Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:48 AM - Unacceptable Aircraft Radios (Fergus Kyle)
2. 06:57 AM - Re: Electric Trim Switches (Charlie Kuss)
3. 07:37 AM - 28 volt radios... (hausding, sid)
4. 07:40 AM - Re: Electric Trim Switches (Charlie Kuss)
5. 08:11 AM - Re: Electric Trim Switches (Kent Ashton)
6. 08:42 AM - Re: Spell & Grammer (Dale Martin)
7. 09:34 AM - Re: Electric Trim Switches (Jim Stone)
8. 11:09 AM - Re: Battery failure modes? (czechsix@juno.com)
9. 11:10 AM - Re: Automotive Spark Plugs (czechsix@juno.com)
10. 02:03 PM - SD-8 TEMPERATURE DATA (Ken Harrill)
11. 02:54 PM - Re: Automotive Spark Plugs (BobsV35B@aol.com)
12. 03:58 PM - Re: cell phone antenna (jerb)
13. 04:38 PM - Re: cell phone antenna (KITFOXZ@aol.com)
14. 09:00 PM - Re: cell phone antenna (Mickey Coggins)
15. 09:43 PM - Re: 11334 Doyne (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Unacceptable Aircraft Radios |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
| In a message dated 4/21/2004 11:42:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
bob.nuckolls@cox.net
| writes:|
| > Aviation is the last bastion of AM communications
| > left on the surface of the planet.| >
| > Bob . . .
|
| Well, ignoring Children's Band, that is true ;-) And what a great place
aviation
| would be for Amplitude-Compandored Single Side-Band or narrow band FM.
Looking at the cost of full-featured VHF amateur rigs, there's no excuse for
aircraft
| radios to sell (new) at above 40% of their current street prices /soapbox
| off/
|
| -Bill B
Amen to that!
Buy a handheld and wait for the final decision........... That's what decree
demands...
Ferg
Europa Classic 914
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Electric Trim Switches |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss <chaskuss@bellsouth.net>
Troy,
You can eliminate the need for relays for electric pitch and roll servos by purchasing
the new Ray Allen G307 (or G305) grips. The Honeywell Microswitch brand
hat switch on these units is rated for 15 amps. See
http://www.rayallencompany.com/products/stickgripsG3.html
I'm building a tandem (RV-8A) aircraft, so panel switches are out of the question
for me. I plan to install two toggle switches to control who has control of
the electric trim (4 pole double throw ON-OFF-ON) and flaps, which are also
stick grip controlled (3 pole double throw ON-OFF-ON) This will allow these functions
to be shunted to either the pilot (ON) no one (OFF) or co-pilot (ON).
I want the OFF position to deal with any potential "runaway" condition.
Yesterday, I placed several orders for electrical parts. I asked Waytek Electronics
(a Carling Technologies distributor) for pricing on these 2 switches. Carling
part numbers are:
HM251-78 $17.71 each 3 pole double throw with 1/4" female
fast on connectors and chrome bat handle
IM251-78 $$2398 each 4 pole double throw with 1/4" female
fast on connectors and chrome bat handle
The problem is that there is a minimum of 11 for each item to place a special
order for these items. Does anyone on the list know of a Carling distributor
who stocks these? Failing that, anyone want to go in on a group purchase to get
these? I can supply a copy of Waytek's quote "off list" to anyone interested.
Charlie Kuss
RV-8A wiring
Boca Raton, Fl.
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Troy Scott" <tscott1217@bellsouth.net>
>
>Gentlemen,
>
>
>I plan to have electric trim controls on the stick(s). These will need
>relays, since the switches are small and the currents large. I also plan to
>install either a pullable breaker or switch as Electric Trim Interrupt. I'm
>thinking it might also be good to have a direct (no relays) means of
>controlling the trim motors. I'm thinking of installing a pair of
>(ON)-none-(ON) rocker switches on the console. Is this commonly done? Or do
>most of you choose either stick-mounted controls or console-mounted
>controls, but not both? What about stick-mounted controls on the pilot's
>side only and console mounted controls for when the passenger/pilot takes
>the controls? What about a "take control" switch to determine which set of
>trim controls works....., is this necessary?
>
>Regards,
>Troy
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | 28 volt radios... |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "hausding, sid" <sidh@charter.net>
Item number: 2473438116
Dale, another Kx - 155 but without glideslope.......great price. So far.
Sid
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Electric Trim Switches |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss <chaskuss@bellsouth.net>
Sorry folks,
I just noticed a typo in my first post. The IM251-78 switch is supposed to be
priced at $23.98
Charlie Kuss
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss <chaskuss@bellsouth.net>
>
>Troy,
> You can eliminate the need for relays for electric pitch and roll servos by purchasing
the new Ray Allen G307 (or G305) grips. The Honeywell Microswitch brand
hat switch on these units is rated for 15 amps. See
>
>http://www.rayallencompany.com/products/stickgripsG3.html
>
> I'm building a tandem (RV-8A) aircraft, so panel switches are out of the question
for me. I plan to install two toggle switches to control who has control
of the electric trim (4 pole double throw ON-OFF-ON) and flaps, which are also
stick grip controlled (3 pole double throw ON-OFF-ON) This will allow these
functions to be shunted to either the pilot (ON) no one (OFF) or co-pilot (ON).
I want the OFF position to deal with any potential "runaway" condition.
> Yesterday, I placed several orders for electrical parts. I asked Waytek Electronics
(a Carling Technologies distributor) for pricing on these 2 switches. Carling
part numbers are:
>
>HM251-78 $17.71 each 3 pole double throw with 1/4" female
fast on connectors and chrome bat handle
>IM251-78 $$2398 each 4 pole double throw with 1/4" female
fast on connectors and chrome bat handle
>
> The problem is that there is a minimum of 11 for each item to place a special
order for these items. Does anyone on the list know of a Carling distributor
who stocks these? Failing that, anyone want to go in on a group purchase to get
these? I can supply a copy of Waytek's quote "off list" to anyone interested.
>
>Charlie Kuss
>RV-8A wiring
>Boca Raton, Fl.
>
>
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Troy Scott" <tscott1217@bellsouth.net>
>>
>>Gentlemen,
>>
>>
>>I plan to have electric trim controls on the stick(s). These will need
>>relays, since the switches are small and the currents large. I also plan to
>>install either a pullable breaker or switch as Electric Trim Interrupt. I'm
>>thinking it might also be good to have a direct (no relays) means of
>>controlling the trim motors. I'm thinking of installing a pair of
>>(ON)-none-(ON) rocker switches on the console. Is this commonly done? Or do
>>most of you choose either stick-mounted controls or console-mounted
>>controls, but not both? What about stick-mounted controls on the pilot's
>>side only and console mounted controls for when the passenger/pilot takes
>>the controls? What about a "take control" switch to determine which set of
>>trim controls works....., is this necessary?
>>
>>Regards,
>>Troy
>>
>>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Electric Trim Switches |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kent Ashton <kjashton@vnet.net>
> From: "Troy Scott" <tscott1217@bellsouth.net>
> I plan to have electric trim controls on the stick(s). These will need
> relays, since the switches are small and the currents large. I also plan to
> install either a pullable breaker or switch as Electric Trim Interrupt. I'm
> thinking it might also be good to have a direct (no relays) means of
> controlling the trim motors. I'm thinking of installing a pair of
> (ON)-none-(ON) rocker switches on the console. Is this commonly done?
I have this kind of rocker switch on mine but the currents are small. The
trim motor is a modified electric screwdriver that Alex Strong sells. Works
fine, though. Mine's in the armrest behind the throttles (Cozy III)
--Kent
>Or do
> most of you choose either stick-mounted controls or console-mounted
> controls, but not both? What about stick-mounted controls on the pilot's
> side only and console mounted controls for when the passenger/pilot takes
> the controls? What about a "take control" switch to determine which set of
> trim controls works....., is this necessary?
>
> Regards,
> Troy
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Spell & Grammer |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dale Martin" <niceez@cableone.net>
Speaking of typo's (I think I can talk to my kids and type at the same
time -NOT) I noticed that when I sent a post yesterday (besides all the
mistakes) the little degree zero marks were stripped from my post and it
even made it harder to understand what was being mentioned.... guess this
system doesn't like them.
To all, I am sorry for all the grammar errors in that post.
Dale Martin
Lewiston, ID
LEZ-235
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charlie Kuss" <chaskuss@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Electric Trim Switches
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss
<chaskuss@bellsouth.net>
>
> Sorry folks,
> I just noticed a typo in my first post. The IM251-78 switch is supposed
to be priced at $23.98
> Charlie Kuss
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Electric Trim Switches |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" <jrstone@insightbb.com>
Charlie,
Have you looked at the Infinity web site? JD has a good explanation on
transferring command of the stick switches via two switches. He also sells
the switches and relays needed. The locking lever switches were just 15
bucks.
Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charlie Kuss" <chaskuss@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Electric Trim Switches
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss
<chaskuss@bellsouth.net>
>
> Troy,
> You can eliminate the need for relays for electric pitch and roll servos
by purchasing the new Ray Allen G307 (or G305) grips. The Honeywell
Microswitch brand hat switch on these units is rated for 15 amps. See
>
> http://www.rayallencompany.com/products/stickgripsG3.html
>
> I'm building a tandem (RV-8A) aircraft, so panel switches are out of the
question for me. I plan to install two toggle switches to control who has
control of the electric trim (4 pole double throw ON-OFF-ON) and flaps,
which are also stick grip controlled (3 pole double throw ON-OFF-ON) This
will allow these functions to be shunted to either the pilot (ON) no one
(OFF) or co-pilot (ON). I want the OFF position to deal with any potential
"runaway" condition.
> Yesterday, I placed several orders for electrical parts. I asked Waytek
Electronics (a Carling Technologies distributor) for pricing on these 2
switches. Carling part numbers are:
>
> HM251-78 $17.71 each 3 pole double throw with 1/4"
female fast on connectors and chrome bat handle
> IM251-78 $$2398 each 4 pole double throw with 1/4"
female fast on connectors and chrome bat handle
>
> The problem is that there is a minimum of 11 for each item to place a
special order for these items. Does anyone on the list know of a Carling
distributor who stocks these? Failing that, anyone want to go in on a group
purchase to get these? I can supply a copy of Waytek's quote "off list" to
anyone interested.
>
> Charlie Kuss
> RV-8A wiring
> Boca Raton, Fl.
>
>
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Troy Scott"
<tscott1217@bellsouth.net>
> >
> >Gentlemen,
> >
> >
> >I plan to have electric trim controls on the stick(s). These will need
> >relays, since the switches are small and the currents large. I also plan
to
> >install either a pullable breaker or switch as Electric Trim Interrupt.
I'm
> >thinking it might also be good to have a direct (no relays) means of
> >controlling the trim motors. I'm thinking of installing a pair of
> >(ON)-none-(ON) rocker switches on the console. Is this commonly done? Or
do
> >most of you choose either stick-mounted controls or console-mounted
> >controls, but not both? What about stick-mounted controls on the pilot's
> >side only and console mounted controls for when the passenger/pilot takes
> >the controls? What about a "take control" switch to determine which set
of
> >trim controls works....., is this necessary?
> >
> >Regards,
> >Troy
> >
> >
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Battery failure modes? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: czechsix@juno.com
Chad, at least one failure mode I've heard of in both cars and airplanes is the
physical failure of the battery post or bolt breaking off. Sounds like the best
way to mitigate this failure is to use a flexible battery lead that doesn't
stress the attach point, and to be very careful about torquing it right.
As for internal failures within the battery that render it weakened or inop, that
depends on what kind of battery you are talking about. Most people now are
using RG batteries, which eliminates many of the possible problems with other
battery types. Lots in the archives on RG batteries...I'm not an expert on them,
maybe Bob or someone else can enlighten us on what other failure modes, if
any, the RG can experience. Bottom line is if you change it out every other
year it reduces odds of failure to very slim.
--Mark Navratil
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
RV-8A N2D finishing...
From: Chad Robinson <crobinson@rfgonline.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery failure modes?
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chad Robinson <crobinson@rfgonline.com>
What types of failures can occur to a battery in flight, assuming various
alternator conditions? Does anybody have a list of failure modes?
Regards,
Chad
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Automotive Spark Plugs |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: czechsix@juno.com
Dale, just an FYI, I asked on the RV-List if anyone is having problems with auto
plugs fouling like you have experienced. So far a number of responses on and
off List indicate no problems at all like this, for either the Electroair or
LSE systems. Many responses indicated hundreds of hours on a set of auto plugs
and still going strong with no trouble. Several replies noted they were using
cheaper plugs than what Klaus supplies with the LSE and these were working
fine also. Remember these are all O-320's, O-360's, or IO-360's. I'm thinking
the issue you have experienced must be related to the O-235, unless there's
something else about the setup or operation of your engine that could be causing
it. At any rate it doesn't sound like an LSE vs. Electroair issue per se.
As a side note, I know a guy with an O-320 powered Long EZ who runs auto plugs
with magnetos. Never heard of anyone else doing this, but he claims they work
fine for him....
>With 319 hours experience with an LSE CDI system and also fouled motorcycle
>plugs (yes that's right - fouled plugs) every 50 to 75 hours. The magneto
>would run smoother then the E.I. system during this. After more research we
>find that the truth was not told by the LSE about the proper choice of
>plugs. I should have been using REM 37BY's (the spark plug that was
>developed specifically for my engine) just like I do for the magneto.
>
>Those who I've spoke with say they get 800 to 900 hours out of there
>aircraft spark plugs. Having used the triple ground arm plugs from
>NippenDenso plugs (LSE want $15 per plug) I can say they work a little
>better but they still would foul during a run-up after 40 25 hours and this
>was due to carbon deposits the 235L2C is known for -(my best guess anyway).
>Most interesting is they were all on top and the aircraft REM 37BY plugs and
>magneto fired all the bottom plugs and ran smooth. Best wishes to LSE
>however I have switched to Electro-Air's E.I. which recommends Aircraft
>plugs or the 386 plugs that fit into the standard aircraft cylinder head.
>
>You owe it to yourself to speak with Jeff Rose of Electro-Air if your
>airplane use's a starter. He recommends against hand propping for those
>with dual E.I.'s. His system already has the "longer duration spark" that
>LSE wants more $$$ for and use's a 60 tooth wheel to make timing adjustments
>every 12 verses the once every 360 (or 720) of the LSE system.
Just curious, other than starting, does the 60 tooth pickup make any real world
difference in operation? The longer duration spark is definitely an advantage
for lighting very lean mixtures, but at Lycoming rpms I can't imagine that sampling
the rate any more often than every crank rotation would have a measurable
effect on efficiency of the spark timing. I suppose during a rapid change
of power, i.e. shoving the throttle from idle to full power, a higher sampling
rate could be marginally better, but you aren't really worried about efficiency
in short duration bursts like that so if the LSE system works adequately for
quick power changes (which I've heard no complaints about) it would not seem
to be an advantage to sample more than necessary. But maybe I'm missing something...
>They both use manifold pressure & electronics to retard or advance the timing.
Do you know if Jeff is still using the same differential pressure sensor for MAP
and the same timing curves as tested by CAFE? The LSE has always used an absolute
pressure sensor as it was designed for aircraft use from the outset, whereas
I believe the Electroair system was an automotive system that used the psid
sensor for MAP. CAFE noted this as a problem in the testing they did. Differential
press sensor works fine on a car, but won't be optimum over the range
of altitudes an airplane experiences...the CAFE testing showed this to be true
in several scenarios where the spark advance was wrong and the mags actually
outperformed the E.I. in these instances. Too bad CAFE didn't test the LSE
system as well...Klaus claims he sent them a system but they never got around
to testing it. A real shame.
It would be cool if somebody would put both an LSE system and an Electroair system
on their airplane and fly different profiles, alternately turning one or the
other off to see the effect on airspeed, fuel flow, engine roughness, etc.
That would be the best real world test of any tangible differences between the
performance of the two designs....
>snip
>
--Mark Navratil
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
RV-8A N2D finishing...
Message 10
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| Subject: | SD-8 TEMPERATURE DATA |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken Harrill <KHarrill@osa.state.sc.us>
RV-6 CRUISING AT 9300 FT DENSITY ALTITUDE, 2400 RPM
THE TEMPERATURE PROBE ATTACHED WITH ALUMINUM TAPE TO THE SD-8 REGULATOR
DATA RECORDING BEGAN AFTER 45 MINUTES OF FLIGHT
AT TIME :00 SD-8 ALTERNATOR SWITCHED ON AND MAIN ALTERNATOR SWITCHED OFF
TIME OAT - F REGULATOR - F
:00 43 86
:07 45 97
:12 45 100
:16 45 101
:19 45 101
:24 45 102
:28 45 101
:36 45 100
:43 45 99
LOAD ANALYSIS:
TYPICAL MAXIMUM
AMPS AMPS
ENG MONITOR 0.4 0.4
GPS 1.5 1.5
ALT ENCODER 0.2 0.3
TRANSPONDER 1.8 1.8
TURN COORDINATOR 0.4 1.0
INTERCOMM 0.2 0.2
EFIS 0.8 1.0
COMM RADIO 0.3 3.2
TOTAL 5.6 9.4
This data does not indicate a heat problem for this installation in which
the regulator is bolted directly to the firewall.
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Automotive Spark Plugs |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
In a message dated 4/22/04 1:12:16 PM Central Daylight Time,
czechsix@juno.com writes:
As a side note, I know a guy with an O-320 powered Long EZ who runs auto
plugs with magnetos. Never heard of anyone else doing this, but he claims they
work fine for him....
Good Evening Mark,
For What It Is Worth --- There are many 320 Lycomings that have
been flying for years using autogas and magnetos in certificated
airplanes. Auto gas approvals abound for that engine.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Airpark LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: cell phone antenna |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: jerb <ulflyer@verizon.net>
Note - Use of conventional cell phones while airborne is illegal.
jerb
At 10:42 AM 4/20/04 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Troy Scott"
><tscott1217@bellsouth.net>
>
>Richard said:
>
><<Get a headset and make an extension for it then lift the whole phone.
>No coax loss, no designing an antenna.
>
>My $0.02.
>
>Dick Tasker>>
>
>Richard,
>
>That's a great idea for the "emergency, HELP!!" version. But I'm hoping for
>a version that will let me receive calls. On camping trips I'm sometimes
>accompanied by an MD who needs to remain in contact. What about an
>amplifier to make up for the signal loss?
>
>-Troy
>tscott1217@bellsouth.net
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: cell phone antenna |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: KITFOXZ@aol.com
In a message dated 4/22/2004 6:59:49 PM Eastern Standard Time,
ulflyer@verizon.net writes:
Note - Use of conventional cell phones while airborne is illegal.
jerb
Yes, airborne use of conventional cell phones was illegal back in the
eighties when I used to work for Motorola. It may still be, I don't know. The
theory is that as a cell phone moves around in a "cell" of transmitter/receiver
towers, the "system" tracks the phone's signal strength in order to hand the call
off to the next tower. If the phone were elevated by very much height, it
could raise so many towers that the system would become confused and not operate
at all. Potentially, this would tie up a lot of collective cell bandwidth
unnecessarily for no good purpose. This may be old information and the above
problems have been solved by other technology. I feel old...
John P. Marzluf
Columbus, Ohio
Kitfox Outback (out back in the garage)
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: cell phone antenna |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
What happens when I am standing on top of a 10,000 ft
mountain while skiing, and I can "see" dozens of GSM
antennas? Seems like it would be the same kind of
thing. I've often gotten calls while flying around
at 5-8000 ft. I hope I have not been breaking any laws! :-)
We use GSM here, so it may be different with a CDMA system.
Mickey
>Yes, airborne use of conventional cell phones was illegal back in the
>eighties when I used to work for Motorola. It may still be, I don't know. The
>theory is that as a cell phone moves around in a "cell" of transmitter/receiver
>towers, the "system" tracks the phone's signal strength in order to hand the call
>off to the next tower. If the phone were elevated by very much height, it
>could raise so many towers that the system would become confused and not operate
>at all. ...
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
Message 15
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
> The Sky-Tec starter is a PM starter. As far as I understand, the
> B&C is not a PM starter. What is the biggest drawback to a PM
> starter? In otherwords, what is the advantage to the B&C starter design?
>
>
> Thanks,
> Keith Doyne
PM starters will have higher inrush currents than
their equal power wound field starters. This may
be problematic for some processor based accessories
that like to reset during the millisecond-long brown-
out when the starter contactor closes. The B&C
and other wound field starters will be less likely
to exhibit this characteristic.
I've not had an opportunity to do comparative testing of
the various starters but I can say that the one-
size-fits all B&C starter does indeed fit and
crank all engines. Other brands have resorted to
"high torque" or "heavy duty" designs to handle
larger or high compression engines. The B&C has
worked well on every engine from 235 to 720 since day-one.
I will invite you to join us on the AeroElectric List
to continue this and similar discussions. It's useful to
share the information with as many folks as possible.
A further benefit can be realized with membership on
the list. There are lots of technically capable folks
on the list who can offer suggestions too. You can
join at . . .
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe/
Thanks!
Bob . . .
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( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
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