrim, Todd" <sbartrim@mail.canfor.ca>
> Some day when I don't have to
> worry about ticking off the folks who sign my
> paychecks, I'll be able to relate some pretty
> hair-raising anecdotes in the heavily regulated
> and conformed world of certified aircraft.
>
Now, I'd buy that book. :-)
Do Not Archive
S. Todd Bartrim
Turbo 13B
RX-9endurance
C-FSTB
http://www3.telus.net/haywire/RV-9/C-FSTB.htm
"Imagination is more important than knowledge"
-Albert Einstein
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<META NAME"Generator" CONTENT"MS Exchange Server version 5.5.2653.12">
RE: AeroElectric-List: OV protection for internally regulated alternators
Some day when I don't have to
worry about ticking off the folks who sign my
paychecks, I'll be able to relate some pretty
hair-raising anecdotes in the heavily regulated
and conformed world of certified aircraft.
Now, I'd buy that book. :-)
Do Not Archive
S. Todd Bartrim
Turbo 13B
RX-9endurance
C-FSTB
http://www3.telus.net/haywire/RV-9/C-FSTB.htm
Imagination is more important than knowledge
-Albert Einstein
Message 30
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dave Morris <dave@davemorris.com>
At 04:24 PM 2/4/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kent Sorensen <kents@snak.com>
>
>I keep seeing the acronym OBAM. It 's obviously referring to amateur
>built aircraft as opposed to certified ones. What does it stand for ?
It's the sound made by an airplane builder when he discovers tab A does not
fit in slot B.
Dave Morris
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: OV protection for internally regulated alternators |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Joe Dubner <jdubner@yahoo.com>
On 04-Feb-04 11:48 Clay R wrote:
> I personally feel like I am being blamed for "not
> knowing" that I shouldn't have switched off the
> alternator switch while the engine was running.
[... deleted ..]
> Please, speak up if you have your flying plane wired
> like z-24 and have (or have not) seen any issues with
> it. Any additional data points will help.
Clay, if there's blame to be assigned (lets hope there isn't), I'll take
some too. My Long-EZ is wired like Z-24 and I've turned off my
alternator in flight many times and under vaying load conditions.
My reasons may not pass muster but what the heck, it's my airplane.
Some of these reasons are: 1) testing the operation of the alternator
contactor I added; I was horrified to discover that my purchased Long-EZ
had no way to disable the alternator in case of an electrical fire. 2)
Troubleshooting a noisy Aerospace Logic EGT indicator; it worked OK on
battery but noise from the alternator caused readings to vary. 3)
Simulating alternator failure in flight; I wanted to see what it was
like to fly battery only to my destination before it actually happened.
No big deal.
FWIW, my alternator has no identifying marks other than a "Hitachi"
label. Perhaps I've just been lucky but I didn't know this was an issue
either.
Thank you for bringing this up and sharing your experience with the group.
--
Joe
Long-EZ 821RP
Gilbert, AZ
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: start up/shut down procedure |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "AI Nut" <ainut@earthlink.net>
Web site?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Johnson" <ricklj@silverstar.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: start up/shut down procedure
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Rick Johnson
<ricklj@silverstar.com>
>
> Bob: I am wiring my RV7 according to your Z-13 and Z-24 diagrams. The
> only exception is I am using a 2-3 switch for my battery/alternator field
> switch instead of your 2-10. I would like to know what the proper start
up
> - system check - shut down procedure should be. How should I check to see
> if the SD-8 alternator is working correctly after the engine is running?
> What will the ammeter on that circuit read if the auxiliary alternator
> switch is off? Sounds like after start up, I wouldn't want to switch off
> the battery/primary alternator then switch on the e-bus and auxiliary
> alternator to see if it is carrying the system load properly. I'm
confused
> and would rather get some good advice from you before ruining some
> expensive equipment. And thanks for your fantastic web site and all the
> great advice you dispense here.
>
> rick
>
>
Message 33
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| Subject: | OV protection for internally regulated alternators |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 04:36 PM 2/4/2004 -0700, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Joe Dubner <jdubner@yahoo.com>
>
>On 04-Feb-04 11:48 Clay R wrote:
>
> > I personally feel like I am being blamed for "not
> > knowing" that I shouldn't have switched off the
> > alternator switch while the engine was running.
>
>[... deleted ..]
>
> > Please, speak up if you have your flying plane wired
> > like z-24 and have (or have not) seen any issues with
> > it. Any additional data points will help.
>
>Clay, if there's blame to be assigned (lets hope there isn't), I'll take
>some too. My Long-EZ is wired like Z-24 and I've turned off my
>alternator in flight many times and under vaying load conditions.
. . . if your alternator is a junk-yard take-off, it's
quite likely to have the factory original voltage regulator
in it. It's hard to tell without a teardown under experienced
eyeballs.
>My reasons may not pass muster but what the heck, it's my airplane.
>Some of these reasons are: 1) testing the operation of the alternator
>contactor I added; I was horrified to discover that my purchased Long-EZ
>had no way to disable the alternator in case of an electrical fire. 2)
>Troubleshooting a noisy Aerospace Logic EGT indicator; it worked OK on
>battery but noise from the alternator caused readings to vary. 3)
>Simulating alternator failure in flight; I wanted to see what it was
>like to fly battery only to my destination before it actually happened.
> No big deal.
. . . and it shouldn't be.
>FWIW, my alternator has no identifying marks other than a "Hitachi"
>label. Perhaps I've just been lucky but I didn't know this was an issue
>either.
>
>Thank you for bringing this up and sharing your experience with the group.
Thanks for your input Joe.
Bob . . .
Message 34
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 05:02 PM 2/4/2004 -0600, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dave Morris <dave@davemorris.com>
>
>At 04:24 PM 2/4/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kent Sorensen <kents@snak.com>
> >
> >I keep seeing the acronym OBAM. It 's obviously referring to amateur
> >built aircraft as opposed to certified ones. What does it stand for ?
>
>It's the sound made by an airplane builder when he discovers tab A does not
>fit in slot B.
Good one Dave! I'll have to remember that. I'm working
on a white paper for the small aircraft directorate dealing
with ageing aircraft issues. We'll start with alternators
and batteries. I'm trying to drive home the point that
aside from mechanical issues where things break loose and
jam other things, neither of these items is by itself
critical to flight. I've introduced the term OBAM to the
FAA in this paper. Never can tell, it might germinate and
take hold. The NEXT step is "CBOM" . . . commercially built,
owner maintained. My dream machine is a Piper Pacer or Tri-Pacer
with NICE front seats, a hell-of-a-cargo pad where the back
seats used to be and a Z-13 electrical system.
I think I could have a really nice mogas, x-country machine
for well under $40K with a whole lot less build-time than
starting from scratch.
Bob . . .
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: OV protection for internally regulated |
alternators / ND alternator
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jim Oke <wjoke@shaw.ca> alternators /
ND alternator
After following the Vans Nippon Denso saga for a day or so, I wonder if
anyone can comment on the smaller Denso alternator that AeroSport Power
supplies with their engines as an option.
The one I received has a Nippon Denso tag as P/N 18504-6220 although it
seems to be manufactured by Ishikawajima as P/N 100211-1680 and marketed by
Denso. It has a B+ supply and can be run on a "single wire" control basis
although there is a warning light connection as well.
The unit has worked well in my limited flying to date (RV-6A). I am using a
homebrew OVM with a B field contactor.
And, no, I haven't experimented with a "battery dump" failure mode
experiment as yet.
Jim Oke
RV-6A
RV-3
Wpg, MB
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21@london.edu>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: OV protection for internally regulated
alternators / ND alternator
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Steve Sampson"
<SSampson.SLN21@london.edu>
>
> Michael/Bob, The alternator VANS shipped to me IS a refurb Nippon Denso
> (Spelling?) alternator. It is the one on p7 of the 2003 accesory
catalogue.
> I had suggested the 35Amp externally regulated one but they suggested this
> was a better bet and lighter.
>
> Steve.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
> L. Nuckolls, III
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: OV protection for internally regulated
> alternators
>
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
> <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
> At 07:15 PM 2/3/2004 -0800, you wrote:
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Michel Therrien
<mtherr@yahoo.com>
> >
> >That battery dump damage thing... is this only related
> >with the alternators from Vans, or any automotive
> >alternators (including the Nippodensos found in
> >japanese cars)?
> >
> >Is this a certainty that it will fail each time, or is
> >it once in a lifetime that this will happen?
> >
> >Thanks!
> >
> >Michel
>
> Z-24 has been published for several years. I have
> to believe there have been a lot of systems installed
> and are flying. The questions are:
>
> (1) how many alternators are subject to this failure
> because their internal regulators are not rated for
> the battery-dump stress?
>
> (2) how many builders have put their particular
> alternator "to the test" by cycling the alternator
> control switch while the alternator was working
> hard?
>
> There are so many variables here that a truly
> quantitative response to your question cannot be
> deduced from what we know.
>
> I'm not sure which alternator Van's is selling.
> I THOUGHT it was an ND alternator. Does anyone
> know?
>
> It does take a combination of conditions to
> trigger the event:
>
> (1) relatively old design for built in regulator
> that is NOT protected from the battery-dump
> transient.
>
> (2) size of the transient is a function of how
> fast alternator is running and at what load
> when the connection between b-lead and battery
> is broken.
>
> When fitted with rudimentary electrical system
> instrumentation (low volts warning light or
> a voltmeter) there is no practical need or
> routinely exercised practice that calls for
> opening the alternator disconnect contactor
> while the engine is running IRRESPECTIVE
> of alternator vulnerability.
>
> If EVERY airplane I've ever rented over the
> past 23 years had been vulnerable to this
> failure mode, I'm 99.9% certain that the mode
> would not have been triggered while I was
> using the airplane . . . i.e. I've never
> had a situation arise where it was valuable
> or even interesting to operate the switch
> with the engine running.
>
> At the moment, my sense is that given the way
> MOST of us were taught (or not) on how
> to operate the airplane, the risks to even
> vulnerable alternators is quite low.
>
> The risk can be driven essentially zero once
> the magnitude of the transient is characterized
> and prophylactic measures implemented. At this
> point in the investigation, it would be a sad
> thing for a builder to jerk his perfectly working
> alternator off in knee-jerk response to truthful
> but poorly quantified warnings from well meaning
> folks who don't understand the system.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> ---
> Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
>
> ---
>
>
Message 36
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| Subject: | BNC bulkhead pass-through connectors |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" <lhelming@sigecom.net>
In this reference, http://www.mpja.com/listitems.asp?dept=93&main=83 under
the sub heading of GENDER CHANGER BNC CONNECTOR are two items that I do not
understand and would like some help with what ISOLATED and NOT Isolated
means with respect to BNC connectors.
Larry
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: BNC bulkhead pass-through connectors |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dave Morris <dave@davemorris.com>
I'm relatively sure it describes whether or not the outer conductor (where
the shield connects) is isolated from the panel mounting hardware or not.
Dave Morris
At 06:16 PM 2/4/2004, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming"
><lhelming@sigecom.net>
>
>In this reference, http://www.mpja.com/listitems.asp?dept=93&main=83 under
>the sub heading of GENDER CHANGER BNC CONNECTOR are two items that I do not
>understand and would like some help with what ISOLATED and NOT Isolated
>means with respect to BNC connectors.
>
>Larry
>
>
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: Converting a Denso Alternator #2 |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss <chaskuss@bellsouth.net>
At 10:51 PM 2/3/2004, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Hi There <rv90619@yahoo.com>
>
>
>I have a couple of Denso Alternators that I want to convert to nonregulated alternators.
I've seen a few different sites that discribe how to do this, but
not one that has the same type of regulator that are on my alternators. Both
alternators I have have a plastic regulator/plug housing. There are cooling
The regulator bolts to the diodes and brushes. I'm sure someone has done one
of these alternators, I was at the junk yard today and many of the import cars
used an alternator of this disign. I have some photos if that helps.
>
>
>Thanks for any help.
>
>
>Cameron
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: Converting a Denso Alternator #3 |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss <chaskuss@bellsouth.net>
Cameron,
As you will read in the article, the author shows how to convert both the Nippon
Denso models and the Mitsubishi units as well.
Charlie
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Hi There <rv90619@yahoo.com>
>
>
>I have a couple of Denso Alternators that I want to convert to nonregulated alternators.
I've seen a few different sites that discribe how to do this, but
not one that has the same type of regulator that are on my alternators. Both
alternators I have have a plastic regulator/plug housing. There are cooling
The regulator bolts to the diodes and brushes. I'm sure someone has done one
of these alternators, I was at the junk yard today and many of the import cars
used an alternator of this disign. I have some photos if that helps.
>
>
>Thanks for any help.
>
>
>Cameron
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: Converting a Denso Alternator #3 |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss <chaskuss@bellsouth.net>
Sorry folks,
These last 2 posts were intended for Cameron off list. I've had a long hard day.
I'm now "officially" brain dead! :-(
Charlie Kuss
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss <chaskuss@bellsouth.net>
>
>Cameron,
> As you will read in the article, the author shows how to convert both the Nippon
Denso models and the Mitsubishi units as well.
>Charlie
>
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Hi There <rv90619@yahoo.com>
>>
>>
>>I have a couple of Denso Alternators that I want to convert to nonregulated alternators.
I've seen a few different sites that discribe how to do this, but
not one that has the same type of regulator that are on my alternators. Both
alternators I have have a plastic regulator/plug housing. There are cooling
The regulator bolts to the diodes and brushes. I'm sure someone has done one
of these alternators, I was at the junk yard today and many of the import cars
used an alternator of this disign. I have some photos if that helps.
>>
>>
>>Thanks for any help.
>>
>>
>>Cameron
>
>
Message 41
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|
"<rv-list@matronics.com>"
<mstewart@qa.butler.com>
| Subject: | EMI solution for Dynon? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
http://www.4emi.com
Has anybody seen or played with these? Sure seems like an incredibly
elegant way to go -- IF it works!
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
Message 42
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| Subject: | Re: start up/shut down procedure |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 06:12 PM 2/4/2004 -0600, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "AI Nut" <ainut@earthlink.net>
>
>Web site?
http://www.aeroelectric.com
Bob . . .
Message 43
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| Subject: | OV protection for internally regulated alternators |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 06:54 PM 2/4/2004 -0600, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jim Oke <wjoke@shaw.ca>
>alternators / ND alternator
>
>After following the Vans Nippon Denso saga for a day or so, I wonder if
>anyone can comment on the smaller Denso alternator that AeroSport Power
>supplies with their engines as an option.
>
>The one I received has a Nippon Denso tag as P/N 18504-6220 although it
>seems to be manufactured by Ishikawajima as P/N 100211-1680 and marketed by
>Denso. It has a B+ supply and can be run on a "single wire" control basis
>although there is a warning light connection as well.
>
>The unit has worked well in my limited flying to date (RV-6A). I am using a
>homebrew OVM with a B field contactor.
>
>And, no, I haven't experimented with a "battery dump" failure mode
>experiment as yet.
It's difficult to comment on any particular alternator until
we're sure as to true root cause of the failures. The working
hypothesis is that after-market regulators used by some
re-build shops may not be as robust as the factory originals
by ND and others.
Probably the most revealing question to ask your alternator
supplier . . . is this a new alternator or rebuilt? Not that
rebuilt are automatically suspect . . . there are undoubtedly
after-market regulators equal to OEM. Given that companies
like ND sell MILLIONS of alternators per year, they can't
afford a screwup that saves a few pennies per unit but
opens doors to a ton of warranty claims. The after-market
regulator folks are not so exposed. Their warranty covers
only the regulator that costs them under $1 to build and
they can always point to the fried chip and cry "load
dump!". How many folks are going to know it's something
the regulator SHOULD be able to tolerate?
Don't do any "experimenting" until we have some data
to work with. I've had conversation with two sets of
folks about some testing. It won't happen until late next
week at the earliest.
Bob . . .
Message 44
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| Subject: | Re: Connector for elevator trim servo |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 02:12 PM 2/4/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: N67BT@aol.com
>
>Photos and info on the Hirose connector I plan to use for the elevator trim
>servo are posted on my web site.
>
>http://users.aol.com/n67bt
>
>This thing looks like just the ticket. What do you think Bob N.?
>
>They cost around $14 for the pair.
Hirose is a good house. I've used their stuff on
several occasions when I needed lots of conductors
in a small package.
Bob . . .
Message 45
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|
| Subject: | Re: BNC bulkhead pass-through connectors |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Richard E. Tasker" <retasker@optonline.net>
That is correct. Isolated means that the whole assembly that the BNC
connectors connect to is electrically isolated from the mounting
flange. Non-isolated means that the mounting flange is connected to the
part of the connector that connects to the shield of the coax.
Dick Tasker, RV9A #90572
Dave Morris wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dave Morris <dave@davemorris.com>
>
>I'm relatively sure it describes whether or not the outer conductor (where
>the shield connects) is isolated from the panel mounting hardware or not.
>
>Dave Morris
>
>
>At 06:16 PM 2/4/2004, you wrote:
>
>
>
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming"
>><lhelming@sigecom.net>
>>
>>In this reference, http://www.mpja.com/listitems.asp?dept=93&main=83 under
>>the sub heading of GENDER CHANGER BNC CONNECTOR are two items that I do not
>>understand and would like some help with what ISOLATED and NOT Isolated
>>means with respect to BNC connectors.
>>
>>Larry
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Message 46
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| Subject: | Re: EMI solution for Dynon? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 07:39 PM 2/4/2004 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
>
>http://www.4emi.com
>
>Has anybody seen or played with these? Sure seems like an incredibly
>elegant way to go -- IF it works!
They do work. I've had occasion to use them a couple
of times in the past 20 years. Problem is that they're
not cheap . . . and they use the same filtering technique
on all pins whether the pin is a source/victim potential
or not.
For the most part, I've found it more economical to filter
the pins that needed filtering with components appropriate
to that pin's signal duties.
Bob . . .
Message 47
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| Subject: | Re: EMI solution for Dynon? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dave Morris <dave@davemorris.com>
I'll believe it when I see the spectrum analyzer output. EMI is a complex
problem and I don't think those little things will do much good.
Dave Morris
At 09:39 PM 2/4/2004, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
>
>http://www.4emi.com
>
>Has anybody seen or played with these? Sure seems like an incredibly
>elegant way to go -- IF it works!
>
>)_( Dan
>RV-7 N714D
>http://www.rvproject.com
>
>
Message 48
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| Subject: | Re: Converting a Denso Alternator |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jerzy Krasinski <krasinski@direcway.com>
I opened my internaly regulated Mitsubishi, and I found one irregular
block containing the brush holders and regulator, all epoxy potted
inside a fragile looking piece of plastic. I thought about milling out
the regulator but it is very difficult to hold that thing in the mill,
and it looked that I would have to make a new brush holder from
scratch. I have spent a day looking at it and I gave up. I put the
alternator back together and I will try to attach transorbs or a big
varistor for protection. The problem is that information about the
transients included in http://www.sto-p.com/pfp/pfp-transients.htm#load
is showing voltage approaching 100V and internal resistance of the
source between 0.1 and 1 ohm. That would imply that current through the
varistor or transorb limiting output voltage to several volts could
reach several hundreds amps. That does not seem to make any sense, I
would expect that the alternator would try to make the output current
equal to the current just before removal of the load, and such current
would reduce the peak voltage down to the normal output voltage.
I will connect the protective elements and we will see if it works.
Anyway, my Mitsubishi is nearly impossible to convert in a simple way.
But maybe somebody solved that problem? I would appreciate some info.
Thank you,
Jerzy
Mark Steitle wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mark Steitle <msteitle@mail.utexas.edu>
>
>At 07:51 PM 2/3/2004 -0800, you wrote:
>
>
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Hi There <rv90619@yahoo.com>
>>
>>
>>I have a couple of Denso Alternators that I want to convert to
>>nonregulated alternators.
>>
>>
>
>Cameron,
>I posted this procedure a while back, but couldn't find it in the
>archives. So, here is the procedure I used to convert my two ND
>alternators to external regulator mode.
>
>Mark
>=============================================
>Bob N. strongly recommends using externally regulated alternators only, or
>modifying the internal regulator models so as to allow it to be shut down
>if necessary. (Supposedly, a voltage run-away can happen in a few seconds.)
>Problem is that the articles I read explaining how to convert the
>internally regulated alternators to external regulation didn't work. (Did I
>do something wrong?) I think I have worked out a simpler solution. The
>objective here is to isolate the field windings from the diode bridge so
>that the alternator can then be externally controlled.
>
>This is how I went about converting my alternators. First I removed the
>back cover, exposing the diode bridge, regulator assy. and brush holder.
>Then removed the regulator and brush holder and threw the regulator assy in
>the trash. Next ........................
>
>
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