Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:03 AM - Schematics question (Charlie Kuss)
2. 06:18 AM - Re: Manual Battery Switch (Shaun Simpkins)
3. 06:28 AM - Re: Schematics question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 09:19 AM - Re: Schematics question (Mickey Coggins)
5. 09:33 AM - Re: Re: Manual Battery Switch (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 10:14 AM - Re: Re: Manual Battery Switch (Rob Housman)
7. 11:31 AM - Re: Re: Manual Battery Switch (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
8. 12:43 PM - Re: Columbia 350 electrical system (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 03:02 PM - Data logging with an Ipaq (Hi There)
10. 03:43 PM - Re: Data logging with an Ipaq (Kevin Horton)
11. 04:48 PM - Re: Data logging with an Ipaq (Chad Robinson)
12. 06:12 PM - Re: Data logging with an Ipaq (Dave Hyde)
13. 06:15 PM - Re: Data logging with an Ipaq (n3eu@comcast.net)
14. 06:49 PM - Klixon Circuit Breakers (Joseph Kearns, DO,MPH,FACOEM)
15. 08:43 PM - Re: Klixon Circuit Breakers (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
16. 09:23 PM - Re: Control Stick Switch Override (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
17. 09:46 PM - Re: Schematics question (Charlie Kuss)
18. 11:30 PM - Bussmann Fuseblock (Hans - Peter Reusser)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Schematics question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss <chaskuss@bellsouth.net>
Listers,
I intend to install a 15 pin D Sub connector to allow easy removal of both the
pilot and co-pilot control sticks on my RV-8A project. I'm using the Ray Allen
G307 stick grips to control 2 axis electric trim, electric flaps, PTT, & Com
channel flip flop. While drawing up the schematic in AutoCAD last night, I wondered
what would be the best way to diagram this connection? I thought that placing
2 of the D Sub pin out connectors that Bob provides in his AutoCAD SYMBOLS
file next to each other would make sense. Is this the way it should be done?
Is there an accepted norm for this nomenclature?
Charlie Kuss
PS I'll happily send copies of what I've done to anyone who is interested. I'd
also like to see what others have done with schematic CAD drawings to get ideas.
My thanks to Mark Phillips for sharing his drawings with me.
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Manual Battery Switch |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Shaun Simpkins" <shauns@hevanet.com>
On 3/09/04, Bob Nuckolls wrote:
>why the push for low power dissipation in a battery contactor?
Us folks building known-icing capable Rotaxen aircraft with whole-cabin ANR systems
get really fixated on power drain ;-)
But Bob's right - the current drain of the contactor is more an irritant than a
concern for
most aircraft. If you still want one after doing the load analysis, the Ciitech
product is a
possibility.
Shaun
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Schematics question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 09:00 AM 3/11/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss <chaskuss@bellsouth.net>
>
>Listers,
> I intend to install a 15 pin D Sub connector to allow easy removal of
> both the pilot and co-pilot control sticks on my RV-8A project. I'm using
> the Ray Allen G307 stick grips to control 2 axis electric trim, electric
> flaps, PTT, & Com channel flip flop. While drawing up the schematic in
> AutoCAD last night, I wondered what would be the best way to diagram this
> connection? I thought that placing 2 of the D Sub pin out connectors that
> Bob provides in his AutoCAD SYMBOLS file next to each other would make
> sense. Is this the way it should be done? Is there an accepted norm for
> this nomenclature?
Schematics are a language. ALL languages come in multiple
dialects. The first goal is that YOU understand what you've
recorded both for present task of configuring your system and
future tasks of maintaining it. I've found that schematics
are a universal language in spite of dialects. I was once tasked
with teaching Japanese technicians how to service a product
I was building. Their English was marginal, my Japanese was
zilch. But because we understood video, test equipment and
electronics in general, schematics and demonstration were all
we needed to share useful information.
There are few "norms" for this business . . . draw it to
make sense to you. Any technician looking at your drawing
in the future will know exactly what you're "talking" about.
Bob . . .
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Schematics question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
A bit off your topic, but won't a 15 pin d sub
be a bit big for this application?
Mickey
>> I intend to install a 15 pin D Sub connector to allow easy removal of
>> both the pilot and co-pilot control sticks on my RV-8A project. ...
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Manual Battery Switch |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 06:23 AM 3/11/2004 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Shaun Simpkins" <shauns@hevanet.com>
>
>On 3/09/04, Bob Nuckolls wrote:
> >why the push for low power dissipation in a battery contactor?
>
>Us folks building known-icing capable Rotaxen aircraft with whole-cabin
>ANR systems
>get really fixated on power drain ;-)
KNOWN ICING???????? Who is building a Rotax powered machine to
be offered as capable of flying into known ice?
Don't know what jurisdiction is passing judgement on this
project but there's almost no way anything powered by
Rotax with 18A of snort is going to get this capability.
If we're talking about pitot heat, that's not for flight
into known ice but for temporary flight in ice you didn't
know was there . . . hopefully to sustain instruments
while you take steps necessary to get the !#@$!@#$ out
of there very soon.
Given the very serious effects of ice on parts of the
airplane other than pitot tube, the more prudent modus
operandi seems to be "stay out of ice" . . . around this
part of the world, we "stay out of thunderstorms" too.
It really helps keep the fun in flying. You might
suggest to these folks that the 8A need to run effective
pitot heat might have much better uses keeping a Dynon
EFIS lit up, or something equally attractive.
Bob . . .
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Manual Battery Switch |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rob Housman" <RobH@hyperion-ef.com>
Er, um, Bob . . . . he was pulling your leg while mocking the "toy"
generator in the Rotax.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
Europa XS Tri-Gear A070
Airframe complete
Irvine, CA
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Manual Battery Switch
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 06:23 AM 3/11/2004 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Shaun Simpkins"
<shauns@hevanet.com>
>
>On 3/09/04, Bob Nuckolls wrote:
> >why the push for low power dissipation in a battery contactor?
>
>Us folks building known-icing capable Rotaxen aircraft with whole-cabin
>ANR systems
>get really fixated on power drain ;-)
KNOWN ICING???????? Who is building a Rotax powered machine to
be offered as capable of flying into known ice?
Don't know what jurisdiction is passing judgement on this
project but there's almost no way anything powered by
Rotax with 18A of snort is going to get this capability.
If we're talking about pitot heat, that's not for flight
into known ice but for temporary flight in ice you didn't
know was there . . . hopefully to sustain instruments
while you take steps necessary to get the !#@$!@#$ out
of there very soon.
Given the very serious effects of ice on parts of the
airplane other than pitot tube, the more prudent modus
operandi seems to be "stay out of ice" . . . around this
part of the world, we "stay out of thunderstorms" too.
It really helps keep the fun in flying. You might
suggest to these folks that the 8A need to run effective
pitot heat might have much better uses keeping a Dynon
EFIS lit up, or something equally attractive.
Bob . . .
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Manual Battery Switch |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 10:13 AM 3/11/2004 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rob Housman" <RobH@hyperion-ef.com>
>
>Er, um, Bob . . . . he was pulling your leg while mocking the "toy"
>generator in the Rotax.
>
>
>Best regards,
oops . . . stuck my foot into that one.
Bob . . .
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Columbia 350 electrical system |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 10:08 PM 3/9/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan O'Brien" <danobrien@cox.net>
>
>I posted this message last November and didn't receive any
>responses. Lancair and Cirrus would seem to be interesting case studies
>for modern electrical design, since they've both gone through the
>certification of new airplanes quite recently. Of course, regulators of
>certified planes don't necessarily have it all right, but...still
>interesting to see what the newbies came up with. Thought I'd post it
>again in case anyone has any thoughts.
>.......................................
>Lancair has put the information manual for its dual-electric Columbia 350
>up on its website. I put a copy of the schematic for the electrical system
>at http://members.cox.net/dansweb/350_schematic.pdf (the complete manual is
>at http://www.lancair.com/files/downloads/350_INFO.PDF).
>
>Natural questions relate to how and why their architecture differs from
>Bob's Z-14. I notice three main differences: 1) There is a separate
>avionics bus that offers "secondary protection of delicate avionics
>equipment when the engine is started"; 2) there is an essential bus fed
>from both the left and right buses; and 3) one of the gps/nav/coms is fed
>directly from one of the batteries through a switch. Anyone have any
>comments about the rationale/benefits/costs of this architecture?
I saw this diagram a couple of years ago when Bill Bainbridge
sent it to me. One can only speculate at the rational for adding
so much complexity but it's a fair guess that a lot of traditional
thinking went into it. The switch to put a comm radio directly
onto the battery bus is a new gee-whiz showing up on a lot of
certified iron. The idea is to be able to get clearances
and ATIS without powering up the rest of the airplane.
It's a good idea to power up the e-bus via alternative feedpath
during preflight to test alternate feedpath and main bus isolation
diode . . . you can get all the pre-flight talking chores done at the
same time. With the 60/20 Main/Aux combination, I would think
that powering up the aux bus to get clearances and ATIS would be
fine too . . . all the main bus stuff stays off until time to
crank the engine.
Aside from massaging some decades-old worries and perhaps
a few young ones stirred in, I can deduce no value in
re-arranging as they did. But then, perhaps the value was
taking that all important first step in arrested evolution
and planned obsolescence . . . certification.
Bob . . .
Message 9
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| Subject: | Data logging with an Ipaq |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Hi There <rv90619@yahoo.com>
This may be a little off topic, I'm just having a hard time getting any real info.
I have a Grand Rapids EIS 4000 in my RV9. I would like to capture the serial stream
coming from the engine monitor using my Pocket PC so I can plot out the
engine data later on my PC. I understand that this is possible with a laptop
but that's too bulky and hard to package in the plane.
Any thoughts out there on how to do this?
Thanks
Cam
---------------------------------
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Data logging with an Ipaq |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com>
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Hi There <rv90619@yahoo.com>
>
>
>This may be a little off topic, I'm just having a hard time getting
>any real info.
>
>I have a Grand Rapids EIS 4000 in my RV9. I would like to capture
>the serial stream coming from the engine monitor using my Pocket PC
>so I can plot out the engine data later on my PC. I understand that
>this is possible with a laptop but that's too bulky and hard to
>package in the plane.
>
>Any thoughts out there on how to do this?
>
>Thanks
>
>Cam
>
Cam,
I communicated with a Boeing flight test engineer last week who was
working on exactly that problem. I asked him to let me know if he
got it working. I'll let you and the list know if I learn anything
more from him.
If you want to go it alone, you might try asking Grand Rapids if they
will send you the BASIC program that runs on a PC and logs data. I
don't know if there is way to run BASIC on an Ipaq, but if so you
might be able to modify that program to work for you. If not, you
might be able to reverse engineer the BASIC program so you could
write your own data logging program. All this assumes you have a way
to get serial data into the Ipaq. The data stream is at 9600 baud,
and it is binary. The BASIC program decodes it, converts it to ASCII
and writes it to a log file, one record per second.
I may end up writing my own data logging program, as the Grand Rapids
one doesn't do everything I want. If I end up with a working
solution, I'll share it with others. I'm many months away from
flying though, so that part of my project is on the back burner.
--
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Data logging with an Ipaq |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chad Robinson <crobinson@rfgonline.com>
Kevin Horton wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com>
>
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Hi There <rv90619@yahoo.com>
>>
>>
>>This may be a little off topic, I'm just having a hard time getting
>>any real info.
>>
>>I have a Grand Rapids EIS 4000 in my RV9. I would like to capture
>>the serial stream coming from the engine monitor using my Pocket PC
>>so I can plot out the engine data later on my PC. I understand that
>>this is possible with a laptop but that's too bulky and hard to
>>package in the plane.
>>
>>Any thoughts out there on how to do this?
>>
>>Thanks
>>
>>Cam
>>
>
>
> Cam,
>
> I communicated with a Boeing flight test engineer last week who was
> working on exactly that problem. I asked him to let me know if he
> got it working. I'll let you and the list know if I learn anything
> more from him.
>
> If you want to go it alone, you might try asking Grand Rapids if they
> will send you the BASIC program that runs on a PC and logs data. I
> don't know if there is way to run BASIC on an Ipaq, but if so you
> might be able to modify that program to work for you. If not, you
> might be able to reverse engineer the BASIC program so you could
> write your own data logging program. All this assumes you have a way
> to get serial data into the Ipaq. The data stream is at 9600 baud,
> and it is binary. The BASIC program decodes it, converts it to ASCII
> and writes it to a log file, one record per second.
>
> I may end up writing my own data logging program, as the Grand Rapids
> one doesn't do everything I want. If I end up with a working
> solution, I'll share it with others. I'm many months away from
> flying though, so that part of my project is on the back burner.
The Ipaq runs Windows CE, and Visual Basic applications will run on this
platform. It's a little different from other BASIC implementations (no line
numbers) but it works. Not all Windows CE loads contain the VBRUNXXX.DLL files
necessary but they're easy enough to put on.
Regards,
Chad
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Data logging with an Ipaq |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Hyde" <nauga@brick.net>
> I communicated with a Boeing flight test engineer last week who was
> working on exactly that problem. I asked him to let me know if he
> got it working. I'll let you and the list know if I learn anything
> more from him.
That would be me. I'm more interested in using the
iPaq as a display rather than a logger, and have been
fiddling with displays in embedded Visual Basic on
the iPaq. So far getting what I want has been a bear.
I've got the QuickBasic source that GRT uses to accept
and decode the data (thanks, Kevin), and porting the comm
stuff to a PocketPC/WinCE device looks pretty straightforward.
I haven't had a chance to hook it to the EIS yet, but I'll
post my results when I do.
OBTW: I'm a design engineer now :-)
Dave Hyde
nauga@brick.net
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Data logging with an Ipaq |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: n3eu@comcast.net
VB apps for the PC must be ported to the "winCE" device, using Micro$oft's eMbedded
VB Software Developers Kit, which is fortunately free, as it can be frustrating.
There is a serial comm control in embedded VB, but the help file -- as
the case in general for this SDK -- for using it is not for the uninitiated.
And if using the CE device's file system, emulation mode on the big PC won't
allow you to debug file access routines. A good sense of humor is required,
and real programmers use eMbedded Visual C++. :-)
Regards,
Fred F.
> The Ipaq runs Windows CE, and Visual Basic applications will run on this
> platform. It's a little different from other BASIC implementations (no line
> numbers) but it works. Not all Windows CE loads contain the VBRUNXXX.DLL
> files necessary but they're easy enough to put on.
>
> Regards,
> Chad
Message 14
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| Subject: | Klixon Circuit Breakers |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Joseph Kearns, DO,MPH,FACOEM" <Kearns@pol.net>
I have a question about Klixon Circuit breakers. They have a 2TC series -
http://www.ti.com/mc/docs/precprod/docs/2tc.htm
that I was thinking about putting into a Zodiac. I asked about them not
having a PMA number, and received this response:
Good morning Joe,
The reason there is no PMA for the 2TC2 series is that this items is
procured to an SAE AS33201 (older version of the MS33201 converted to
SAE) as such the device does not require PMA. The 2TC2 can be used and
is used on commercial aerospace applications.
Regards,
Susan A. Rogers
Texas Instruments
34 Forest Street MS 1-38
Attleboro, MA 02703
Phone: (508) 236 3573
Fax: (508) 236 1598
email: sarogers@ti.com
www: www.klixon.com
A very quick response. But do others agree this is an adequate explanation?
My other question is how these are rated- 120V AC at 400 Hz, and 28 V
DC. Could this still be used safely in a 14V DC system? Thanks.
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Klixon Circuit Breakers |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 09:48 PM 3/11/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Joseph Kearns, DO,MPH,FACOEM"
><Kearns@pol.net>
>
>I have a question about Klixon Circuit breakers. They have a 2TC series -
>
>http://www.ti.com/mc/docs/precprod/docs/2tc.htm
>
>that I was thinking about putting into a Zodiac. I asked about them not
>having a PMA number, and received this response:
>
>Good morning Joe,
>
>The reason there is no PMA for the 2TC2 series is that this items is
>procured to an SAE AS33201 (older version of the MS33201 converted to
>SAE) as such the device does not require PMA. The 2TC2 can be used and
>is used on commercial aerospace applications.
>
>Regards,
>Susan A. Rogers
>Texas Instruments
>34 Forest Street MS 1-38
>Attleboro, MA 02703
>Phone: (508) 236 3573
>Fax: (508) 236 1598
>email: sarogers@ti.com
>www: www.klixon.com
>
>A very quick response. But do others agree this is an adequate explanation?
>
>My other question is how these are rated- 120V AC at 400 Hz, and 28 V
>DC. Could this still be used safely in a 14V DC system? Thanks.
First, why is PMA important to you? Are you abused of
the notion that just because some component is "blessed"
that it possess SUPERIOR qualities for any given task?
I can assure you that is not the case. If breakers are
part of your design, the 2TC2 series breakers would
be fine.
Bob . . .
Bob . . .
-----------------------------------------
( Experience and common sense cannot be )
( replaced with policy and procedures. )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
-----------------------------------------
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Control Stick Switch Override |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 07:35 AM 3/8/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
>
>
>Hi Bob,
>
>As promised, after attending the Groton, CT seminar, I still have a
>question.
>
>With the plethora of trim, PTT, and other control buttons being
>duplicated on each control stick, I'm looking for a circuit to provide
>for pilot priority/override if there is a tug of war between the
>pilot/copilot. I need to handle 2 axis trim, speed brakes, and CWS.
I've published a drawing at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Pilot_Priority.pdf
The upper drawing shows how to wire control stick grip
switches for automatic/manual override of the copilot's
switches by the pilot. The relay is used to disconnect
the copilot's switches any time a pilot's switch is depressed.
The toggle switch selects full-time or automatic disable of
the copilot's switches.
The lower drawing is a bit simpler. It has only a manual
disable switch. This circuit does not allow pilot override
of any single switch . . . only a choice of whether or
not the copilot's stick controls are active.
Bob . . .
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Schematics question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss <chaskuss@bellsouth.net>
Mickey,
I intend to mount the rear D-Sub connector in the F-815A inner floor rib. The
front connector will be mounted on a bracket attached to the main spar carry through.
This will allow either the front or rear control sticks to be removed
easily. The connector's location will be out of the way during flight, yet is
easily accessible on the 8 and 8A. I'll use the "thumb screws" used on computer
cables. With all the functions on my stick grips, I'll need either 10 or 11
pins on the connector (depending on how I decide to wire everything)
Charlie Kuss
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
>
>A bit off your topic, but won't a 15 pin d sub
>be a bit big for this application?
>
>Mickey
>
>
>>> I intend to install a 15 pin D Sub connector to allow easy removal of
>>> both the pilot and co-pilot control sticks on my RV-8A project. ...
>
>
>--
>Mickey Coggins
>http://www.rv8.ch/
>#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Bussmann Fuseblock |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hans - Peter Reusser" <hpreusser@tiscalinet.ch>
Hi Charlie
Could you give me a hint where those Bussmann fuseblocks are obtainable?
many thanks
Hans-Peter Reusser, Europa building
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Hans-Peter und Christa Reusser Tel: +41 (33) 654 00 24
Spiezbergstr. 13 Fax: +41 (33) 654 30 21
3700 Spiez E-mail: hpreusser@tiscalinet.ch
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