Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:11 AM - RE cell phone antenna (Glen Matejcek)
2. 06:39 AM - Copper tube ground (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 07:42 AM - Fusible link in series with breaker????? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 07:55 AM - Re: revison to audio system document (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 08:49 AM - sanity check (Dan Checkoway)
6. 08:49 AM - Re: Automotive Spark Plugs (Dale Martin)
7. 08:51 AM - Re: cell phone antenna (richard@riley.net)
8. 09:11 AM - Re: sanity check (Alex Peterson)
9. 09:34 AM - Re: sanity check (John Slade)
10. 09:57 AM - Re: sanity check (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
11. 10:11 AM - Re: cell phone antenna (jerb)
12. 10:17 AM - Re: sanity check (Dan Checkoway)
13. 10:19 AM - Re: sanity check (Dan Checkoway)
14. 10:22 AM - manual battery contactor (Bob Miller)
15. 10:35 AM - Re: sanity check (BTomm)
16. 10:51 AM - Bench test power supply opportunity (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
17. 11:13 AM - Thanks for Responses (Speedy11@aol.com)
18. 11:13 AM - Re: sanity check (Terry Watson)
19. 11:19 AM - Re: manual battery contactor (Harley)
20. 11:31 AM - Re: sanity check (Larry Bowen)
21. 11:53 AM - Re: Bench test power supply opportunity (Richard Tasker)
22. 11:56 AM - Re: sanity check (Jim Oke)
23. 11:57 AM - Re: manual battery contactor (Chad Robinson)
24. 12:15 PM - Re: manual battery contactor (Matt Prather)
25. 12:43 PM - electric trim switches (Troy Scott)
26. 12:58 PM - Re: sanity check (echristley@nc.rr.com)
27. 01:24 PM - Re: sanity check (klehman@albedo.net)
28. 01:52 PM - Re: sanity check (Scott Bilinski)
29. 01:59 PM - ACK E01 ELT antenna wire (Amit Dagan)
30. 02:07 PM - Re: sanity check (LarryRobertHelming)
31. 02:11 PM - Re: Thanks for Responses (LarryRobertHelming)
32. 02:42 PM - Re: sanity check (Greg Young)
33. 02:52 PM - Re: Bench test power supply opportunity (Ron Triano)
34. 02:58 PM - Re: ACK E01 ELT antenna wire (Matt Prather)
35. 03:12 PM - Re: Automotive Spark Plugs (czechsix@juno.com)
36. 03:19 PM - Re: electric trim switches (Charlie Kuss)
37. 03:52 PM - Re: electric trim switches (Jeffrey W. Skiba)
38. 05:58 PM - Re: Automotive Spark Plugs (BobsV35B@aol.com)
39. 06:07 PM - Re: ACK E01 ELT antenna wire (glong2)
40. 06:08 PM - Re: electric trim switches (John Schroeder)
41. 07:24 PM - Re: electric trim switches (Charlie Kuss)
42. 07:57 PM - Re: electric trim switches (Bruce Gray)
43. 08:31 PM - Re: manual battery contactor (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
Message 1
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| Subject: | RE cell phone antenna |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Glen Matejcek" <aerobubba@earthlink.net>
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins
<mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
> I've often gotten calls while flying around
>at 5-8000 ft. I hope I have not been breaking any laws! :-)
>Mickey
Mickey-
Weren't you listening when the flight attendant told you to turn your cell
phone off before departure?
Do not archive, even under smart*** !
gm
Message 2
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| Subject: | Copper tube ground |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 11:32 AM 4/21/2004 -0700, you wrote:
>Below is the result of your inquiry. It was submitted by
>Rick Crapse (rwcrapse@att.com) on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 at 11:32:49
>
>Wednesday, April 21, 2004
>
>Rick Crapse
>
>,
>Email: rwcrapse@att.com
>Comments/Questions: Hello Bob!
>
>I know this has been discussed before, but why wouldn't a copper pipe
>ground not work in a Cozy? It seems to me that copper which is a good
>conductor would work with silver soldered tabs to it. I was planning on a
>dual use here. Vacuum on the inside, and ground through the metal. Valerie
>Harris tells me that there is an issue here. Yes, I have your book, but am
>curious as to what the issue is. What I was planning on was to run my main
>power feed down the right and the sensor wires down the left.
The first ground system I described in the 'Connection
15 years ago focused on canard pushers and indeed, a
copper conduit was suggested as doubling for a wire
pathway and system ground. A number of builders used
this material with generally good success electrically.
It is a labor intensive technique. We deduced later that
running all wires together in the same bundle down one
side of the airplane produced a similarly "quiet" system.
What you propose would work. I'd recommend you run all
wiring down the same side of the aircraft so as to avoid
generating strong magnetic fields in the cockpit due to
any un-shared electron paths between right and left sides.
If it were my airplane, I'd ditch the vacuum pump, run
an all-electric system and use plain ol' wires to
carry the electrons.
I will invite you to join us on the AeroElectric List
to continue this and similar discussions. It's useful to
share the information with as many folks as possible.
A further benefit can be realized with membership on
the list. There are lots of technically capable folks
on the list who can offer suggestions too. You can
join at . . .
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe/
Thanks!
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
Message 3
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| Subject: | Fusible link in series with breaker????? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 10:31 PM 4/19/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>Bob
>Thanks for the quick reply. I have one more question. Looking at Figure Z-11
>"Generic Light Aircraft....." . Concerning the Alt. field. You show a
>fuselink off the top of the main power bus, to the "batt/alt switch" then a
>5 amp circuit breaker? why the redundancy? And would it be OK to just come
>off the bus with the 5 amp breaker then to the switch? Thanks in advance?
You'll note that the drawing you're citing features fuse blocks. When
we add the breaker in satisfaction of crowbar ov protection
requirements, we're
EXTENDING the bus structure to the breaker's location on the panel which
may be quite remote from the fuseblock. I.e. there is a long, potentially
unprotected, small diameter wire that runs from fuseblock to breaker. What
appears to be a "redundant" protection scheme is, in fact, a cascade. The
fusible link protects wire out to the breaker, the breaker protects wire
from the breaker on to the alternator while providing a mechanism for
the crowbar ov module to work against.
If you're fabricating a breaker panel, then the 5A alternator field
breaker can occupy a position on the bus along side all other breakers
and the need for extending the bus and protecting that extension
goes away.
I will invite you to join us on the AeroElectric List
to continue this and similar discussions. It's useful to
share the information with as many folks as possible.
A further benefit can be realized with membership on
the list. There are lots of technically capable folks
on the list who can offer suggestions too. You can
join at . . .
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe/
Thanks!
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: revison to audio system document |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
>Comments/Questions: The link on how to wire stereo music won't work.
>Please, any help there?
Sorry, I revised the document to revision E and didn't roll
the revision letter into the link. Thanks for the heads-up. I've
fixed the link from the webpage. You can access the new document
here:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9009/9009-700E.pdf
Bob . . .
-----------------------------------------
( Experience and common sense cannot be )
( replaced with policy and procedures. )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
-----------------------------------------
Message 5
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
I need a sanity check. Yesterday I was helping a builder with a few odds
and ends, and the topic of a "fuel pump is operating" lamp came up. He
showed me his plan for wiring it, which was simply to wire the lamp in
parallel with the fuel pump...same fuse, shared circuit.
A warning lamp went off in my head (pun intended) and I recommended that
instead of piggybacking the lamp on the fuel pump's circuit, he should use a
simple relay setup and fuse the lamp circuit separately. I advised that
this has better inherent fault protection (should the lamp circuit short
out, the fuel pump will not be affected). If the lamp wiring were to short
out somehow, the fuse would blow and the fuel pump would be dead.
He looked at me like I was nuts, adding unnecessary complexity. Am I nuts?
I tend to think the folks on this list lean toward the conservative side,
toward the "engineered for all possibilities" philosophy. But some people
may not want to go to that extent if the likelihood of failure is slim to
none. I'd love to hear if I'm getting too over-analytical in my "old age"
and should relax about some of this stuff...
Now that I think about it, instead of a relay and separate fuse, I figure an
inline fuse could be used on the lamp circuit. That would reduce complexity
but still provide some fault tolerance...right?
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Automotive Spark Plugs |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dale Martin" <niceez@cableone.net>
Mark,
The MAP sensor is different from years ago...... One more thing. The
absolute max ceiling of over 30,000 feet is a LEZ with a Electro-Air
ignition. Jeff has over 2,500 unit in operation and I don't think old Klaus
is as fortunate. I myself like the more compact size and not having to
worry about the wires being to close together.
There are other reports of failures but we don't want Klaus run out of
business. Every time he does and update the older stuff is crap (to him)
and he does not want to support it. Very poor business practice IMO. I
have dealt with Klaus for years and consider him a friend and a good
person - just not a good businessman.
Yes, 235's are subject to more carbon deposit's because of a lousy intake
design then 320's or 360's. Gary Hertzler is the only one I know of that
has change intake runners and is using an Ellision TBI with good success in
a Varieze (a 230 mph VEZ).
A 235 has a few other drawbacks also. The correct engine for the LEZ was
suppose to be a 320 but Burt decided to use a 235 to make it lighter and
would greatly help small pilots with the C/G considerations and a 235 was
offered to him for $1,500.00.
John Roncz told me that when I worked at Scaled Composites.
I feel I have had enough dealings with LSE products to know they work but
also have enough common sense to know when I'm looking at a better value for
the money. I was able to sell my old unit to a friend because he hand props
his 0-200 and I was going to get the Plasma III. I got to thinking I had
better do an assessment on what else was out there and see if there was
anything better then LSE's E.I. system. I am confident I made the correct
choice. Not only that Jeff Rose is a great person and a good businessman
and you know as long as he can fog a mirror he will stand behind his
product.
Nuf said,
-Dale
----- Original Message -----
From: <czechsix@juno.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Automotive Spark Plugs
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: czechsix@juno.com
>
>
> Dale, just an FYI, I asked on the RV-List if anyone is having problems
with auto plugs fouling like you have experienced. So far a number of
responses on and off List indicate no problems at all like this, for either
the Electroair or LSE systems. Many responses indicated hundreds of hours
on a set of auto plugs and still going strong with no trouble. Several
replies noted they were using cheaper plugs than what Klaus supplies with
the LSE and these were working fine also. Remember these are all O-320's,
O-360's, or IO-360's. I'm thinking the issue you have experienced must be
related to the O-235, unless there's something else about the setup or
operation of your engine that could be causing it. At any rate it doesn't
sound like an LSE vs. Electroair issue per se.
>
> As a side note, I know a guy with an O-320 powered Long EZ who runs auto
plugs with magnetos. Never heard of anyone else doing this, but he claims
they work fine for him....
>
> >With 319 hours experience with an LSE CDI system and also fouled
motorcycle
> >plugs (yes that's right - fouled plugs) every 50 to 75 hours. The
magneto
> >would run smoother then the E.I. system during this. After more research
we
> >find that the truth was not told by the LSE about the proper choice of
> >plugs. I should have been using REM 37BY's (the spark plug that was
> >developed specifically for my engine) just like I do for the magneto.
> >
> >Those who I've spoke with say they get 800 to 900 hours out of there
> >aircraft spark plugs. Having used the triple ground arm plugs from
> >NippenDenso plugs (LSE want $15 per plug) I can say they work a little
> >better but they still would foul during a run-up after 40 25 hours and
this
> >was due to carbon deposits the 235L2C is known for -(my best guess
anyway).
> >Most interesting is they were all on top and the aircraft REM 37BY plugs
and
> >magneto fired all the bottom plugs and ran smooth. Best wishes to LSE
> >however I have switched to Electro-Air's E.I. which recommends Aircraft
> >plugs or the 386 plugs that fit into the standard aircraft cylinder head.
> >
> >You owe it to yourself to speak with Jeff Rose of Electro-Air if your
> >airplane use's a starter. He recommends against hand propping for those
> >with dual E.I.'s. His system already has the "longer duration spark"
that
> >LSE wants more $$$ for and use's a 60 tooth wheel to make timing
adjustments
> >every 12 verses the once every 360 (or 720) of the LSE system.
>
> Just curious, other than starting, does the 60 tooth pickup make any real
world difference in operation? The longer duration spark is definitely an
advantage for lighting very lean mixtures, but at Lycoming rpms I can't
imagine that sampling the rate any more often than every crank rotation
would have a measurable effect on efficiency of the spark timing. I suppose
during a rapid change of power, i.e. shoving the throttle from idle to full
power, a higher sampling rate could be marginally better, but you aren't
really worried about efficiency in short duration bursts like that so if the
LSE system works adequately for quick power changes (which I've heard no
complaints about) it would not seem to be an advantage to sample more than
necessary. But maybe I'm missing something...
>
> >They both use manifold pressure & electronics to retard or advance the
timing.
>
> Do you know if Jeff is still using the same differential pressure sensor
for MAP and the same timing curves as tested by CAFE? The LSE has always
used an absolute pressure sensor as it was designed for aircraft use from
the outset, whereas I believe the Electroair system was an automotive system
that used the psid sensor for MAP. CAFE noted this as a problem in the
testing they did. Differential press sensor works fine on a car, but won't
be optimum over the range of altitudes an airplane experiences...the CAFE
testing showed this to be true in several scenarios where the spark advance
was wrong and the mags actually outperformed the E.I. in these instances.
Too bad CAFE didn't test the LSE system as well...Klaus claims he sent them
a system but they never got around to testing it. A real shame.
>
> It would be cool if somebody would put both an LSE system and an
Electroair system on their airplane and fly different profiles, alternately
turning one or the other off to see the effect on airspeed, fuel flow,
engine roughness, etc. That would be the best real world test of any
tangible differences between the performance of the two designs....
>
> >snip
> >
>
> --Mark Navratil
> Cedar Rapids, Iowa
> RV-8A N2D finishing...
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: cell phone antenna |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: richard@riley.net
At 07:35 PM 4/22/04 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: KITFOXZ@aol.com
>
>In a message dated 4/22/2004 6:59:49 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>ulflyer@verizon.net writes:
>Note - Use of conventional cell phones while airborne is illegal.
>jerb
>Yes, airborne use of conventional cell phones was illegal back in the
>eighties when I used to work for Motorola. It may still be, I don't
>know. The
>theory is that as a cell phone moves around in a "cell" of
>transmitter/receiver
>towers, the "system" tracks the phone's signal strength in order to hand
>the call
>off to the next tower. If the phone were elevated by very much height, it
>could raise so many towers that the system would become confused and not
>operate
>at all. Potentially, this would tie up a lot of collective cell bandwidth
>unnecessarily for no good purpose. This may be old information and the above
>problems have been solved by other technology. I feel old...
Old, original analog cell phones are prohibited in flight by FCC. But PCS
devices, which work in different bands, are covered by a completely
different set of regulations, which don't say anything about aircraft. I
have a long brief I wrote for my day job on it, I'll look it up.
That said, my I've looked at my sprint phone in the air - even though it
can "see" dozens of cell sites it says it's out of the service area - I
suspect it's got some internal logic that shuts it down in such
circumstances.
Message 8
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson@earthlink.net>
> He looked at me like I was nuts, adding unnecessary
> complexity. Am I nuts?
Yes:>)
Seriously, the reason for wanting a light on the boost pump is simply so
that if you forget to turn it off after some climbout, you'll notice the
light. Prior to engine start, you'll know if the pump is working by
listening to it, so no factor there. Before landing, if it doesn't work
what would you do about it anyway? The light won't tell you much in
flight other than the position of the switch, which you can look at
anyway.
Alex Peterson
Maple Grove, MN
RV6-A N66AP 458 hours
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~alexpeterson/
Message 9
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Slade" <sladerj@bellsouth.net>
> I need a sanity check. Yesterday I was helping a builder with a few odds
> and ends, and the topic of a "fuel pump is operating" lamp came up. He
> showed me his plan for wiring it, which was simply to wire the lamp in
> parallel with the fuel pump...same fuse, shared circuit....
Dan,
I don't see how the "pump operating" light would be anything more than
annoying light on the panel during night flights. Either way you suggest
wiring it it doesnt tell you much you dont already know. Warning lights are
to tell you when something IS NOT operating. He'll know when the fuel pump
isn't operating by the sweat that builds up when the big fan stops. :)
Seriously - if he really wants a "pump operating" light, I'd say it should
be dependant on fuel flow, not power to the pump. A low fuel pressure
warning, perhaps.
My 2c
John Slade
Cozy IV Rotary turbo, flying
http://kgarden.com/cozy
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: sanity check |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
In a message dated 4/23/04 10:50:51 AM Central Daylight Time,
dan@rvproject.com writes:
> Now that I think about it, instead of a relay and separate fuse, I figure
> an
> inline fuse could be used on the lamp circuit. That would reduce complexity
> but still provide some fault tolerance...right?
The fuse sounds like a good idea, but it should be the minimal necessary to
power the lamp. LED is even better (smaller fuse). I have no idea if an short
would pop the little fuse quick enough to save the main pump feed, but it
seems like it would. Maybe an experiment with all those extra fuses you have
laying around? I have a "pump on" LED block on my annunciator, and it's a great
reminder to turn the pump off after switching tanks. And I'll seriously
consider adding an inline fuse at the annunciator connection on the pump feed wire-
should have thought of that myself, thanks for passing it along.
Mark Phillips
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: cell phone antenna |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: jerb <ulflyer@verizon.net>
It's is still illegal today as far as I know - you'll need an Air-Phone if
you want to have legal phone service while airborne or maybe one of them
Iridium satellite jobs.
jerb.
At 07:35 PM 4/22/04 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: KITFOXZ@aol.com
>
>In a message dated 4/22/2004 6:59:49 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>ulflyer@verizon.net writes:
>Note - Use of conventional cell phones while airborne is illegal.
>jerb
>Yes, airborne use of conventional cell phones was illegal back in the
>eighties when I used to work for Motorola. It may still be, I don't
>know. The
>theory is that as a cell phone moves around in a "cell" of
>transmitter/receiver
>towers, the "system" tracks the phone's signal strength in order to hand
>the call
>off to the next tower. If the phone were elevated by very much height, it
>could raise so many towers that the system would become confused and not
>operate
>at all. Potentially, this would tie up a lot of collective cell bandwidth
>unnecessarily for no good purpose. This may be old information and the above
>problems have been solved by other technology. I feel old...
>
>John P. Marzluf
>Columbus, Ohio
>Kitfox Outback (out back in the garage)
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: sanity check |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
Alex,
I'm not advocating the warning lamp...I don't have one in my plane and
personally don't believe it's very useful. But this builder has one, and I
was just trying to determine the safest way for him to wire it.
)_( Dan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson@earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: sanity check
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson"
<alexpeterson@earthlink.net>
>
> > He looked at me like I was nuts, adding unnecessary
> > complexity. Am I nuts?
>
> Yes:>)
>
> Seriously, the reason for wanting a light on the boost pump is simply so
> that if you forget to turn it off after some climbout, you'll notice the
> light. Prior to engine start, you'll know if the pump is working by
> listening to it, so no factor there. Before landing, if it doesn't work
> what would you do about it anyway? The light won't tell you much in
> flight other than the position of the switch, which you can look at
> anyway.
>
> Alex Peterson
> Maple Grove, MN
> RV6-A N66AP 458 hours
>
> http://www.home.earthlink.net/~alexpeterson/
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: sanity check |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
You're preaching to the choir. 8-)
You guys might be missing my point...which is that the guy *already* has the
light in his panel and definitely wants to use it. I was just trying to
come up with a safe way to wire it. My recommendation was to use a relay
instead of his way of just wiring it in parallel with the pump itself.
That's what I want to know if I'm nuts about... ;-)
do not archive
)_( Dan
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Slade" <sladerj@bellsouth.net>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: sanity check
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Slade"
<sladerj@bellsouth.net>
>
> > I need a sanity check. Yesterday I was helping a builder with a few
odds
> > and ends, and the topic of a "fuel pump is operating" lamp came up. He
> > showed me his plan for wiring it, which was simply to wire the lamp in
> > parallel with the fuel pump...same fuse, shared circuit....
>
> Dan,
> I don't see how the "pump operating" light would be anything more than
> annoying light on the panel during night flights. Either way you suggest
> wiring it it doesnt tell you much you dont already know. Warning lights
are
> to tell you when something IS NOT operating. He'll know when the fuel pump
> isn't operating by the sweat that builds up when the big fan stops. :)
>
> Seriously - if he really wants a "pump operating" light, I'd say it should
> be dependant on fuel flow, not power to the pump. A low fuel pressure
> warning, perhaps.
> My 2c
> John Slade
> Cozy IV Rotary turbo, flying
> http://kgarden.com/cozy
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | manual battery contactor |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bob Miller" <drmiller@cvillepsychology.net>
Many thanks to Bob Nuckolls for the AeroElectric Connection. I suspect he has
saved many a pilot's buns, and I'm definitely planning on having mine be among
them!
I do have a couple questions that I haven't been able to find the answers to.
Two of them are very basic and regard electron flow, and the other regards the
possibility of a manually operated battery contactor.
Could someone help me with a couple questions on some of the material in the book?
Understanding the first two questions below would help me better understand
some of the other principles in the book, which I have read pretty thoroughly.
Question 1: On page 1-2 of the Connection it states that when resistors are connected
in series, the sum of the voltage drops across each resistor equals the
total voltage applied to the string. I'm interpreting that to mean that there
is zero pressure downstream of the last resistor in line but, if this were
true, if you only had one resistor there would be zero voltage available for
a downstream device. I've seen similar statements in other books, but just
cannot figure it out. What simple fact am I missing?
Question 2: On page1-3 (I told you these were basic questions!) in the top drawing
of Figure 1-4 it shows 13.8 volts of pressure in the wire between the +battery
terminal and the landing light when the switch is open. I don't understand
how could pressure go through an open switch..? But more fundamentally, if
electrons flow from negative to positive, wouldn't the pressure be between the
negative terminal (or ground wire for the light) and the light? Maybe it
is that the positive terminal exerts sort of a "sucking" type pressure on electrons?
(But then wouldn't it be called the negative terminal :-) ?)
Question 3: Those of us installing Jabiru engines only get 10amps "continuous"
out of the alternator, and are reluctant to spend one of those on a battery contactor.
Might it be possible to fabricate a manually operated contactor, perhaps
operated by a standard push-pull cable from the cockpit? If so, could anyone
suggest some ideas?
BTW, given that Jabirus are becoming increasingly popular, this might be an item
people would purchase if available.
Many thanks,
Bob Miller
Message 15
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BTomm <fvalarm@rapidnet.net>
When an incandescent bulb fails it goes open circuit "probably" always.
This would not affect the operation of the pump. That's not to say that
the wiring for the lamp circuit adds some risk for failure thereby causing
the fuse to trip. I don't see a problem here other than the circuit should
be labeled "fuel pump". A "fuel pump is operating" lamp should be
controlled by a pressure switch indicating that the fuel pump is producing
correct output pressure and volume. This scenario is not required for an
Aux pump in my opinion.
Bevan
RV7A fuse
On Friday, April 23, 2004 8:45 AM, Dan Checkoway [SMTP:dan@rvproject.com]
wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway"
<dan@rvproject.com>
>
> I need a sanity check. Yesterday I was helping a builder with a few odds
> and ends, and the topic of a "fuel pump is operating" lamp came up. He
> showed me his plan for wiring it, which was simply to wire the lamp in
> parallel with the fuel pump...same fuse, shared circuit.
>
> A warning lamp went off in my head (pun intended) and I recommended that
> instead of piggybacking the lamp on the fuel pump's circuit, he should
use a
> simple relay setup and fuse the lamp circuit separately. I advised that
> this has better inherent fault protection (should the lamp circuit short
> out, the fuel pump will not be affected). If the lamp wiring were to
short
> out somehow, the fuse would blow and the fuel pump would be dead.
>
> He looked at me like I was nuts, adding unnecessary complexity. Am I
nuts?
> I tend to think the folks on this list lean toward the conservative side,
> toward the "engineered for all possibilities" philosophy. But some
people
> may not want to go to that extent if the likelihood of failure is slim to
> none. I'd love to hear if I'm getting too over-analytical in my "old
age"
> and should relax about some of this stuff...
>
> Now that I think about it, instead of a relay and separate fuse, I figure
an
> inline fuse could be used on the lamp circuit. That would reduce
complexity
> but still provide some fault tolerance...right?
>
> )_( Dan
> RV-7 N714D
> http://www.rvproject.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Bench test power supply opportunity |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
There's a bunch of these critters on Ebay for $25.00 each
free shipping or lower prices + $7 shipping. Either way
they're a good deal.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3172234463
Listing says they'll adjust up to 13.8 volts. This makes them
suited to ground testing your panel mounted goodies or bench
testing . . . this device is rated for up to 13 amps load. I
just picked up a couple but this supplier seems to have quite
a few . . .
Bob . . .
-----------------------------------------
( Experience and common sense cannot be )
( replaced with policy and procedures. )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
-----------------------------------------
Message 17
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|
| Subject: | Thanks for Responses |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Speedy11@aol.com
To all who responded regarding using automotive plugs with EI systems - Thank
You.
The responses were detailed and provided good data points.
Stan Sutterfield
Message 18
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" <terry@tcwatson.com>
With my Airflow Performance fuel injection system and I think most other
Lycomming type engines, the electric fuel pump is a boost pump, to only be
used during times when a loss of the mechanical fuel pump would be critical,
such as takeoff and landing and maybe switching tanks. An indicator light
serves as a reminder to turn it off after takeoff, or at least that's why I
am installing a light that indicates it is operating, or more accurately,
has power to it. The man with the rotary turbo probably relies on the
electric pump to provide fuel pressure all the time, so a fuel PRESSURE
warning light makes sense to him. If I were to install a fuel pressure
warning light, it would tell me it the main fuel pump failed and the boost
pump is off, but it wouldn't remind me to turn off the boost pump after
switching tanks.
I still like the idea of an automatic boost pump switch that turns the boost
pump and a warning light on when the fuel pressure drops.
Terry
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BTomm <fvalarm@rapidnet.net>
... A "fuel pump is operating" lamp should be
controlled by a pressure switch indicating that the fuel pump is producing
correct output pressure and volume. This scenario is not required for an
Aux pump in my opinion.
Bevan
RV7A fuse
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: manual battery contactor |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Harley <harley@agelesswings.com>
Hi, Bob...
Voltage is the DIFFERENCE of potential between the points being
measured. If you want to compare it to water, as you have, then it is
similar to the water pressure available when a valve is closed and no
water is flowing. The pressure is there, but the valve (switch) prevents
it from going anywhere. So, electrically, if two points are not
connected, as through an open switch, the potential difference is the
greatest because one side has current available, while the other doesn't.
In your example, one point is +13.8 volts, and with the switch open,
the other point is 0...the difference is 13.8 volts. When the switch is
closed, like opening the water valve, current (water) can now flow, and
the voltage on both points is the same...so a voltage reading between
those two points will be 0. Just like when the water valve is open, and
the water is flowing, the water pressure drops off to almost 0.
If a "resistor" is placed in the circuit, then it "Resists" some of the
flow. That amount is determined by the "size" (or ohms value) of the
resistor. So there will be a potential difference if the voltage
measurement is taken across the resistor. This measurement across the
resistor is called voltage drop.
If you string out a bunch of resistors in a circuit where the voltage
(measured from one end of the circuit to the other) remains constant,
then the voltage drop across each resistor, totaled MUST equal the
voltage of the entire circuit. No one has increased the available
current (voltage) so if it is flowing, the total in the circuit must be
the sum total across all the resistances.
I strongly suggest you borrow a very basic book on electronics from the
library...as you go through Bob's books, you are going to find a lot
more questions like this...and they just get tougher to explain! The
water analogy I used above breaks down very quickly when you get just a
little deeper into it...induction for example...the presence of current
induced in a nearby wire, with no connection between them. Can't do
that with water!
Or, just take Bob's word for it, and don't try to understand the
details...just follow his instructions...as you work with it, you'll
understand it better than if you are just trying to read about it.
Harley Dixon
Bob Miller wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bob Miller" <drmiller@cvillepsychology.net>
>
>Many thanks to Bob Nuckolls for the AeroElectric Connection. I suspect he has
saved many a pilot's buns, and I'm definitely planning on having mine be among
them!
>
>
>I do have a couple questions that I haven't been able to find the answers to.
Two of them are very basic and regard electron flow, and the other regards the
possibility of a manually operated battery contactor.
>
>
>Could someone help me with a couple questions on some of the material in the book?
Understanding the first two questions below would help me better understand
some of the other principles in the book, which I have read pretty thoroughly.
>
>
>Question 1: On page 1-2 of the Connection it states that when resistors are
connected in series, the sum of the voltage drops across each resistor equals
the total voltage applied to the string. I'm interpreting that to mean that there
is zero pressure downstream of the last resistor in line but, if this were
true, if you only had one resistor there would be zero voltage available for
a downstream device. I've seen similar statements in other books, but just
cannot figure it out. What simple fact am I missing?
>
>
>Question 2: On page1-3 (I told you these were basic questions!) in the top drawing
of Figure 1-4 it shows 13.8 volts of pressure in the wire between the +battery
terminal and the landing light when the switch is open. I don't understand
how could pressure go through an open switch..? But more fundamentally,
if electrons flow from negative to positive, wouldn't the pressure be between
the negative terminal (or ground wire for the light) and the light? Maybe it
is that the positive terminal exerts sort of a "sucking" type pressure on electrons?
(But then wouldn't it be called the negative terminal :-) ?)
>
>
>Question 3: Those of us installing Jabiru engines only get 10amps "continuous"
out of the alternator, and are reluctant to spend one of those on a battery contactor.
Might it be possible to fabricate a manually operated contactor, perhaps
operated by a standard push-pull cable from the cockpit? If so, could anyone
suggest some ideas?
>
>
>BTW, given that Jabirus are becoming increasingly popular, this might be an item
people would purchase if available.
>
>
>Many thanks,
>
>
>Bob Miller
>
>
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: sanity check |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" <Larry@BowenAero.com>
I have a LED for my FP, as the switch is on the Infinity stick, I need the
light to determine switch position. I used terminal strips behind the
panel to wire most things, including this. The FP terminal has two pos
(or neg, don't remember) wires tied to it. One for the FP, the other for
the FP LED. Granted the FP could fail and the LED would still light, or
vise-versa....so I remind myself the light is a "FP switch position"
light, not a "the FP is on and functioning properly" light. I didn't use
a relay for anything FP related.
-
Larry Bowen, RV-8 FAB
Larry@BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
Dan Checkoway said:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway"
> <dan@rvproject.com>
>
> You're preaching to the choir. 8-)
>
> You guys might be missing my point...which is that the guy *already* has
> the
> light in his panel and definitely wants to use it. I was just trying to
> come up with a safe way to wire it. My recommendation was to use a relay
> instead of his way of just wiring it in parallel with the pump itself.
> That's what I want to know if I'm nuts about... ;-)
>
> do not archive
> )_( Dan
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Slade" <sladerj@bellsouth.net>
> To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: sanity check
>
>
>> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Slade"
> <sladerj@bellsouth.net>
>>
>> > I need a sanity check. Yesterday I was helping a builder with a few
> odds
>> > and ends, and the topic of a "fuel pump is operating" lamp came up.
>> He
>> > showed me his plan for wiring it, which was simply to wire the lamp in
>> > parallel with the fuel pump...same fuse, shared circuit....
>>
>> Dan,
>> I don't see how the "pump operating" light would be anything more than
>> annoying light on the panel during night flights. Either way you suggest
>> wiring it it doesnt tell you much you dont already know. Warning lights
> are
>> to tell you when something IS NOT operating. He'll know when the fuel
>> pump
>> isn't operating by the sweat that builds up when the big fan stops. :)
>>
>> Seriously - if he really wants a "pump operating" light, I'd say it
>> should
>> be dependant on fuel flow, not power to the pump. A low fuel pressure
>> warning, perhaps.
>> My 2c
>> John Slade
>> Cozy IV Rotary turbo, flying
>> http://kgarden.com/cozy
>>
>>
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Bench test power supply opportunity |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Richard Tasker <retasker@optonline.net>
If you look at his ebay store he also has more of these listed at $17.99
as well as $24.50...
Dick Tasker
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
>There's a bunch of these critters on Ebay for $25.00 each
>free shipping or lower prices + $7 shipping. Either way
>they're a good deal.
>
>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3172234463
>
>
>Listing says they'll adjust up to 13.8 volts. This makes them
>suited to ground testing your panel mounted goodies or bench
>testing . . . this device is rated for up to 13 amps load. I
>just picked up a couple but this supplier seems to have quite
>a few . . .
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> -----------------------------------------
> ( Experience and common sense cannot be )
> ( replaced with policy and procedures. )
> ( R. L. Nuckolls III )
> -----------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: sanity check |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jim Oke <wjoke@shaw.ca>
Dan;
The really keen way to do this would be to have a suitable pressure switch
plumbed into the fuel line down stream of the electric pump but before the
engine driven pump. It should be chosen or set so the rise in pressure
closes the switch and turns on the light. The "fuel pressure" light then
would have some useful purpose - to show the pump is active and producing
the intended pressure. Obviously it would or should go on and off as the
pump is switched on and off. So someday if the pump is switched ON and the
light stays OFF, that is a warning there is some sort of pump failure at
hand and it might be prudent to modify the flight profile or do a
precautionary landing, etc.
This is big airplane stuff and, IMHO, overkill for an RV-class airplane. As
others have said, the usual Facet pump produces enough noise to tell you if
it is getting power and a fuel pressure gauge at the carb tells you if it is
producing pressure.
Jim Oke
WPg., MB
RV-3, RV-6A
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: sanity check
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway"
<dan@rvproject.com>
>
> You're preaching to the choir. 8-)
>
> You guys might be missing my point...which is that the guy *already* has
the
> light in his panel and definitely wants to use it. I was just trying to
> come up with a safe way to wire it. My recommendation was to use a relay
> instead of his way of just wiring it in parallel with the pump itself.
> That's what I want to know if I'm nuts about... ;-)
>
> do not archive
> )_( Dan
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Slade" <sladerj@bellsouth.net>
> To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: sanity check
>
>
> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Slade"
> <sladerj@bellsouth.net>
> >
> > > I need a sanity check. Yesterday I was helping a builder with a few
> odds
> > > and ends, and the topic of a "fuel pump is operating" lamp came up.
He
> > > showed me his plan for wiring it, which was simply to wire the lamp in
> > > parallel with the fuel pump...same fuse, shared circuit....
> >
> > Dan,
> > I don't see how the "pump operating" light would be anything more than
> > annoying light on the panel during night flights. Either way you suggest
> > wiring it it doesnt tell you much you dont already know. Warning lights
> are
> > to tell you when something IS NOT operating. He'll know when the fuel
pump
> > isn't operating by the sweat that builds up when the big fan stops. :)
> >
> > Seriously - if he really wants a "pump operating" light, I'd say it
should
> > be dependant on fuel flow, not power to the pump. A low fuel pressure
> > warning, perhaps.
> > My 2c
> > John Slade
> > Cozy IV Rotary turbo, flying
> > http://kgarden.com/cozy
> >
> >
>
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: manual battery contactor |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chad Robinson <crobinson@rfgonline.com>
> Question 1: On page 1-2 of the Connection it states that when resistors
> are connected in series, the sum of the voltage drops across each resistor
> equals the total voltage applied to the string. I'm interpreting that to
> mean that there is zero pressure downstream of the last resistor in line
> but, if this were true, if you only had one resistor there would be zero
> voltage available for a downstream device. I've seen similar statements
> in other books, but just cannot figure it out. What simple fact am I
> missing?
You're missing the downstream device itself - it's a resistor, too. (Well,
most devices can be approximated down to this, anyway.) Assume a simple case -
two resistors and a lamp. That's really three resistors; the lamp is one as
well. If you remove one resistor, from the chain now you just have two
(resistor plus lamp), not one (just a resistor).
> Question 2: On page1-3 (I told you these were basic questions!) in the top
> drawing of Figure 1-4 it shows 13.8 volts of pressure in the wire between
> the +battery terminal and the landing light when the switch is open. I
> don't understand how could pressure go through an open switch..? But more
> fundamentally, if electrons flow from negative to positive, wouldn't the
> pressure be between the negative terminal (or ground wire for the light)
> and the light? Maybe it is that the positive terminal exerts sort of a
> "sucking" type pressure on electrons? (But then wouldn't it be called the
> negative terminal :-) ?)
You're touching on a common confusion in electrical design. If you talk to a
physicist s/he will tell you that current flows from negative (electron
source) to positive (electron seeking). If you talk to an electrical engineer
s/he'll tell you that the positive terminal is the "supply." They're really
both saying the same thing but in different ways but it can be confusing when
you try to think of it in your head.
The negative terminal is called that because electrons are negatively charged,
and it has the excess. The positive terminal lacks electrons, and seeks them.
Electrons always flow from regions with an excess to regions that have too
few. When you do your wiring, think of the positive terminal as the "hot"
side. The "sucking" analogy is fairly accurate, but it's the positive terminal
that sucks. =)
I don't have the book so Bob should answer the Figure 1-4 portion.
> Question 3: Those of us installing Jabiru engines only get 10amps
> "continuous" out of the alternator, and are reluctant to spend one of those
> on a battery contactor. Might it be possible to fabricate a manually
> operated contactor, perhaps operated by a standard push-pull cable from the
> cockpit? If so, could anyone suggest some ideas?
Sure. Check out www.onlinemarine.com and go to Electrical->Battery Isolators
and Switches. Both Guest and Blue Sea Systems make these switches, and the
Blue Sea devices have the added advantage of an alternator field disconnect so
your alternator doesn't go nuts if you switch off while the engine is still
running. There are smaller versions available somewhere that I can't remember
off the top of my head that would be more suitable to a push-pull cable. Or
just take a look at Bob's endurance bus design, which includes an alternate
feed for key devices during alternator-out events.
Regards,
Chad
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: manual battery contactor |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" <mprather@spro.net>
Understanding electronics is something done best with a combination of
experience. Reading books and going to lectures provides part of the
picture, but there is no substitute for lab work.
I recommend getting a multimeter, a breadboard few resistors, a couple
of switches, a dc lamp, a couple of batteries, some wire, and maybe an
LED. Then try hooking some of these components together into some
circuits. Make the lamp light, and be able to control it with the
circuit. Use
a resistor to dim the light. Figure out how to make an LED produce light.
Use the multimeter to measure the Voltage across and the current through
each of the components. Using basic "Voltage = Current times Resistance,"
predict and explain what you measure.
Here's a useable breadboard. While solid, single strand wire isn't good
in airplanes, it is fine in prototyping...
http://www.outpost.com/product/3522224/
Regards,
Matt-
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bob Miller"
> <drmiller@cvillepsychology.net>
>
> Many thanks to Bob Nuckolls for the AeroElectric Connection. I suspect
> he has saved many a pilot's buns, and I'm definitely planning on having
> mine be among them!
>
>
> I do have a couple questions that I haven't been able to find the
> answers to. Two of them are very basic and regard electron flow, and
> the other regards the possibility of a manually operated battery
> contactor.
>
>
> Could someone help me with a couple questions on some of the material in
> the book? Understanding the first two questions below would help me
> better understand some of the other principles in the book, which I have
snip
Message 25
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|
| Subject: | electric trim switches |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Troy Scott" <tscott1217@bellsouth.net>
Gentlemen,
I'd like some input WRT an idea. If both control sticks have (ON) OFF (ON)
trim control switches, and there is no "take control" switch to authorize
one or the other, then it's possible to have a grand short circuit if one
pilot keys UP while the other keys DOWN...., UNLESS there is a clever
circuit involved that disallows the motor from being asked to run in both
directions at once. If pilot #1 keys UP first, pilot #2 could key DOWN but
it would have NO EFFECT until pilot #1 releases his switch. Either switch
would "lock out" the other, depending on who activates the trim first. I
think I'd like to incorporate this idea if the circuit is SIMPLE, but I
don't like the idea of adding a lot of complexity and potential for failure.
Thoughts??
Regards,
Troy Scott
tscott1217@bellsouth.net
Glasair Super IISRG, N360TS
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: sanity check |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: echristley@nc.rr.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Checkoway <dan@rvproject.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: sanity check
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan
Checkoway"
> <dan@rvproject.com>
> You're preaching to the choir. 8-)
>
> You guys might be missing my point...which is that
the guy
> *already* has the
> light in his panel and definitely wants to use it.
I was just
> trying to
> come up with a safe way to wire it. My
recommendation was to use a
> relayinstead of his way of just wiring it in
parallel with the pump
> itself.That's what I want to know if I'm nuts
about... ;-)
>
> do not archive
> )_( Dan
>
If it is a filament light, you gotta ask yourself
what is the failure mode. Other than physical
failures I'd say it is safe. It can't short out, it
already is. The worst that could happen is for the
light to burn out and he runs the pump constantly.
I'm with you that being in the practice of looking
at the switch is a better option, but a relay would
add a lot of connections and and an
electromechanical part that will add several more
failure modes.
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: sanity check |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: klehman@albedo.net
Does AFP sell more than one kind of injection system? My understanding
of the ones I've seen is that the engine is not going to run without the
electric pump running... Their web site makes me think that as well.
In regards to the fuel pump on light discussion, I would tend to think
that a relay is much more likely to short out than a light bulb.
Ken
Terry Watson wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" <terry@tcwatson.com>
>
> With my Airflow Performance fuel injection system and I think most other
> Lycomming type engines, the electric fuel pump is a boost pump, to only be
> used during times when a loss of the mechanical fuel pump would be critical,
> such as takeoff and landing and maybe switching tanks.
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: sanity check |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
On my set up the elect fuel pump is only used for priming and back up fuel
pump. The engine runs off the mechanical pump after being primed by the
elect pump. In some installations there is no mechanical fuel pump and 2
elect pumps. One primary and the other back up.
At 04:22 PM 4/23/04 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: klehman@albedo.net
>
>Does AFP sell more than one kind of injection system? My understanding
>of the ones I've seen is that the engine is not going to run without the
>electric pump running... Their web site makes me think that as well.
>
>In regards to the fuel pump on light discussion, I would tend to think
>that a relay is much more likely to short out than a light bulb.
>
>Ken
>
>Terry Watson wrote:
>> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" <terry@tcwatson.com>
>>
>> With my Airflow Performance fuel injection system and I think most other
>> Lycomming type engines, the electric fuel pump is a boost pump, to only be
>> used during times when a loss of the mechanical fuel pump would be critical,
>> such as takeoff and landing and maybe switching tanks.
>
>
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
Message 29
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| Subject: | ACK E01 ELT antenna wire |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Amit Dagan" <amitdagan@hotmail.com>
My ELT (ACK Technologies E-01) came with a length of coax cable for the whip
antenna.
Question: Can I shorten this cable and crimp on a new BNC connector if the
cable is far too long for my application, or will this cause some problems?
Thanks.
Amit Dagan
RV-7.
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: sanity check |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" <lhelming@sigecom.net>
A safe to wire it should be with a DPDT switch. The light has its own fuse,
the FP its own. Separate wires same switch. As another said, the light
will be an indicator of the switch's position. Might be nice for Tandems if
both co-pilot has the switch on the stick. FWIW, I have a light like this
for my Sandia AIM function so I know when it is set. I use a push on/off
button switch with it which I had handy so I can't glance at the switch
position to see if it is on. Seemed like a good idea at the time.
Indiana Larry, RV7 TipUp "SunSeeker"
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: sanity check
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway"
<dan@rvproject.com>
>
> You're preaching to the choir. 8-)
>
> You guys might be missing my point...which is that the guy *already* has
the
> light in his panel and definitely wants to use it. I was just trying to
> come up with a safe way to wire it. My recommendation was to use a relay
> instead of his way of just wiring it in parallel with the pump itself.
> That's what I want to know if I'm nuts about... ;-)
>
> do not archive
> )_( Dan
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Slade" <sladerj@bellsouth.net>
> To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: sanity check
>
>
> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Slade"
> <sladerj@bellsouth.net>
> >
> > > I need a sanity check. Yesterday I was helping a builder with a few
> odds
> > > and ends, and the topic of a "fuel pump is operating" lamp came up.
He
> > > showed me his plan for wiring it, which was simply to wire the lamp in
> > > parallel with the fuel pump...same fuse, shared circuit....
> >
> > Dan,
> > I don't see how the "pump operating" light would be anything more than
> > annoying light on the panel during night flights. Either way you suggest
> > wiring it it doesnt tell you much you dont already know. Warning lights
> are
> > to tell you when something IS NOT operating. He'll know when the fuel
pump
> > isn't operating by the sweat that builds up when the big fan stops. :)
> >
> > Seriously - if he really wants a "pump operating" light, I'd say it
should
> > be dependant on fuel flow, not power to the pump. A low fuel pressure
> > warning, perhaps.
> > My 2c
> > John Slade
> > Cozy IV Rotary turbo, flying
> > http://kgarden.com/cozy
> >
> >
>
>
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Thanks for Responses |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" <lhelming@sigecom.net>
So, please share with everyone what you think is the better solution/choice
with all the info you got. Don't worry about what your decision is. You
will not change too many opinions one way or the other. I for one know I'd
like to know your opinion based on the info you received. I'm undecided on
two things: I like the idea of lower cost plugs too. I just am a bit
concerned that they may have performance problems ( someone said it was
4% ).
Indiana Larry, RV7 TipUp "SunSeeker"
----- Original Message -----
From: <Speedy11@aol.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Thanks for Responses
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Speedy11@aol.com
>
> To all who responded regarding using automotive plugs with EI systems -
Thank
> You.
>
> The responses were detailed and provided good data points.
>
> Stan Sutterfield
>
>
Message 32
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Greg Young" <gyoung@cs-sol.com>
Part of your confusion may be that injection systems, AFP included, uses
higher fuel pressure than carbs, e.g. ~12-15 psi. The typical Lycoming
IO-xxx setup uses a high pressure engine driven fuel pump (about the same $$
as low pressure pump) with a high-$$ electric aux/boost pump. AFP's boost
pump is much cheaper than Weldon or other certified pumps.
Regards,
Greg Young - Houston (DWH)
RV-6 N6GY ...project Phoenix
Navion N5221K - just an XXL RV-6A
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: klehman@albedo.net
>
> Does AFP sell more than one kind of injection system? My
> understanding
> of the ones I've seen is that the engine is not going to run
> without the
> electric pump running... Their web site makes me think that as well.
>
> In regards to the fuel pump on light discussion, I would tend
> to think
> that a relay is much more likely to short out than a light bulb.
>
> Ken
>
Message 33
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| Subject: | Bench test power supply opportunity |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ron Triano" <rondefly@rtriano.com>
Dick, check into it further, the cheaper one is with out shipping.
Ron Triano
http://bld01.ipowerweb.com/contentmanagement/websites/rtrianoc/page2.html
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard
Tasker
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Bench test power supply opportunity
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Richard Tasker
<retasker@optonline.net>
If you look at his ebay store he also has more of these listed at $17.99
as well as $24.50...
Dick Tasker
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
>There's a bunch of these critters on Ebay for $25.00 each
>free shipping or lower prices + $7 shipping. Either way
>they're a good deal.
>
>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3172234463
>
>
>Listing says they'll adjust up to 13.8 volts. This makes them
>suited to ground testing your panel mounted goodies or bench
>testing . . . this device is rated for up to 13 amps load. I
>just picked up a couple but this supplier seems to have quite
>a few . . .
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> -----------------------------------------
> ( Experience and common sense cannot be )
> ( replaced with policy and procedures. )
> ( R. L. Nuckolls III )
> -----------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: ACK E01 ELT antenna wire |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" <mprather@spro.net>
No problem shortening the coax antenna lead.
Regards,
Matt-
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Amit Dagan"
> <amitdagan@hotmail.com>
>
> My ELT (ACK Technologies E-01) came with a length of coax cable for the
> whip antenna.
> Question: Can I shorten this cable and crimp on a new BNC connector if
> the cable is far too long for my application, or will this cause some
> problems? Thanks.
> Amit Dagan
> RV-7.
>
>
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: Automotive Spark Plugs |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: czechsix@juno.com
Bob,
I think you misread my post....I was talking about autmotive spark plugs, not autogas.
I know there's lots of autofuel STC's out there, but hadn't heard of
anyone using automotive spark plugs in a Lycoming with Magneto ignition.
--Mark Navratil
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
RV-8A N2D finishing...
Re: AeroElectric-List: Automotive Spark Plugs
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
In a message dated 4/22/04 1:12:16 PM Central Daylight Time,
czechsix@juno.com writes:
As a side note, I know a guy with an O-320 powered Long EZ who runs auto
plugs with magnetos. Never heard of anyone else doing this, but he claims they
work fine for him....
Good Evening Mark,
For What It Is Worth --- There are many 320 Lycomings that have
been flying for years using autogas and magnetos in certificated
airplanes. Auto gas approvals abound for that engine.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: electric trim switches |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss <chaskuss@bellsouth.net>
Troy,
The 3 pole double throw and 4 pole double throw switches I referred to making
a group purchase on yesterday are for exactly the purpose you mention. They are
to control which stick grip has "live" buttons. These switches also disable
the buttons on the grip not selected. If you have AutoCAD or another program that
reads DWG files, I can email you a copy of my electric flap circuit. Seeing
this circuit should aid in understanding how these switches are used.
Charlie Kuss
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Troy Scott" <tscott1217@bellsouth.net>
>
>Gentlemen,
>
>I'd like some input WRT an idea. If both control sticks have (ON) OFF (ON)
>trim control switches, and there is no "take control" switch to authorize
>one or the other, then it's possible to have a grand short circuit if one
>pilot keys UP while the other keys DOWN...., UNLESS there is a clever
>circuit involved that disallows the motor from being asked to run in both
>directions at once. If pilot #1 keys UP first, pilot #2 could key DOWN but
>it would have NO EFFECT until pilot #1 releases his switch. Either switch
>would "lock out" the other, depending on who activates the trim first. I
>think I'd like to incorporate this idea if the circuit is SIMPLE, but I
>don't like the idea of adding a lot of complexity and potential for failure.
>Thoughts??
>
>Regards,
>Troy Scott
>tscott1217@bellsouth.net
>Glasair Super IISRG, N360TS
>
>
Message 37
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| Subject: | electric trim switches |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jeffrey W. Skiba" <jskiba@icosa.net>
Troy,
Good thought, I would like to add one thing to possibly think about (you
might have already) in your example say instead,
Co-pilot switch FAILS in the down trim position first and you try to command
up trim latter, How do you go about correcting the problem aka with a switch
priority you can now disable the fault and control trim normally again.
Just something to think about
Jeff.
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Troy Scott"
--> <tscott1217@bellsouth.net>
Gentlemen,
I'd like some input WRT an idea. If both control sticks have (ON) OFF (ON)
trim control switches, and there is no "take control" switch to authorize
one or the other, then it's possible to have a grand short circuit if one
pilot keys UP while the other keys DOWN...., UNLESS there is a clever
circuit involved that disallows the motor from being asked to run in both
directions at once. If pilot #1 keys UP first, pilot #2 could key DOWN but
it would have NO EFFECT until pilot #1 releases his switch. Either switch
would "lock out" the other, depending on who activates the trim first. I
think I'd like to incorporate this idea if the circuit is SIMPLE, but I
don't like the idea of adding a lot of complexity and potential for failure.
Thoughts??
Regards,
Troy Scott
tscott1217@bellsouth.net
Glasair Super IISRG, N360TS
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: Automotive Spark Plugs |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
In a message dated 4/23/04 5:13:53 PM Central Daylight Time,
czechsix@juno.com writes:
Bob,
I think you misread my post....I was talking about autmotive spark plugs, not
autogas. I know there's lots of autofuel STC's out there, but hadn't heard
of anyone using automotive spark plugs in a Lycoming with Magneto ignition.
--Mark Navratil
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
RV-8A N2D finishing...
Good Evening Mark,
You are correct. It is not only my thinking that is suffering from
senility, my reading is doing the same!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
Message 39
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|
| Subject: | ACK E01 ELT antenna wire |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "glong2" <glong2@netzero.net>
Amit:
Here is a copy of a post about the ELT for the Lancair I am assembling. I
had the same proble with following the instructions from ACK on ground
planes and antenna separation.
Bob and all others who responded to the ELT antenna questions
Following Gregg Tanners lead, I called Bob Archer because all my other
antennas are from Archer.
Here is what he had to say:
1. Install two parallel 18" strips of conductive material (copper tape,
wire, coat hangers, etc.) on the ceiling parallel to the longitudinal axis.
This will not affect the VOR antenna if they are separated by a small
distance (assuming about a foot).
2. Solder or connect the coax in the center of the strips, shield to one
strip, center to the other.
3. Run coax to ELT.
His claim is this antenna, which is cross polarized, is a factor of two
better than most certified airplane ELT antennas. He says a satellite will
pick up the signal from the antenna regardless of the final resting position
of the aircraft.
Eugene Long
Lancair Super ES
glong2@netzero.net
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Amit
Dagan
Subject: AeroElectric-List: ACK E01 ELT antenna wire
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Amit Dagan"
<amitdagan@hotmail.com>
My ELT (ACK Technologies E-01) came with a length of coax cable for the whip
antenna.
Question: Can I shorten this cable and crimp on a new BNC connector if the
cable is far too long for my application, or will this cause some problems?
Thanks.
Amit Dagan
RV-7.
Message 40
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|
| Subject: | Re: electric trim switches |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Schroeder <jschroeder@perigee.net>
Charlie -
I have AutoCAD 200LT and would love to get a file of the flap circuitry.
Many hanks,
John
> If you have > AutoCAD or another program that reads DWG files, I can
> email you a copy of my electric flap circuit. Seeing this circuit should
> aid in understanding how these switches are used.
> Charlie Kuss
Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: electric trim switches |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss <chaskuss@bellsouth.net>
John
Here you go. This switch allows pilot, copilot or OFF for the flap circuit. The
power must be switched because there is a possibility of the WHITE or WHITE/BLUE
wires (between the relays and the switch) shorting to ground. If this happens,
a flap runaway would result. If the power was not switched, choosing the
OFF position would not work to stop the runaway. A 4 pole version of this switch
is used to do the same thing on a 2 axis electric trim system. I'm still
finalizing the schematic for that circuit.
Charlie
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Schroeder <jschroeder@perigee.net>
>
>Charlie -
>
>I have AutoCAD 200LT and would love to get a file of the flap circuitry.
>
>Many hanks,
>
>John
>
>
>> If you have > AutoCAD or another program that reads DWG files, I can
>> email you a copy of my electric flap circuit. Seeing this circuit should
>> aid in understanding how these switches are used.
>> Charlie Kuss
>
>
Message 42
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|
| Subject: | electric trim switches |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
Can I get a copy?
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Charlie Kuss
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: electric trim switches
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss
<chaskuss@bellsouth.net>
John
Here you go. This switch allows pilot, copilot or OFF for the flap
circuit. The power must be switched because there is a possibility of
the WHITE or WHITE/BLUE wires (between the relays and the switch)
shorting to ground. If this happens, a flap runaway would result. If
the power was not switched, choosing the OFF position would not work to
stop the runaway. A 4 pole version of this switch is used to do the same
thing on a 2 axis electric trim system. I'm still finalizing the
schematic for that circuit.
Charlie
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Schroeder
<jschroeder@perigee.net>
>
>Charlie -
>
>I have AutoCAD 200LT and would love to get a file of the flap
circuitry.
>
>Many hanks,
>
>John
>
>
>> If you have > AutoCAD or another program that reads DWG files, I can
>> email you a copy of my electric flap circuit. Seeing this circuit
should
>> aid in understanding how these switches are used.
>> Charlie Kuss
>
>
==
==
==
==
Message 43
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| Subject: | Re: manual battery contactor |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 01:13 PM 4/23/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bob Miller"
><drmiller@cvillepsychology.net>
>
>Many thanks to Bob Nuckolls for the AeroElectric Connection. I suspect he
>has saved many a pilot's buns, and I'm definitely planning on having mine
>be among them!
>
>
>I do have a couple questions that I haven't been able to find the answers
>to. Two of them are very basic and regard electron flow, and the other
>regards the possibility of a manually operated battery contactor.
>
>
>Could someone help me with a couple questions on some of the material in
>the book? Understanding the first two questions below would help me better
>understand some of the other principles in the book, which I have read
>pretty thoroughly.
>
>
>Question 1: On page 1-2 of the Connection it states that when resistors
>are connected in series, the sum of the voltage drops across each resistor
>equals the total voltage applied to the string. I'm interpreting that to
>mean that there is zero pressure downstream of the last resistor in line
>but, if this were true, if you only had one resistor there would be zero
>voltage available for a downstream device. I've seen similar statements
>in other books, but just cannot figure it out. What simple fact am I missing?
voltage or "pressure" is distributed around the string of resistors such
that the sum of voltages for each resistor is equal to applied voltage. For
example, in Figure 1-2 if we hooked a 39 volt power supply to the string of
resistors in the right side of the figure, current flowing in the circuit
would be E/R = 39v/13ohms = 3 amps. Figuring the votlage drop across each
resistor (E = I x R) the 1 ohm resistor would drop 3 amps x 1 ohm or 3
volts.
The 2 ohm resistor would drop 3 amps x 2 ohms or 6 volts. The 10 ohm
resistor
would drop 3 amps x 10 ohms or 30 volts. Add up the 3 + 6 + 30 and we get
39 volts. Exactly equal to the applied voltage.
>Question 2: On page1-3 (I told you these were basic questions!) in the
>top drawing of Figure 1-4 it shows 13.8 volts of pressure in the wire
>between the +battery terminal and the landing light when the switch is
>open. I don't understand how could pressure go through an open switch..?
How does pressure go through a closed valve? It doesn't. Pressure is the
POTENTIAL to do work. You can have an air bottle pumped up to 120 psi or
a battery charged to 12 volts. Either one can sit in a static state without
an exchange of energy. Close the switch (or open a valve) and the POTENTIAL
energy puts motion on electrons (or air molecules). The formerly static
condition is now dynamic . . . stuff is moving. You will not that in the
upper half of figure 1-4, the battery shows 13.8 but the lamp shows zero
volts. relating this back to the resistor string example above, applied
voltage is 13.8 and resistance across the open switch is infinite . . . so
ALL potential energy appears across the switch. But because there is no
current flow, the system is still static. Nothing is moving. No energy
leaves the battery. Zero current in wires yields zero voltage drop. Zero
current across the lamp yields zero voltage drop.
When you close the switch, current flows and we see small voltage drops
in properly sized switch and wires with the majority of voltage dropped
across the lamp. Again, we've violated none of Kirchoff's laws. In every
case, total voltage across loads is equal to total voltage from source.
In first case current everywhere in circuit is zero and no energy is
changing places. In second case, current is some finite value (11.54 amps),
sum of voltages in loads add up to total of voltage applied by battery,
current everywhere in circuit is 11.54 amps and energy is moving from
battery through wires to generate a little heat and the lamp's filament
to generate a lot of heat (and light).
Download the CD from my website at
http://www.aeroelectric.com/CD/AEC8_0.zip
Unzip onto a CD and then go to the directory called Navy Electronics Course
See pages 3-1 through 3-17 of Module01.pdf for multiple, illustrated
examples
of these concepts.
>Question 3: Those of us installing Jabiru engines only get 10amps
>"continuous" out of the alternator, and are reluctant to spend one of
>those on a battery contactor. Might it be possible to fabricate a
>manually operated contactor, perhaps operated by a standard push-pull
>cable from the cockpit? If so, could anyone suggest some ideas?
It's been done a lot and discussed several times on the list.
There are any number of manual battery switches suited to
the control of cranking loads. See automotive speed shops
an marine suppliers for battery switches.
Check out Cole-Hersee battery switches at:
http://www.colehersee.com/pdf/master_cat/t_battery.PDF
Bob . . .
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