Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:46 AM - LSE Plasma III electrical noise (Sam Hoskins)
2. 06:47 AM - Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 18 Msgs - 03/22/04 (klehman@albedo.net)
3. 07:20 AM - Re: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 18 Msgs - 03/22/04 (James E. Clark)
4. 07:51 AM - 3 Questions for Bob (Matt Jurotich)
5. 08:02 AM - Re: Instrument adaptating queations .... pts rule (Finn Lassen)
6. 08:03 AM - Re: Instrument adaptating questions (Finn Lassen)
7. 08:51 AM - Re: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 18 Msgs - (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
8. 09:41 AM - Re: small high cca batteries (Chad Robinson)
9. 10:04 AM - Re: small high cca batteries (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
10. 10:55 AM - PM Alternator (Ken Harrill)
11. 11:02 AM - Re: Preflight check of SD-8? (Ken Harrill)
12. 11:27 AM - Re: Instrument adaptating queations (Jim Sower)
13. 11:57 AM - Re: Instrument adaptating queations (Matt Prather)
14. 02:18 PM - King wiring questions (Hi There)
15. 07:22 PM - Re: Preflight check of SD-8? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
16. 07:42 PM - Re: PM Alternator (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
17. 07:48 PM - Re: small high cca batteries (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
18. 07:51 PM - Re: 3 Questions for Bob (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
19. 08:03 PM - Re: LSE Plasma III electrical noise (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
20. 08:40 PM - Re: Garmin 340 Audio panel question - RG400 to D-Sub? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
21. 08:54 PM - Re: King wiring questions (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
22. 08:57 PM - Re: 11252 macy (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
23. 09:12 PM - Re: Dancing Ammeter (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
Message 1
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| Subject: | LSE Plasma III electrical noise |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Sam Hoskins" <shoskins@mchsi.com>
I thought I was finished with the installation of my LSE Plasma III into my
all composite Q-200. I am running the one mag/one electronic system. I
went out for the test flight, but the tower was unable to read me.
"Aircraft calling ground, unreadable".
After I fiddled with the squelch, I found there was a mid-range tone, quite
loud, whenever I had the LSE switched ON. I shut down the engine and found
the same thing; the noise was just as bad. (I have a Wag-Aero ICS Plus
Nav/Com, about 12 years old).
I called Klaus and he said I was picking up inductive coupling from the
oscillator. I admit I had diverted from his instructions just a little bit.
For the 12V supply I ran an unshielded wire from the battery to a 5A breaker
in the panel. From there, his shielded wire runs to the LSE brain box. The
shielded ground wire runs from the brain box to the ground buss, which is
mounted about 18" aft of the firewall. His instructions say it should go
all the way to the battery.
My com antenna lead is RG58 and it runs in intimate proximity with the
unshielded 12V supply line to the battery. The com antenna is in the
vertical stab, and the battery is in the baggage compartment, aft of the
passenger seat.
Klaus suggested separating the com antenna leads from any power leads, and
run shielded wire, straight to the battery per plans, including the CB. That
is what I now intend to do.
Any more thoughts or suggestions?
Sam Hoskins
Quickie Q-200 ~1,350 hrs.
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 18 Msgs - 03/22/04 |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: klehman@albedo.net
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: klehman@albedo.net
>>
>>Hi
>>
>>I would like to use two batteries with my two alternators on my efi
>>Subaru. For weight saving and the ability to rotate them, I am willing
>>to try the $80. Ultra-start red batteries by Advanced Technology
>>Products. 4.4 lbs ea., 5 AH, 250 peak amps. However their web site
>>www.startstick.com has been closed/under construction for a long time
>>which makes me wonder if these batteries will be available in the
>>future. I thought there would be a market for such a battery for small
>>engine starting but perhaps not.
>>
>>Are they the only source of such a battery? I have not been able to find
>>any other sources but perhaps I'm looking in the wrong places. Certainly
>>5AH and similar batteries are available with low discharge rates but I
>>haven't found any other high current units below about 12AH and 12 lbs.
>>Batteries with faston connectors are obviously unsuitable.
>>
>>Comments from anyone who has experience with these batteries or ATP
>>would be appreciated.
>
>
> I believe the Start Stick was based on the Bolder thin film
> technology batteries which didn't fly in the market and the
> company folded a couple of years ago.
>
> Even in their finest hour, the TFT batteries were flaky
> and unreliable. Not ready for prime time in aircraft.
> If it were my airplane, I used a pair of 17 a.h. batteries
> in the 3 x 7 x 7 inch formal. $35 to $60 each, inexpensive,
> robust and made by everybody who is anybody in the battery
> business.
>
> Bob . . .
Thank you Fred and Bob for your comments.
I strongly suspect that these ATP batteries are not actually TFT
batteries. The numbers for the 5AH unit scale up with weight to about
exactly what they claim for their 13 AH battery. The specs for their
13AH unit look to be pretty much the same as for an odyssey PC545. The
PC545 is 13AH and 545 amps for 5 secs compared to 650 amps instantaneous
for the ATP 13 AH battery which sounds pretty similar. I'd expect a lot
more from a TFT. (If the less than two lb. 1000 amp startstick TFT
batteries had panned out, they'd of been lighter than starter cables and
I'm sure we'd be mounting one right on the starter. :) )
There is a statement in the "book" that says that a 10AH RG battery will
crank any sport aviation engine. That seems reasonable and makes me
think that two 5AH units might be satisfactory. No doubt with a shorter
life span though which I think is part of what you are both telling me.
I can't seem to justify the weight of two 17 AH batteries at 15 lb. ea.
though. Even the PC545 are 12 lb ea (and darned expensive). OK so if
dual 5AH units are out I guess its back to a Z-13 configuration.
Maybe I'll experiment a bit to see if I can run the engine off the PM
alternator without tying it to the battery. A large capacitor might make
that possible. A small computer battery if need be. That would also
achieve the electrical redundancy that I'd like. Kind of a Z-13 1/2 ;)
thanks
Ken
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 18 Msgs - 03/22/04 |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James E. Clark" <james@nextupventures.com>
Some comments from a particular experience below ...
James
[SNIP]
> There is a statement in the "book" that says that a 10AH RG battery will
> crank any sport aviation engine. That seems reasonable and makes me
> think that two 5AH units might be satisfactory. No doubt with a shorter
> life span though which I think is part of what you are both telling me.
This is probably very true for a well tuned, warm engine. But, be advised
also that there **WILL** be cases when a "relatively new (months)" 17AH
battery will not crank an O-320/O-360. [Your engine may take a lot less
juice]
January 2002 in Atlanta at a Formation Seminar, several of us had to get
"jumpstarts" after a "cold" overnight on the ramp. And I know that two of
these planes (and their engines) were only a few months old.
After trying three different "cheaper" batteries, we ended up with the
Odyssey PC680 (17 AH). So far, a year later, it seems to work fine. I have
not had a chance to try it under the same conditions of being "out in the
cold" overnight.
Your mileage on your engine may vary.
>
> I can't seem to justify the weight of two 17 AH batteries at 15 lb. ea.
> though. Even the PC545 are 12 lb ea (and darned expensive). OK so if
> dual 5AH units are out I guess its back to a Z-13 configuration.
I am implementing Z-14 on a current project. Bought a PC545 (I think) to
play around with as I was considering two of them. When the dust settled
(for ME), I decided that dual PC680's were the way to go. Known quantity.
Known mounting methods. Not that much space saving in the way in which I was
mounting it. A few more pounds for an enhanced peace of mind (for ME). I
will look into other ways to reduce my **takeoff weight** ... including
removing 10, 20, ?? pounds from ME.
Just a different viewpoint for consideration.
James
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | 3 Questions for Bob |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Matt Jurotich <mjurotich@hst.nasa.gov>
Bob
1) You said in a reply to send my LR3C-14 voltage regulator. and you would
upgrade it to the newer configuration. Can you check out its proper
functioning at the same time? I expect to pay for this, how much? The
address I have is
6936 Bainbridge Road
Wichita, KS 67226-1008
Is this correct?
2) Will this W31X2M1G5 switch breaker be OK for the 5 amp pullable breaker
for the field wire to LR3C-14 voltage regulator? It is half the price of
the pullable breaker from B&C.
3) Do you have a kit for the poor man's battery tester or a cartoon of how
to build one. I have finally found an 120 volt AC electric clock. I have
not held a soldering iron for forty years and I was not real skillful back
then.
Thanks
Matthew M. Jurotich
NASA/Goddard Space Flight Center
Swales contractor to the
JWST ISIM Systems Engineer
m/c : 443
e-mail mail to: <mjurotich@hst.nasa.gov>
phone : 301-286-5919
fax : 301-286-7021
JWST URL: <http://ngst1.gsfc.nasa.gov
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Instrument adaptating queations .... pts rule |
name description ---- ---------------------- --------------------------------------------------
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Finn Lassen <finn.lassen@verizon.net>
As long as your digital voltmeter has it's own power supply (battery),
you simply measure the voltage across the shunt:
Amps = Volts / Ohms.
Example:
You measure 0.1 volts across a 0.05 ohm shunt.
0.1 / 0.05 = 2 Amps.
It's that simple.
It's called Ohm's Law.
And you don't have "amps across a shunt", it's "amps through a shunt".
Current (amps) flows through a resistance (ohms) which generates a
voltage (volts) across it.
Finn
Jim Sower wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jim Sower <canarder@frontiernet.net>
>
><... Yup, 50 mv movements are commonly used with off-the-shelf shunts. For
switching
>between two shunts of different current values, you can do either dual-scale instrument
or a
>single ...>
>Movements are well and good. I can understand that. What I'm trying to adapt
is a digital
>display. How do I reduce a digital display to a 50mv galvanometer? That was
the original
>question. I've got digital displays that massage the input (volts, gallons, deg
F, whatever)
>and display it numerically. How do I modify a digital voltmeter to display amps
across a
>shunt?
>
>Still wonderin' .... Jim S.
>
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Instrument adaptating questions |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Finn Lassen <finn.lassen@verizon.net>
As long as your digital voltmeter has it's own power supply (battery),
you simply measure the voltage across the shunt:
Amps = Volts / Ohms.
Example:
You measure 0.1 volts across a 0.05 ohm shunt.
0.1 / 0.05 = 2 Amps.
It's that simple.
It's called Ohm's Law.
And you don't have "amps across a shunt", it's "amps through a shunt".
Current (amps) flows through a resistance (ohms) which generates a
voltage (volts) across it.
Finn
Jim Sower wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jim Sower <canarder@frontiernet.net>
>
><... Yup, 50 mv movements are commonly used with off-the-shelf shunts. For
switching
>between two shunts of different current values, you can do either dual-scale instrument
or a
>single ...>
>Movements are well and good. I can understand that. What I'm trying to adapt
is a digital
>display. How do I reduce a digital display to a 50mv galvanometer? That was
the original
>question. I've got digital displays that massage the input (volts, gallons, deg
F, whatever)
>and display it numerically. How do I modify a digital voltmeter to display amps
across a
>shunt?
>
>Still wonderin' .... Jim S.
>
>
Message 7
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| From: | "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net> (by way of Matt Dralle <nospam@matronics.com>) |
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 18 Msgs - |
03/22/04
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
(by way of Matt Dralle <nospam@matronics.com>)
At 09:34 AM 3/23/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: klehman@albedo.net
>
> >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: klehman@albedo.net
> >>
> >>Hi
> >>
> >>I would like to use two batteries with my two alternators on my efi
> >>Subaru. For weight saving and the ability to rotate them, I am willing
> >>to try the $80. Ultra-start red batteries by Advanced Technology
> The
>PC545 is 13AH and 545 amps for 5 secs compared to 650 amps instantaneous
>for the ATP 13 AH battery which sounds pretty similar. I'd expect a lot
>more from a TFT. (If the less than two lb. 1000 amp startstick TFT
>batteries had panned out, they'd of been lighter than starter cables and
>I'm sure we'd be mounting one right on the starter. :) )
>
>There is a statement in the "book" that says that a 10AH RG battery will
>crank any sport aviation engine. That seems reasonable and makes me
>think that two 5AH units might be satisfactory. No doubt with a shorter
>life span though which I think is part of what you are both telling me.
Not necessarily ANY 10 AH battery. B&C tested a product some years
ago on a high-compression, aerobatic aircraft and observed 5
cranking intervals that would have been expected to get the engine
going. It's a given that small batteries will have a shorter
service life than larger batteries in any given installation
that cranks engines.
>I can't seem to justify the weight of two 17 AH batteries at 15 lb. ea.
>though. Even the PC545 are 12 lb ea (and darned expensive). OK so if
>dual 5AH units are out I guess its back to a Z-13 configuration.
Where are you seeing the 5AH batteries? The smallest cranking
battery B&C offers today is 12 ah at 11 pounds. See:
http://www.bandc.biz/BC103-1.pdf
while cruising the net on batteries . . . ran across
these folks:
http://www.batcap.net/
They package very large value capacitors to store energy up
to and including cranking currents. I'm looking into an application
at RAC for these (tooling . . . not flight hardware).
>Maybe I'll experiment a bit to see if I can run the engine off the PM
>alternator without tying it to the battery. A large capacitor might make
>that possible.
??? don't understand how this is useful
> A small computer battery if need be. That would also
>achieve the electrical redundancy that I'd like. Kind of a Z-13 1/2 ;)
What is the failure mode you worry about with
Z-13 as published?
Bob . . .
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: small high cca batteries |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chad Robinson <crobinson@rfgonline.com>
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> Even in their finest hour, the TFT batteries were flaky
> and unreliable. Not ready for prime time in aircraft.
> If it were my airplane, I used a pair of 17 a.h. batteries
> in the 3 x 7 x 7 inch formal. $35 to $60 each, inexpensive,
> robust and made by everybody who is anybody in the battery
Bob, do you or does anybody else on this list happen to know what one of these
batteries might weigh? I'm way to early to be buying one but I'm trying to
figure out where they'll go and I'd like to know how they would affect my W&B.
Since I'm a very light pilot I'm considering putting them up front (this is a
pusher, so the decision is important).
Regards,
Chad
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: small high cca batteries |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
> > If it were my airplane, I used a pair of 17 a.h. batteries
> > in the 3 x 7 x 7 inch formal. $35 to $60 each, inexpensive,
> > robust and made by everybody who is anybody in the battery
DigiKey has a 20 Ah by Panasonic the same exact size at the 17 Ah, weighs
1/10 lb. more and is a few more dollars. My guess is a thinner case. One spins
my low comp. O-320 as low as 40 deg. even with an ancient Delco (Prestolite)
ungeared starter. Panasonic pt. # is LC-X1220P. Here's the cat. page:
http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T041/1117.pdf
Mark
Message 10
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken Harrill <KHarrill@osa.state.sc.us>
* AeroElectric-List message posted by: klehman@albedo.net
Maybe I'll experiment a bit to see if I can run the engine off the PM
alternator without tying it to the battery. A large capacitor might make
that possible. A small computer battery if need be. That would also achieve
the electrical redundancy that I'd like. Kind of a Z-13 1/2 ;)
thanks
Ken
Ken,
In my RV-6 I modified the "All Electric On a Budget" system such that the
SD-8 circuit includes a small .8(that's 8/10ths)AH battery and is completely
independent of the main electrical system. However, the SD-8 does not
produce much current below about 1500 RPM, which may be of concern if it is
used to power a second electronic ignition. (I use one mag.)
Ken Harrill
Rv-6, 300 hours
Columbia, SC
Message 11
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| Subject: | Preflight check of SD-8? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken Harrill <KHarrill@osa.state.sc.us>
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken Harrill
<KHarrill@osa.state.sc.us>
Matt,
As well as I recall, it does not come online at all until around 1500 RPM. I
don't remember if it subsequently goes off line if the RPM is lowered. My
habit is to check during runup, not at idle. I will check when I get a
chance to fly again.
Ken Harrill
RV-6, 300 hours
Columbia, SC
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" <mprather@spro.net>
A good point about needing more RPM to get the SD-8 to put
out useful power. Ken, do you get zero output below 1500RPM,
or just less than the total regulated output? The reason I ask
is that I think the B&C 200G on my Continental starts raising
bus voltage by about 1000RPM.
Matt-
N34RD
Matt,
Last weekend I remembered to check the SD-8 at lower RPM's. The voltage
drops off gradually below 1500 RPM's, reaching 12 volts at about 1200 RPM's.
Ken Harrill
RV-6, 300+ hours
Columbia, SC
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Instrument adaptating queations |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jim Sower <canarder@frontiernet.net>
Finn,
<... As long as your digital voltmeter has it's own power supply
(battery), you simply measure the voltage across the shunt ...>
I don't know if it has it's own power supply. There's a
voltmeter that measures volts, a fuel quantity indicator that
measures volts across a pot (rheostat on a float lever) and is
calibrated somehow in gals, a temperature indicator measures
voltage drop across another variable resistance, as does a
pressure indicator. Trouble is, if I'm not mistaken, all of the
decisions as to what to display under what conditions are made
in a chip that is hard coded for the particular task in
conjunction with a particular transducer.
The manufacturer won't divulge the finer points of the internal
design, but it doesn't make any difference if, as seems to be
the case, I have to burn a special chip to match the transducer
and drive the display. I cannot do that, the manufacturer
won't, and I don't know anyone who can or will. I'll just have
to have that one analog gauge in the middle of my digital
cluster or else do without.
It was pretty much a shot in the dark anyway ... Jim S.
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Instrument adaptating queations |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" <mprather@spro.net>
Hi Jim,
Have you looked through this article?
http://www.rst-engr.com/kitplanes/KP0201/KP0201.htm
Regards,
Matt-
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jim Sower
> <canarder@frontiernet.net>
>
> Finn,
> <... As long as your digital voltmeter has it's own power supply
> (battery), you simply measure the voltage across the shunt ...>
>
> I don't know if it has it's own power supply. There's a
> voltmeter that measures volts, a fuel quantity indicator that
> measures volts across a pot (rheostat on a float lever) and is
> calibrated somehow in gals, a temperature indicator measures
> voltage drop across another variable resistance, as does a
> pressure indicator. Trouble is, if I'm not mistaken, all of the
> decisions as to what to display under what conditions are made
> in a chip that is hard coded for the particular task in
> conjunction with a particular transducer.
>
> The manufacturer won't divulge the finer points of the internal
> design, but it doesn't make any difference if, as seems to be
> the case, I have to burn a special chip to match the transducer
> and drive the display. I cannot do that, the manufacturer
> won't, and I don't know anyone who can or will. I'll just have
> to have that one analog gauge in the middle of my digital
> cluster or else do without.
>
> It was pretty much a shot in the dark anyway ... Jim S.
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | King wiring questions |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Hi There <rv90619@yahoo.com>
I've got a few questions about wiring my KT76a, KX125, KI208, and an ITC-402P intercom.
I have the pin diagrams for each of these, but the terms don't seem to
always line up. The ones I'm having problems with are:
**KX125 PINS**
COM AUDIO IN
COM AUDIO HI
COM AUDIO LOW
COM DET AUDIO OUT
COM REMOTE XFR
NAV AUDIO OUT HI
NAV AUDIO OUT LO
NAV AUDIO IN
NAV REMOTE XFR
(Do one of these go to the intercom? My intercom only calls for one input from
the radio)
VOR/LOC COMPOSITE IN
VOR/LOC COMPOSITE OUT
(which one goes to the VOR/LOC INPUT on the KI208?)
ILS GROUND
(does this go with ILS COMMON on the KI208? If not what goes to the ILS COMMON?)
**KT76A PINS**
D4 (My encoder doesn't have an output for this, do I need it?)
**KI208**
On the KI208 the + LEFT OUTPUT and the + RIGHT OUTPUT are labeled as outputs for
the auto pilot. There are no other left or right pins in the diagram. I assume
that these are also the inputs from the nav radio. If not how does the VOR
head know left and right, or am I just missing something here?
Thanks for any help in finishing up my wiring. I've had a really
hard time getting info from the King website. I got my diagrams from Electric Bob's
site.
Thanks
Cam
Message 15
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| Subject: | Preflight check of SD-8? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
Coming "on line" and producing useful power are two different
things. The SD-8 can be expected to produce just enough voltage
to show some output current (just above current battery voltage)
at or just below "minimum speed for regulation." This is where
the loadmeter just ticks upward or the alternator raises bus
voltage by some small but observable amount.
Given that the SD-8 is RPM limited by vacuum pump pad output speeds
to some value much less than the 12A it delivers as a gear or belt
driven power source in other applications, one can expect not to get
full output current from the SD-8 at anything other than max cruise
RPM.
Bob . . .
At 02:02 PM 3/23/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken Harrill
><KHarrill@osa.state.sc.us>
>
>
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken Harrill
><KHarrill@osa.state.sc.us>
>
>Matt,
>
>As well as I recall, it does not come online at all until around 1500 RPM. I
>don't remember if it subsequently goes off line if the RPM is lowered. My
>habit is to check during runup, not at idle. I will check when I get a
>chance to fly again.
>
>Ken Harrill
>RV-6, 300 hours
>Columbia, SC
>
>
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" <mprather@spro.net>
>
>A good point about needing more RPM to get the SD-8 to put
>out useful power. Ken, do you get zero output below 1500RPM,
>or just less than the total regulated output? The reason I ask
>is that I think the B&C 200G on my Continental starts raising
>bus voltage by about 1000RPM.
>
>Matt-
>N34RD
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: PM Alternator |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 01:56 PM 3/23/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken Harrill
><KHarrill@osa.state.sc.us>
>
>* AeroElectric-List message posted by: klehman@albedo.net
>
>
>Maybe I'll experiment a bit to see if I can run the engine off the PM
>alternator without tying it to the battery. A large capacitor might make
>that possible. A small computer battery if need be. That would also achieve
>the electrical redundancy that I'd like. Kind of a Z-13 1/2 ;)
>thanks
>Ken
>
>Ken,
>In my RV-6 I modified the "All Electric On a Budget" system such that the
>SD-8 circuit includes a small .8(that's 8/10ths)AH battery and is completely
>independent of the main electrical system. However, the SD-8 does not
>produce much current below about 1500 RPM, which may be of concern if it is
>used to power a second electronic ignition. (I use one mag.)
'Much' isn't very quantified. What kind of redundancy is being sought?
I presume the main alternator is a modern, lightweight design that's
already 10x more dependable than certified junk. There's an RG battery
on board that will receive better than certified preventative maintenance.
These two features alone offer MTBF numbers that leave spam cans in
the dirt (or should I say "dark"). Adding the SD-8 on top of this
combination gives us failure tolerance unequaled in any certified ship
and 99% of the OBAM aircraft flying.
I'm mystified as to what failure mode(s) are being stacked together
to generate such concerns. Mind you, I'm not trying to convince
anyone to do (or not do) anything they wish with their airplanes.
My concern is for lurkers on the list that read various threads
of obsession and wonder if they should obsessing too.
Bob . . .
-----------------------------------------
( Experience and common sense cannot be )
( replaced with policy and procedures. )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
-----------------------------------------
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: small high cca batteries |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 12:41 PM 3/23/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chad Robinson
><crobinson@rfgonline.com>
>
>Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> > Even in their finest hour, the TFT batteries were flaky
> > and unreliable. Not ready for prime time in aircraft.
> > If it were my airplane, I used a pair of 17 a.h. batteries
> > in the 3 x 7 x 7 inch formal. $35 to $60 each, inexpensive,
> > robust and made by everybody who is anybody in the battery
>
>Bob, do you or does anybody else on this list happen to know what one of
>these
>batteries might weigh? I'm way to early to be buying one but I'm trying to
>figure out where they'll go and I'd like to know how they would affect my
>W&B.
>Since I'm a very light pilot I'm considering putting them up front (this is a
>pusher, so the decision is important).
The 3 x 3 x 7 format batteries are in the 14# range. See
http://www.aeroelectric.com/temp/lc-rd1217p.pdf
for a typical battery.
Bob . . .
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: 3 Questions for Bob |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 10:50 AM 3/23/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Matt Jurotich
><mjurotich@hst.nasa.gov>
>
>Bob
>
>1) You said in a reply to send my LR3C-14 voltage regulator. and you would
>upgrade it to the newer configuration. Can you check out its proper
>functioning at the same time? I expect to pay for this, how much? The
>address I have is
>
>6936 Bainbridge Road
>Wichita, KS 67226-1008
>
>Is this correct?
First, we need to be sure it's in need of an upgrade. I don't
have a test stand here. you'd need to send it to B&C for
full functional testing. The "upgrade" I'm thinking of has
to do with changing a resistor value to reduce if not eliminate
nuisance tripping. Are you having problems with nuisance trips?
>2) Will this W31X2M1G5 switch breaker be OK for the 5 amp pullable breaker
>for the field wire to LR3C-14 voltage regulator? It is half the price of
>the pullable breaker from B&C.
sure
>3) Do you have a kit for the poor man's battery tester or a cartoon of how
>to build one. I have finally found an 120 volt AC electric clock. I have
>not held a soldering iron for forty years and I was not real skillful back
>then.
No, you can get the parts at Radio Shack
Bob . . .
-----------------------------------------
( Experience and common sense cannot be )
( replaced with policy and procedures. )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
-----------------------------------------
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: LSE Plasma III electrical noise |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 08:45 AM 3/23/2004 -0600, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Sam Hoskins" <shoskins@mchsi.com>
>
>I thought I was finished with the installation of my LSE Plasma III into my
>all composite Q-200. I am running the one mag/one electronic system. I
>went out for the test flight, but the tower was unable to read me.
>"Aircraft calling ground, unreadable".
Have you listened to the output from your transmitter? You need
to have someone else talk to you while you're on a hand held 100'
or more away. What does the radio sound like? An "unreadable"
report may have nothing to do with the ignition system. Does the
tower say you're now quite clear with the ignition system off?
>After I fiddled with the squelch, I found there was a mid-range tone, quite
>loud, whenever I had the LSE switched ON. I shut down the engine and found
>the same thing; the noise was just as bad. (I have a Wag-Aero ICS Plus
>Nav/Com, about 12 years old).
If you're hearing noise in your headphones, then this may not
have anything to do with the radio. It might be an audio system
problem.
>I called Klaus and he said I was picking up inductive coupling from the
>oscillator. I admit I had diverted from his instructions just a little bit.
>For the 12V supply I ran an unshielded wire from the battery to a 5A breaker
>in the panel. From there, his shielded wire runs to the LSE brain box. The
>shielded ground wire runs from the brain box to the ground buss, which is
>mounted about 18" aft of the firewall. His instructions say it should go
>all the way to the battery.
shielded ground wire?????
>My com antenna lead is RG58 and it runs in intimate proximity with the
>unshielded 12V supply line to the battery. The com antenna is in the
>vertical stab, and the battery is in the baggage compartment, aft of the
>passenger seat.
If you are hearing power supply noise from the ignition system
then it's 1000% better to filter it off at the source than
to re-route wires in an attempt to "live with the noise".
>Klaus suggested separating the com antenna leads from any power leads, and
>run shielded wire, straight to the battery per plans, including the CB. That
>is what I now intend to do.
>
>
>Any more thoughts or suggestions?
These are all shots in the dark. Have you read the chapter on
noise? What experiments have you run to make sure we're talking
about the right antagonist, the right victim and then isolate
the propagation mode? If Klaus or anyone else has you changing
configuration of your installation wiring in an attempt to mitigate
a noise problem, then they're admitting that their product isn't
really suited for installation in your airplane.
Let's chop and hack on things because we've deduced the
action to be a useful thing to try instead of trying lots
of things because they "might" help.
Bob . . .
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Garmin 340 Audio panel question - RG400 to D-Sub? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 10:59 PM 3/19/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: N566u@aol.com
>
>Hi Bob
>
>Hope you can help me. I am in the final stages of putting my RV 8A together,
>and today I attached my left wing to the fuselage. I ran the RG 400 cable
>from
>the marker beacon antenna in the wing tip to the rear of the panel and
>discovered that the audio panel (GMA 340) which has a marker beacon
>receiver, has no
>co-ax connector for the antenna. I checked the diagram for the two plugs and
>found P1 lists pin 1 and 2 as the inputs for the marker beacon antenna.
>
>My question is, how do I connect the RG 400 to the D Sub plug?
Here's how I would do it:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/RG400_Dsub/RG400_Dsub_1.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/RG400_Dsub/RG400_Dsub_2.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/RG400_Dsub/RG400_Dsub_3.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/RG400_Dsub/RG400_Dsub_4.jpg
Give me your mailing address and I'll send you the "prototype"
in the pictures.
Bob . . .
-----------------------------------------
( Experience and common sense cannot be )
( replaced with policy and procedures. )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
-----------------------------------------
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: King wiring questions |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 02:18 PM 3/23/2004 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Hi There <rv90619@yahoo.com>
>
>
>I've got a few questions about wiring my KT76a, KX125, KI208, and an
>ITC-402P intercom. I have the pin diagrams for each of these, but the
>terms don't seem to always line up. The ones I'm having problems with are:
>
>**KX125 PINS**
>
>COM AUDIO IN
>COM AUDIO HI
>COM AUDIO LOW
>COM DET AUDIO OUT
>COM REMOTE XFR
>NAV AUDIO OUT HI
>NAV AUDIO OUT LO
>NAV AUDIO IN
>NAV REMOTE XFR
>(Do one of these go to the intercom? My intercom only calls for one input
>from the radio)
>
>
>VOR/LOC COMPOSITE IN
>VOR/LOC COMPOSITE OUT
>(which one goes to the VOR/LOC INPUT on the KI208?)
>
>
>ILS GROUND
>(does this go with ILS COMMON on the KI208? If not what goes to the ILS
>COMMON?)
>
>
>**KT76A PINS**
>
>D4 (My encoder doesn't have an output for this, do I need it?)
>
>
>**KI208**
>
>
>On the KI208 the + LEFT OUTPUT and the + RIGHT OUTPUT are labeled as
>outputs for the auto pilot. There are no other left or right pins in the
>diagram. I assume that these are also the inputs from the nav radio. If
>not how does the VOR head know left and right, or am I just missing
>something here?
>
>
>Thanks for any help in finishing up my wiring. I've had a really
>hard time getting info from the King website. I got my diagrams from
>Electric Bob's site.
>
>Thanks
>Cam
Do you have installation instructions for these pieces of equipment?
There may be more issues than those you've identified above. I suggest
you visit a local avionics shop and see if they'll give you access to
their library where you'll find installation details that are
much more illuminating than the pin-out diagrams I've posted. They're
not intended to be a substitute for real systems integration instructions.
Bob . . .
Message 22
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 01:34 PM 3/20/2004 +0000, you wrote:
>Below is the result of your inquiry. It was submitted by
>lucky macy (luckymacy@hotmail.com) on Saturday, March 20, 2004 at 05:34:35
>
>Saturday, March 20, 2004
>
>lucky macy
>
>,
>Email: luckymacy@hotmail.com
>Comments/Questions: Bob, I want to make a new custom length ELT antenna
>which can be base mounted at a bulkhead and run horizontal under the
>vertical stab. So I need the antenna base to be threaded so I can tighten
>it down with a nut like the stock antenna is designed.
>
>I also have heard of another RV8 builder using a copper strip bonded to
>the inside of his empennage fairing and somehow putting a BNC fitting to
>it so that it would work with the stock antenna chord. However, I'd
>rather not go that route. I don't know how he supported the connecter and
>don't want to fool with that issue while taking the fairing on and off anyway.
>
>I have your book but can't quite decide how to tackle this job.
>
>Did I miss something on your website or in the book or otherwise do you
>have an idea on how to replicate the stock bottom end?
>
>thanks in advance,
>lucky
This can probably be done but you'll need access to an antenna
analyzer to trim the finished antenna to length. Further, sticking
it in the location you've cited will have profound effects on
overall performance of the system. Did the other builder cite any
testing that was done to confirm antenna matching and performance?
Bob . . .
-----------------------------------------
( Experience and common sense cannot be )
( replaced with policy and procedures. )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
-----------------------------------------
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Dancing Ammeter |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 10:06 AM 3/19/2004 -0600, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Metcalfe, Lee, AIR"
><Lee.Metcalfe@jocogov.org>
>
>My flying Lancair 320 has 517 hrs. TT. Within the last few hours of
>flying, the ammeter has begun a rhythmic wiggle at about 1.5 cycles per
>second with about a 10 amp amplitude. Occasionally the amplitude will
>go full scale with no apparent triggering event. Adding load just moves
>the range of the wiggle further up the scale. The frequency of the
>wiggle is independent of engine RPM. It's the same at idle as at full
>tilt boogie. I have pulled the alternator (generic automotive type,
>externally regulated) and had it tested. No problems. I have checked,
>cleaned and tightened all connections in the
>alternator/regulator/battery circuits. I'm now down to either the
>regulator or the meter being bad. The meter is one of those combined
>ammeter/voltmeter jobbies where it normally shows amps and you push a
>button for volts. The ammeter is shunted from the B lead, which goes
>through a 35-amp breaker to the main bus. The voltage indication is
>rock steady and agrees with the digital voltage shown in my EDM-700.
>The battery (Odyssey PC925) seems to be being charged normally. The
>regulator is a generic automotive type and is the original installation
>(517 hrs.). It is mounted on the engine side of the firewall in a very
>difficult place to get to (I didn't build my plane). Changing it is
>going to be a major pain. That's why I wanted to get y'all's feedback
>before attacking the regulator.
>
>Any suggestions for further troubleshooting? I have a digital
>multimeter but don't know how to use it to diagnose this situation.
Dancing ammeters are almost always due to increasing resistance
of wiring and components between the bus and the regulator's "bus"
terminal.
Hundreds of Cessna's and Pipers do this every year. Most get "fixed"
by replacing the regulator or perhaps one of the suspect components like
the split rocker master switch. Here's a post from some last year:
At 11:58 PM 8/27/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>I felt pretty certain that if you recommended hooking the regulator right
>to the back of the alternator, and then followed the appropriate
>connection you knew things would settle down nicely. Well, they did just
>that! The ammeter was rock steady to the charging side, and the voltage
>read a solid 14.4
>Now the follow up to get these same results once the voltage regulator is
>reinstalled, and not hanging off the alternator. The other thing I noted
>was that when hooked up in this manner the alternator side of the split
>master was not working, but I'm sure you knew that would happen.
>
>Let me know what's next, and thanks!
Okay, this experiment was important to tell
us that the components were okay and that you
didn't have a flaky regulator or bouncing brushes
in the alternator.
I'd start at the bus (did I ask whether you're
using fuseblocks or breakers?) and check to see
that you have good terminals, at least 20AWG wire
all the way to the regulator's "A/S" terminals.
If the regulator is mounted on the firewall,
grounding isn't an issue for the regulator . . .
and seldom does grounding affect stability . . .
only voltage setting.
Also, you mentioned that the "alternator side
of the split master was not working" . . . I'd
bet that MOST of your circuit resistance is
happening in that switch. I have a plastic
bag full of perfectly good looking split-rocker
switches that were sent to me after putting
in a new one cured a bouncy ammeter complaint.
This has occurred in countless certified ships
and a few OBAM aircraft. This doesn't mean that
the split-rocker is necessarily a "bad" product
(it's made by Carling and uses the same guts
as the S700 series toggle switches B&C sells).
Regulators are sensitive to small amounts of
resistance in the lines between bus and regulator.
I had one builder who mounted his regulator within
a few inches of the bus, tied the A/S terminals
directly to the breaker with short, single,
solid wire and put his alternator control switch
in series with the field wire. He added crowbar
ov protection to the breaker and ended up with
a combination that would probably be stable over
the lifetime of the airplane.
In older production Cessnas, I think I counted
20 some odd crimps, connections and spring-pressure
maintained metal-metal contacts between bus and
regulator. As all of these joints age, they add
resistance to the circuit. At some point in time,
the system becomes unstable with symptoms you
have observed.
Thousands of spam-can owners have paid out $millions$
to ignorant mechanics who replaced EVERYTHING BUT
aged/compromised wiring before finally renewing the
bus-to-regulator components. In many cases, owners
have reported that replacing only the spilt-rocker
"fixed" the problem. Indeed this single component
can be a major contributor of total loop resistance.
But consider that if NEW loop resistance was on
the order of 50 milliohms and had climbed to
100 milliohms with the switch contributing
25 ohms of de-stabilizing resistance. Replacing
the switch drops total down to 75 milliohms and
the regulator is happy again . . . but not for
as long as it would be when replacing ALL
sources of age/service related resistance
in the bus-to-regulator pathway.
The obvious, elegant solution in original
design is to incorporate a regulator that separates
voltage sense wires from field current supply
wires. The LR-3 does just that. Any new regulators
I design will have separate sense wires too.
Does this suggest that the OBAM community
should rip out all their three-terminal
switchers and bolt on the LR-3? Not at all.
The automotive style regulators have for the
most part given good value but they DO have
special characteristics that only one mechanic
in 1000 understands. In the spam-can world,
ignorance is shoveled out at $thousands$ per
non-idea, in the OBAM aircraft world, we've managed to
keep those costs MUCH lower . . . and much of
it happens right here on the AeroElectric
List.
Bob . . .
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