---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 04/01/04: 45 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:28 AM - Re: Dukes boost pump question (Greg Campbell) 2. 04:34 AM - Re: Fire Detector (Trampas) 3. 05:11 AM - getting started (Gary Casey) 4. 06:35 AM - Re: Dukes boost pump question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 06:36 AM - Re: Fire Detector (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 06:49 AM - Re: Inrush Current Limiter ?and/or? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 07:26 AM - Re: getting started (John Schroeder) 8. 07:38 AM - Re: Dukes boost pump question () 9. 07:56 AM - Re: Z-16 Proposed Rearrangement (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 08:12 AM - connecting two battery contactors (Jim Stone) 11. 08:17 AM - Re: Z-16 Proposed Rearrangement (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 12. 08:31 AM - Re: connecting two battery contactors (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 13. 08:43 AM - Oil Conducts? (BAKEROCB@aol.com) 14. 09:00 AM - Re: connecting two battery contactors (Terry Watson) 15. 09:02 AM - Bendix-King Connectors (Dave Durakovich) 16. 09:22 AM - Re: Oil Conducts? (Pebvjs@aol.com) 17. 10:08 AM - Re: Oil Conducts? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 18. 10:15 AM - Re: connecting two battery contactors (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 19. 10:49 AM - Breaker buss - K&S (Brett Ferrell) 20. 10:55 AM - Re: Bendix-King Connectors (Jeff Orear) 21. 11:07 AM - Re: Breaker buss - K&S (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 22. 02:02 PM - Re: Bendix-King Connectors (James Redmon) 23. 02:11 PM - Questions for Bob Nuckels (Eric M. Jones) 24. 02:38 PM - Re: connecting two battery contactors (LarryRobertHelming) 25. 02:49 PM - Re: Oil Conducts? (lm4@juno.com) 26. 03:34 PM - Re: connecting two battery contactors (Terry Watson) 27. 03:56 PM - Re: Questions for Bob Nuckels (Randy Pflanzer) 28. 04:34 PM - Re: Questions for Bob Nuckels (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 29. 04:40 PM - Re: connecting two battery contactors (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 30. 04:46 PM - Cabin Speaker (Jack Lockamy) 31. 04:51 PM - Re: Field alternator circuit breaker (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 32. 04:52 PM - Re: LOAD DUMP--- Protection design test (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 33. 05:16 PM - Re: Cabin Speaker (Matt Prather) 34. 05:54 PM - Re: Round connector with D-sub pins? (N1deltawhiskey@aol.com) 35. 06:51 PM - Re: connecting two battery contactors (Jim Stone) 36. 07:04 PM - Re: connecting two battery contactors (Jim Stone) 37. 07:18 PM - FADEC w/ Dual battery (Carl Morgan - ZK-VII) 38. 07:28 PM - Re: FADEC w/ Dual battery (David Schaefer) 39. 07:39 PM - Re: Dukes boost pump question (Scott, Ian) 40. 08:42 PM - Re: Fire Detector (Dave Morris) 41. 08:58 PM - How to calculate current draw on a AK-550-12 Booster (Jeffrey W. Skiba) 42. 10:20 PM - Re: How to calculate current draw on a AK-550-12 (Richard E. Tasker) 43. 11:23 PM - Bussmann fuseblock survey question (David Swartzendruber) 44. 11:31 PM - Official Usage Guideline [Please Read] [Monthly Posting] (Matt Dralle) 45. 11:46 PM - Re: Fire Detector (Gerry Holland) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:28:23 AM PST US From: "Greg Campbell" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Dukes boost pump question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Greg Campbell" A simple solution using two commonly available switches is: First Switch: SPDT for "Boost Select" (Low / High): Center or Common terminal of switch goes to the fuse for the pump. The "Low" and "High" wires from the Dukes pump go to opposite poles on the switch. Second Switch: SPST switch for "Fuel Boost " (On / Off): One terminal goes to the "common" wire from the Dukes, the other terminal goes to ground. Put the two switches next to each other - so you select: Low/High, Off/On. The nice part is you can follow the convention of: Down is OFF. A less conventional solution would be a 3 position ON-OFF-ON switch with down being LOW, center OFF, and up being HIGH. Wire this into the Low & High wires - same as above. Then take the "Common" wire from the pump and ground it. There is probably some way to wire up an S700-2-10 switch to do an: OFF-LOW-HIGH function. Any of these will effectively insure you don't apply power to both the Low & High wires at the same time. I too was curious about what would happen should this occur. But given the cost of a Dukes fuel pump, I wasn't inclined to experiment. It gets more complicated if you try to incorporate pair of joysticks, combined with a "stick disable", manual override, panel mount switch, etc.. I think I would like to try a latching relay so I could "pulse" the relay and toggle the state of the pump (ON/OFF) from any of three inputs. Any suggestions from the list on a latching relay would be appreciated. (The pump in question draws about 9 Amps on High.) Greg 88% Lancair ES San Francisco CA ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:34:17 AM PST US From: "Trampas" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Fire Detector --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Trampas" There are several types of pyrometer type sensors on the market, many are used for "fire fighting" robots. I would personally have two temperature sensors, one for the intake air and one for the exhaust air temperatures. This would give me a rough idea about not only if there was fire but also the cooling performance, when combined with CHT probes. Also depending what your environment is for the temperature probe you may just want to use a thermocouple, which are very accurate and can operate in extreme conditions. Regards, Trampas Stern Stern Technologies 4321 Waterwheel Dr Raleigh NC 27606 919-832-8441 Ext. 12 (voice) 919-832-8441 (fax) www.sterntech.com tstern@sterntech.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hal / Carol Kempthorne Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fire Detector --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Hal / Carol Kempthorne At 08:46 PM 3/31/2004, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Troy Scott" > > Problem is: I really don't know what the maximum acceptable >cowling exit air temperature should be for my Glasair Super II with a 180HP >Lycoming. I seek enlightenment. They make thermometers with remote probes. Experiment. Probably it is between 70F and 500F - Oven temps? K. H. (Hal) Kempthorne RV6-a N7HK - Three trips to OSH now. PRB (El Paso de Robles, CA) ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:11:38 AM PST US From: "Gary Casey" Subject: AeroElectric-List: getting started --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gary Casey" Well, after reading and studying all the excellent discussions on the "list" I'm fixin' to get ready to start. There are still a few questions that are unanswered, mostly to do with the mechanics of it all. Where do people put their fuse blocks - just stuffed behind the panel or in some really clever place? What kind of connectors are used? I'm thinking specifically of ones to go between control surfaces and the airframe - on my rudder there are position lights, a strobe light and rudder trim for a total of 10 wires. The removable wingtips also require connectors (the wing/fuselage joint will be hard-wired). Since these connections are "outside" in the weather I would like to use sealed connectors. For the bigger power wires DelphiPackard connectors are easy to get, but a little bulky. I don't have a solution for the smaller wires. Gary Casey Lancair ES ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:35:37 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Dukes boost pump question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" How about a 2-10 switch as illustrated in Figure At 03:27 AM 4/1/2004 -0800, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Greg Campbell" > > >A simple solution using two commonly available switches is: > > First Switch: SPDT for "Boost Select" (Low / High): > Center or Common terminal of switch goes to the fuse for the pump. > The "Low" and "High" wires from the Dukes pump go to opposite poles > on the switch. > > Second Switch: SPST switch for "Fuel Boost " (On / Off): > One terminal goes to the "common" wire from the Dukes, > the other terminal goes to ground. > >Put the two switches next to each other - so you select: Low/High, Off/On. >The nice part is you can follow the convention of: Down is OFF. > > >A less conventional solution would be a 3 position ON-OFF-ON switch >with down being LOW, center OFF, and up being HIGH. >Wire this into the Low & High wires - same as above. >Then take the "Common" wire from the pump and ground it. > > >There is probably some way to wire up an S700-2-10 switch to do an: >OFF-LOW-HIGH function. See figure 11-7 of the 'Connection and http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Carling_Micro/Carling_Micro.pdf >Any of these will effectively insure you don't apply power to both the Low >& High wires >at the same time. I too was curious about what would happen should this >occur. The motor runs in the fast mode >But given the cost of a Dukes fuel pump, I wasn't inclined to experiment. > > >It gets more complicated if you try to incorporate pair of joysticks, >combined with a "stick disable", manual override, panel mount switch, etc.. > >I think I would like to try a latching relay so I could "pulse" the relay >and toggle the state of the pump (ON/OFF) from any of three inputs. >Any suggestions from the list on a latching relay would be appreciated. > (The pump in question draws about 9 Amps on High.) I am mystified as to the value of adding any complexity. About 1/4th of the flights I've made in 23 years were in airplanes having two level boost pumps. I've never had an occasion to use/need the pump in flight. Should the need arise, I would expect necessary actions to take no more time nor have any greater effect on flight dynamics than running a tank dry and needing to move the fuel selector. I'd recommend the 2-10 wired for OFF-LOW-HIGH and keep it simple. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:36:32 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fire Detector --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 10:46 PM 3/31/2004 -0600, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Troy Scott" > > >Gentlemen, > >Since I posted the original message, I found these Cantherm Encapsulated >Thermostats for Electronics, (F11-E06). One example is Digikey part # >317-1023-ND. It closes at 90 degrees Celsius. Other part numbers represent >similar devices with different temperature ranges. This device looks to me >like it would operate my LED annunciator directly and survive life under the >cowling. Problem is: I really don't know what the maximum acceptable >cowling exit air temperature should be for my Glasair Super II with a 180HP >Lycoming. I seek enlightenment. You've got a 40-hour flyoff to do. Suggest you investigate these values and then enlighten us. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:49:17 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Inrush Current Limiter ?and/or? Keep-Warm Circuit --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 07:55 PM 3/31/2004 -0600, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Troy Scott" > > >Bob and all, > >WRT landing, taxi and position lights: Are the filament keep-warn circuit >and the inrush current limiters compatible? > Or are they mutually exclusive? >Will the fact that the filament is already warm adversely affect the ability >of the thermistor to protect the bulb? Or am I misunderstanding the >application completely....? Is the function of the inrush current limiter >just to protect the switch contacts? Or do they also protect (extend the >life of) the bulb(s)? I'd use automotive halogens and not worry about keep-warm. You can use inrush limiters but their value is more to reduce voltage perturbations on the bus and relieve switch stress than to 'protect' lamps. If you have a keep-warm system, inrush is automatically mitigated by having warm filaments and a separate limiter is not necessary. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------- ( Experience and common sense cannot be ) ( replaced with policy and procedures. ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ----------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:26:57 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: getting started From: John Schroeder --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Schroeder Gary - We are in the same boat re: our ES. Here are some of the ideas gleaned from various lists: 1. Use model airplane connectors (Deans P/N 1005) for the 5 wire things like trim actiators and stick connections. You could use some shrink wrap around the whole connector to keep most of the crud out. 2. Bob Nuckolls shows the use of the D-sub machined pins and recepticles, one for each wire, with shrink wrap to close off each wire and a larger piece to cover the staggered joints. 3. The small .062 Waldom/Molex like what is on your tail light could be sealed fairly well with a piece of shrink tubing. 4. Bob also has an article on his web site that shows how to modify a D-sub or mini d-sub for the trim wiring. He uses Shoo Goo to pot the terminals after soldering them, and uses a larger diameter piece of shrink tubing to seal it after it is connected. Getting fully water proof connectors would probably mean mil spec stuff and very expensive. Plus they tend to be bulky. I priced 3 prong CPC's and they are $35-$40 for each half of a connector. We are going to use the new Bussmann fuse blocks (Series 15710) that Dave Swartzendruber has on his web site. Check out his site and download the spec sheet: http://www.mihdirect.biz/ We mount two, side-by-side, on the lower right edge of the right panel. I have a preliminary plot on our panel in AutoCAD. They have covers, so they will come thru the panel and be accessible from the front. We are not sure about how to fasten them to the panel, but could use 4 countersunk screws per block and probably nuts on the back. Dave sells a complete kit with connectors and a removal tool. We are looking to get either two 20/4's or 20/8's. These incorporate separate feeds to each section. Thus, one could use the smaller section for an avionics buss if they really feel they need one. We will use 4 of the slots of the smaller bussess for FADEC power control. If you think this approach could work for you, let Dave ( "David Swartzendruber" )know because he has to order 24 of the blocks to get get us our two or three. We prefer the 20/4, but there is room for the 20/8's. Hope this helps John Schroeder Lancair ES ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:38:42 AM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Dukes boost pump question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: >>>Does anyone know what happens when both wires >>>(high and low boost) are hot? >>I too was curious about what would happen should this >>occur. >The motor runs in the fast mode. >I'd recommend the 2-10 wired for OFF-LOW-HIGH and keep it >simple. I would prefer a three way switch, but I bought all my engraved rockers from Lancair who for some reason stopped carrying the three way switches. The switches are bought, the panel is cut, and there's lots of room, so I may as well use both. If the answer is that having both on inadvertently simply means that the unit draws more current so as to make the motor run at the fast speed, then I guess Ill just wire both independently and be done with it. Any problem with this? Thanks for the help, Dan ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:56:56 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Z-16 Proposed Rearrangement --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 04:10 PM 3/31/2004 +1000, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst" > > >Bob, > >In relation to my original message below, you asked ...... What items >are powered from each bus? > >Not sure if you mean each bus as per original Z-16 or the busses I am >proposing so will list what I am proposing. > >MAIN BUS - normal feed as per Z-16 plus alternate feed thru proposed >multipole switch. >AH - electronic >Airmaster CS propeller >Auto Pilot >Engine Monitor >Fuel pump (Facet) - backs up mech pump >GPS >OV disconnect relay >Radio VHF >Starter contactor circuit >Strobe >Tacho >Transponder >Turn co-ordinator > >Correction to yesterday's posting ........... All items on the main bus >with the exception of OV disconnect relay, Starter Relay circuit and >Tacho will be able to be switched off. The value of the endurance bus is to mini >BATTERY BUS >MAC electric trim Don't understand the value of putting trim on the battery bus. >Cabin & Panel Flood lights >Aux Power Outlets - for tyre pump, decanting fuel pump, airbed pump etc. > >Bob, this was not a consideration when I thought of the idea as I have >only just this moment realised that as per standard Z-16, a battery >contactor failure (rare I know) would automatically put the alternator >off line. The switch I am proposing would allow alternator power to be >restored for this failure mode. Not a big deal I know but can't see why >this option would be a bad thing. > >Be gentle on me please....... promise not to laugh and thanks again for >your time. > >Kingsley > >******************************************************** >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of >Robert L. Nuckolls, III >To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-16 Proposed Rearrangement > > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > >At 04:20 PM 3/30/2004 +1000, you wrote: > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst" > > > > > >Bob et.al. > > > >I have a Rotax 912 and I thought (Z-16 as is) was ideal for my purpose > >until I did a load analysis which threw me into a quandary. > > > >I found that I was left with only two items on the Main Bus and > >everything else was on the Endurance Bus (nee Essential Bus) and it > >seemed to me to be a bit of a misnomer to call a bus the Main Bus with > >only two items on it. I also have an electric trim which ideally >should > >be fed directly from the battery. > > > >I am therefore contemplating changing the Endurance Bus to a Battery >Bus > >(for the trim + a couple of other items) to be connected as per Z-16 >but > >without the alternate feed switch and putting everything else on the > >Main Bus. To accommodate failure of the main contactor (ie to provide > >an alternate feed to the Main Bus), I am proposing a three or four >pole, > >double throw switch (30VDC 20A contacts) be connected between the > >battery side of the main contactor and the Main Bus ie in parallel with > >the main contactor using the normally open contacts of two or three > >poles of this switch for this purpose. The only problem I can see is > >that when this switch is turned on, there is now a current path > >available through it for the starter contactor. To prohibit this, I am > >proposing to put the normally closed side of one of the poles of the > >same switch in series with the Starter Switch circuit to the starter > >contactor. The diode between the Main Bus and the Endurance Bus on >Z-16 > >would no longer be necessary. > > > >Caveat - all items on the Main Bus will be controlled by their own > >on/off switches for load shedding purposes. > > > >My question:- Is this idea sound or is there something glaringly wrong > >with this proposition? > > > >Thank you in anticipation. > > > >Kingsley Hurst > >Europa Builder in Oz. > > What items are powered from each bus? > > Bob . . . > > >== >== >== >== > > Bob . . . ----------------------------------------- ( Experience and common sense cannot be ) ( replaced with policy and procedures. ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ----------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:12:52 AM PST US From: "Jim Stone" Subject: AeroElectric-List: connecting two battery contactors --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" Hi All, I have mounted my two battery contactors one right over the other and was wondering if I could use a bus bar to connect the output sides to each other rather than using a very short wire no longer than the two terminals end to end. I have a strip of copper that is .063 thick and 1/2" wide. Thanks, Jim ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:17:42 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Z-16 Proposed Rearrangement --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 04:10 PM 3/31/2004 +1000, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst" > > >Bob, > >In relation to my original message below, you asked ...... What items >are powered from each bus? > >Not sure if you mean each bus as per original Z-16 or the busses I am >proposing so will list what I am proposing. > >MAIN BUS - normal feed as per Z-16 plus alternate feed thru proposed >multipole switch. >AH - electronic >Airmaster CS propeller >Auto Pilot >Engine Monitor >Fuel pump (Facet) - backs up mech pump >GPS >OV disconnect relay >Radio VHF >Starter contactor circuit >Strobe >Tacho >Transponder >Turn co-ordinator > >Correction to yesterday's posting ........... All items on the main bus >with the exception of OV disconnect relay, Starter Relay circuit and >Tacho will be able to be switched off. The value of the endurance bus is to minimize en route loads until airport of destination is in sight. The list of goodies placed on this bus is generally very small . . . there are builders with E-bus loads of under 3 amps. Suppose you wire per Figure Z-16 and place only the GPS, comm radio, transponder, turn coordinator and minimal panel lighting on the e-bus, what scenario do you envision that could cause you to break a sweat should you find yourself sans alternator? >BATTERY BUS >MAC electric trim Don't understand the value of putting trim on the battery bus. >Cabin & Panel Flood lights >Aux Power Outlets - for tyre pump, decanting fuel pump, airbed pump etc. > >Bob, this was not a consideration when I thought of the idea as I have >only just this moment realised that as per standard Z-16, a battery >contactor failure (rare I know) would automatically put the alternator >off line. The switch I am proposing would allow alternator power to be >restored for this failure mode. Not a big deal I know but can't see why >this option would be a bad thing. Battery contactor failure is rare. Adding complexity (back-ups to back-ups) may increase probability of a problem. We're noodling through a system design now where I'm ask clarification of real value for dual position sensing potentiometers embraced as golden by traditionalist thinkers. This is in a fail-passive system where any fault simply results in system halt and lighting a warning light. I've demonstrated an ability to detect any faults in a single pot and that adding a second pot only increases probability of a pot failure by 2x while making no difference in the outcome of the failure since the system will simply halt in either case. Consider how the airplane will be used and do the mental exercise that deduces results of any/all failures. What specific failure is being considered? How will you KNOW that the failure has occurred. What workaround is practical to mitigate stresses against comfortable completion of flight. Last, is the failure pre-flight detectable . . . i.e. is it possible to take off unaware that the failure is already in place? You've suggested some added wires and switches to offset contactor failure. If Figure Z-16, e-bus loads as described above, and proposed missions for this airplane have some failure driven tension generators, let's identify those first. Perhaps your best solution is a manually operated battery switch . . . simpler electrically than the classic battery contactor and about as reliable in-flight as wing bolts. Many, many decisions are made to prop up concerns before details of the concerns are fully deduced and tested for validity. Before we throw more parts and pilot options into the system, let's see if they REALLY help. The elegant solution covers all concerns with a minimum of parts. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:31:18 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: connecting two battery contactors --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 11:12 AM 4/1/2004 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" > >Hi All, >I have mounted my two battery contactors one right over the other and was >wondering if I could use a bus bar to connect the output sides to each >other rather than using a very short wire no longer than the two terminals >end to end. I have a strip of copper that is .063 thick and 1/2" wide. That's done quite often. It will work fine. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:43:44 AM PST US From: BAKEROCB@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Oil Conducts? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BAKEROCB@aol.com 4/1/2004 Hello Electrical Gurus, First off this is no April Fool's joke. I am requesting your help for a friend. He has a Beech Sierra with a Lycoming IO-360 engine, two magnetos, impulse coupling on the left magneto. Recently it would not start. The (highly paid) mechanics fixed it by cleaning off some oil from the P lead connection area on the left magneto. The mechanics said the oil was shorting out / making connection to the P lead / shielding and thereby preventing the magneto spark from getting to the plugs. The engine is starting and running now, but I am having a difficult time believing this diagnosis and cure. Does it make sense to you? Can oil become so loaded with carbon or, heaven forbid, metal particles so that it can conduct enough electricity to short out a P lead to the surrounding shielding or nearby magneto frame? Oil is changed every 25 hours on this engine. Thanks for your help. 'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - 11/17/03 PS: I personally suspect some sort of intermittent malfunction in the key type ignition switch itself. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:00:22 AM PST US From: "Terry Watson" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: connecting two battery contactors --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" Jim, I did just that but I wasn't happy with how little of the 1/2" bus bar was left on each side of the hole when I was done to I put a piece of 1/2" dia. Copper pipe in a vise and flattened it and used that. I would think a 5/8" or so strip of .063 copper would be better, but I couldn't find any. Soft copper tubing might be better than the rigid copper pipe that I used. How about it, Bob? Terry RV-8A -> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" Hi All, I have mounted my two battery contactors one right over the other and was wondering if I could use a bus bar to connect the output sides to each other rather than using a very short wire no longer than the two terminals end to end. I have a strip of copper that is .063 thick and 1/2" wide. Thanks, Jim ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:02:54 AM PST US From: Dave Durakovich Subject: AeroElectric-List: Bendix-King Connectors --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dave Durakovich Anyone have a name/specification/source/??? for the edge card connectors/replacement contacts that BK uses on their various units? Connectors as used on the KMA-24, KN-75, etc. Any help would be appreciated. Dave Durakovich RV-4 in progress! --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:22:05 AM PST US From: Pebvjs@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Oil Conducts? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Pebvjs@aol.com The engine is starting and running now, but I am having a difficult time believing this diagnosis and cure. Does it make sense to you? Can oil become so loaded with carbon or, heaven forbid, metal particles so that it can conduct enough electricity to short out a P lead to the surrounding shielding or nearby magneto frame? 'OC' It happens a lot on automobiles with oily/greasy ignition wires, coils, distributor caps. At night or in a darkened garage it gives a pretty good fire works display. Ed. Sadler ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:08:35 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Oil Conducts? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 11:43 AM 4/1/2004 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BAKEROCB@aol.com > >4/1/2004 > >Hello Electrical Gurus, First off this is no April Fool's joke. I am >requesting your help for a friend. He has a Beech Sierra with a Lycoming >IO-360 >engine, two magnetos, impulse coupling on the left magneto. > >Recently it would not start. The (highly paid) mechanics fixed it by cleaning >off some oil from the P lead connection area on the left magneto. The >mechanics said the oil was shorting out / making connection to the P lead >/ shielding >and thereby preventing the magneto spark from getting to the plugs. > >The engine is starting and running now, but I am having a difficult time >believing this diagnosis and cure. Does it make sense to you? Can oil >become so >loaded with carbon or, heaven forbid, metal particles so that it can conduct >enough electricity to short out a P lead to the surrounding shielding or >nearby >magneto frame? Oil is changed every 25 hours on this engine. > >Thanks for your help. It's not so much the oil itself but things that the oil "glues" to the surface and moisture contained in those contaminants. Voltage at the p-lead is several hundred volts. Clean oil is a pretty fair insulator. Oil and moisture soaked dirt could be the source of leakage that can cripple a mag. >'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - 11/17/03 > >PS: I personally suspect some sort of intermittent malfunction in the key >type ignition switch itself. Certainly possible . . . Bob . . . ----------------------------------------- ( Experience and common sense cannot be ) ( replaced with policy and procedures. ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ----------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:15:30 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: connecting two battery contactors --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 08:59 AM 4/1/2004 -0800, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" > >Jim, > >I did just that but I wasn't happy with how little of the 1/2" bus bar was >left on each side of the hole when I was done to I put a piece of 1/2" dia. >Copper pipe in a vise and flattened it and used that. I would think a 5/8" >or so strip of .063 copper would be better, but I couldn't find any. Soft >copper tubing might be better than the rigid copper pipe that I used. > >How about it, Bob? Flattening a piece of tubing is very difficult to do and make a part you'd be proud of. Plumbing and/or roofing contractors may have scraps of copper sheet handy. Hobby shops stock copper sheet by K&S Engineering http://www.ksmetals.com/HobbyMerchandisers/structural_sheet.asp Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:49:51 AM PST US From: Brett Ferrell Subject: AeroElectric-List: Breaker buss - K&S --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brett Ferrell Bob, In the book you mention using copper or brass strips from K&S out of a hobby shop for the buss bar for Klixon style breakers. You say to use 1/2" strips, is that because of the holes to connect to breakers would leave too little conductor to use 1/4" strips (which seem to fit rather nicely)? Brett -- Visit us at www.velocityxl.com 44VF Velocity XL/FG I68 Cincinnati, OH ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:55:18 AM PST US From: "Jeff Orear" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Bendix-King Connectors --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jeff Orear" Dave: Try www.easternavionics.com They have a listing of all the trays/connector kits for just about anything. Regards, Jeff Orear RV6A panel Peshtigo, WI ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Durakovich" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Bendix-King Connectors > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dave Durakovich > > Anyone have a name/specification/source/??? for the edge card connectors/replacement contacts that BK uses on their various units? > > Connectors as used on the KMA-24, KN-75, etc. > > Any help would be appreciated. > > Dave Durakovich > RV-4 in progress! > > > --------------------------------- > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:07:41 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Breaker buss - K&S --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 10:49 AM 4/1/2004 -0800, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brett Ferrell > >Bob, > >In the book you mention using copper or brass strips from K&S out of a >hobby shop for the buss bar for Klixon style breakers. You say to use >1/2" strips, is that because of the holes to connect to breakers would >leave too little conductor to use 1/4" strips (which seem to fit rather >nicely)? It's structural and electrical. You want minimum cross-section of the bus to be equal to the current loads but more important, once you drill a .150" hole through a .250" strip, you don't have much material left on each side. I'd recommend 1/2" You could put a fold in the center to form the bus against the outside of the breaker and put the holes along one edge . . . If it were my airplane, I wouldn't bother to build bus bars opting instead for off-the-shelf busses in the form of fuseblocks. Getting rid of all those threaded fasteners in the system is a good thing to do. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 02:02:51 PM PST US From: "James Redmon" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Bendix-King Connectors --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James Redmon" Sure do. http://www.berkut13.com/extractor.htm Much cheaper than the "avionics shop" too. James Redmon Berkut #013 N97TX http://www.berkut13.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Durakovich" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Bendix-King Connectors > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dave Durakovich > > Anyone have a name/specification/source/??? for the edge card connectors/replacement contacts that BK uses on their various units? > > Connectors as used on the KMA-24, KN-75, etc. > > Any help would be appreciated. > > Dave Durakovich > RV-4 in progress! > > > --------------------------------- > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 02:11:20 PM PST US From: "Eric M. Jones" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Questions for Bob Nuckels --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" Dear Bob, 1) If Captain Piccard could shoot those Borgs with a Tommy gun, why weren't spears, arrows, or bullets the preferred weapons against the Borg's force fields? 2) Is the oatmeal box really necessary in the crystal set radio? What if they don't make the oatmeal anymore? Then what? 3) If AC electricity is stuff the power company keeps giving you a little and then taking back a little; why should we pay for it? We never get to keep any of it. 4) Since the speed of light is finite, why can't we see the light come on when we open the refrigerator door? 5) They say--"When one finds an elevated or deficient meridian on Ryoraku, the correct treatment approach is one of tonification or sedation, to specific acupuncture points known to replenish or deplete electronic bio-magnetic energy so as to create balance in the meridians. Precise electronic measurements are ascertained by examining the twenty-four specific Yuan points of the wrist and ankles for only three seconds per point." Bob, should I worry about this? 6) My friend John used to make lasers for destroying tanks, but now he designs medical instruments. He asked me where he buy a switch that turns the laser beam from "Tanks" to "Tumors"? 7) I've read all of IEC 60950, EN 60987, UL 19507/CSA C28.2 95650, IEEE456, AS/NZS 3260 and I still don't hardly understand none of it. Can you explain? 8) I just thought of something whilst cleaning my room. I wonder if you could power an arc welder backwards with high voltage? You could adjust it using the crank at the top to get the best spark. Would this work? What kind of power supply would you need? Someone please tell me if this is a good idea or if there is some obvious flaw here. 9) If you put a 9-volt battery and some pennies in your pocket. The pennies will wind up in your shoe and THEY WILL BE RED HOT. Can we make money with this? 10) If someone holds his finger out and says, "Smell this!", should you? Regards, Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge MA 01550-2705 Phone (508) 764-2072 Email: emjones@charter.net "Things possess an infinite quality when moving in a circle that they lack when moving in a straight line."--Galiani ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 02:38:53 PM PST US From: "LarryRobertHelming" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: connecting two battery contactors --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" Try this for the 1/2" copper bus bar. http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?ident=1080858073-312-687&browse=electrical&product=buss-bar $2.87 plus $4 handling plus UPS shipping. Larry in Indiana ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: connecting two battery contactors > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > At 08:59 AM 4/1/2004 -0800, you wrote: > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" > > > >Jim, > > > >I did just that but I wasn't happy with how little of the 1/2" bus bar was > >left on each side of the hole when I was done to I put a piece of 1/2" dia. > >Copper pipe in a vise and flattened it and used that. I would think a 5/8" > >or so strip of .063 copper would be better, but I couldn't find any. Soft > >copper tubing might be better than the rigid copper pipe that I used. > > > >How about it, Bob? > > Flattening a piece of tubing is very difficult to do and > make a part you'd be proud of. Plumbing and/or roofing > contractors may have scraps of copper sheet handy. Hobby > shops stock copper sheet by K&S Engineering > > http://www.ksmetals.com/HobbyMerchandisers/structural_sheet.asp > > Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 02:49:40 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Oil Conducts? From: lm4@juno.com --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: lm4@juno.com "OC", I'm not sure of the P-lead wiring but I am sure that oil is an insulator. Contaminants in oil can cause arcing but oil thats not very dirty will bleed into everything and cause a loss of connection. Could this be what's happening ? Larry Mac Donald Rochester N.Y. do not archive On Thu, 1 Apr 2004 11:43:08 EST BAKEROCB@aol.com writes: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BAKEROCB@aol.com > > 4/1/2004 > > Hello Electrical Gurus, First off this is no April Fool's joke. I am > > requesting your help for a friend. He has a Beech Sierra with a > Lycoming IO-360 > engine, two magnetos, impulse coupling on the left magneto. > > Recently it would not start. The (highly paid) mechanics fixed it by > cleaning > off some oil from the P lead connection area on the left magneto. > The > mechanics said the oil was shorting out / making connection to the P > lead / shielding > and thereby preventing the magneto spark from getting to the plugs. > > The engine is starting and running now, but I am having a difficult > time > believing this diagnosis and cure. Does it make sense to you? Can > oil become so > loaded with carbon or, heaven forbid, metal particles so that it can > conduct > enough electricity to short out a P lead to the surrounding > shielding or nearby > magneto frame? Oil is changed every 25 hours on this engine. > > Thanks for your help. > > 'OC' Baker, Builder of KIS TR-1 #116 4/14/97 - 11/17/03 > > PS: I personally suspect some sort of intermittent malfunction in > the key > type ignition switch itself. > > > = > = > = > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm > = > > > > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 03:34:04 PM PST US From: "Terry Watson" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: connecting two battery contactors --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" That's what I used. By the time you drill a hole big enough to put the stud on the contactor through, you have very little edge distance left. I would much rather have a part that didn't look so professional but was going to do the job than one that looked great but was going to cause me to worry about it breaking off, but that's apparently what Van's has in the RV-7 drawings. Here's a link to Dan Checkoway's excellent web site showing the drawings and the drilled bar. http://www.rvproject.com/20030518.html. Terry --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" Try this for the 1/2" copper bus bar. http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?ident=1080858073-312-687&bro wse=electrical&product=buss-bar $2.87 plus $4 handling plus UPS shipping. Larry in Indiana ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: connecting two battery contactors > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > At 08:59 AM 4/1/2004 -0800, you wrote: > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" > > > >Jim, > > > >I did just that but I wasn't happy with how little of the 1/2" bus bar was > >left on each side of the hole when I was done to I put a piece of 1/2" dia. > >Copper pipe in a vise and flattened it and used that. I would think a 5/8" > >or so strip of .063 copper would be better, but I couldn't find any. Soft > >copper tubing might be better than the rigid copper pipe that I used. > > > >How about it, Bob? > > Flattening a piece of tubing is very difficult to do and > make a part you'd be proud of. Plumbing and/or roofing > contractors may have scraps of copper sheet handy. Hobby > shops stock copper sheet by K&S Engineering > > http://www.ksmetals.com/HobbyMerchandisers/structural_sheet.asp > > Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 03:56:37 PM PST US From: "Randy Pflanzer" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Questions for Bob Nuckels --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Randy Pflanzer" Uh....I think Eric has been smelling too much smoke from his soldering iron again. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric M. Jones" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Questions for Bob Nuckels > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" > > Dear Bob, > > 1) If Captain Piccard could shoot those Borgs with a Tommy gun, why weren't > spears, arrows, or bullets the preferred weapons against the Borg's force > fields? > 2) Is the oatmeal box really necessary in the crystal set radio? What if > they don't make the oatmeal anymore? Then what? > 3) If AC electricity is stuff the power company keeps giving you a little > and then taking back a little; why should we pay for it? We never get to > keep any of it. > 4) Since the speed of light is finite, why can't we see the light come on > when we open the refrigerator door? > 5) They say--"When one finds an elevated or deficient meridian on Ryoraku, > the correct treatment approach is one of tonification or sedation, to > specific acupuncture points known to replenish or deplete electronic > bio-magnetic energy so as to create balance in the meridians. Precise > electronic measurements are ascertained by examining the twenty-four > specific Yuan points of the wrist and ankles for only three seconds per > point." Bob, should I worry about this? > 6) My friend John used to make lasers for destroying tanks, but now he > designs medical instruments. He asked me where he buy a switch that turns > the laser beam from "Tanks" to "Tumors"? > 7) I've read all of IEC 60950, EN 60987, UL 19507/CSA C28.2 95650, IEEE456, > AS/NZS 3260 and I still don't hardly understand none of it. Can you explain? > 8) I just thought of something whilst cleaning my room. I wonder if you > could power an arc welder backwards with high voltage? You could adjust it > using the crank at the top to get the best spark. Would this work? What kind > of power supply would you need? Someone please tell me if this is a good > idea or if there is some obvious flaw here. > 9) If you put a 9-volt battery and some pennies in your pocket. The pennies > will wind up in your shoe and THEY WILL BE RED HOT. Can we make money with > this? > 10) If someone holds his finger out and says, "Smell this!", should you? > > Regards, > Eric M. Jones > www.PerihelionDesign.com > 113 Brentwood Drive > Southbridge MA 01550-2705 > Phone (508) 764-2072 > Email: emjones@charter.net > > "Things possess an infinite quality when moving in a circle that they lack > when moving in a straight line."--Galiani > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 04:34:52 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Questions for Bob Nuckels --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 06:56 PM 4/1/2004 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Randy Pflanzer" > > >Uh....I think Eric has been smelling too much smoke from his soldering iron >again. Yeah, it may be that new "lead free" stuff ;-) Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 04:40:02 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: connecting two battery contactors --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 03:33 PM 4/1/2004 -0800, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" > >That's what I used. By the time you drill a hole big enough to put the stud >on the contactor through, you have very little edge distance left. I would >much rather have a part that didn't look so professional but was going to do >the job than one that looked great but was going to cause me to worry about >it breaking off, but that's apparently what Van's has in the RV-7 drawings. >Here's a link to Dan Checkoway's excellent web site showing the drawings and >the drilled bar. >http://www.rvproject.com/20030518.html. The 1/2" stuff is fine for breaker panels (not "switches" as described in Van's website). Contactors have 5/16" studs and I'd try to have at least 1/8" edge margin so the "bar" should be at least 9/16" wide. This is why cutting your own out of sheet stock is preferred. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 04:46:45 PM PST US From: "Jack Lockamy" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Cabin Speaker --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jack Lockamy" I have a FLITECOM 403mc Intercom that specifies a 4 Ohm speaker for the Cabin Speaker Function. All the 4 Ohm speakers I have found are large and HEAVY! I have an 8 Ohm computer speaker that is both small and light-weight, works, and sounds great. I connected it to the -403mc external speaker connector and it seems to work fine. Can I use this 8 Ohm speaker without damaging the intercom? Also, before anyone mentions that I won't be able to hear the speaker when the engine is running and/or in flight.... my purpose for the speaker is to monitor/get the ATIS prior to engine start. Thanks, Jack Lockamy Camarillo, CA RV-7A N174JL reserved ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 04:51:55 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Field alternator circuit breaker --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 11:21 AM 3/31/2004 -0800, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Karnes" > > > > 13.5 volts is a tad low. What kind of voltage regulator are you > > using? > >In retrospect, actual voltage is about 3.8 with the internal regulator. I presume you mean 13.8 . . . >Were you switching any other accessory(ies) when the trip > > occurred? > >Nope. > > > What has your voltage been running in recent flights before the > > trip? > >Voltage has not been a problem. The connection to the alternator was >loose, so I was losing voltage. Tightened the v-belt and the cable and >voltage has been about 3.8 to 4.0. I'll assume 13.8 to 14.0 . . . that's a useful operating range. Have you had any nuisance trips of the ov protection system in the past? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 04:52:49 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: LOAD DUMP--- Protection design test status --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 10:32 PM 3/30/2004 -0800, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Paul Messinger" > >This is just a update of progress so far in defining the characteristics of >the Alternator Load Dump and how to clamp it to prevent other system damage >from overvoltage during an Load Dump event (hopefully you will never have >one :-) ). >The test equipment is Calibrated Tektronics and results will include voltage >and current waveforms as well as other parameters and the specific test >setups. > >Paul Pleased your making progress. It's high on the list of things to do here also . . . but things keep getting shoved in above it! Bob . . . ----------------------------------------- ( Experience and common sense cannot be ) ( replaced with policy and procedures. ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ----------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 05:16:50 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Cabin Speaker From: "Matt Prather" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" Your 8ohm speaker will work fine for your application. A 4ohm speaker would be a little louder. Its almost always safe to substitute a higher impedance load in place of a lower impedance one. If you decide you want a 4ohm speaker at some point, try looking at some of the cheap automotive stereo speakers. Most are 4ohm, and the cheap ones are light weight. Regards, Matt- N34RD > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jack Lockamy" > > > I have a FLITECOM 403mc Intercom that specifies a 4 Ohm speaker for the > Cabin Speaker Function. All the 4 Ohm speakers I have found are large > and HEAVY! > > I have an 8 Ohm computer speaker that is both small and light-weight, > works, and sounds great. I connected it to the -403mc external speaker > connector and it seems to work fine. > > Can I use this 8 Ohm speaker without damaging the intercom? > > Also, before anyone mentions that I won't be able to hear the speaker > when the engine is running and/or in flight.... my purpose for the > speaker is to monitor/get the ATIS prior to engine start. > > Thanks, > > Jack Lockamy > Camarillo, CA > RV-7A N174JL reserved > > ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 05:54:39 PM PST US From: N1deltawhiskey@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Round connector with D-sub pins? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: N1deltawhiskey@aol.com Thanks to all. Found what I needed locally in an AMP circular flanged connector. Now I am wishing I used these for all of my connectors rather than the usual D-subs since they are bayonet locking rather than using the little metal screws to hold them together. Regards, Doug In a message dated 3/30/2004 7:53:38 PM Pacific Standard Time, bob.nuckolls@cox.net writes: > >Are you aware of a round connector that uses the same pins as the standard > >D-sub connector? If so, source? > > > >Can use a standard connector in my application, but round would be easier. > >Don't want to go the route of another pin type with new crimper. > > See the Series 2 Circular Plastic connectors on > http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T041/0222.pdf ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 06:51:43 PM PST US From: "Jim Stone" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: connecting two battery contactors --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" I guess it could be made of brass or copper. And you are right about the 1/2 inch width not leaving much meat on either side of the bolt. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: connecting two battery contactors > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > At 08:59 AM 4/1/2004 -0800, you wrote: > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" > > > >Jim, > > > >I did just that but I wasn't happy with how little of the 1/2" bus bar was > >left on each side of the hole when I was done to I put a piece of 1/2" dia. > >Copper pipe in a vise and flattened it and used that. I would think a 5/8" > >or so strip of .063 copper would be better, but I couldn't find any. Soft > >copper tubing might be better than the rigid copper pipe that I used. > > > >How about it, Bob? > > Flattening a piece of tubing is very difficult to do and > make a part you'd be proud of. Plumbing and/or roofing > contractors may have scraps of copper sheet handy. Hobby > shops stock copper sheet by K&S Engineering > > http://www.ksmetals.com/HobbyMerchandisers/structural_sheet.asp > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 07:04:40 PM PST US From: "Jim Stone" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: connecting two battery contactors --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" Thanks, that is the bar I have. Jim do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "LarryRobertHelming" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: connecting two battery contactors > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" > > Try this for the 1/2" copper bus bar. > > http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?ident=1080858073-312-687&bro wse=electrical&product=buss-bar > > $2.87 plus $4 handling plus UPS shipping. > > Larry in Indiana > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > To: > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: connecting two battery contactors > > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > > > > At 08:59 AM 4/1/2004 -0800, you wrote: > > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" > > > > > > >Jim, > > > > > >I did just that but I wasn't happy with how little of the 1/2" bus bar > was > > >left on each side of the hole when I was done to I put a piece of 1/2" > dia. > > >Copper pipe in a vise and flattened it and used that. I would think a > 5/8" > > >or so strip of .063 copper would be better, but I couldn't find any. Soft > > >copper tubing might be better than the rigid copper pipe that I used. > > > > > >How about it, Bob? > > > > Flattening a piece of tubing is very difficult to do and > > make a part you'd be proud of. Plumbing and/or roofing > > contractors may have scraps of copper sheet handy. Hobby > > shops stock copper sheet by K&S Engineering > > > > http://www.ksmetals.com/HobbyMerchandisers/structural_sheet.asp > > > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 07:18:05 PM PST US From: "Carl Morgan - ZK-VII" Subject: AeroElectric-List: FADEC w/ Dual battery --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Carl Morgan - ZK-VII" Hi, We are starting down the path of electrical design for a 7A. The basis is likely to be the Z-14, dual battery, dual Alternator design. We are also considering the FADEC option, this needs power to provide a spark (ie. it has no mechanical source for the spark). A couple of questions: a) Has this (FADEC configuration) already been done / peer reviewed? b) AeroSance recommend a dedicated battery directly connected to the ignition system, what are the general thoughts on this vs sharing a second battery with other critical items ie. EBUS / radio and AI. Thanks, Carl -- ZK-VII - RV 7A QB Cromwell, New Zealand ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 07:28:47 PM PST US From: "David Schaefer" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: FADEC w/ Dual battery --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Schaefer" I have said configuration on my 6A including FADEC. Email me directly and I'll direct you to some pictures etc. David RV6-A IOF-360 -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carl Morgan - ZK-VII Subject: AeroElectric-List: FADEC w/ Dual battery --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Carl Morgan - ZK-VII" Hi, We are starting down the path of electrical design for a 7A. The basis is likely to be the Z-14, dual battery, dual Alternator design. We are also considering the FADEC option, this needs power to provide a spark (ie. it has no mechanical source for the spark). A couple of questions: a) Has this (FADEC configuration) already been done / peer reviewed? b) AeroSance recommend a dedicated battery directly connected to the ignition system, what are the general thoughts on this vs sharing a second battery with other critical items ie. EBUS / radio and AI. Thanks, Carl -- ZK-VII - RV 7A QB Cromwell, New Zealand ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 07:39:29 PM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Dukes boost pump question From: "Scott, Ian" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Scott, Ian" HI Greg, from you email am I to infer that you are putting your boost pump switch on the control stick? Why? Ian -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Greg Campbell Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Dukes boost pump question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Greg Campbell" A simple solution using two commonly available switches is: First Switch: SPDT for "Boost Select" (Low / High): Center or Common terminal of switch goes to the fuse for the pump. The "Low" and "High" wires from the Dukes pump go to opposite poles on the switch. Second Switch: SPST switch for "Fuel Boost " (On / Off): One terminal goes to the "common" wire from the Dukes, the other terminal goes to ground. Put the two switches next to each other - so you select: Low/High, Off/On. The nice part is you can follow the convention of: Down is OFF. A less conventional solution would be a 3 position ON-OFF-ON switch with down being LOW, center OFF, and up being HIGH. Wire this into the Low & High wires - same as above. Then take the "Common" wire from the pump and ground it. There is probably some way to wire up an S700-2-10 switch to do an: OFF-LOW-HIGH function. Any of these will effectively insure you don't apply power to both the Low & High wires at the same time. I too was curious about what would happen should this occur. But given the cost of a Dukes fuel pump, I wasn't inclined to experiment. It gets more complicated if you try to incorporate pair of joysticks, combined with a "stick disable", manual override, panel mount switch, etc.. I think I would like to try a latching relay so I could "pulse" the relay and toggle the state of the pump (ON/OFF) from any of three inputs. Any suggestions from the list on a latching relay would be appreciated. (The pump in question draws about 9 Amps on High.) Greg 88% Lancair ES San Francisco CA ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 08:42:53 PM PST US From: Dave Morris Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fire Detector --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dave Morris There's always the low-tech method using a VW Beetle thermostat bellows to open a cowl flap when the temp reaches a certain level. I just bought 2 of the new-fangled versions of them and used a heat gun to see how it works. When it heats up, a little rod pushes out about an inch, which can be used (via a lever) to open a cowl flap. Not my usual microprocessor-controlled GPS-based high-tech, but cheap and effective. Dave Morris At 10:46 PM 3/31/2004, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Troy Scott" > > >Gentlemen, > >Since I posted the original message, I found these Cantherm Encapsulated >Thermostats for Electronics, (F11-E06). One example is Digikey part # >317-1023-ND. It closes at 90 degrees Celsius. Other part numbers represent >similar devices with different temperature ranges. This device looks to me >like it would operate my LED annunciator directly and survive life under the >cowling. Problem is: I really don't know what the maximum acceptable >cowling exit air temperature should be for my Glasair Super II with a 180HP >Lycoming. I seek enlightenment. > >Regards, >Troy Scott >tscott1217@bellsouth.net > > ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 08:58:05 PM PST US From: "Jeffrey W. Skiba" Subject: AeroElectric-List: How to calculate current draw on a AK-550-12 Booster --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jeffrey W. Skiba" Okay I was kind of hoping the manual for the AK-550-12 voltage booster would give me a better answer but no such luck. I am trying to calculate the current required for an Ameri-king AK-550-12 14volt to 28 volt booster. Aka if the booster is supplying a device running at 28 volts and drawing 5amps how much current will the booster require or draw ?? The manual states the following INPUT Voltage rated: 13.8vdc Current: @6 amps full load output 23.3 amps typical / 9 vdc input (for AK-550-6) @6 amps full load output 30.0 amps typical / 14 vdc input for AK-550-6) @12 amps full load output 46.6 amps typical / 9 vdc input for AK-550-12) @12 amps full load output 30.0 amps typical / 14 vdc input for AK-550-12) .11a typ. @ no load for -6 322a typ. @ no load for -12 Now How would one find out what the required input current is for each amp pulled from the booster??? Aka Supply booster with 14 volts booster is supplying a device running at 28vdc and draws 5 amps HOW many amps does the booster NEED??? I must be missing something right in front of my nose... It's late maybe I need sleep Thanks Jeff. ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 10:20:51 PM PST US From: "Richard E. Tasker" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: How to calculate current draw on a AK-550-12 Booster --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Richard E. Tasker" Well, you have typed some of the numbers wrong, but if we take the 12A output data we get an efficiency of approximately 80% for the supply. We will ignore the 6A data since it cannot be correct (it draws less current at a lower input voltage - impossible!) Using the 12 A data we get 336 W out (12A x 28V) with 420 W in (30A x 14V). Divide the output power by the input power and you get 0.8 - an efficiency of 80%. Therefore, for a 5A output @ 28V (140W) you would need to supply 12.5A @ 14V (175W) or 14A @ 12.5V. Or to answer your question of how many amps in per amp out, 2.5A @14V input or 2.8A @12.5V for each amp out @28V. Of course, the efficiency of the supply probably varies with the actual load, but since there is only one valid output current data point we cannot estimate that. However, this should be close enough to start. Dick Tasker Jeffrey W. Skiba wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jeffrey W. Skiba" > >Okay I was kind of hoping the manual for the AK-550-12 voltage booster would >give me a better answer but no such luck. > >I am trying to calculate the current required for an Ameri-king AK-550-12 >14volt to 28 volt booster. > >Aka if the booster is supplying a device running at 28 volts and drawing >5amps how much current will the booster require or draw ?? > >The manual states the following > >INPUT > >Voltage rated: 13.8vdc > > >Current: >@6 amps full load output 23.3 amps typical / 9 vdc input (for AK-550-6) > >@6 amps full load output 30.0 amps typical / 14 vdc input for AK-550-6) > >@12 amps full load output 46.6 amps typical / 9 vdc input for AK-550-12) > >@12 amps full load output 30.0 amps typical / 14 vdc input for AK-550-12) > > >.11a typ. @ no load for -6 > >322a typ. @ no load for -12 > > >Now How would one find out what the required input current is for each amp >pulled from the booster??? > >Aka > >Supply booster with 14 volts booster is supplying a device running at 28vdc >and draws 5 amps HOW many amps does the booster NEED??? > >I must be missing something right in front of my nose... > >It's late maybe I need sleep >Thanks >Jeff. > > > > ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 11:23:20 PM PST US From: "David Swartzendruber" (by way of Matt Dralle ) Subject: AeroElectric-List: Bussmann fuseblock survey question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Swartzendruber" (by way of Matt Dralle ) I tried sending out this survey question last night, but it doesn't seem to have come through so I'll try it again. As John mentions below in his message, he would like to use the new 15710 series fuseblock. The size he is interested in is a 24 position dual bus split 20/4. However, I have to order a minimum of 24 pieces to get this new size that I don't currently stock. John says he could also use a 28 position split 20/8 if that size would be useful to more people and increase my chances of selling all 24 pieces. So here's the survey question. Would you be more likely to use a 24 position dual bus fuseblock split 20/4 or a 28 position split 20/8? Your answer is not a commitment to buy anything. If you want your answer to count, please reply prompty as John needs me to get these on order without much delay. Thanks for your help. Dave Swartzendruber P.S. see www.mihdirect.biz for more info on the 15710 series fuseblock. > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Schroeder > > > Gary - > > We are in the same boat re: our ES. Here are some of the ideas gleaned > from various lists: > > > We are going to use the new Bussmann fuse blocks (Series 15710) that Dave > Swartzendruber has on his web site. Check out his site and download the > spec sheet: http://www.mihdirect.biz/ > > We mount two, side-by-side, on the lower right edge of the right panel. I > have a preliminary plot on our panel in AutoCAD. They have covers, so they > will come thru the panel and be accessible from the front. We are not sure > about how to fasten them to the panel, but could use 4 countersunk screws > per block and probably nuts on the back. Dave sells a complete kit with > connectors and a removal tool. We are looking to get either two 20/4's or > 20/8's. These incorporate separate feeds to each section. Thus, one could > use the smaller section for an avionics buss if they really feel they need > one. We will use 4 of the slots of the smaller bussess for FADEC power > control. > > If you think this approach could work for you, let Dave ( "David > Swartzendruber" )know because he has to > order 24 of the blocks to get us our two or three. We prefer the 20/4, > but there is room for the 20/8's. > > Hope this helps > > John Schroeder > Lancair ES > ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 11:31:10 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: AeroElectric-List: Official Usage Guideline [Please Read] [Monthly Posting] DNA: do not archive --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Matt Dralle Dear Lister, Please read over the AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete AeroElectric-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/AeroElectric-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the AeroElectric-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the AeroElectric-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. AeroElectric-List Policy Statement The purpose of the AeroElectric-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. 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This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. ------- [This is an automated posting.] ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 11:46:41 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fire Detector From: Gerry Holland --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gerry Holland Dave Hi! > > There's always the low-tech method using a VW Beetle thermostat bellows to > open a cowl flap when the temp reaches a certain level. I just bought 2 of > the new-fangled versions of them and used a heat gun to see how it > works. When it heats up, a little rod pushes out about an inch, which can > be used (via a lever) to open a cowl flap. Any Part No. or photo anywhere? > Not my usual microprocessor-controlled GPS-based high-tech, but cheap and > effective. All the better!!! Especially seeing how electrons are affecting Eric Jones..... Poor guy. Of course too many LED's can seriously damage your health too..... That's mental health. Keep taking the medicine Eric!!! Very funny though. Many Thanks Gerry Europa 384 G-FIZY Trigear with Rotax 912 and Arplast CS Prop. Fuselage being Painted, Wings ready to paint, Flying surfaces painted Airframe Wiring complete, Full Size Panel 60% done . Includes Dynon EFIS, KMD 150, Icom A-200 and SL70 Transponder. AoA Fitted. Activity on Panel, Designing Heater Unit, Shoulder Width Mod. http://www.g-fizy.com +44 7808 402404 gnholland@onetel.com Do not archive