Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:49 AM - Re: Battery on its side? (KITFOXZ@aol.com)
2. 07:24 AM - Separate Start Battery (Troy Scott)
3. 07:42 AM - separate start battery (Troy Scott)
4. 07:56 AM - Help please - (possible) alt/battery troubles (James Redmon)
5. 08:23 AM - Re: Battery on its side? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 08:24 AM - Re: LR3C-14 always flashes (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 08:27 AM - Re: Separate Start Battery (Chad Robinson)
8. 08:27 AM - Re: Separate start battery for Plasma II, (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 08:30 AM - Re: Battery on its side? (Chad Robinson)
10. 08:47 AM - Re: separate start battery (Trampas)
11. 08:58 AM - Re: LR3C-14 always flashes (Dan Checkoway)
12. 09:24 AM - Re: Help please - (possible) alt/battery troubles (mprather)
13. 10:08 AM - Re: Battery on its side? (Robert McCallum)
14. 12:59 PM - Re: Help please - (possible) alt/battery troubles (James Redmon)
15. 01:30 PM - Re: LR3C-14 always flashes (Dan Checkoway)
16. 02:25 PM - Re: LR3C-14 always flashes (KITFOXZ@aol.com)
17. 03:34 PM - Re: Help please - (possible) alt/battery troubles (James Redmon)
18. 03:37 PM - Re: Battery on its side? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
19. 04:31 PM - Re: LR3C-14 always flashes (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
20. 04:37 PM - Re: Battery contact screws (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
21. 05:18 PM - Re: LR3C-14 always flashes (Dan Checkoway)
22. 05:43 PM - Re: Separate start battery for Plasma II, Part (Chad Robinson)
23. 06:29 PM - Re: Battery contact screws (John Schroeder)
24. 06:49 PM - Santa Maria CA Fly-In (April 30-May 2) (Cory Emberson)
25. 06:58 PM - Re: LR3C-14 always flashes (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
26. 07:15 PM - Re: Battery contact screws (Chad Robinson)
27. 07:17 PM - Re: Help please - (possible) alt/battery troubles (mprather)
28. 08:31 PM - Re: LR3C-14 always flashes (Dan Checkoway)
29. 09:16 PM - Re: Help please - (possible) alt/battery troubles (James Redmon)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Battery on its side? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: KITFOXZ@aol.com
In a message dated 3/27/2004 5:09:29 PM Eastern Standard Time,
crobinson@rfgonline.com writes:
I can't seem to find many references to this, so I thought I'd ask here.
Since
it's sealed, can an RG battery be used on its side, or is it best to keep it
upright? I have a perfect place to put it that has more horizontal than
vertical room...
Regards,
Chad
Hello Chad, The electrolyte will not leak out of a sealed lead acid battery
(even if the seal is broken) because it is in suspension in a gauze type plate
separator.
John P. Marzluf
Columbus, Ohio
Kitfox Outback (out back in the garage)
Message 2
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| Subject: | Separate Start Battery |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Troy Scott" <tscott1217@bellsouth.net>
Chad,
Thanks for the enlightening post!
The fact that the cap would only charge to the lower voltage IS what my EE
friend was referring to.
I'm a pipe organ builder. We build large low-voltage DC systems. With
old-fashioned combination actions, the power supply would pulse every
drawknob in the console whenever a piston button was pushed. Occasionally
we would have a problem where there just wasn't enough "kick" to move them
all at once. For 25 years or so. we always installed the same big blue
capacitor to solve the problem. I haven't seen one in a long time, as our
new systems are smarter and only pulse the controls that actually need to
move. Anyway, it NEVER occurred to me to check the value of the capacitor!
That was BB and BAC (Before Bob and Before AeroElectric Connection). The
big blue cap was about 7 inches tall and about three inches in diameter.
Are we talking about one like that?
Regards,
Troy
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chad Robinson
<crobinson@rfgonline.com>
Troy Scott wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Troy Scott"
<tscott1217@bellsouth.net>
>
> Chad,
>
> I can't see from your drawing which side of the diode the capacitor
connects
> to. My EE says if it connects to the LSE side of the diode, it will never
> completely charge. What's the weight of the capacitor?
>
> Regards,
> Troy
> tscott1217@bellsouth.net
>
> <<I haven't reinstalled my schematics capture package but here's a crude
> ASCII
> representation (you need a fixed-width font to see it properly, if it
comes
> out strange and you run Windows, cut/paste it into Notepad):
>
> Diode
> Main bus >-------|>[-----+-------> LSE
> |
> --- +
> --- Cap
> |
> GND
It's on the LSE side. Not sure what your EE is referring to - the capacitor
will charge to whatever voltage it sees on its bus. This will be the same
voltage the LSE sees. THAT will be the main bus voltage minus the forward
voltage drop of the diode. I recommended a Schottky because its drop is only
about half a volt, so if your bus is running 13.8V both the LSE and
capacitor
will see 13.3V. Maybe that's what he meant by never completely charging - it
will never reach 13.8V, but neither will the LSE, and neither the cap nor
the
LSE really care.
At times when the main bus voltage drops, the diode will turn off and the
capacitor will power the LSE. A small capacitor doesn't have enough energy
to
support the LSE for seconds or minutes, but for transients like the starter
inrush it should be fine as long as it's large enough.
If you want the actual math, well, hopefully I don't mix this up but here
goes.
A capacitor time constant is the time it takes to charge to 63 percent of
its
capacity, or discharge to 36.8%. It's a curve, so while discharging, about
half a time constant leaves it at around 60% capacity, which would be around
8V. Hopefully the LSE will work down to that. If not, go buy something else.
=)
The formula for a time constant is t = R * C. We want t, we know C (let's
use
4700uF as a starting point), and we don't know R. However, given that the
LSE
draws about 1.3A this is similar to discharging the capacitor into a 10 ohm
resistor to ground. So t = 10 * .0047 or 0.047 seconds (47 milliseconds).
Half
that is 23.5 milliseconds, and that is how long we should expect this
capacitor to support this device when the main bus voltage disappears.
Now, I don't know how long your starter inrush lasts but the best estimate I
have from a few quick Google searches is to expect between 30 and 50
milliseconds. So you probably want double or triple the 4700uF I suggested,
sorry about that (I just grabbed a moderately high number out of a hat).
Digikey sells a Panasonic 12000 uF capacitor $6.38 that is rated for up to
50V. It adds a buck or two to the earlier estimate but it's still not bad.
You can get away with a smaller value if your LSE is only drawing 1.2A
instead
of 1.3A, if you parallel two of them (paralleling capacitors sums their
values), if the LSE will work to a lower voltage (maybe 6-7V?), or if your
starter inrush is of a shorter duration. Maybe Bob can provide some
expectations for that. I seem to recall him having some oscilloscope graphs
of
these events.
Also, this back-of-napkin-math is sort of a worst-case view. It assumes
inrush
is basically a square wave - it disappears, it stays gone, it comes back -
but
inrush doesn't work that way. The voltage drops in a hurry but returns in a
curve and as soon as it gets above what the capacitor is at plus the diode's
voltage drop, the main bus will take the load back over. That means the
capacitor doesn't have to hold the line the entire time for the main bus to
get back to 13.8V. Assuming your minimum tolerance is 8V, it only has to get
you through to the point where you're back up to 8.5V. A good capture
oscilloscope would tell you what's what here, or you can just add a dollar
or
two, buy a monster capacitor, and call it a day.
An easier way is to find somebody who salvages capacitors from old
electronics. A single computer power supply will give up 5-10 of them, just
be
sure they're rated for at least 15V. You can also find these in trashed
electronics at dumps/transfer stations. Even if you exceed the voltage
rating
for a test or two it won't be the end of the world. They're really easy to
identify - they look like small cans, and have a minus sign on a silver or
gold band on one side. Try them out, adding one 4700uF at a time in
parallel,
until you find a combination that eliminates your problem, then add up the
values, add some margin, and use that figure to determine which actual value
to buy. You only need to buy the expensive variety for safety and lifetime
in
a permanent installation.
Regards,
Chad
Message 3
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| Subject: | separate start battery |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Troy Scott" <tscott1217@bellsouth.net>
Trampas,
What happens to the output when/if the output voltage drops to 4 volts?
The device you've described should probably be part of many devices. I'm
thinking specifically of the BMA EFIS One and the ElectroAir EI systems. At
any rate, For your product to have good value for me, it would need to be
bigger than two amps. I would need minimum of 5.1 amps to keep the EFIS One
and one Electroair EI unit running well during engine start. A second,
smaller unit could be used for the other EI on another bus, to avoid the
"all my eggs in one basket" problem. BTW, before I get lambasted :-), I
know that some protection may be built into these devices, but BMA has
published a "fix" that uses a diode-protected auxiliary battery. Jeff Rose
at Electroair told me he's had a few problems, but only when his product is
used with a PM starter and subjected to the reduced starting voltage.
Regards,
Troy
tscott1217@bellsouth.net
Time: 04:23:06 PM PST US
From: "Trampas" <tstern@nc.rr.com>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Separate start battery for Plasma II, Part
II
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Trampas" <tstern@nc.rr.com>
I am interested if anyone would want a device that could take 8-30Vdc input
and provide 12.0Vdc output filtered at about 2 Amps. I was just noting that
I have designed such a power supply for my engine monitor. That is I
designed my system to handle low voltage, noisy power and other problems.
However it seems that others have not, so I was wondering if it would be a
good idea to provide a small little device which filters and provides a nice
clean 12Vdc for other devices. By the way the weight for my power supply is
much less than the radio shack filters most people are using.
The product I am thinking of would be:
8v - 30V (3.2-1 Amp) input, yes 8V input produces 12V output
12V DC output @ 2 Amp filtered
Plus internal self resetting circuit breaker
Maybe optional low voltage and over current warning indicators?
Regards,
Trampas
Message 4
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| Subject: | Help please - (possible) alt/battery troubles |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James Redmon" <james@berkut13.com>
All,
I'd like to report a very successful first engine run on Berkut #013 N97TX
yesterday. All mechanical systems are working flawlessly.
One problem that I can't really figure out that I would like to bounce off
of the group. I have the Z-12 installation by the book, (1) 17ah RG
battery, L-60 and L-20 B&C alts/regulators. It's in canard pusher
configuration with the long runs only for the panel power, all
charging/starting fat wires are in the aft compartment. I have the ACS2002
(flat panel) engine monitor system installed.
After the first couple of runs, I took the engine up to about 1800 RPM and
did the primary/secondary alt checks with all selectable equipment turned
off. When I flip the 60-amp alt on, the voltage pegs 13.6v - 13.8v, as it
should, and is rock steady. However, the amp meter reads 5...then up to10
slowly, then within the span of about two or three seconds continues to
climb to 30...50...60...etc. So I shut it down at that point. Same thing
happens when the secondary is engaged but to a lesser extent (smaller
alternator). Voltage is constant through-out the tests when either
alternator is engaged.
No cables get hot, no current limiters blow....and through all the systems
testing, not so much as a blown fuse to date. No electrical noise detected
on tests either...alts on and off. Resistance from ground lead on battery
to anywhere on engine block is .3 ohms. All wired with #4 and #2 cables on
starter/charging/ground systems.
Thoughts?
Bad sensor, or sensor calibration? Bad battery? Where should I start
looking?
C'mon, you "been there, done that" guys....whatcha think?
James Redmon
Berkut #013 N97TX
http://www.berkut13.com
(pics and movies to be posted shortly)
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Battery on its side? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 05:05 PM 3/27/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chad Robinson
><crobinson@rfgonline.com>
>
>I can't seem to find many references to this, so I thought I'd ask here.
>Since
>it's sealed, can an RG battery be used on its side, or is it best to keep it
>upright? I have a perfect place to put it that has more horizontal than
>vertical room...
To my knowledge, only Concord recommends NOT running their
RG batteries upside down . . . their technology of choice
as a small amount of free liquid and if an upside-down battery
vents, it will expel a small amount of water and acid. Aside
from this narrowly defined caveat, I not aware of any reason
to be concerned about operating position with RG batteries.
Many builders have been operating the 17 a.h. batteries large
side down for years. I have an RG battery in my un-interruptible
power supply for the office computers that has been operating
on-end for 4+ years. Even the Concords would be okay in
operationally as long as you don't beat them into wetting their
pants.
Bob . . .
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: LR3C-14 always flashes |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 10:25 PM 3/27/2004 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
>
>I have an LR3C-14 from B&C, and no matter what's happening, the low voltage
>light always flashes. This is the case whether I just turned on the master
>switch (anywhere from 12.1 to 13.5 volts on the main bus), or if the engine
>is running and the alternator (B&C 40A L-40 alternator) is turned on (14.2
>volts on the main bus).
>
>I ran through B&C's troubleshooting list for the LR3C-14, and everything
>checks out just fine. Still, the low voltage light continues to flash no
>matter what the occasion.
>
>I plan on contacting B&C on Monday, but does anybody have any ideas?
Can you give us voltage measurements taken from the power
input pins while the bus voltage is normal? If the power
input pins are all within a tenth or so volts of the bus,
then the LR3 has some problem internally. How is the LR3
grounded?
Bob . . .
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Separate Start Battery |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chad Robinson <crobinson@rfgonline.com>
Heck, no! =) A capacitor of that size would be in the farad range, not milli-
or micro-farads.
I picked a cap at random without investigating the data sheets too much, so I
don't SPECIFICALLY endorse this exact one (I havne't checked lifetime, temp
range etc.) but here's a link to the one I picked:
http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?Ref=6175&Row=333456&Site=US
The data sheet says this is a cylinder about 3.5cm x 3.5cm (1.37" x 1.37").
They come in all shapes and sizes so if you prefer longer and thinner you can
pick a different series or brand.
By the way, this is also the solution used by car audio enthusiasts to
stabilize line voltage when driving high-wattage amplifier and speaker loads.
However, we're talking hundreds to thousands of watts there, so your "big fat
friend" would be more applicable there. Those things are in the 0.5-1.0 farad
range, and cost $80-$200. To give you some idea of the scale, the 0.5 farad
capacitor is listed as being ideal for "systems up to 500 watts". That's the
equivalent of your LSE drawing 36 amps at 13.8V...
Troy Scott wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Troy Scott" <tscott1217@bellsouth.net>
>
> Chad,
>
> Thanks for the enlightening post!
> The fact that the cap would only charge to the lower voltage IS what my EE
> friend was referring to.
> I'm a pipe organ builder. We build large low-voltage DC systems. With
> old-fashioned combination actions, the power supply would pulse every
> drawknob in the console whenever a piston button was pushed. Occasionally
> we would have a problem where there just wasn't enough "kick" to move them
> all at once. For 25 years or so. we always installed the same big blue
> capacitor to solve the problem. I haven't seen one in a long time, as our
> new systems are smarter and only pulse the controls that actually need to
> move. Anyway, it NEVER occurred to me to check the value of the capacitor!
> That was BB and BAC (Before Bob and Before AeroElectric Connection). The
> big blue cap was about 7 inches tall and about three inches in diameter.
> Are we talking about one like that?
>
> Regards,
> Troy
>
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chad Robinson
> <crobinson@rfgonline.com>
>
> Troy Scott wrote:
>
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Troy Scott"
>
> <tscott1217@bellsouth.net>
>
>>Chad,
>>
>>I can't see from your drawing which side of the diode the capacitor
>
> connects
>
>>to. My EE says if it connects to the LSE side of the diode, it will never
>>completely charge. What's the weight of the capacitor?
>>
>>Regards,
>>Troy
>>tscott1217@bellsouth.net
>>
>><<I haven't reinstalled my schematics capture package but here's a crude
>>ASCII
>>representation (you need a fixed-width font to see it properly, if it
>
> comes
>
>>out strange and you run Windows, cut/paste it into Notepad):
>>
>> Diode
>>Main bus >-------|>[-----+-------> LSE
>> |
>> --- +
>> --- Cap
>> |
>> GND
>
>
> It's on the LSE side. Not sure what your EE is referring to - the capacitor
> will charge to whatever voltage it sees on its bus. This will be the same
> voltage the LSE sees. THAT will be the main bus voltage minus the forward
> voltage drop of the diode. I recommended a Schottky because its drop is only
> about half a volt, so if your bus is running 13.8V both the LSE and
> capacitor
> will see 13.3V. Maybe that's what he meant by never completely charging - it
> will never reach 13.8V, but neither will the LSE, and neither the cap nor
> the
> LSE really care.
>
> At times when the main bus voltage drops, the diode will turn off and the
> capacitor will power the LSE. A small capacitor doesn't have enough energy
> to
> support the LSE for seconds or minutes, but for transients like the starter
> inrush it should be fine as long as it's large enough.
>
> If you want the actual math, well, hopefully I don't mix this up but here
> goes.
>
> A capacitor time constant is the time it takes to charge to 63 percent of
> its
> capacity, or discharge to 36.8%. It's a curve, so while discharging, about
> half a time constant leaves it at around 60% capacity, which would be around
> 8V. Hopefully the LSE will work down to that. If not, go buy something else.
> =)
>
> The formula for a time constant is t = R * C. We want t, we know C (let's
> use
> 4700uF as a starting point), and we don't know R. However, given that the
> LSE
> draws about 1.3A this is similar to discharging the capacitor into a 10 ohm
> resistor to ground. So t = 10 * .0047 or 0.047 seconds (47 milliseconds).
> Half
>
> that is 23.5 milliseconds, and that is how long we should expect this
> capacitor to support this device when the main bus voltage disappears.
>
> Now, I don't know how long your starter inrush lasts but the best estimate I
> have from a few quick Google searches is to expect between 30 and 50
> milliseconds. So you probably want double or triple the 4700uF I suggested,
> sorry about that (I just grabbed a moderately high number out of a hat).
>
> Digikey sells a Panasonic 12000 uF capacitor $6.38 that is rated for up to
> 50V. It adds a buck or two to the earlier estimate but it's still not bad.
>
> You can get away with a smaller value if your LSE is only drawing 1.2A
> instead
>
> of 1.3A, if you parallel two of them (paralleling capacitors sums their
> values), if the LSE will work to a lower voltage (maybe 6-7V?), or if your
> starter inrush is of a shorter duration. Maybe Bob can provide some
> expectations for that. I seem to recall him having some oscilloscope graphs
> of
>
> these events.
>
> Also, this back-of-napkin-math is sort of a worst-case view. It assumes
> inrush
>
> is basically a square wave - it disappears, it stays gone, it comes back -
> but
>
> inrush doesn't work that way. The voltage drops in a hurry but returns in a
> curve and as soon as it gets above what the capacitor is at plus the diode's
> voltage drop, the main bus will take the load back over. That means the
> capacitor doesn't have to hold the line the entire time for the main bus to
> get back to 13.8V. Assuming your minimum tolerance is 8V, it only has to get
> you through to the point where you're back up to 8.5V. A good capture
> oscilloscope would tell you what's what here, or you can just add a dollar
> or
> two, buy a monster capacitor, and call it a day.
>
> An easier way is to find somebody who salvages capacitors from old
> electronics. A single computer power supply will give up 5-10 of them, just
> be
>
> sure they're rated for at least 15V. You can also find these in trashed
> electronics at dumps/transfer stations. Even if you exceed the voltage
> rating
> for a test or two it won't be the end of the world. They're really easy to
> identify - they look like small cans, and have a minus sign on a silver or
> gold band on one side. Try them out, adding one 4700uF at a time in
> parallel,
>
> until you find a combination that eliminates your problem, then add up the
> values, add some margin, and use that figure to determine which actual value
> to buy. You only need to buy the expensive variety for safety and lifetime
> in
> a permanent installation.
>
> Regards,
> Chad
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Separate start battery for Plasma II, |
Part II
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 09:20 PM 3/27/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chad Robinson
><crobinson@rfgonline.com>
>
>True enough. I started out by simply suggesting a smaller battery than the
>original poster. It was Bob that suggested even a capacitor could do the
>trick. If it can be sized properly, the capacitor is definitely the LIGHTEST
>option. My real vote is for the diode to replace the switch, since I believe
>it will produce a much more reliable (and lower pilot workload) solution.
>
>There is admittedly some advantage in having a battery since it would provide
>some power redundancy to this critical device. But I prefer Bob's
>dual-battery
>or dual-alternator layouts for that, since if I have a power failure I
>certainly care about more than just the ignition system. For example, I sort
>of might like to still have one radio available while I am trying to land as
>quickly as possible... =)
Why quickly as possible? Is your load analysis so dismal that
you cannot comfortably continue until fuel is exhausted?
Bob . . .
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Battery on its side? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chad Robinson <crobinson@rfgonline.com>
KITFOXZ@aol.com wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: KITFOXZ@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 3/27/2004 5:09:29 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> crobinson@rfgonline.com writes:
>
> I can't seem to find many references to this, so I thought I'd ask here.
> Since
> it's sealed, can an RG battery be used on its side, or is it best to keep it
> upright? I have a perfect place to put it that has more horizontal than
> vertical room...
>
> Regards,
> Chad
> Hello Chad, The electrolyte will not leak out of a sealed lead acid battery
> (even if the seal is broken) because it is in suspension in a gauze type plate
> separator.
>
> John P. Marzluf
> Columbus, Ohio
> Kitfox Outback (out back in the garage)
Yes, but will it work as efficiently? In an RG battery, is there some air/gas
space at the top and if so, will placing the battery on its side flood an
unused portion with electrolyte while starving a side plate (now at the top)?
I'm getting some feedback that this is fine, but I'd love the scientific
answer just to be safe. Once I make this decision it will be difficult to go back.
Regards,
Chad
Message 10
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| Subject: | separate start battery |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Trampas" <tstern@nc.rr.com>
Well I could design one that has large current capabilities, of course it
would weigh more.
As far as what happens when power drops to 4 volts, consider that if you are
drawing 5 amps at 12volts then this is 60watts of power, thus you would need
to provide 60watts of power at 4 volts or 15Amps. The problem here is that
if your circuit is drawing 5Amps at 12V you most likely did not wire plane
to handle 15Amps. Thus it is better to limit the device operation to 8V as
not to have excessive current draw on a circuit that was not designed for
it.
Regards,
Trampas
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Troy
Scott
Subject: AeroElectric-List: separate start battery
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Troy Scott"
<tscott1217@bellsouth.net>
Trampas,
What happens to the output when/if the output voltage drops to 4 volts?
The device you've described should probably be part of many devices. I'm
thinking specifically of the BMA EFIS One and the ElectroAir EI systems. At
any rate, For your product to have good value for me, it would need to be
bigger than two amps. I would need minimum of 5.1 amps to keep the EFIS One
and one Electroair EI unit running well during engine start. A second,
smaller unit could be used for the other EI on another bus, to avoid the
"all my eggs in one basket" problem. BTW, before I get lambasted :-), I
know that some protection may be built into these devices, but BMA has
published a "fix" that uses a diode-protected auxiliary battery. Jeff Rose
at Electroair told me he's had a few problems, but only when his product is
used with a PM starter and subjected to the reduced starting voltage.
Regards,
Troy
tscott1217@bellsouth.net
Time: 04:23:06 PM PST US
From: "Trampas" <tstern@nc.rr.com>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Separate start battery for Plasma II, Part
II
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Trampas" <tstern@nc.rr.com>
I am interested if anyone would want a device that could take 8-30Vdc input
and provide 12.0Vdc output filtered at about 2 Amps. I was just noting that
I have designed such a power supply for my engine monitor. That is I
designed my system to handle low voltage, noisy power and other problems.
However it seems that others have not, so I was wondering if it would be a
good idea to provide a small little device which filters and provides a nice
clean 12Vdc for other devices. By the way the weight for my power supply is
much less than the radio shack filters most people are using.
The product I am thinking of would be:
8v - 30V (3.2-1 Amp) input, yes 8V input produces 12V output
12V DC output @ 2 Amp filtered
Plus internal self resetting circuit breaker
Maybe optional low voltage and over current warning indicators?
Regards,
Trampas
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: LR3C-14 always flashes |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
> Can you give us voltage measurements taken from the power
> input pins while the bus voltage is normal? If the power
> input pins are all within a tenth or so volts of the bus,
> then the LR3 has some problem internally. How is the LR3
> grounded?
You bet...will take those readings today when I re-recheck all the wiring.
As per the instructions, pin 7 is grounded to the firewall forest of ground
tabs, and I went ahead and grounded the stud on the case all the way there
as well for redundancy...despite the instructions saying the case ground
wasn't required on an aluminum airframe installation.
Will be back in a bit with some more data...
Thanks,
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Help please - (possible) alt/battery troubles |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: mprather <mprather@spro.net>
Hi James,
What style of ammeter are you using? Do you have shunts in the b-leads to
the alternators. If so, I would guess that something about the wire run
between
the shunt and the ACS2002 was not quite right. My thinking is that
there might
be a ground loop in the connections of the ACS2002 and the shunts. Does
turning
the alternator off immediately run the ammeter reading to zero, or does
it take
time for it to bleed down? Still assuming shunts, you could probably
disconnect
the sense connections on the shunts. Then, with the engine running you
could use
your handy DVM to take readings with the alternator off and on.
Since your bus voltage remains stable, that suggests that the ammeter
readings
are bogus. If your alternator was really putting out as much juice as
the ammeter
indicates, your buss voltage would rise...
Regards,
Matt-
N34RD
James Redmon wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James Redmon" <james@berkut13.com>
>
>All,
>
>I'd like to report a very successful first engine run on Berkut #013 N97TX
>yesterday. All mechanical systems are working flawlessly.
>
>One problem that I can't really figure out that I would like to bounce off
>of the group. I have the Z-12 installation by the book, (1) 17ah RG
>battery, L-60 and L-20 B&C alts/regulators. It's in canard pusher
>configuration with the long runs only for the panel power, all
>charging/starting fat wires are in the aft compartment. I have the ACS2002
>(flat panel) engine monitor system installed.
>
>After the first couple of runs, I took the engine up to about 1800 RPM and
>did the primary/secondary alt checks with all selectable equipment turned
>off. When I flip the 60-amp alt on, the voltage pegs 13.6v - 13.8v, as it
>should, and is rock steady. However, the amp meter reads 5...then up to10
>slowly, then within the span of about two or three seconds continues to
>climb to 30...50...60...etc. So I shut it down at that point. Same thing
>happens when the secondary is engaged but to a lesser extent (smaller
>alternator). Voltage is constant through-out the tests when either
>alternator is engaged.
>
>No cables get hot, no current limiters blow....and through all the systems
>testing, not so much as a blown fuse to date. No electrical noise detected
>on tests either...alts on and off. Resistance from ground lead on battery
>to anywhere on engine block is .3 ohms. All wired with #4 and #2 cables on
>starter/charging/ground systems.
>
>Thoughts?
>
>Bad sensor, or sensor calibration? Bad battery? Where should I start
>looking?
>
>C'mon, you "been there, done that" guys....whatcha think?
>
>James Redmon
>Berkut #013 N97TX
>http://www.berkut13.com
>(pics and movies to be posted shortly)
>
>
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Battery on its side? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Robert McCallum <robert.mccallum2@sympatico.ca>
>>Hello Chad, The electrolyte will not leak out of a sealed lead acid battery
>>(even if the seal is broken) because it is in suspension in a gauze type plate
>>separator.
>>
>>John P. Marzluf
>>Columbus, Ohio
>>Kitfox Outback (out back in the garage)
>>
>>
>
>Yes, but will it work as efficiently? In an RG battery, is there some air/gas
>space at the top and if so, will placing the battery on its side flood an
>unused portion with electrolyte while starving a side plate (now at the top)?
>
>
The electrolyte in an RG battery is absorbed in glass mats between the
plates. There is no free electrolyte to run anywhere. It is permanently
trapped where the manufacturer placed it, with the exception of small
insignificant amounts which may be driven from the mats by certain
adverse conditions such as overcharging, in some brands. (see Bob's
reply earlier) You can completely cut away the entire case of an RG
battery and with the plates totally open and exposed it will operate
normally. (assuming you keep it physically together and don't let the
exposed parts short against anything.)
>I'm getting some feedback that this is fine, but I'd love the scientific
>answer just to be safe. Once I make this decision it will be difficult to go back.
>
>
Under normal operating conditions ANY position is fine with NO effect
whatsoever on function, efficiency or life.
>Regards,
>Chad
>
>
Bob McC
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Help please - (possible) alt/battery troubles |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James Redmon" <james@berkut13.com>
See below:
There are extensive pictures and text regarding my electrical system at
http://www.berkut13.com/berkut32.htm for those interested in helping.
> What style of ammeter are you using? Do you have shunts in the b-leads to
> the alternators. If so, I would guess that something about the wire run
> between
> the shunt and the ACS2002 was not quite right.
The ACS2002 http://www.advanced-control-systems.com/ uses a hall effect loop
sensor. It is positioned inbetween the B-lead current limiters and master
relay.
Specifically: L-60 B-lead to 60amp current limiter AND L-20 B-lead to
40-amp current limiter, terminate to the hot pole of the starter relay, that
is #2 wire connected to the switched side of the master relay (exactly as
depicted on Z-12 diagram). The sensor is located on the #2 wire between the
starter and master relays.
> My thinking is that
> there might
> be a ground loop in the connections of the ACS2002 and the shunts.
Possible, but unlikely as all sensor leads go back to the DPU of the
monitor...no common or engine grounds.
> Does
> turning
> the alternator off immediately run the ammeter reading to zero, or does
> it take
> time for it to bleed down?
Not sure what the response time of the sensor is, but the readings come down
as quickly as they went up after alternator shutdown. Voltage drop is
immediate.
>Still assuming shunts, you could probably
> disconnect
> the sense connections on the shunts. Then, with the engine running you
> could use
> your handy DVM to take readings with the alternator off and on.
No shunt.
> Since your bus voltage remains stable, that suggests that the ammeter
> readings
> are bogus. If your alternator was really putting out as much juice as
> the ammeter
> indicates, your buss voltage would rise...
Yes, I totally agree. But, of course, I still want to appeal to the higher
powers and far more capable individuals like yourself!! Thank you all for
the responses thus far, and forth coming.
In the by-the-way column...the one 17ah battery was pretty beat-up by the
multiple blade starts. It finally gave up and could no longer turn the
engine over after several starting attempts. I resorted to using a battery
charger/booster temporarily during the initial start sequences to get the
engine firing. Not sure if this is even relevant info, but I thought I
would throw it in.
Thanks!
James Redmon
Berkut #013 N97TX
http://www.berkut13.com
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: LR3C-14 always flashes |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
Bob,
I've got some measurements...at least some preliminary data. I ran through
B&C's troubleshooting guide for the LR3C-14, and I took some voltage
measurements, and here goes.
Actually, before I get into test results, I should describe how the system
is wired (more or less Figure Z-11):
- three bus system
- B&C L-40 alternator
- fusible link off main bus stud, wired to 5A "ALT FIELD" circuit breaker on
panel, wired to master/alt switch, wired to Pin 6.
- 2A fuse on main bus splits out (as per LR3C-14 installation instructions)
to both Pin 3 and the warning light, which goes to Pin 5.
Test results...first B&C's troubleshooting guide:
1. All switches OFF. Test for suitable ground point for tests.
Resistance from battery (-) to Pin 7: 0.3 ohms
Resistance from battery (-) to engine case: 0.4 ohms
(from here on, used battery (-) terminal as ground)
2. Battery master & alternator field switched ON.
Main bus voltage: 12.37v (battery had been on for a while)
Pin 3 voltage: 12.35v
(as per B&C should be within 0.2 of each other -- good)
3. Pin 6 voltage: 12.06v
(as per B&C should be within 0.5 volts of bus voltage -- good)
4. Pin 4 voltage: 10.81v
(as per B&C should be ~1.2v less than pin 6 -- good)
5. Field terminal voltage: 10.74v
(as per B&C should be within 0.5v of pin 4 -- good)
Switches OFF, Alternator field resistance: 0.001 ohms
6. Switches ON, alternator "B" lead: 12.37v
(as per B&C should be battery voltage -- good)
7. Check loose/broken alternator belt -- good.
Ok...now to some other measurements:
- Voltage drop from master bus stud to alternator field breaker (via
fuselink + wire): 0.117v
- Voltage drop across 5A alt field breaker: 0.120v
- Voltage drop across alternator field switch: 0.006v
NOTE: all of the above tests were performed with the engine stopped. The
only test I ran with the engine running was to confirm that the alternator
is operative -- main bus voltage rose from 13v to 14.2v when I switched the
alternator field on, and the battery voltage after shutdown had risen about
half a volt...so the alternator seems to be functioning and the battery is
getting charged.
This all seems normal to me. So I'm left with the assumption that the
LR3C-14 has an internal problem. Could just be a faulty low voltage warning
circuit? Could be something more sinister? Unless you guys come up with
other ideas, I'll call B&C in the morning.
Thanks,
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: LR3C-14 always flashes
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway"
<dan@rvproject.com>
>
> > Can you give us voltage measurements taken from the power
> > input pins while the bus voltage is normal? If the power
> > input pins are all within a tenth or so volts of the bus,
> > then the LR3 has some problem internally. How is the LR3
> > grounded?
>
> You bet...will take those readings today when I re-recheck all the wiring.
>
> As per the instructions, pin 7 is grounded to the firewall forest of
ground
> tabs, and I went ahead and grounded the stud on the case all the way there
> as well for redundancy...despite the instructions saying the case ground
> wasn't required on an aluminum airframe installation.
>
> Will be back in a bit with some more data...
>
> Thanks,
> )_( Dan
> RV-7 N714D
> http://www.rvproject.com
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: LR3C-14 always flashes |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: KITFOXZ@aol.com
Hello Dan,
I am wondering if it is as simple as the low voltage warning threshold point
is just set too high. Perhaps a disk pot on the board has gotten nudged out
of spec. If it were mine I would be tempted to substitute the battery with a
variable DC powers supply and run the voltage up a bit higher to see if the
light goes normal.
John P. Marzluf
Columbus, Ohio
Kitfox Outback (out back in the garage)
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Help please - (possible) alt/battery troubles |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James Redmon" <james@berkut13.com>
OK, problem solved. BAD BATTERY!! BAD!!
I took the Panasonic 17ah RG battery out, and temporarily hooked up a 26ah
battery - for the purpose of testing the bigger battery's ability to turn
the engine over. It did it without any fuss, and while the engine was
running, I went ahead and tried the alts. To my surprise...EVERYTHING
worked...I mean, exactly as anticipated. Voltage was slightly higher at
14.2 peak but steady, amps ran up to about 20 then backed down to 15, then
hovered around 8 with the primary alternator engaged!! I tested both
primary and secondary systems...both within perfect specs.
So, add me to the growing list of complaints against the battery
manufacturers quality control.
Further testing is required to fully determine if I need the additional
cranking power of a second 17ah battery. (no physical room for a single big
battery)
Thanks all! Dan, I hope that you come to a quick resolution for your issues
too!!
James Redmon
Berkut #013 N97TX
http://www.berkut13.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Redmon" <james@berkut13.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Help please - (possible) alt/battery troubles
> After the first couple of runs, I took the engine up to about 1800 RPM and
> did the primary/secondary alt checks with all selectable equipment turned
> off. When I flip the 60-amp alt on, the voltage pegs 13.6v - 13.8v, as
it
> should, and is rock steady. However, the amp meter reads 5...then up to10
> slowly, then within the span of about two or three seconds continues to
> climb to 30...50...60...etc. So I shut it down at that point. Same
thing
> happens when the secondary is engaged but to a lesser extent (smaller
> alternator). Voltage is constant through-out the tests when either
> alternator is engaged.
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Battery on its side? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
> > Regards,
> > Chad
> > Hello Chad, The electrolyte will not leak out of a sealed lead acid
> battery
> > (even if the seal is broken) because it is in suspension in a gauze
> type plate
> > separator.
> >
> > John P. Marzluf
> > Columbus, Ohio
> > Kitfox Outback (out back in the garage)
>
>Yes, but will it work as efficiently? In an RG battery, is there some air/gas
>space at the top and if so, will placing the battery on its side flood an
>unused portion with electrolyte while starving a side plate (now at the top)?
>
>I'm getting some feedback that this is fine, but I'd love the scientific
>answer just to be safe. Once I make this decision it will be difficult to
>go back.
check out details of RG battery construction on 'net. Electrolyte is
for the most part held in place between plates by capillary action/
surface tension of liquid by fine mesh Fiberglas separators. Many
portable equipment items are powered by sealed lead-acid batteries
and may be operated without regard to orientation. Gravity doesn't
affect performance.
Bob . . .
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: LR3C-14 always flashes |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 05:22 PM 3/28/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: KITFOXZ@aol.com
>
>Hello Dan,
>
>I am wondering if it is as simple as the low voltage warning threshold point
>is just set too high. Perhaps a disk pot on the board has gotten nudged out
>of spec. If it were mine I would be tempted to substitute the battery with a
>variable DC powers supply and run the voltage up a bit higher to see if the
>light goes normal.
>
>John P. Marzluf
>Columbus, Ohio
>Kitfox Outback (out back in the garage)
I believe the low volts set-point in this product is calibrated
with fixed resistors . . . no adjustment to get out of whack. However,
the regulator will function mostly normally even when the lv sense
lead is unhooked (a fail safe feature added some years ago). What's
the voltage on terminal 3 of the LR-3 with the engine running and
alternator turned on?
Bob . . .
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Battery contact screws |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 01:29 PM 3/26/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chad Robinson
><crobinson@rfgonline.com>
>
>Bob, you recommended 4 AWG for the cranking circuit. I'm seriously
>considering
>a front-battery setup in my pusher which makes for a lengthy run to the
>engine. Should I go with 2 AWG, or all the way down to 0? The batteries would
>be at around FS4 and the engine is at around FS140, and add a few feet to get
>from centerline to the electrical conduit, which is along the outside edge of
>the fuse.
>
>I seem to recall you having some rule of thumb for power dissipated by the
>wiring to the starter during cranking, but can't seem to find it.
If the battery, starter and alternator are all within a few feet of
each other, 4AWG will generally suffice for fat wires. If battery is
behind seats in a tractor or in the nose of a pusher, then 2AWG wires
are recommended for the fat wires that carry cranking currents . . .
I'd stay with 4AWG battery jumpers for ease of maintenance.
Bob . . .
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: LR3C-14 always flashes |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
> I believe the low volts set-point in this product is calibrated
> with fixed resistors . . . no adjustment to get out of whack. However,
> the regulator will function mostly normally even when the lv sense
> lead is unhooked (a fail safe feature added some years ago). What's
> the voltage on terminal 3 of the LR-3 with the engine running and
> alternator turned on?
I don't know that specific value, but last night when running the engine,
alternator on, main bus voltage was 14.2 volts...I have to assume that
terminal 3 would have the same voltage value -- or maybe 0.25 volts less due
to drops across the fuselink and circuit breaker in the circuit, so say 14
volts nominally?
If absolutely necessary to know that measurement, I guess I can hook it up
and try it. Have I mentioned how much I hate screws & ring terminals?! I
wish the LR3C-14 came with fast-on tabs! 8-)
Somebody posted a source a while ago for fast-on tab conversion tab thingies
for ring terminals...anybody remember that source?
Thanks,
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Separate start battery for Plasma II, Part |
II
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chad Robinson <crobinson@rfgonline.com>
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
> At 09:20 PM 3/27/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chad Robinson
>><crobinson@rfgonline.com>
>>
>>True enough. I started out by simply suggesting a smaller battery than the
>>original poster. It was Bob that suggested even a capacitor could do the
>>trick. If it can be sized properly, the capacitor is definitely the LIGHTEST
>>option. My real vote is for the diode to replace the switch, since I believe
>>it will produce a much more reliable (and lower pilot workload) solution.
>>
>>There is admittedly some advantage in having a battery since it would provide
>>some power redundancy to this critical device. But I prefer Bob's
>>dual-battery
>>or dual-alternator layouts for that, since if I have a power failure I
>>certainly care about more than just the ignition system. For example, I sort
>>of might like to still have one radio available while I am trying to land as
>>quickly as possible... =)
>
>
> Why quickly as possible? Is your load analysis so dismal that
> you cannot comfortably continue until fuel is exhausted?
I have this irritating curiosity thing and I'd want to know what's going on.
Can't change who you are. =) If I'm 150 miles from an ideal airport for some
reason I'm not going to put it down in a field, but if there's some place
convenient to land I don't see any reason to wait. I'm never in THAT much of a
rush, and I'll be carrying at least a basic set of tools to do some initial
diagnosis with.
-Chad
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Battery contact screws |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Schroeder <jschroeder@perigee.net>
> If the battery, starter and alternator are all within a few feet of
> each other, 4AWG will generally suffice for fat wires. If battery is
> behind seats in a tractor or in the nose of a pusher, then 2AWG wires
> are recommended for the fat wires that carry cranking currents . . .
> I'd stay with 4AWG battery jumpers for ease of maintenance.
>
> Bob . . .
Bob -
You have used this terminology before: "Battery jumpers...". I am still
confused about what you mean. In the context above, it would seem that the
wire from the battery to the contactor must be a #2 - if the wire from the
contactor to the starter is "carrying starter current". If the battery
provides the starting current, then there ought to be # 2 from the
battery, to the battery contactor-to the starter contactor-to the starter.
This is what we have on our Z-14 where the batteries/battery contactors
are about 11 feet from the firewall; where the starter contactor is
installed.
The only other lead from the batteries, in our case, is the one to the
battery bus itself. That is a # 10.
Does this make sense? Out of all these wires, what is the "battery jumper"?
Thanks for your help.
Sincerely,
John
Message 24
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| Subject: | Santa Maria CA Fly-In (April 30-May 2) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Cory Emberson" <bootless@earthlink.net>
Hello everyone!
With Matt Dralle's blessing (thank you, Matt!), I'm pleased to post this announcement
for a terrific aviation fly-in weekend. SMXgig (in Santa Maria, CA) has
become the year's largest face-to-face get-together of electronically networked
aviators. We hope you'll plan to attend because we expect this year's gig to
be the best ever.
People come from all over the country (and sometimes overseas) to attend, and most of the sessions qualify for FAA Wings cards. The dates are 4/30-5/2/04 (Friday-Sunday) - it's a lot of fun, and a great chance for pilots from all over to mingle and share aviation stories, ideas, etc. The announcement below contains most of the crucial information, and you can get the rest from the website (www.smxgig.org). If you have any questions at all, just let me know, and thanks!
~~Cory Emberson
KHWD
>>> NOTICE TO AIRMEN! <<<
Announcing the Sixteenth Annual SMXgig
to be held on April 30 - May 2, 2004
at the Radisson on the Santa Maria (CA) Airport (aka SMX)
www.smxgig.org
SMXgig will be April 30 - May 2, 2004, at the Santa Maria Radisson. This year,
our featured speaker after Friday night's dinner will be Rod Machado!
"MACH 2 WITH MACHADO" is the byline Rod Machado has earned for his rapid fire delivery
at his lively safety seminars and keynote speeches. His programs are information-packed,
energetic, and humorous. He has spoken in all fifty of the
United States and in Europe sharing his fresh approach to aviation education.
If you can make it, please do. It's going to be pretty special. More information and the announcement/ registration info is available at www.smxgig.org You may also contact me by email at: cory@smxgig.org.
All technical sessions will be held in the Enterprise Ballroom at the SMX Radisson.
Each session will last about an hour. We schedule four tech sessions on Saturday
morning, and four on Sunday morning. Most of the speakers are set (I'm
still firming up a couple of slots - I'm working on a session about Experimentals):
MIKE BUSCH - The Art and Science of Troubleshooting
Your A frequently, that person is you. That's particularly true of problems that
occur only in-flight and/or are intermittent. This session offers methodology
for troubleshooting aimed at aircraft owners who aren't A&Ps.
ED WILLIAMS - GPS - How It Works, and How to Work It
Ed is a nuclear physicist working at Lawrence Livermore Labs. Ed does a
remarkable job of making physics phun!
BRENT BLUE, M.D. - Pilot Medicals: How to Avoid Problems with the FAA
Brent is an AME Advocate, who specializes in helping the tough cases renew their
medicals. He's a former member of EAA's medical advisory committee.
DOUG RITTER - Equipping Yourself To Survive - Personal Survival Gear for Pilots
Doug is a survival evangelist, personally driven to help pilots live through whatever comes next. www.equipped.org
PAUL MILLNER - The Future of Avgas
Paul works with ChevronTexaco, and is right in the middle of the industry developments
regarding our fuel of choice.
MARY DUFFY & UWE LEMKE - Flying in Europe
Mary and Uwe are a Scot and a German who live in the San Francisco Bay Area, but
return "home" often.
As always, each qualifying session will get you a WINGS Safety Session card.
Our Saturday evening event should be a delicious one! At 5:45 p.m., the BFUB (Big Fat Ugly Bus) will arrive at the Santa Maria Radisson to bring us to the Far Western Tavern for dinner in beautiful Guadalupe (www.farwesterntavern.com).
DOLLARS AND CENTS
Just as in previous years, there will be one flat all-encompassing "gig" fee that
covers all events that involve significant out-of-pocket costs for the organizers.
The fee is $160 per person, and will cover:
- Friday afternoon welcome party
- Friday evening dinner banquet
- Saturday and Sunday tech sessions
- Saturday afternoon lunch
- Saturday evening dinner at the Far Western Tavern in Guadalupe
- Meeting rooms and coffee service at the Santa Maria Radisson
- Transportation to (and from) the Far Western Tavern
Lodging at the SMX Radisson will cost $89.00/night for either a single or double
room, which is far below the regular hotel room rate. Be sure you check in as
a SMXgig attendee and get the special rate. We have our definitive preference
listed with the hotel for rampside rooms - early registration can only help,
but of course, the rampside rooms are subject to availability depending on how
many existing guests are in those rooms.
You do not need to register with the hotel - just give me your preferences, and
I will take care of the reservations.
Important: This year, our final rooming lists are due to the hotel on April 11,
2004 (the even of Sun 'n Fun), which will guarantee space and the group rate.
The hotel will accept additional room reservations after that, on a space- and
rate-available basis. They will try their best to accommodate us after that
date, but the hotel is already sold out for the weekend.
The website (www.smxgig.org) has detailed information about the schedule, meals, hotel accommodations, and online registration. If you'd like your own announcement/registration emailed to you, or have any other questions, just let me know. (cory@smxgig.org or bootless@earthlink.net ).
Thanks, and see you there!
best, Cory Emberson
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: LR3C-14 always flashes |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 05:15 PM 3/28/2004 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
>
> > I believe the low volts set-point in this product is calibrated
> > with fixed resistors . . . no adjustment to get out of whack. However,
> > the regulator will function mostly normally even when the lv sense
> > lead is unhooked (a fail safe feature added some years ago). What's
> > the voltage on terminal 3 of the LR-3 with the engine running and
> > alternator turned on?
>
>I don't know that specific value, but last night when running the engine,
>alternator on, main bus voltage was 14.2 volts...I have to assume that
>terminal 3 would have the same voltage value -- or maybe 0.25 volts less due
>to drops across the fuselink and circuit breaker in the circuit, so say 14
>volts nominally?
>
>If absolutely necessary to know that measurement, I guess I can hook it up
>and try it. Have I mentioned how much I hate screws & ring terminals?! I
>wish the LR3C-14 came with fast-on tabs! 8-)
>
>Somebody posted a source a while ago for fast-on tab conversion tab thingies
>for ring terminals...anybody remember that source?
The low volts setpoint is 13.0 volts. If terminal 3 has any
significance in this situation, it will be because it's not
hooked up. This is the pin that supplies lv sensing while
power to run the regulator and lv monitor can come from
either power source. I don't have the schematic in front of
me but I memory serves me correctly, having pin 3 disconnected
will produce the symptoms you're seeing.
Bob . . .
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Battery contact screws |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chad Robinson <crobinson@rfgonline.com>
John Schroeder wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Schroeder <jschroeder@perigee.net>
>
>> If the battery, starter and alternator are all within a few feet of
>> each other, 4AWG will generally suffice for fat wires. If battery is
>> behind seats in a tractor or in the nose of a pusher, then 2AWG wires
>> are recommended for the fat wires that carry cranking currents . . .
>> I'd stay with 4AWG battery jumpers for ease of maintenance.
>>
>> Bob . . .
>
>
> Bob -
>
> You have used this terminology before: "Battery jumpers...". I am still
> confused about what you mean. In the context above, it would seem that the
> wire from the battery to the contactor must be a #2 - if the wire from the
> contactor to the starter is "carrying starter current". If the battery
> provides the starting current, then there ought to be # 2 from the
> battery, to the battery contactor-to the starter contactor-to the starter.
> This is what we have on our Z-14 where the batteries/battery contactors
> are about 11 feet from the firewall; where the starter contactor is
> installed.
>
> The only other lead from the batteries, in our case, is the one to the
> battery bus itself. That is a # 10.
>
> Does this make sense? Out of all these wires, what is the "battery jumper"?
I believe Bob means the cable from the battery to the contactor. Bob has
previously recommended taking the battery bus feed from the battery input side
of the battery contactor, rather than adding a second terminal to the battery
itself. Battery terminals are soft and can corrode and have other bad things
happen, and this way at maintenance time you're only removing/attaching a
single cable.
Current carrying capacity is only one factor in conductor sizing. A #6 cable
could carry this current. It's just that for a long run the resistance is such
that a lot of power would be dissipated in the cable itself, so there would be
a voltage drop that would affect starting performance. But for a 9" run from
the battery to a contactor a 4AWG wire is fine. This is only relevant for the
long run from instrument panel to firewall if I plan to put my batteries up
front (as I am seriously considering doing).
The difference between 4AWG and 2AWG is miniscule for a 9" run (0.000069
ohms), but more significant for the long run back to the engine (0.00097 ohms
for a 15 foot run), so Bob is recommmending that I make this longer piece out
of 2AWG. But since 4AWG is more flexible it makes a better battery jumper.
Both cables can carry the required current, so 4AWG throughout is fine if your
engine is only a foot away from your battery.
Regards,
Chad
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Help please - (possible) alt/battery troubles |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: mprather <mprather@spro.net>
Oh... When you initially had this problem, did the reading go
significantly above 60A
when running the main alternator? If not, then you just had a flat
battery. No big deal.
The battery might not even be bad, just discharged. Duh.. I wish I had
though of that.
The 14.2V reading makes sense... That's about as high as a good
regulator will push the
output voltage. A flat battery might drag the output down to 13.7V.
That the reading was observed to be climbing, instead of instantly going
to 60+A might
just be a time constant effect that the instrument has built in to make
cleaner looking
readings.
Thanks for sharing your troubleshooting process...
Regards,
Matt-
N34RD
James Redmon wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James Redmon" <james@berkut13.com>
>
>
>OK, problem solved. BAD BATTERY!! BAD!!
>
>I took the Panasonic 17ah RG battery out, and temporarily hooked up a 26ah
>battery - for the purpose of testing the bigger battery's ability to turn
>the engine over. It did it without any fuss, and while the engine was
>running, I went ahead and tried the alts. To my surprise...EVERYTHING
>worked...I mean, exactly as anticipated. Voltage was slightly higher at
>14.2 peak but steady, amps ran up to about 20 then backed down to 15, then
>hovered around 8 with the primary alternator engaged!! I tested both
>primary and secondary systems...both within perfect specs.
>
>So, add me to the growing list of complaints against the battery
>manufacturers quality control.
>
>Further testing is required to fully determine if I need the additional
>cranking power of a second 17ah battery. (no physical room for a single big
>battery)
>
>Thanks all! Dan, I hope that you come to a quick resolution for your issues
>too!!
>
>James Redmon
>Berkut #013 N97TX
>http://www.berkut13.com
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "James Redmon" <james@berkut13.com>
>To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Help please - (possible) alt/battery troubles
>
>
>
>
>>After the first couple of runs, I took the engine up to about 1800 RPM and
>>did the primary/secondary alt checks with all selectable equipment turned
>>off. When I flip the 60-amp alt on, the voltage pegs 13.6v - 13.8v, as
>>
>>
>it
>
>
>>should, and is rock steady. However, the amp meter reads 5...then up to10
>>slowly, then within the span of about two or three seconds continues to
>>climb to 30...50...60...etc. So I shut it down at that point. Same
>>
>>
>thing
>
>
>>happens when the secondary is engaged but to a lesser extent (smaller
>>alternator). Voltage is constant through-out the tests when either
>>alternator is engaged.
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: LR3C-14 always flashes |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
> The low volts setpoint is 13.0 volts. If terminal 3 has any
> significance in this situation, it will be because it's not
> hooked up. This is the pin that supplies lv sensing while
> power to run the regulator and lv monitor can come from
> either power source. I don't have the schematic in front of
> me but I memory serves me correctly, having pin 3 disconnected
> will produce the symptoms you're seeing.
Hm. Well, terminal 3 is definitely hooked up. I get within 0.02 volts of
main bus voltage on terminal 3. Looks good to me!
I'm stumped. Gonna call B&C in the morning! Thanks Bob and everybody who
gave me suggestions, I really appreciate it!
)_( Dan
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Help please - (possible) alt/battery troubles |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James Redmon" <james@berkut13.com>
Humm...well, this begs the question: Is the old 17ah battery bad, dead or
operating normally?
I was quick to dismiss the battery sucking down 65 amps (that was the peak
before I shut it down) in charge and low capacity to turn the engine over as
abnormal, and just labeled it- "BAD". Am I to infer from this that what the
battery did could be labeled as normal operation of a thrashed battery? I'd
like to learn more in this area if others would like to jump in.
The revised plan is to procure 1 new 17ah batt. Test the capacity of the
bat but simulating several multi-blade starts. If it performs well...I'll
stop here. If it does not, I will add another 17ah batt in parallel for
additional cranking power. (I do not have physical space for a single
larger battery - but do have space for another 17ah a foot away)
Listening with curious ears....
James Redmon
Berkut #013 N97TX
http://www.berkut13.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "mprather" <mprather@spro.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Help please - (possible) alt/battery
troubles
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: mprather <mprather@spro.net>
>
> Oh... When you initially had this problem, did the reading go
> significantly above 60A
> when running the main alternator? If not, then you just had a flat
> battery. No big deal.
> The battery might not even be bad, just discharged. Duh.. I wish I had
> though of that.
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