Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:22 AM - Re: Ignitions/Starting (Scott Bilinski)
2. 06:33 AM - Re: Ignitions/Starting (David Swartzendruber)
3. 07:10 AM - Max load of a KLN-88 ? (Pascal Gosselin)
4. 07:46 AM - Airflow Performance HP Pump (Rod Smith)
5. 07:46 AM - Fuel Pump Optimization (was Ignitions/Starting) (Dan Checkoway)
6. 07:52 AM - Re: Fuel Pump Optimization (was Ignitions/Starting) (Dan Checkoway)
7. 08:22 AM - Re: Fuel Pump Optimization (was Ignitions/Starting) (Dan Checkoway)
8. 08:41 AM - Re: A panel full of displays . . . (Dale Martin)
9. 09:08 AM - Re: Fuel Pump Optimization (was (Scott Bilinski)
10. 09:38 AM - MOV? (Malcolm Thomson)
11. 11:27 AM - dielectric grease (Brett Hanley)
12. 12:10 PM - Re: MOV? (Chad Robinson)
13. 01:17 PM - Re: MOV? (John Schroeder)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Ignitions/Starting |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
I talked to Klaus a while back and if you dont spin the prop fast enough,
you are correct it will be more difficult to start.
At 09:57 PM 4/15/04 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Sam Hoskins" <shoskins@mchsi.com>
>
>Matt, I have been hand-propping this aircraft for 15 years, and probably
>have as many starts as hours. Probably 1,330+
>I have an MA3 carb, plus a primer to the intake spider manifold. Both seem
>to do the same. I start mine much like you do, however with the
>substitution of the Plasma III starting seems to have gotten harder. It
>doesn't like to make it over the compression stroke after I release the
>blade. I attribute that to the high compression pistons, but it has gotten
>worse with the LSE.
>
>Sam
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Matt
>Prather
>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Ignitions/Starting
>
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" <mprather@spro.net>
>
>Hi Sam,
>
>I have stock pistons in my O-200. It was pretty easy to start with 2
>mags, and
>somewhat easier to start with the swapout to an LSE and a mag. Mine is
>easier
>to start when its cold, but only because it is pretty easy to flood when
>hot.
>
>Does your carb have an accelerator pump or primer?
>
>The way I start mine when cold is to pump the throttle (not primer
>equipped) 2-3
>times. Then, with all of the switches off, pull 4 blades through. All
>switches on,
>and it ALMOST always starts on the first pull.
>
>When hot, the easiest starting is had by shutting down via the ignition
>switch, not
>the mixture control. When ready to go, switches on, and it usually starts
>again
>on the first pull. If I shut down via mixture and have to restart, I
>usually give it
>about a half pump on the throttle, switches hot, and then most of the time
>it runs
>on the 2nd pull.
>
>I am not sure what I would do different if I had hi compression pistons.
>I'll have
>to think about that. Does the engine fire once but not make it through to
>the next
>stroke? Or does it not spark at all? Do you have the prop 'clocked' to a
>position
>where you can get a good hard flip on it?
>
>Regards,
>
>Matt-
>N34RD
>
>> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Sam Hoskins"
>> <shoskins@mchsi.com>
>>
>> Matt,
>> You say you hand-prop your O-200. So do I, and I just installed a LSE
>> Plasma III. It seems to start hard when the engine is cold. I have
>> high compression pistons and it doesn't seem to go over the next
>> compression stroke very easily, unless I open the throttle wider than I
>> like to. It starts a lot easier if it's hot.
>> Have you had any experience like this? I thought starting was going to
>> be easier, but so far that's not the case.
>> Sam
>> Quickie Q-200 ~ 1,350 hrs.
>> http://home.mchsi.com/~shoskins/index.htm
>>
>
>
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
Message 2
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| Subject: | Ignitions/Starting |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber@earthlink.net>
Better yet, take Bob's fuel pump controller and set the fuel pressure
setpoint a little lower than what the engine driven pump normally
produces. You could leave the electric pump turned on all the time and
it would only run when needed. If the engine driven pump could not
produce enough pressure due to low engine rpm or failure, the electric
pump would automatically pick up the slack. An appropriate indicator
light could tell you when the electric pump was running.
Dave
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Terry Watson"
> <terry@tcwatson.com>
>
> I am quite sure I remember a few months ago we were talking on this
list
> about the idea that the Airflow Performance fuel pump is actually
usually
> just a back-up to the engine driven mechanical pump; that unless
something
> goes wrong with the engine driven pump, the Airflow Performance pump
is
> turned on during takeoff and landing only as a safety precaution in
case
> the
> mechanical pump fails during those critical times. I think Eric had
or
> offered to design a fuel pump switch that would only turn the boost
pump
> on
> if the fuel pressure dropped, or if the switch was put in the on
> regardless
> position. In other words, it would always be ready to turn on if
needed
> but
> would not normally be running during takeoff and landing unless the
pilot
> chose the override position.
>
> So, it would seem the best way to make the pump consume less power
would
> be
> to use a switch like Eric suggested, leaving the pump off unless it
was
> actually needed to create the needed fuel pressure. Do I remember this
> right?
>
> Terry
>
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway"
> <dan@rvproject.com>
>
> > > > Now if you happen to have a trick to make my Airflow Performance
> > > > high-pressure fuel pump consume less power, I'm all ears!! 8-)
> >
Message 3
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| Subject: | Max load of a KLN-88 ? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Pascal Gosselin <pascal@aeroteknic.com>
Long story, but I'm looking for the max load (amps) for
a KLN-88 Loran.
Reply to list or privately to pascal@aeroteknic.com .
Thanks.
-Pascal
Message 4
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| Subject: | Airflow Performance HP Pump |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rod Smith" <rsmith@frontier.net>
I will be using this same pump in my installation Dan. What is the power
comsumption? You only use it for takeoff and landing dont you?
Thanks,
Rod Smith
> Now if you happen to have a trick to make my Airflow Performance
> high-pressure fuel pump consume less power, I'm all ears!! 8-)
>
> )_( Dan
> RV-7 N714D
> http://www.rvproject.com
Message 5
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| Subject: | Fuel Pump Optimization (was Ignitions/Starting) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
I also think there'd be value in encorporating a "manual override" mode,
where the operator can force the pump into continuous full duty. Maybe a
progressive xfer switch...up halfway is "AUTO" and up all the way is "ON".
)_( Dan
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber@earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Ignitions/Starting
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Swartzendruber"
<dswartzendruber@earthlink.net>
>
> Better yet, take Bob's fuel pump controller and set the fuel pressure
> setpoint a little lower than what the engine driven pump normally
> produces. You could leave the electric pump turned on all the time and
> it would only run when needed. If the engine driven pump could not
> produce enough pressure due to low engine rpm or failure, the electric
> pump would automatically pick up the slack. An appropriate indicator
> light could tell you when the electric pump was running.
>
> Dave
>
> >
> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Terry Watson"
> > <terry@tcwatson.com>
> >
> > I am quite sure I remember a few months ago we were talking on this
> list
> > about the idea that the Airflow Performance fuel pump is actually
> usually
> > just a back-up to the engine driven mechanical pump; that unless
> something
> > goes wrong with the engine driven pump, the Airflow Performance pump
> is
> > turned on during takeoff and landing only as a safety precaution in
> case
> > the
> > mechanical pump fails during those critical times. I think Eric had
> or
> > offered to design a fuel pump switch that would only turn the boost
> pump
> > on
> > if the fuel pressure dropped, or if the switch was put in the on
> > regardless
> > position. In other words, it would always be ready to turn on if
> needed
> > but
> > would not normally be running during takeoff and landing unless the
> pilot
> > chose the override position.
> >
> > So, it would seem the best way to make the pump consume less power
> would
> > be
> > to use a switch like Eric suggested, leaving the pump off unless it
> was
> > actually needed to create the needed fuel pressure. Do I remember this
> > right?
> >
> > Terry
> >
> >
> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway"
> > <dan@rvproject.com>
> >
> > > > > Now if you happen to have a trick to make my Airflow Performance
> > > > > high-pressure fuel pump consume less power, I'm all ears!! 8-)
> > >
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Pump Optimization (was Ignitions/Starting) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
Oh yeah, forgot...and a warning light circuit, so you could have a lamp on
the panel illuminate whenever the system is in AUTO mode and the pump is
operating. It would essentially be a "your mechanical fuel pump is failing"
dummy light. Otherwise you might not tune into the situation, since your
indicated fuel pressure probably wouldn't really dip if the electric pump
"saved it."
)_( Dan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
Subject: Fuel Pump Optimization (was Ignitions/Starting)
> I also think there'd be value in encorporating a "manual override" mode,
> where the operator can force the pump into continuous full duty. Maybe a
> progressive xfer switch...up halfway is "AUTO" and up all the way is "ON".
>
> )_( Dan
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Swartzendruber" <dswartzendruber@earthlink.net>
> To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Friday, April 16, 2004 6:33 AM
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Ignitions/Starting
>
>
> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Swartzendruber"
> <dswartzendruber@earthlink.net>
> >
> > Better yet, take Bob's fuel pump controller and set the fuel pressure
> > setpoint a little lower than what the engine driven pump normally
> > produces. You could leave the electric pump turned on all the time and
> > it would only run when needed. If the engine driven pump could not
> > produce enough pressure due to low engine rpm or failure, the electric
> > pump would automatically pick up the slack. An appropriate indicator
> > light could tell you when the electric pump was running.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> > >
> > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Terry Watson"
> > > <terry@tcwatson.com>
> > >
> > > I am quite sure I remember a few months ago we were talking on this
> > list
> > > about the idea that the Airflow Performance fuel pump is actually
> > usually
> > > just a back-up to the engine driven mechanical pump; that unless
> > something
> > > goes wrong with the engine driven pump, the Airflow Performance pump
> > is
> > > turned on during takeoff and landing only as a safety precaution in
> > case
> > > the
> > > mechanical pump fails during those critical times. I think Eric had
> > or
> > > offered to design a fuel pump switch that would only turn the boost
> > pump
> > > on
> > > if the fuel pressure dropped, or if the switch was put in the on
> > > regardless
> > > position. In other words, it would always be ready to turn on if
> > needed
> > > but
> > > would not normally be running during takeoff and landing unless the
> > pilot
> > > chose the override position.
> > >
> > > So, it would seem the best way to make the pump consume less power
> > would
> > > be
> > > to use a switch like Eric suggested, leaving the pump off unless it
> > was
> > > actually needed to create the needed fuel pressure. Do I remember this
> > > right?
> > >
> > > Terry
> > >
> > >
> > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway"
> > > <dan@rvproject.com>
> > >
> > > > > > Now if you happen to have a trick to make my Airflow Performance
> > > > > > high-pressure fuel pump consume less power, I'm all ears!! 8-)
> > > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Pump Optimization (was Ignitions/Starting) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
> I will be using this same pump in my installation Dan. What is the power
> comsumption? You only use it for takeoff and landing dont you?
Yeah, just t/o, ldg, and switching tanks (low wing). It's supposed to draw
5A at 12V (I read that somewhere), but it seems to draw at least that much.
I can try to nail down a more exact figure later today.
I'm basing this on the observed rise in the amps reading on my ACS2002,
which derives the amps/load from the hall effect sensor around the wire
running from my alternator to the battery (technically to the starter
contactor, but you know what I mean).
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: A panel full of displays . . . |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dale Martin" <niceez@cableone.net>
For the record - the single battery, single alternator, single E.I. system
with all electric is not a gamble. On that sad day when the alternator
freaks out I have the battery and one ignition that's "keeps on going," so I
still make it to a facility for a repair. In case of a battery failure same
scenario but the alternator supplies power and I make it to tera firma in
great shape. BTW, two E.I.'s is not the most economic or lightest and it
darn sure is not the best performance.
In the case of a total electrical system failure the mag is still keeping
the airplane moving to an airport and we are fine. After 17 years of flying
this IFR capable "air-chine" and the last nine years with one E.I. I really
don't get the fear.
If your talking hard IFR and pretty sure your not, the systems I see in many
of these new airplanes is a waste.
This is the opinion of many of "People who are flying experimentals" and not
building. Bob has designed some pretty great systems and taking advantage
of his skillful designs would make anyone very safe. The big difference in
my focus and Bob K's is that he wants to make the intended destination.
Myself I want to just back on the ground and not need to change my drawers
;-))
Dale Martin
Lewiston, ID
LEZ-235
----- Original Message -----
From: <czechsix@juno.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: A panel full of displays . . .
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: czechsix@juno.com
>
>
> Hi Dale,
>
> To answer your question, very few of us have had battery failure. It's
pretty rare, and many people may be comfortable with a single battery in an
all-electric airplane (i.e. dual elec. ignition and IFR panel with no
vacuum). Personally, I'm NOT comfortable with having all that at stake in a
single battery. There have been a few battery failures reported here on
this List over the past few years I've followed it, and several people I've
talked to have had it happen in cars. I'm talking catastrauphic failure,
where the lead or post breaks off, or something happens to the battery
itself rendering the whole electrical system dead. I know, I know...they
were probably poorly designed installations and/or poorly maintained, and if
you have a well-designed installation without stressing the battery
leads/terminals, with an RG battery rotated out every other year, the odds
of failure are probably reduced to very slim. But in my case I decided to
go with a small aux battery to k
> eep my second ignition alive in the ulikely event that it's needed. Each
person can decide for their airplane and mission what they're comfortable
with.
>
> --Mark Navratil
> Cedar Rapids, Iowa
> RV-8A N2D finishing...
>
> From: "Dale Martin" <niceez@cableone.net>
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: A panel full of displays . . .
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dale Martin"
<niceez@cableone.net>
>
> With all due respect...... how many of us have a had a battery failure?
I
> cannot believe that some of you intend medium to hard IFR with some of our
> homebuilts. First consider empennage, wing and prop anti icing equipment
> first.... Then I'll believe you need all the rest of the equipment.
>
> One battery will due if it is the proper quality.....
>
> Just my opinion,
>
> Dale Martin
> Lewiston, ID
> LEZ-235
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Pump Optimization (was |
Ignitions/Starting)
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
Dan if your at Boreggo this Sat we can compare amp draw. I plan to get
there at noon. Other wise I will make it a point to write down how much I
am pulling. Have you called AFP?
At 08:20 AM 4/16/04 -0700, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
>
>> I will be using this same pump in my installation Dan. What is the power
>> comsumption? You only use it for takeoff and landing dont you?
>
>Yeah, just t/o, ldg, and switching tanks (low wing). It's supposed to draw
>5A at 12V (I read that somewhere), but it seems to draw at least that much.
>I can try to nail down a more exact figure later today.
>
>I'm basing this on the observed rise in the amps reading on my ACS2002,
>which derives the amps/load from the hall effect sensor around the wire
>running from my alternator to the battery (technically to the starter
>contactor, but you know what I mean).
>
>)_( Dan
>RV-7 N714D
>http://www.rvproject.com
>
>
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
Message 10
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Malcolm Thomson" <mdthomson@attglobal.net>
What are the MOV's referred to in the LA1VP WireBook example. I am
starting to use this wirebook as a starting point for my Thunder
Mustang. I noticed some contactors have MOV's on them but most have
nothing across the coil of the contactor. What happened to using the
small diodes across the coil as shown in most of the "Z" drawings?
Also, where is there information on the "transient suppressor" shown in
the LA1VP wirebook.
Thanks.
Message 11
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| Subject: | dielectric grease |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brett Hanley <bretttdc@yahoo.com>
Bob,
Where is dielectric grease needed and where should it
be avoided?
I have read your book and CD, both are excellent.
Most likely the best specialty text I have ever seen.
I would advise anyone building a small aircraft for
the first time to read it no matter how advanced their
electrical skills are.
Brett
__________________________________
Message 12
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chad Robinson <crobinson@rfgonline.com>
Malcolm Thomson wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Malcolm Thomson" <mdthomson@attglobal.net>
>
> What are the MOV's referred to in the LA1VP WireBook example. I am
> starting to use this wirebook as a starting point for my Thunder
> Mustang. I noticed some contactors have MOV's on them but most have
> nothing across the coil of the contactor. What happened to using the
> small diodes across the coil as shown in most of the "Z" drawings?
>
> Also, where is there information on the "transient suppressor" shown in
> the LA1VP wirebook.
It's probably out of date. MOV stands for "Metal Oxide Varistor," and it's
basically a transient suppressor. There's a nice little graph of what a MOV
does here:
http://www.fujisemiconductor.com/test_web/mov/
Between certain limit voltages, it does nothing. If the voltage exceeds a
preset point (you buy the MOV rated for this voltage) it starts conducting,
basically shorting out the transient. They're often used in those cheap
6-outlet strips. They have their charms, but also some problems. Remember,
this sucker is shorting itself out - if your bus can supply the amps, it could
pass several hundred through the MOV. Toasty. That's why those 6-outlet
el-cheapo strips are a bad idea. Once a surge has been blocked, you commonly
lose your protection against future surges.
For a contactor the best option is the diode.
For real overvoltage protection, a crowbar device is faster and since they're
usually SCR-based they shouldn't destroy themselves protecting you (provided
they're being used as recommended, to blow a fuse or trip a breaker and shut
down the alternator, the primary source of overvoltage events). This page has
a nice summary of some of the benefits and drawbacks of various TVS devices:
http://www.okaya.com/FAQ3.html
Regards,
Chad
Message 13
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Schroeder <jschroeder@perigee.net>
Hi Malcolm -
Greg mentioned at Sun N Fun that you are starting to wire your airplane.
We are almost there and have used the L IV wirebook as a starter. As you
may recall, we are using Bob's Z14 system (dual alternators and dual
batteries). I added a ground power module to that and a couple of other
small changes.
I asked Bob some time ago about the MOV's and he said that they are no
longer used in any of his recommended systems. Diodes are used now. You
can download most of the system diagrams from his website.
Good luck with your system and keep us posted.
Cheers,
John
PS: Our EFIS/ONE is being shipped next week!
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