Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:02 AM - Re: Ebay bargain (Benford2@aol.com)
2. 04:26 AM - Re: Essential Bus Heat Sink (Trampas)
3. 07:56 AM - Re: Essential Bus Heat Sink (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 08:21 AM - Re: Ebay bargain (Dj Merrill)
5. 08:55 AM - separate battery for EI (Troy Scott)
6. 09:14 AM - Separate start battery for Plasma II, Part II (Troy Scott)
7. 09:37 AM - Re: Essential Bus Heat Sink (Eric M. Jones)
8. 10:42 AM - Re: Separate start battery for Plasma II, Part (Chad Robinson)
9. 10:50 AM - [ Greg Campbell ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (Email List Photo Shares)
10. 02:05 PM - Battery on its side? (Chad Robinson)
11. 03:45 PM - Re: Separate start battery for Plasma II, (richard@riley.net)
12. 04:02 PM - Re: Battery on its side? (Mike Nellis)
13. 04:23 PM - Re: Separate start battery for Plasma II, Part II (Trampas)
14. 06:20 PM - Re: Separate start battery for Plasma II, Part (Chad Robinson)
15. 10:27 PM - LR3C-14 always flashes (Dan Checkoway)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Ebay bargain |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com
In a message dated 3/27/2004 12:53:21 AM Mountain Standard Time,
richard@riley.net writes:
>
> It says it's a JET p/n 501-1186-01, and it's also marked as an ARU-54/A. I
> tried for a while to get a wiring diagram for it, but got nowhere. Finally
> I found that an ARU-54/A comes out of an AV8B Harrier. Since I work at
> Boeing, I started sending some emails, and finally found someone who told
> me that the generic part number from JET (now L3) is TSI-100A.
>
> So I did some more research, and finally got JET to send me a pin
> out. It's 24v DC, internally lit 5v DC. I also found a price list on
> line. The box that I bought (in working condition, BTW) for $12 has a list
> price of $24,425.
>
> Yes, it is going in my panel.
>
No wonder the government is 6 TRILLON in debt....... do not archive.
Message 2
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| Subject: | Essential Bus Heat Sink |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Trampas" <tstern@nc.rr.com>
Well, last I checked power=volts * amps. Therefore the diode we will assume
is a Schottky, with low voltage drop, let's assume 0.5 Volt. Then you said
you have 10Amps, so .5*10=5Watts. 5 Watts will generate some heat in an
enclosed box, however having the diode mounted such that it is open to the
air should be enough to keep it cool. A good way to check it is to connect
it up and turn every thing on and lightly touch it, if it is really hot then
put heat sink on it.
Regards,
Trampas
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ross
Mickey
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Essential Bus Heat Sink
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ross Mickey"
<rmickey@ix.netcom.com>
Based on my recent conversations with Tim at B&C, the answer is...no one
knows. Bob has been planning on doing some testing but I don't think he
has gotten to it yet. I rigged my regulator up with an Intel CPU fan
with heat sink. I haven't done any testing yet but it sure looks like
it will help a lot.
Ross Mickey
N9PT
> -----Original Message-----
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Essential Bus Heat Sink
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gerry Clabots"
> <gclabots@execpc.com>
>
> I would like to know if mounting B&C Essential bus diode on
> the sub panel of my RV is enough of a heat sink to allow me a
> maximun of 10 amps load?
> If not how do I determine how large of a heat sink I should use?
> Gerry
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Essential Bus Heat Sink |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 06:50 PM 3/26/2004 -0600, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gerry Clabots" <gclabots@execpc.com>
>
>I would like to know if mounting B&C Essential bus diode on the sub panel
>of my RV is enough of a heat sink to allow me a maximun of 10 amps load?
>If not how do I determine how large of a heat sink I should use?
It's probably fine on any metal surface that's part of the airplane.
Is your 10A load continuous or just peaks at that load during transmit?
The continuous load is the critical number but even at 10A, bolting
it to an aluminum surface with a layer of heat-sink grease under it
is going to be fine. You can get a little tube of heat-sink grease
at Radio Shack.
Bob . . .
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Ebay bargain |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dj Merrill <deej@thayer.dartmouth.edu>
Benford2@aol.com wrote:
>>line. The box that I bought (in working condition, BTW) for $12 has a list
>>price of $24,425.
>
>
> No wonder the government is 6 TRILLON in debt....... do not archive.
Well, now it is 6 trillion minus $12... *grin*
-Dj
Message 5
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| Subject: | separate battery for EI |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Troy Scott" <tscott1217@bellsouth.net>
<< Since you can't control the product, then
control the environment in which it operates.
Bob . . .>>
BRAVO!! BRAVO!!
Lately I see discussions mostly about voltage/EI problems. Actually, MANY
of the affordable, uncertified products (and some certified ones!) we
builders like to use have similar problems. I believe one adjustment to the
power system is more practical than trying to retrofit external fixes to
each problematic device.
Regards,
Troy
tscott1217@bellsouth.net
Message 6
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| Subject: | Separate start battery for Plasma II, Part II |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Troy Scott" <tscott1217@bellsouth.net>
Chad,
I can't see from your drawing which side of the diode the capacitor connects
to. My EE says if it connects to the LSE side of the diode, it will never
completely charge. What's the weight of the capacitor?
Regards,
Troy
tscott1217@bellsouth.net
<<I haven't reinstalled my schematics capture package but here's a crude
ASCII
representation (you need a fixed-width font to see it properly, if it comes
out strange and you run Windows, cut/paste it into Notepad):
Diode
Main bus >-------|>[-----+-------> LSE
|
--- +
--- Cap
|
GND
Message 7
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| Subject: | RE: Essential Bus Heat Sink |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gerry Clabots"
<gclabots@execpc.com>
>I would like to know if mounting B&C Essential bus diode on the sub panel
of my
>RV is enough of a heat sink to allow me a maximum of 10 amps load?
>If not how do I determine how large of a heat sink I should use?
>Gerry
SMART PILL#1: http://w1.859.telia.com/~u85920178/begin/heat-0.htm
Review: I have designed scores of heatsinks and read hundreds of technical
guides. I even made A's in thermodynamics classes. This was written by a
Swedish gentleman named Harry Lythall (SM0VPO) and it is stunningly clear
and the best thing I have ever seen on the subject. Great Job! Someone
should give this guy that Swedish prize medal thingy!
SMART PILL#2: A Schottky diode has very low forward voltage drop. Your
cellphone has no antique P-N power-hog diodes, so why does your airplane
deserve less? At 10 Amps, the Schottky dissipates 3.2W. A P-N diode
dissipates 9.2W. Now 6 Watts of power doesn't seem like much. But if your
engine is 20% efficient and your alternator is 40% efficient (typical). It
costs you 75W or 1/10 HP all the time--even if you don't consider the
additional weight penalty the added heatsink imposes. Thanks for the free
advertising. Buy my Space Shuttle Switch Guards! They are stunning!
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
Phone (508) 764-2072
Email: emjones@charter.net
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Separate start battery for Plasma II, Part |
II
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chad Robinson <crobinson@rfgonline.com>
Troy Scott wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Troy Scott" <tscott1217@bellsouth.net>
>
> Chad,
>
> I can't see from your drawing which side of the diode the capacitor connects
> to. My EE says if it connects to the LSE side of the diode, it will never
> completely charge. What's the weight of the capacitor?
>
> Regards,
> Troy
> tscott1217@bellsouth.net
>
> <<I haven't reinstalled my schematics capture package but here's a crude
> ASCII
> representation (you need a fixed-width font to see it properly, if it comes
> out strange and you run Windows, cut/paste it into Notepad):
>
> Diode
> Main bus >-------|>[-----+-------> LSE
> |
> --- +
> --- Cap
> |
> GND
It's on the LSE side. Not sure what your EE is referring to - the capacitor
will charge to whatever voltage it sees on its bus. This will be the same
voltage the LSE sees. THAT will be the main bus voltage minus the forward
voltage drop of the diode. I recommended a Schottky because its drop is only
about half a volt, so if your bus is running 13.8V both the LSE and capacitor
will see 13.3V. Maybe that's what he meant by never completely charging - it
will never reach 13.8V, but neither will the LSE, and neither the cap nor the
LSE really care.
At times when the main bus voltage drops, the diode will turn off and the
capacitor will power the LSE. A small capacitor doesn't have enough energy to
support the LSE for seconds or minutes, but for transients like the starter
inrush it should be fine as long as it's large enough.
If you want the actual math, well, hopefully I don't mix this up but here goes.
A capacitor time constant is the time it takes to charge to 63 percent of its
capacity, or discharge to 36.8%. It's a curve, so while discharging, about
half a time constant leaves it at around 60% capacity, which would be around
8V. Hopefully the LSE will work down to that. If not, go buy something else. =)
The formula for a time constant is t = R * C. We want t, we know C (let's use
4700uF as a starting point), and we don't know R. However, given that the LSE
draws about 1.3A this is similar to discharging the capacitor into a 10 ohm
resistor to ground. So t = 10 * .0047 or 0.047 seconds (47 milliseconds). Half
that is 23.5 milliseconds, and that is how long we should expect this
capacitor to support this device when the main bus voltage disappears.
Now, I don't know how long your starter inrush lasts but the best estimate I
have from a few quick Google searches is to expect between 30 and 50
milliseconds. So you probably want double or triple the 4700uF I suggested,
sorry about that (I just grabbed a moderately high number out of a hat).
Digikey sells a Panasonic 12000 uF capacitor $6.38 that is rated for up to
50V. It adds a buck or two to the earlier estimate but it's still not bad.
You can get away with a smaller value if your LSE is only drawing 1.2A instead
of 1.3A, if you parallel two of them (paralleling capacitors sums their
values), if the LSE will work to a lower voltage (maybe 6-7V?), or if your
starter inrush is of a shorter duration. Maybe Bob can provide some
expectations for that. I seem to recall him having some oscilloscope graphs of
these events.
Also, this back-of-napkin-math is sort of a worst-case view. It assumes inrush
is basically a square wave - it disappears, it stays gone, it comes back - but
inrush doesn't work that way. The voltage drops in a hurry but returns in a
curve and as soon as it gets above what the capacitor is at plus the diode's
voltage drop, the main bus will take the load back over. That means the
capacitor doesn't have to hold the line the entire time for the main bus to
get back to 13.8V. Assuming your minimum tolerance is 8V, it only has to get
you through to the point where you're back up to 8.5V. A good capture
oscilloscope would tell you what's what here, or you can just add a dollar or
two, buy a monster capacitor, and call it a day.
An easier way is to find somebody who salvages capacitors from old
electronics. A single computer power supply will give up 5-10 of them, just be
sure they're rated for at least 15V. You can also find these in trashed
electronics at dumps/transfer stations. Even if you exceed the voltage rating
for a test or two it won't be the end of the world. They're really easy to
identify - they look like small cans, and have a minus sign on a silver or
gold band on one side. Try them out, adding one 4700uF at a time in parallel,
until you find a combination that eliminates your problem, then add up the
values, add some margin, and use that figure to determine which actual value
to buy. You only need to buy the expensive variety for safety and lifetime in
a permanent installation.
Regards,
Chad
Message 9
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| Subject: | [ Greg Campbell ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Email List Photo Shares <pictures@matronics.com>
A new Email List Photo Share is available:
Poster: Greg Campbell <GregCampbellUSA@earthlink.net>
Subject: Piper Style Ground Power Socket with bolted center connector
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/GregCampbellUSA@earthlink.net.03.27.2004/index.html
o Main Photo Share Index
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
o Submitting a Photo Share
If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the
following information along with your email message and files:
1) Email List or Lists that they are related to:
2) Your Full Name:
3) Your Email Address:
4) One line Subject description:
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic:
6) One-line Description of each photo or file:
Email the information above and your files and photos to:
pictures@matronics.com
Message 10
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| Subject: | Battery on its side? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chad Robinson <crobinson@rfgonline.com>
I can't seem to find many references to this, so I thought I'd ask here. Since
it's sealed, can an RG battery be used on its side, or is it best to keep it
upright? I have a perfect place to put it that has more horizontal than
vertical room...
Regards,
Chad
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Separate start battery for Plasma II, |
Part II
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: richard@riley.net
How about replacing the cap with a couple of lithium batteries? A C size
Tadiran holds 8.5 AH at 3.6v, with 3 of them you'd have protection for
starting, backup for electrical failure, light weight...
At 01:42 PM 3/27/04 -0500, Chad Robinson wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chad Robinson
><crobinson@rfgonline.com>
>
>Troy Scott wrote:
> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Troy Scott"
> <tscott1217@bellsouth.net>
> >
> > Chad,
> >
> > I can't see from your drawing which side of the diode the capacitor
> connects
> > to. My EE says if it connects to the LSE side of the diode, it will never
> > completely charge. What's the weight of the capacitor?
> >
> > Regards,
> > Troy
> > tscott1217@bellsouth.net
> >
> > <<I haven't reinstalled my schematics capture package but here's a crude
> > ASCII
> > representation (you need a fixed-width font to see it properly, if it comes
> > out strange and you run Windows, cut/paste it into Notepad):
> >
> > Diode
> > Main bus >-------|>[-----+-------> LSE
> > |
> > --- +
> > --- Cap
> > |
> > GND
>
>It's on the LSE side. Not sure what your EE is referring to - the capacitor
>will charge to whatever voltage it sees on its bus. This will be the same
>voltage the LSE sees. THAT will be the main bus voltage minus the forward
>voltage drop of the diode. I recommended a Schottky because its drop is only
>about half a volt, so if your bus is running 13.8V both the LSE and capacitor
>will see 13.3V. Maybe that's what he meant by never completely charging - it
>will never reach 13.8V, but neither will the LSE, and neither the cap nor the
>LSE really care.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Battery on its side? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mike Nellis" <mike@bmnellis.com>
The battery in my Honda RC51 motorcycle sits on its side and works fine.
Mike Nellis
RV-6 Fuselage N699BM
1947 Stinson 108-2 NC9666K
http://bmnellis.com
*** -----Original Message-----
*** From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
*** [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On
*** Behalf Of Chad Robinson
*** Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 4:06 PM
*** To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
*** Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery on its side?
***
***
*** --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chad Robinson
*** --> <crobinson@rfgonline.com>
***
*** I can't seem to find many references to this, so I thought
*** I'd ask here. Since
*** it's sealed, can an RG battery be used on its side, or is
*** it best to keep it
*** upright? I have a perfect place to put it that has more
*** horizontal than
*** vertical room...
***
*** Regards,
*** Chad
***
***
*** ==============
*** Matronics Forums.
*** ==============
*** ==============
*** http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm
*** http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list
*** http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list
*** ==============
***
***
***
***
***
***
***
Message 13
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| Subject: | Separate start battery for Plasma II, Part II |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Trampas" <tstern@nc.rr.com>
I am interested if anyone would want a device that could take 8-30Vdc input
and provide 12.0Vdc output filtered at about 2 Amps. I was just noting that
I have designed such a power supply for my engine monitor. That is I
designed my system to handle low voltage, noisy power and other problems.
However it seems that others have not, so I was wondering if it would be a
good idea to provide a small little device which filters and provides a nice
clean 12Vdc for other devices. By the way the weight for my power supply is
much less than the radio shack filters most people are using.
The product I am thinking of would be:
8v - 30V (3.2-1 Amp) input, yes 8V input produces 12V output
12V DC output @ 2 Amp filtered
Plus internal self resetting circuit breaker
Maybe optional low voltage and over current warning indicators?
Regards,
Trampas
www.sterntech.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
richard@riley.net
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Separate start battery for Plasma II, Part
II
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: richard@riley.net
How about replacing the cap with a couple of lithium batteries? A C size
Tadiran holds 8.5 AH at 3.6v, with 3 of them you'd have protection for
starting, backup for electrical failure, light weight...
At 01:42 PM 3/27/04 -0500, Chad Robinson wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chad Robinson
><crobinson@rfgonline.com>
>
>Troy Scott wrote:
> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Troy Scott"
> <tscott1217@bellsouth.net>
> >
> > Chad,
> >
> > I can't see from your drawing which side of the diode the capacitor
> connects
> > to. My EE says if it connects to the LSE side of the diode, it will
never
> > completely charge. What's the weight of the capacitor?
> >
> > Regards,
> > Troy
> > tscott1217@bellsouth.net
> >
> > <<I haven't reinstalled my schematics capture package but here's a crude
> > ASCII
> > representation (you need a fixed-width font to see it properly, if it
comes
> > out strange and you run Windows, cut/paste it into Notepad):
> >
> > Diode
> > Main bus >-------|>[-----+-------> LSE
> > |
> > --- +
> > --- Cap
> > |
> > GND
>
>It's on the LSE side. Not sure what your EE is referring to - the capacitor
>will charge to whatever voltage it sees on its bus. This will be the same
>voltage the LSE sees. THAT will be the main bus voltage minus the forward
>voltage drop of the diode. I recommended a Schottky because its drop is
only
>about half a volt, so if your bus is running 13.8V both the LSE and
capacitor
>will see 13.3V. Maybe that's what he meant by never completely charging -
it
>will never reach 13.8V, but neither will the LSE, and neither the cap nor
the
>LSE really care.
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Separate start battery for Plasma II, Part |
II
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chad Robinson <crobinson@rfgonline.com>
True enough. I started out by simply suggesting a smaller battery than the
original poster. It was Bob that suggested even a capacitor could do the
trick. If it can be sized properly, the capacitor is definitely the LIGHTEST
option. My real vote is for the diode to replace the switch, since I believe
it will produce a much more reliable (and lower pilot workload) solution.
There is admittedly some advantage in having a battery since it would provide
some power redundancy to this critical device. But I prefer Bob's dual-battery
or dual-alternator layouts for that, since if I have a power failure I
certainly care about more than just the ignition system. For example, I sort
of might like to still have one radio available while I am trying to land as
quickly as possible... =)
richard@riley.net wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: richard@riley.net
>
> How about replacing the cap with a couple of lithium batteries? A C size
> Tadiran holds 8.5 AH at 3.6v, with 3 of them you'd have protection for
> starting, backup for electrical failure, light weight...
>
>
> At 01:42 PM 3/27/04 -0500, Chad Robinson wrote:
>
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chad Robinson
>><crobinson@rfgonline.com>
>>
>>Troy Scott wrote:
>>
>>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Troy Scott"
>>
>><tscott1217@bellsouth.net>
>>
>>>Chad,
>>>
>>>I can't see from your drawing which side of the diode the capacitor
>>
>>connects
>>
>>>to. My EE says if it connects to the LSE side of the diode, it will never
>>>completely charge. What's the weight of the capacitor?
>>>
>>>Regards,
>>>Troy
>>>tscott1217@bellsouth.net
>>>
>>><<I haven't reinstalled my schematics capture package but here's a crude
>>>ASCII
>>>representation (you need a fixed-width font to see it properly, if it comes
>>>out strange and you run Windows, cut/paste it into Notepad):
>>>
>>> Diode
>>>Main bus >-------|>[-----+-------> LSE
>>> |
>>> --- +
>>> --- Cap
>>> |
>>> GND
>>
>>It's on the LSE side. Not sure what your EE is referring to - the capacitor
>>will charge to whatever voltage it sees on its bus. This will be the same
>>voltage the LSE sees. THAT will be the main bus voltage minus the forward
>>voltage drop of the diode. I recommended a Schottky because its drop is only
>>about half a volt, so if your bus is running 13.8V both the LSE and capacitor
>>will see 13.3V. Maybe that's what he meant by never completely charging - it
>>will never reach 13.8V, but neither will the LSE, and neither the cap nor the
>>LSE really care.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | LR3C-14 always flashes |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
I have an LR3C-14 from B&C, and no matter what's happening, the low voltage
light always flashes. This is the case whether I just turned on the master
switch (anywhere from 12.1 to 13.5 volts on the main bus), or if the engine
is running and the alternator (B&C 40A L-40 alternator) is turned on (14.2
volts on the main bus).
I ran through B&C's troubleshooting list for the LR3C-14, and everything
checks out just fine. Still, the low voltage light continues to flash no
matter what the occasion.
I plan on contacting B&C on Monday, but does anybody have any ideas?
Thanks in advance,
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
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