Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:46 AM - "Pictorial Turn Indicator" (Fergus Kyle)
2. 07:05 AM - Backup devices - TC vs. attitude gyro (Glen Matejcek)
3. 07:20 AM - Re: "Pictorial Turn Indicator" (BobsV35B@aol.com)
4. 07:29 AM - Re: Backup devices - TC vs. attitude gyro (Dale Martin)
5. 07:31 AM - Re: T & B vs AI (flyv35b)
6. 07:31 AM - Re: Backup devices - TC vs. attitude gyro (BobsV35B@aol.com)
7. 09:03 AM - Re: Backup devices - TC vs. attitude gyro (Chad Robinson)
8. 10:39 AM - Re: "Pictorial Turn Indicator" (echristley@nc.rr.com)
9. 10:55 AM - Re: "Pictorial Turn Indicator" (Wallace Enga)
10. 11:02 AM - Re: "Pictorial Turn Indicator" (Terry Watson)
11. 12:34 PM - Re: Backup devices - TC vs. attitude gyro (Chad Robinson)
12. 01:17 PM - Copper Clad Aluminum etc. (Eric M. Jones)
13. 02:30 PM - Re: "Pictorial Turn Indicator" - Welcome to (Dave Morris)
14. 04:51 PM - SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 04/11/04 (Francis, David CMDR)
15. 04:52 PM - Re: Backup devices - TC vs. attitude gyro (Alex Peterson)
16. 06:29 PM - Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 04/11/04 (Cy Galley)
17. 08:37 PM - Roll your own crowbar OV module (Jane Ketter)
18. 08:48 PM - Magneto Filters (Don Boardman)
19. 09:09 PM - Re: Backup devices - TC vs. attitude gyro (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
20. 09:18 PM - Re: connectors on AML34 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
21. 09:54 PM - Re: Magneto Filters (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
22. 10:14 PM - Re: Voltmeter Scaling Module (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
23. 10:19 PM - Re: radio wiring (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
Message 1
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| Subject: | "Pictorial Turn Indicator" |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/index.html
"Pictorial Turn Coordinator
This display is like a horizon in roll and actually moves in unison with the
horizon. This makes the transition from viewing the horizon much easier than
the reverse display of a standard turn coordinator. For much greater life
and reliability it uses a solid state gyro instead of a spinning disc. "
A quick reading of the above, plus a picture of what seems to be a horizon
AND a ball at the bottom tells me it is not what we used to call an
Artificial Horizon. Pilots will be tempted to interpret it as just that and
not realise it's not showing pitch. So, - as a cloud guidance device - it
fails to provide 'unusual position' information when the aircraft is out of
control. That is, it masks the lack - and I wouldn't trust it. A Turn and
Bank gauge is far more useful in a pinch. Otherwise it's fine for those who
believe it's there to co-ordinate rate one turns a la airline.
IMHO of course. Old Bob?
Ferg
Message 2
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| Subject: | Backup devices - TC vs. attitude gyro |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Glen Matejcek" <aerobubba@earthlink.net>
Hi All-
I was trying to avoid this, but I can't resist any longer. If your not
interested in my ramblings on this subject, plz delete now.
While I agree with Bob that a T&B is really a superior instrument to a TC
(due to it's relative stability in turbulence), neither hold a candle to an
AH. While Lindberg's feat was truly remarkable, it was done with the
latest technology at the time and without ATC, radios, concerns over
traffic or obstacles, or trouble shooting electrical systems. As much as I
love radials and fabric, technology has advanced some since then.
Here's the big rub: When learning partial panel (PP), the instructor
typically covers up the AH and the student has to control the aircraft with
the supporting instruments. Not really a big deal, and kinda fun once they
get comfortable. As Bob mentioned, spin recoveries are doable and even
practiced in some curricula, at least before certain reg changes.
So far, so good. Now our intrepid aviator is out in some nice smooth
stratus, or over water in VMC but under an overcast. Not particularly
challenging at all. Now the AH croaks. Does it do something dramatic,
like flip over (TU) and lay there? Nope, it's much more subtle. It starts
to wind down. As it winds down, it becomes less stable and starts to
precess. I.E., it starts a slow wobble, kind of a slow, low amplitude lazy
eight looking manuever that gets more pronounced over the course of
minutes.
What happens? Since our intrepid aviator's scan centers on the AH, he
looks at it most frequently. He sees an entirely reasonable, slight
attitude error, say a slight climb in a right bank, which he corrects.
Hmm, the supporting instruments show a descending left turn now. If he
gets confused, he gets stressed. Tunnel vision. It gets worse. If he
focusses on the AH, or switches back and forth between the AH and
supporting instruments, Spatial Disorientation (SD) sets in and the radar
track shows a fairly short series of divergent left / right turns and
climbs / descents before the impact.
If our intrepid aviator has the discipline to ignore the AH, all is well.
The problem is that your scan is reflexive, as is the initial response to
what you see on the panel. In training you saw the cover the instructor
put ove the AH. In real life, you see an AH telling you to correct your
attitude, NOW. It can cause a very powerfull effect (you may wonder how I
know this...)
The cheapest aid and insurance to the PP pilot is some sort of suction cup
stickie thing, like your instructor used to cover the AH during your
training. Slapping it over the failed instrument is the simplest, surest
protection against succumbing to false cues.
Now you are PP in the clouds for real. Not the end of the world but a
significant increase in workload under IMC, unless of course you practice
regularly (yeah, right...). This higher workload, higher stress situation
will also increase the odds of SD, especially if it's bumpy. This is
somewhat less than ideal. A second attitude indicator in what would
normally be the T&B / TC hole would simplify this situation tremendously.
IIRC, a good electric AH goes for about $2,500 bucks. There are surely
less expensive gyros available, but if one were willing to part with $3,500
one could plug a BMA EFIS / Lite (or it's equivalent) into a somewhat
larger hole and have a whole suite of instruments in one box that would
require a very easy and compact scan.
While I appreciate that this is not the most inexpensive way to go, flying
IFR has never been cheap. Thanks to the recent advances in technology,
flying IFR has never been safer... If one avails themselves of that
technology AND practices.
BTW, recent statistics have shown that SD accidents have shifted away from
non-instrument rated private pilots and towards non-current instrument
commercial pilots. Food for thought for those with tickets but no
practice!
Just one guy's opinions
FWIW
YMMV
Nomex on
Duck, tuck and roll
gm
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: "Pictorial Turn Indicator" |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
In a message dated 4/12/04 8:48:23 AM Central Daylight Time, VE3LVO@rac.ca
writes:
A quick reading of the above, plus a picture of what seems to be a horizon
AND a ball at the bottom tells me it is not what we used to call an
Artificial Horizon. Pilots will be tempted to interpret it as just that and
not realise it's not showing pitch. So, - as a cloud guidance device - it
fails to provide 'unusual position' information when the aircraft is out of
control. That is, it masks the lack - and I wouldn't trust it. A Turn and
Bank gauge is far more useful in a pinch. Otherwise it's fine for those who
believe it's there to co-ordinate rate one turns a la airline.
IMHO of course. Old Bob?
Ferg
Good Morning Ferg,
My sentiments precisely.
I would like to know just what it does respond to. If it responds to both
roll and yaw, I guess making it look like a Turn Coordinator is the correct
thing to do. If it shows only yaw, (As does the Garmin 196 and 296, more later)
I
would love to see the presentation be an electronic needle!
I really don't like the idea of it looking like an attitude gyro at all. Too
much chance of a misinterpretation.
As an aside, the Garmin 196 and 296 have a nice standby panel available that
does work quite well. It can only discern a turn and, therefore, yaw, but they
have gone and used a picture of a Turn Coordinator to represent that yaw!
I believe that is a major mistake in the design. The unit would be much more
usable if the presentation was a needle rather than a little airplane signal.
It is giving us the information we need, but in the wrong format.
The best thing about a Turn Coordinator is that it does give an early
indication that a yaw may develop soon. It does that by showing the roll that,
in
most cases, precedes the yaw. That works very well for a sensor for a low cost
autopilot. Unfortunately, that mixed information is difficult for many of our
feeble brains to sort out.
The Garmin units show only yaw, but indicate the same as a TC.
Very Bad Idea.
Anybody know just what Jim's unit is really showing?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Airpark LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Backup devices - TC vs. attitude gyro |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dale Martin" <niceez@cableone.net>
Good response Glen,
Also the use of an auto pilot (like the new Trio) with it's own gyro might
be the best compromise yet....
my 2 cents,
-Dale
----- Original Message -----
From: "Glen Matejcek" <aerobubba@earthlink.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Backup devices - TC vs. attitude gyro
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Glen Matejcek"
<aerobubba@earthlink.net>
>
> Hi All-
>
> I was trying to avoid this, but I can't resist any longer. If your not
> interested in my ramblings on this subject, plz delete now.
>
> While I agree with Bob that a T&B is really a superior instrument to a TC
> (due to it's relative stability in turbulence), neither hold a candle to
an
> AH. While Lindberg's feat was truly remarkable, it was done with the
> latest technology at the time and without ATC, radios, concerns over
> traffic or obstacles, or trouble shooting electrical systems. As much as
I
> love radials and fabric, technology has advanced some since then.
>
> Here's the big rub: When learning partial panel (PP), the instructor
> typically covers up the AH and the student has to control the aircraft
with
> the supporting instruments. Not really a big deal, and kinda fun once
they
> get comfortable. As Bob mentioned, spin recoveries are doable and even
> practiced in some curricula, at least before certain reg changes.
>
> So far, so good. Now our intrepid aviator is out in some nice smooth
> stratus, or over water in VMC but under an overcast. Not particularly
> challenging at all. Now the AH croaks. Does it do something dramatic,
> like flip over (TU) and lay there? Nope, it's much more subtle. It
starts
> to wind down. As it winds down, it becomes less stable and starts to
> precess. I.E., it starts a slow wobble, kind of a slow, low amplitude
lazy
> eight looking manuever that gets more pronounced over the course of
> minutes.
>
> What happens? Since our intrepid aviator's scan centers on the AH, he
> looks at it most frequently. He sees an entirely reasonable, slight
> attitude error, say a slight climb in a right bank, which he corrects.
> Hmm, the supporting instruments show a descending left turn now. If he
> gets confused, he gets stressed. Tunnel vision. It gets worse. If he
> focusses on the AH, or switches back and forth between the AH and
> supporting instruments, Spatial Disorientation (SD) sets in and the radar
> track shows a fairly short series of divergent left / right turns and
> climbs / descents before the impact.
>
> If our intrepid aviator has the discipline to ignore the AH, all is well.
> The problem is that your scan is reflexive, as is the initial response to
> what you see on the panel. In training you saw the cover the instructor
> put ove the AH. In real life, you see an AH telling you to correct your
> attitude, NOW. It can cause a very powerfull effect (you may wonder how I
> know this...)
>
> The cheapest aid and insurance to the PP pilot is some sort of suction
cup
> stickie thing, like your instructor used to cover the AH during your
> training. Slapping it over the failed instrument is the simplest, surest
> protection against succumbing to false cues.
>
> Now you are PP in the clouds for real. Not the end of the world but a
> significant increase in workload under IMC, unless of course you practice
> regularly (yeah, right...). This higher workload, higher stress situation
> will also increase the odds of SD, especially if it's bumpy. This is
> somewhat less than ideal. A second attitude indicator in what would
> normally be the T&B / TC hole would simplify this situation tremendously.
>
> IIRC, a good electric AH goes for about $2,500 bucks. There are surely
> less expensive gyros available, but if one were willing to part with
$3,500
> one could plug a BMA EFIS / Lite (or it's equivalent) into a somewhat
> larger hole and have a whole suite of instruments in one box that would
> require a very easy and compact scan.
>
> While I appreciate that this is not the most inexpensive way to go, flying
> IFR has never been cheap. Thanks to the recent advances in technology,
> flying IFR has never been safer... If one avails themselves of that
> technology AND practices.
>
> BTW, recent statistics have shown that SD accidents have shifted away from
> non-instrument rated private pilots and towards non-current instrument
> commercial pilots. Food for thought for those with tickets but no
> practice!
>
> Just one guy's opinions
> FWIW
> YMMV
> Nomex on
> Duck, tuck and roll
>
> gm
>
>
Message 5
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "flyv35b" <flyv35b@ashcreekwireless.com>
I have the same instruments as you describe except that I have an all
electric S-Tec AP with it's TC in my V35B. But I recently just installed
the B&C 20 amp standby alternator system. So that provides all the system
redundancy that most light twins have, and more. In addition I am
contemplating a split emergency buss with an always hot feed wire off the
battery buss through a 15 amp fuse and an internal CB feeding the buss and
acting as the switch to energize it with the main buss turned off. The
E-Buss would be fed normal from the main through a 25 amp diode.
BTW, the B&C system is a beautiful one with a very complete kit and well
engineered. I was impressed with it and the installation details.
Cliff A&P/IA
----- Original Message -----
From: <jimk36@comcast.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: T & B vs AI
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <jimk36@comcast.net>
>
> Bob--
>
> Point well taken. In my C33A I have the vacuum driven AI, an electric
driven backup AI, and a vacuum T & B, all in close proximity on the primary
panel. In the all-electric plane I'm building [read that as trying to
build], I'll re-think the value of a backup electric AI.
>
> Jim
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Backup devices - TC vs. attitude gyro |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
In a message dated 4/12/04 9:06:21 AM Central Daylight Time,
aerobubba@earthlink.net writes:
Now you are PP in the clouds for real. Not the end of the world but a
significant increase in workload under IMC, unless of course you practice
regularly (yeah, right...). This higher workload, higher stress situation
will also increase the odds of SD, especially if it's bumpy. This is
somewhat less than ideal. A second attitude indicator in what would
normally be the T&B / TC hole would simplify this situation tremendously.
Good Morning gm,
I agree with everything you say right up to the conclusion you arrive at in
this paragraph!
I strongly agree that you absolutely have to cover up that failed attitude
gyro. However, I disagree on what the back up should be. You have just spotted
the failed attitude gyro by reference to the performance and rate
instruments. Wouldn't it be easiest to continue using those instruments to maintain
safe
flight?
If the T&B is included as a normal, everyday, part of the instrument scan,
the loss of the attitude indicator becomes nothing more than an inconvenience.
I have done it many times and I am no whiz bang aviator. Just had a lot of
experiences. Without covering the failed gyro, it can be almost an impossible
task, but once that gyro is covered, it is a piece of cake.
However, remember that I qualified this by saying that you really need to
include the rate instrument (whether it is a TC or T&B) in your everyday scan so
that you are comfortable in that mode when the attitude gyro does abandon you.
Changing to a different instrument scan is always difficult. Not impossible,
but difficult.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Airpark LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Backup devices - TC vs. attitude gyro |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chad Robinson <crobinson@rfgonline.com>
This has been an interesting discussion, and thanks to everybody who
responded. I also got several off-list responses. It seems there are 20
responses and 21 opinions, to quote an old joke.
I think in my particular case a 2-axis attitude gyro is still the best option,
despite the fact that it can tumble. The reason I want this device is not as a
backup to an existing steam or electric gyro. Instead, I want it as a backup
to a glass panel, which has a solid state gyro (I suppose I should have said
this originally - I meant to). That device is so accurate it's much more
likely to be correct or simply gone entirely - it would take a very extreme
situation to get it to "precess" the way a spinning mass could if it started
to fail. (It's not mechanical.)
So, the reason I want the backup instrument is to cover a case of the device
simply dying - say the display connector internally goes on the fritz, and the
screen goes dark? That sort of thing. This is the same answer the airlines
have used. The backup instrument to the glass cockpit display in an Airbus is
a traditional attitude indicator.
That said, I would agree that if a traditional electric or steam attitude
indicator was your primary source of information, a T&B would probably be a
better backup than a 2-axis gyro since it can't tumble.
Regards,
Chad
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: "Pictorial Turn Indicator" |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: echristley@nc.rr.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Fergus Kyle <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: "Pictorial Turn Indicator"
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Fergus
Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
>
> http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/index.html
>
> "Pictorial Turn Coordinator
> This display is like a horizon in roll and
actually moves in unison
> with the
> horizon. This makes the transition from viewing
the horizon much
> easier than
> the reverse display of a standard turn
coordinator. For much
> greater life
> and reliability it uses a solid state gyro instead
of a spinning
> disc. "
>
Wow, these people really like their instruments,
don't they? Are the devices that much more useful
than the devices that you can get for a few hundred
dollars, or is this another one of those instances
where an extra zero is added to the price because
someone said 'airplane'?
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: "Pictorial Turn Indicator" |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Wallace Enga <wenga@svtv.com>
Maybe a pilot who observes the "Pictorial Turn Indicator" perform in a
aircraft, and fails to realize it is not displaying Pitch information,
shouldn't
be flying IFR anyway :)
Wally Enga
RV7
At 09:44 AM 4/12/04 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
>
> Pilots will be tempted to interpret it as just that and
>not realise it's not showing pitch. So, - as a cloud guidance device - it
>fails to provide 'unusual position' information when the aircraft is out of
>control. That is, it masks the lack - and I wouldn't trust it. A Turn and
>Bank gauge is far more useful in a pinch. Otherwise it's fine for those who
>believe it's there to co-ordinate rate one turns a la airline.
>
>IMHO of course. Old Bob?
>Ferg
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | "Pictorial Turn Indicator" |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" <terry@tcwatson.com>
Not at all. I had a 2-1/4" turn and bank by Kelly Instruments on order for
nearly nine months at a price of $850. Virtually the day it arrived at the
dealer I ordered it from, the TruTrak Pictorial Turn Coordinator was
announced for $395. I decided to go with the TruTrak as a back-up to my
Blue Mountain EFIS/one instead of the turn and bank. It's lighter and should
be more reliable. Whether it is better or not is still the big question.
Terry
RV-8A wiring
Seattle
>
> "Pictorial Turn Coordinator
> This display is like a horizon in roll and
actually moves in unison
> with the
> horizon. This makes the transition from viewing
the horizon much
> easier than
> the reverse display of a standard turn
coordinator. For much
> greater life
> and reliability it uses a solid state gyro instead
of a spinning
> disc. "
>
Wow, these people really like their instruments,
don't they? Are the devices that much more useful
than the devices that you can get for a few hundred
dollars, or is this another one of those instances
where an extra zero is added to the price because
someone said 'airplane'?
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Backup devices - TC vs. attitude gyro |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chad Robinson <crobinson@rfgonline.com>
richardriley@adelphia.net wrote:
> I'm going through the same decision tree. I have the BlueMountain EFIS 1,
> a 2 1/4" electric AI, and a miniature turn and slip (electric).
>
> I'm figuring on putting the Blue Mountain on the E-bus, and leaving the
> mechanical ones off. I think the odds of having a major electrical failure
> AND having the Blue Mountain go down at the same time are minimal.
>
> Does that match your thinking?
Basically. I'm going to be starting out just doing day VFR so I'll just have
the glass panel and separate AI. I would add the T&B or TC if I wanted to do
IFR operations.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Copper Clad Aluminum etc. |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
The Super-2-CCA is finally for sale (3-4 weeks delivery), the new Website is
up, God is in Her heaven, the sheep are in the meadow and all is right with
the world.
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
Phone (508) 764-2072
Email: emjones@charter.net
Project Management "...of that date and that hour knoweth no man...."
--Mark 13:32
Message 13
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| Subject: | "Pictorial Turn Indicator" - Welcome to |
OZ
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dave Morris <dave@davemorris.com>
My guess is that about a half hour after flying with it, you will no longer
be expecting to see the horizon move up and down, and you'll integrate it
into your instrument scan just fine.
Now that we have cheap computers in the cockpit, there may be some HUGE
changes in instrumentation coming, which is about time. Most of the
instruments we use in aircraft are based on concepts from the 20's and
30's, and it's about time someone gave us a quantum leap forward. Say
goodbye to scanning 9 instruments to figure out what your airplane is
doing, and take a look at this:
Here is a new U.S. patent 6,486,799 that may revolutionize the whole cockpit:
<http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=6,486,799.WKU.&OS=PN/6,486,799&RS=PN/6,486,799>http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/\
netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=6,486,799.WKU.&OS=PN/6,486,799&RS=PN/6,486,\
799
Short synopsis here: http://www.coginst.uwf.edu/projects/oz/
And to find some screen shots, try this Google search:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=oz+human+centered+cockpit
Dave Morris
At 11:04 AM 4/12/2004 -0700, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" <terry@tcwatson.com>
>
>Not at all. I had a 2-1/4" turn and bank by Kelly Instruments on order for
>nearly nine months at a price of $850. Virtually the day it arrived at the
>dealer I ordered it from, the TruTrak Pictorial Turn Coordinator was
>announced for $395. I decided to go with the TruTrak as a back-up to my
>Blue Mountain EFIS/one instead of the turn and bank. It's lighter and should
>be more reliable. Whether it is better or not is still the big question.
>
>Terry
>RV-8A wiring
>Seattle
> >
> > "Pictorial Turn Coordinator
> > This display is like a horizon in roll and
>actually moves in unison
> > with the
> > horizon. This makes the transition from viewing
>the horizon much
> > easier than
> > the reverse display of a standard turn
>coordinator. For much
> > greater life
> > and reliability it uses a solid state gyro instead
>of a spinning
> > disc. "
> >
>
>Wow, these people really like their instruments,
>don't they? Are the devices that much more useful
>than the devices that you can get for a few hundred
>dollars, or is this another one of those instances
>where an extra zero is added to the price because
>someone said 'airplane'?
>
>
Dave Morris
Message 14
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| Subject: | SEC: UNCLASSIFIED RE: AeroElectric-List Digest: 7 Msgs |
- 04/11/04
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Francis, David CMDR" <David.Francis@defence.gov.au>
Chad,
The main difference between a TC and attitude gyro is not technical or cost,
its the skill required to stay safe.
A TC and turn and bank have no vertical guidance so the skill required to
stay upright is much higher than using a artificial horizon. Considering
that the average private pilot flies something like 50 hrs a year, mostly by
day, then low skills in limited panel flying is to be expected of most of
us.
So my IFR RV7 will have two attitude gyros. The price difference is small
for the reduced risk that I get in return.
Regards, David Francis, VH-ZEE, Canberra, Australia
>
> Is there any reason to choose a TC over an attitude gyro as a backup
device
> to, say, a glass panel display? OTHER than cost, which is obvious? I know
the
> TC is considered sufficient for IFR, and I know it's cheaper, but I was
> wondering if there might actually be a preference for it, rather than just
an
> option.
>
> Regards,
> Chad
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Backup devices - TC vs. attitude gyro |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson@earthlink.net>
Now the AH
> croaks.
> What happens? Since our intrepid aviator's scan centers on
> the AH, he looks at it most frequently. He sees an entirely
> reasonable, slight attitude error, say a slight climb in a
> right bank, which he corrects.
> Hmm, the supporting instruments show a descending left turn
> now. If he gets confused, he gets stressed. Tunnel vision.
> It gets worse. If he focusses on the AH, or switches back
> and forth between the AH and supporting instruments, Spatial
> Disorientation (SD) sets in and the radar track shows a
> fairly short series of divergent left / right turns and
> climbs / descents before the impact.
>
> If our intrepid aviator has the discipline to ignore the AH,
> all is well.
> The problem is that your scan is reflexive, as is the initial
> response to what you see on the panel. In training you saw
> the cover the instructor put ove the AH. In real life, you
> see an AH telling you to correct your attitude, NOW. It can
> cause a very powerfull effect (you may wonder how I know this...)
I believe it is necessary to install some sort of indicator to tell you
exactly when a gyro croaks. Mine are vacuum driven, and I have a red
warning light which illuminates whenever the suction is below about 4.5.
Gyro covers are always at hand, and I'm convinced they must be covered
in the event of a failure. My aircraft is uniquely equipped to be able
to shut off the vacuum to the AH or HSI independantly, and I can tell
you that the AH's death is slow, and would be very hard to detect, and
more importantly, to accept that it has failed. I'm no psychologist and
only an IFR student, but if one knows that an instrument failed before
it gives erroneous readings (the vacuum alarm in this example, I know
there are other failure modes), it can be covered and cause a minimum of
distraction. After all, every IFR pilot has demonstrated partial panel
flight and maneuvering. The trouble is the identification of the need
and transition to partial panel which gets people.
Alex Peterson
Maple Grove, MN
RV6-A N66AP 455 hours
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~alexpeterson/
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED RE: AeroElectric-List Digest: |
7 Msgs - 04/11/04
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
So how do you tell which attitude gyro is working?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Francis, David CMDR" <David.Francis@defence.gov.au>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED RE: AeroElectric-List Digest:
7 Msgs - 04/11/04
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Francis, David CMDR"
<David.Francis@defence.gov.au>
>
> Chad,
> The main difference between a TC and attitude gyro is not technical or
cost,
> its the skill required to stay safe.
>
> A TC and turn and bank have no vertical guidance so the skill required to
> stay upright is much higher than using a artificial horizon. Considering
> that the average private pilot flies something like 50 hrs a year, mostly
by
> day, then low skills in limited panel flying is to be expected of most of
> us.
>
> So my IFR RV7 will have two attitude gyros. The price difference is small
> for the reduced risk that I get in return.
>
> Regards, David Francis, VH-ZEE, Canberra, Australia
>
> >
> > Is there any reason to choose a TC over an attitude gyro as a backup
> device
> > to, say, a glass panel display? OTHER than cost, which is obvious? I
know
> the
> > TC is considered sufficient for IFR, and I know it's cheaper, but I was
> > wondering if there might actually be a preference for it, rather than
just
> an
> > option.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Chad
> >
> >
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Roll your own crowbar OV module |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jane Ketter <arizonahikers@juno.com>
I build my own OV crowbar module and it functions correctly except that
it operated in the 10-11 volt range. I triple checked the components and
wiring. I tested the 1N4742A diode and it regulates at 12V. I changed
the 1.62K ohm resistor specified for a 14 volt system to 6.04K and the
circuit operates in the correct voltage range of 15.5-17 volts. Has
anyone else found this?
Message 18
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Don Boardman <dboardm3@twcny.rr.com>
Hi All,
Had a visit today from the DAR that is going to do my inspection. In a
discussion about hooking up the P-leads he suggested installing magneto
filters. Chief aircraft has a couple at $34 and $45. They look to be
capacitors.
Good idea?
Thanks,
Don B.
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Backup devices - TC vs. attitude gyro |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 01:27 PM 4/10/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chad Robinson
><crobinson@rfgonline.com>
>
>Is there any reason to choose a TC over an attitude gyro as a backup device
>to, say, a glass panel display? OTHER than cost, which is obvious? I know the
>TC is considered sufficient for IFR, and I know it's cheaper, but I was
>wondering if there might actually be a preference for it, rather than just an
>option.
If the price of an attitude gyro isn't driving the decision, why
not have a second wing leveler with its own gyros (like TruTrak and
others) as the "backup" gyro? For my money, I'd install dual GPS
aided wing levelers with redundant power supplies and ditch all
the gyros. Cheaper and much more reliable than any scenario
that puts the pilot in the loop.
Bob . . .
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: connectors on AML34 |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 10:02 PM 4/8/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Troy Scott"
><tscott1217@bellsouth.net>
>
>Gentlemen,
>
>The red fast-on connectors from B&C seem to fit very well on the
>Honeywell/Micro Switch AML34 rocker switches, but they are really difficult
>to pull off once installed. Is this hardware meant to work together, or
>does it just happen to work?
Why would you want them to come off easy?
Bob . . .
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Magneto Filters |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 11:50 PM 4/12/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Don Boardman <dboardm3@twcny.rr.com>
>
>Hi All,
>
>Had a visit today from the DAR that is going to do my inspection. In a
>discussion about hooking up the P-leads he suggested installing magneto
>filters. Chief aircraft has a couple at $34 and $45. They look to be
>capacitors.
>
>Good idea?
Not if you don't need them.
Bob . . .
-----------------------------------------
( Experience and common sense cannot be )
( replaced with policy and procedures. )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
-----------------------------------------
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Voltmeter Scaling Module |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 12:41 PM 4/9/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rogers, Bob J." <BRogers@fdic.gov>
>
>This is a follow-up to an earlier question to and response from Bob Nuckolls
>regarding the Voltmeter/Loadmeter with a Voltmeter Scaling Module ("VSM"),
>which was at one time offered by the AeroElectric Connection (Catalog item
>VLM-14). The installation instructions at:
>http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9021/9021704F.pdf
><http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9021/9021704F.pdf>
>are color coded, and the instructions make it clear that the magenta portion
>of the instructions are not applicable to permanent magnet alternators
>(although I do not understand why).
The magenta text and figures refer to the field-voltage measurement
options which are part of the VLM-14 system. This feature works
ONLY with an externally regulated alternator that has a field
terminal brought out to the back of the alternator. This
connection is not present on internally regulated alternators
and PM alternators don't even have a field winding so the
feature is useless on these machines also.
>In our earlier exchange on this subject, Mr. Nuckolls said, "If it [the
>alternator] has an internal regulator, then the magenta wiring and magenta
>instructions are not applicable to your alternator. I took this comment to
>mean that any alternator with an internal regulator could not take advantage
>of the auto switching feature.
The auto switching feature has nothing to do with alternator style.
It takes care of switching the voltmeter function from main bus to
e-bus when the main bus is shut down. It works with any combination
of alternators.
> . . . . or the alternator press-to-test diagnostics
>feature of the VSM, without regard for whether the alternator was permanent
>magnet or otherwise.
Correct. The press to test diagnostic feature is applicable ONLY
to alternators with external regulators.
Bob . . .
Message 23
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 06:14 PM 4/8/2004 +0100, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Steve Sampson"
><SSampson.SLN21@london.edu>
>
>Bob - I dont know if it is just me but my copy of Adobe insists the file is
>damaged and cant open it....................... Steve.
Some browser/Acrobat interfaces are flaky if you simply left-click
a large .pdf link and wait for it to open in Acrobat. It almost
always works to right-click the link and tell your browser to
store the file onto your hard drive. After download is complete,
THEN use Acrobat to open the file.
Bob . . .
-----------------------------------------
( Experience and common sense cannot be )
( replaced with policy and procedures. )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
-----------------------------------------
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