Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:54 AM - Aluminum wire connectors (Gary Casey)
2. 08:16 AM - Source for coiled Yoke wiring ? (Pascal Gosselin)
3. 09:20 AM - Re: Source for coiled Yoke wiring ? (BobsV35B@aol.com)
4. 11:27 AM - Re: Battery chargers - my favorite (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 02:57 PM - Re: Endurance buss - second battery wiring (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 03:04 PM - Wiring for Xcom ()
7. 04:06 PM - Re: Aluminum wire connectors (Chad Robinson)
8. 04:44 PM - Re: Endurance buss - second battery wiring (Dale Martin)
9. 05:14 PM - Re: Wiring for Xcom (GMC)
10. 06:24 PM - Re: Endurance buss - second battery wiring (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
11. 06:33 PM - Re: Endurance buss - second battery wiring (Alex Peterson)
12. 08:03 PM - Re: Endurance buss - second battery wiring (Dale Martin)
13. 08:50 PM - Re: Wiring for Xcom (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
14. 09:14 PM - Re: Endurance buss - second battery wiring (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
15. 09:26 PM - Re: Endurance buss - second battery wiring (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
16. 09:44 PM - Re: Endurance buss - second battery wiring (Dave von Linsowe)
17. 10:39 PM - Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 03/14/04 (Bill Howerton)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Aluminum wire connectors |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gary Casey" <glcasey@adelphia.net>
I'm looking for a replacement battery terminal for my C-177 with an aluminum
cable. Anyone know where to get such a thing? The correct installation
method? No, I don't plan to replace my aluminum with a copper wire.
Gary Casey
C-177RG
Message 2
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| Subject: | Source for coiled Yoke wiring ? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Pascal Gosselin <pascal@aeroteknic.com>
I'm looking for a source for at least 8 conductor coiled (spiral)
rubberized wiring for hooking up a yoke with lots of switches
and a center clock (Bonanza).
-Pascal
+---------------------------+
Pascal Gosselin
pascal@aeroteknic.com
tel. (450) 676-6299
fax. (450) 676-2760
cell. (514) 298-3343
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Source for coiled Yoke wiring ? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
In a message dated 3/15/04 10:18:20 AM Central Standard Time,
pascal@aeroteknic.com writes:
I'm looking for a source for at least 8 conductor coiled (spiral)
rubberized wiring for hooking up a yoke with lots of switches
and a center clock (Bonanza).
-Pascal
Good Morning Pascal,
For what it is worth, my Bonanza has a nineteen wire cord and all of them
are in use. I am not sure what all is handled, though mine is not very
heavily equipped. The reason I am familiar with the number is I just had
occasion to disconnect it!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Airpark LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Battery chargers - my favorite |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 10:13 PM 3/13/2004 -0600, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Carter"
><dcarter@datarecall.net>
>
>John,
>
>I have a Schumaker, bought at Wal-Mart for about $35. It operates
>differently from anything Bob writes about in the Aeroelectric Connection
>and in e-mails: After clipping leads on battery from charger and plugging
>charger in, I connect a DC voltmeter to the clips on neg & positive
>terminals to see what is happening. When battery voltage is below 12.89, it
>turns on and pumps in the 2 or 10 amps (which ever you select) until voltage
>builds up to 13.4 - this may take 15 minutes if battery is discharged some,
>or takes 3 to 5 seconds if fully charged. At 13.4, it turns OFF (green
>light comes on, stops putting any current into batter - NOT a trickle
>charger. As battery voltage "free falls" (self discharges) down to below
>12.89 the voltage goes down to 13.4 fairly quickly, then takes a while from
>there on down. The better the state of charge of the battery, the longer it
>takes (maybe 15 minutes?) to reach 12.89 to turn on for another 5 seconds.
>
>I had two old vintage cars that I tried to keep the batteries up while cars
>were inop. The charger began to act flakey after a three years - they took
>it back and replaced it free. Still working fine.
That was/is a technique used in the earliest low cost chargers.
It's certainly acceptable. The key is not to allow a battery to
be stored at terminal voltages exceeding normal "resting" levels
by more than a half volt or so. You can build an excellent
battery maintainer using a 12-18 volt DC "wall wart" power supply
coupled with a regulator (like the dimmers we used to sell . . .
see: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/DimmerFabrication.pdf )
Put a diode in series with the output of the dimmer so that energy
won't back-feed into the regulator should the power fail. Set the
regulator for 13.6 volts (13.0 + .6 to accommodate diode drop), hook
this to your battery and plug it in.
This circuit will actually charge a battery to 100% at room temperature.
It may take a week or more to top it off after the battery is up to
90% of charge . . . but it will EVENTUALLY attain full charge.
Further, by limiting max voltage to some value just over normal
open circuit terminal voltage for the battery, it can't hurt
the battery.
There are a number of commercial products set up to do this. See:
http://www.batterymart.com/battery.mv?c=batteryminder
http://store.azmusa.com/battenjr12vb.html
This model even has the "tickler" built in to ward of
sulphation . . .
http://www.vdcelectronics.com/batteryminder.htm
Just do a google search on "batteryminder"
and "battery tender" . . .
You'll get thousands of hits. None of these are
so expensive as to make building your own a very
attractive option. We have several varieties of
these critters in our shop to maintain portable power
batteries I use for instrumentation packages.
Bob . . .
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Endurance buss - second battery wiring |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 12:53 PM 3/13/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave von Linsowe" <davevon@tir.com>
>
>Bob,
>
>I'm in the final stages of laying out the panel and planning my all
>electric upgrade.
>
>I started out with a nice "stock" IFR RV-6 and have replaced one mag with
>an E.I., pulled out the vacuum system and added a two axis autopilot,
>Garmin 430 and a GRT Horizon One EFIS with engine monitor. I'm also
>adding a glove box to store a backup GPS and hand held transceiver. I
>want to make IFR "easy/easier" if that's possible. I realize that if and
>when things go bad you must still have the skills to fly the airplane.
>
>I was planning on using the dual battery, single alternator setup. And I
>was starting to think along the same lines as John and adding a switch to
>bring either battery on line. I'm really spoiled now with the vacant real
>estate behind the engine. That's my reasoning for dual batteries instead
>of dual alternators.
>
>But now I'm getting the impression that Z-11 might offer acceptable risk
>even for IFR flight. Doesn't the single battery dual alternator,
>Z-13, rely completely on the battery for either alternator to function in
>case of a failure? Although, I guess it could be a nearly dead battery.
>
>I'm planning on pursuing my IFR rating with the 6 and that I'm in Michigan
>I'm sure I'll have lots of opportunities to use it.
>
>So being a newbie to the demands of IFR and the realities of all electric
>what are your thoughts?
Have you done a load analysis to show how much total energy needs
to be in storage to use up fuel aboard should the alternator crap?
That's the first driver in the decision making process. Second driver
is cost of ownership including fuel to carry around extra weight of
second battery and to maintain them in an IFR capable status. Recall
that the SD-8 only weighs about 4# installed and produces up to
10 ampere hours of "capacity" for each hour of fuel endurance
and you don't even have to touch the main battery. If I had
a vacuum pump pad open on my engine, it wouldn't take much
thinking about what I'd do with it. A pair of alternators
beats a pair of batteries in any poker game.
Bob . . .
Message 6
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <beecho@beecho.org>
Help! Has anybody wired an Xcom intercom to two coms? The factory sold
me a wiring harness that doesn't work. They will not send me wiring
diagrams, schematics or return my money. They refuse to fix it.
BEWARE of Xcom. BEWARE!
Tom
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Aluminum wire connectors |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chad Robinson <crobinson@rfgonline.com>
Gary Casey wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gary Casey" <glcasey@adelphia.net>
>
> I'm looking for a replacement battery terminal for my C-177 with an aluminum
> cable. Anyone know where to get such a thing? The correct installation
> method? No, I don't plan to replace my aluminum with a copper wire.
>
> Gary Casey
> C-177RG
Another possibility is to use the same technique often used in homes, a form
of pigtailing. In homes you use a special crimper, antioxidant grease, and
heat-shrink tubing to connect a short copper pigtal to the aluminum wire.
(c.f. "Copalum") Now, you wouldn't normally do this on a battery jumper
because it's really designed for AWG 10-12 wire, but if you already have a
terminal on the end of your aluminum wire you can attach it to a bolt like a
through-panel connector, and attach a short, copper jumper with like terminals
to the other side of the bolt. You introduce a bit of resistance in the
connection and the bolt but not much. Unless you have no room?
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Endurance buss - second battery wiring |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dale Martin" <niceez@cableone.net>
Bob,
Insure me that the alternator will restart an engine in flight! The prop
has to be (should be) stopped engage the starter. Some airplanes take a
great deal of airspeed to make the prop start to windmill (read great loss
of altitude) and your hoping it restarts.
Dale Martin
Lewiston, ID
LEZ-235
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
> A pair of alternators beats a pair of batteries in any poker game.
>
> Bob . . .
Message 9
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "GMC" <gmcnutt@uniserve.com>
Hi Tom
I assume that you have the wiring diagram that came with the unit, if not it
is on the Xcom web site.
Looks like it might not be designed for a second comm radio as it only has
second audio input (nav radio?).
George in Langley
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Wiring for Xcom
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <beecho@beecho.org>
Help! Has anybody wired an Xcom intercom to two coms? The factory sold
me a wiring harness that doesn't work. They will not send me wiring
diagrams, schematics or return my money. They refuse to fix it.
BEWARE of Xcom. BEWARE!
Tom
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Endurance buss - second battery wiring |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 04:41 PM 3/15/2004 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dale Martin" <niceez@cableone.net>
>
>Bob,
>
>Insure me that the alternator will restart an engine in flight! The prop
>has to be (should be) stopped engage the starter. Some airplanes take a
>great deal of airspeed to make the prop start to windmill (read great loss
>of altitude) and your hoping it restarts.
How do you get the prop to stop in flight? I've tried it
on every type of aircraft I've flown . . . and without
a purposeful reduction in IAS, they all windmill and produce
MUCHO drag. If it is windmilling, the problem isn't how
to engage the starter, it's how to restore lost ignition and/or
fuel flow. That generally takes VERY little energy . . .
energy that will be available from a well maintained RG battery.
Bob . . .
Message 11
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| Subject: | Endurance buss - second battery wiring |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson@earthlink.net>
> How do you get the prop to stop in flight? I've tried it
> on every type of aircraft I've flown . . . and without
> a purposeful reduction in IAS, they all windmill and produce
> MUCHO drag. If it is windmilling, the problem isn't how
> to engage the starter, it's how to restore lost ignition and/or
> fuel flow. That generally takes VERY little energy . . .
> energy that will be available from a well maintained RG battery.
>
> Bob . . .
>
Bob,
First, you get yourself a C/S RV. Then, slow to about 70 knots and
pull the mixture. Then slow to about 60 knots, and the prop will stop
before the plane stalls. Add a little speed, something like 70-80 knots
and it will start turning again. Do this well above an airport if you
are faint at heart. It is quite interesting to see the prop stopped.
Alex Peterson
Maple Grove, MN
RV6-A N66AP 445 hours
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~alexpeterson/
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Endurance buss - second battery wiring |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dale Martin" <niceez@cableone.net>
Pretty EZ to do on a canard design..... To set up optimum glide the flat
disc of a rotating prop is MORE drag not less at least in an EZ... But I
can see a person trying to achieve a restart and trimming for an optimum
glide, getting the attention focused on a restart and not the airspeed
allowing the prop to stop.
Doesn't seem that far fetched at all.
I guess my question is then has a single alternator and single battery both
failed and produced an accident. If yes, how many airports were over flown
in the process. Flying out here in the west (especially Idaho as anyone who
has can attest) you will find some of the most beautiful and inhospitable
terrain there is anywhere. Having a problem even here one can still make
it back to mother earth in a smooth touchdown with vigilance to maintaining
in good repair the single battery and single charging system. If were
talking about crossing the ocean - I'm with you. The second alternator
sounded great to me at one time but the more I ask around the more I am
convinced I don't need it even for and IFR airplane. We all have opinions
:-)
- Dale
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Endurance buss - second battery wiring
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dale Martin"
<niceez@cableone.net>
> >
> >Bob,
> >
> >Insure me that the alternator will restart an engine in flight! The prop
> >has to be (should be) stopped engage the starter. Some airplanes take a
> >great deal of airspeed to make the prop start to windmill (read great
loss
> >of altitude) and your hoping it restarts.
>
> How do you get the prop to stop in flight? I've tried it
> on every type of aircraft I've flown . . . and without
> a purposeful reduction in IAS, they all windmill and produce
> MUCHO drag. If it is windmilling, the problem isn't how
> to engage the starter, it's how to restore lost ignition and/or
> fuel flow. That generally takes VERY little energy . . .
> energy that will be available from a well maintained RG battery.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring for Xcom |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 03:04 PM 3/15/2004 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <beecho@beecho.org>
>
>Help! Has anybody wired an Xcom intercom to two coms? The factory sold
>me a wiring harness that doesn't work. They will not send me wiring
>diagrams, schematics or return my money. They refuse to fix it.
>
>BEWARE of Xcom. BEWARE!
>
>Tom
Without being privy to the details of your conversation when
the order was placed, I'm puzzled about a "harness for two
coms". Normally, an intercom installation does not include
audio selector switches as part of a prefabricated harness.
The switch for second transmitter is easy to add. I downloaded
the XCOM "wiring diagram" which is pretty cheesy and converted
it to a real schematic that illustrates addition of the two-pole,
double-throw switch for transmitter select.
You can download the package at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Installation_Data/Xcom_Wiring.pdf
Bob . . .
-----------------------------------------
( Experience and common sense cannot be )
( replaced with policy and procedures. )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
-----------------------------------------
Message 14
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| Subject: | Endurance buss - second battery wiring |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 08:33 PM 3/15/2004 -0600, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson"
><alexpeterson@earthlink.net>
>
>
> > How do you get the prop to stop in flight? I've tried it
> > on every type of aircraft I've flown . . . and without
> > a purposeful reduction in IAS, they all windmill and produce
> > MUCHO drag. If it is windmilling, the problem isn't how
> > to engage the starter, it's how to restore lost ignition and/or
> > fuel flow. That generally takes VERY little energy . . .
> > energy that will be available from a well maintained RG battery.
> >
> > Bob . . .
> >
>
>Bob,
>First, you get yourself a C/S RV. Then, slow to about 70 knots and
>pull the mixture. Then slow to about 60 knots, and the prop will stop
>before the plane stalls. Add a little speed, something like 70-80 knots
>and it will start turning again. Do this well above an airport if you
>are faint at heart. It is quite interesting to see the prop stopped.
Yeah, but you don't do it accidently. I presume the original concern
was about mis-managed fuel valves and finding that a starter was needed
to get the engine running after fuel flow was restored. I think
it's a very rare airframe/powerplant installation that doesn't
recover gracefully and quickly from loss of fuel flow by turning
a knob and perhaps flipping a switch. Loss of one ignition
often goes unnoticed until next pre-flight.
My question was centered on the concern about being able to
use a starter while airborne. If the engine is windmilling,
then you don't need a starter. If you get the engine stopped,
then I presume it was stopped on purpose and for reasons OTHER
than having lost any combination of alternators or batteries.
Hence my suggestion that two alternators and one battery is
preferable from the perspective of minimizing weight and
maximizing available energy should the main alternator go
south . . . which is going to be VERY rare if you install
a B&C alternator from the get-go.
The OBAM aircraft community carries a lot of baggage
from the certified world not the least of which is founded
on the dark-n-stormy-night stories in the monthly rags.
If one installs Van's harness (al-la C-172)
and replaces certified junk alternators and batteries
with modern ND and RG products, the probability of
having a hair-raising tale to tell the grand kids is
already reduced to a small fraction compared to
certified iron. Replace the a-bus with an e-bus
and the fraction becomes smaller still. Add a
second alternator and we've got reliability that
very few airplanes outside the OBAM aircraft
community will ever enjoy.
None the less, it takes awhile for folks to understand
this new way of thinking and to stop stacking multiple
failures on top of each other . . . only the space-flight
guys do much of that . . . and it's because they can't
deal in 3-4 hour windows of opportunity as a limiting
factor for multiple failures.
Bob . . .
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Endurance buss - second battery wiring |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 08:03 PM 3/15/2004 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dale Martin" <niceez@cableone.net>
>
>Pretty EZ to do on a canard design..... To set up optimum glide the flat
>disc of a rotating prop is MORE drag not less at least in an EZ...
it is for all aircraft.
>But I
>can see a person trying to achieve a restart and trimming for an optimum
>glide, getting the attention focused on a restart and not the airspeed
>allowing the prop to stop.
Why did the engine falter in the first place? If it was due to
fuel starvation, then flipping the boost pump and selecting the
other tank seems to be the first thing to do . . . setting up
an "optimum glide" seems a bit of a waste and increases risk
to a successful re-start . . . so why do it before you take
care of the obvious.
>Doesn't seem that far fetched at all.
>I guess my question is then has a single alternator and single battery both
>failed and produced an accident.
How do you crap two well maintained pieces of equipment in the
same 4 hour window? Especially if your using modern components?
How many times has this hypothesized scenario figured into an
accident?
> If yes, how many airports were over flown
>in the process. Flying out here in the west (especially Idaho as anyone who
>has can attest) you will find some of the most beautiful and inhospitable
>terrain there is anywhere. Having a problem even here one can still make
>it back to mother earth in a smooth touchdown with vigilance to maintaining
>in good repair the single battery and single charging system. If were
>talking about crossing the ocean - I'm with you. The second alternator
>sounded great to me at one time but the more I ask around the more I am
>convinced I don't need it even for and IFR airplane. We all have opinions
>:-)
Opinions based on real failure mode effects analysis are the
ones I'm interested in. We're talking about a battery that presumably
gets replaced before capacity drops below 75-80% and it just cranked
your engine
less than 4 hours ago. One can hypothesize any number and kind
of failure combinations. Shucks, you might find that you want to
crank the engine and the starter is crapped, or a starter solenoid
has gone south . . . should we consider dual starters? What set
of conditions string together to give us a flaky battery combined
with what has to be a deliberate move to stop the prop while airborne?
Bob . . .
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Endurance buss - second battery wiring |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave von Linsowe" <davevon@tir.com>
Thanks Bob,
I thought you might say that, I just wanted to be sure...
Dave
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 12:53 PM 3/13/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave von Linsowe" <davevon@tir.com>
>
>Bob,
>
>I'm in the final stages of laying out the panel and planning my all
>electric upgrade.
>
>I started out with a nice "stock" IFR RV-6>
>
>So being a newbie to the demands of IFR and the realities of all electric
>what are your thoughts?
Have you done a load analysis to show how much total energy needs
to be in storage to use up fuel aboard should the alternator crap?
That's the first driver in the decision making process. Second driver
is cost of ownership including fuel to carry around extra weight of
second battery and to maintain them in an IFR capable status. Recall
that the SD-8 only weighs about 4# installed and produces up to
10 ampere hours of "capacity" for each hour of fuel endurance
and you don't even have to touch the main battery. If I had
a vacuum pump pad open on my engine, it wouldn't take much
thinking about what I'd do with it. A pair of alternators
beats a pair of batteries in any poker game.
Bob . . .
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 03/14/04 |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Howerton" <Bill@Howerton.com>
Bob,
I have a great number of 28-volt intruments and avionics that I intend
to use in my airplane. Additionally, I'm putting a standard (12-volt)
Corvair engine in my plane. As I read through your manual, I don't really
find a clear recomendation as to a well designed aircraft electrical system,
that allows these two to co-exist happily. However, from other contacts,
I've received a number of recommendations that vary from the installation of
a rectifier to the addition of a second alternator.
OK, so what kind of recomendation do you have?
Bill
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