Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:59 AM - Re: Re: Trimmers etc. (Brian Lloyd)
2. 03:03 AM - Re: Avionics Cooling fans - blowers (Brian Lloyd)
3. 06:58 AM - KMA-20 Pinout ? (Pascal Gosselin)
4. 07:04 AM - Re: Re: Trimmers etc. (Garrison Sem)
5. 07:59 AM - Re: Coax placement (CardinalNSB@aol.com)
6. 08:27 AM - Re: KMA-20 Pinout ? (Sean Spencer)
7. 08:32 AM - Static Source (F1Rocket@comcast.net)
8. 08:39 AM - Re: Re: Trimmers etc. (Brian Lloyd)
9. 09:26 AM - Re: Re: Trimmers etc. (Jim Stone)
10. 10:33 AM - Re: Static Source (Brian Lloyd)
11. 10:52 AM - Re: Static Source (Sean Spencer)
12. 11:17 AM - Re: Static Source (Chad Robinson)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Trimmers etc. |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
Fiveonepw@aol.com wrote:
> 3) How do you KNOW there is a trim runaway????
Uh, airplane pitches, rolls, or yaws in an undesired direction and it keeps getting
worse.
> You might only feel something
> is really amiss. Or maybe you could figure it out but John Denver might not.
Oh, you will know. And it will scare the s--t out of you when it happens.
> FWIW- if an uncommanded out-of-trim condition manifests itself (gee, why am I
> pointed at the ground?!) or any other odd situation grabs my attention while
> life is good, my laser guided finger finds the Master switch pronto- damn,
> didn't need at those distractions anyway-
This does not work for IFR flight using a glass attitude indicator. Dark clouds
and a dark panel do the anal sphincter no good.
It is for this reason that I am quite wary of an all-power trim system without
mechanical backup. A servo with a friction clutch driving a standard mechanical
trim system strikes me as a good balance. An electric servo embedded in the
horizontal stab as the only way to control pitch trim leaves a cold feeling
in the pit of my stomach when I contemplate electric trim failure scenarios.
Aircraft with low stick forces (the RV series comes to mind here) can be flown
without too much difficulty in a serious out-of-trim situation. Aircraft with
heavier stick forces might be unflyable. For this reason you should go try to
fly your airplane with the trim set to both stops to verify you have the strength
and control authority to land the airplane. Do it at altitude first please.
My RV-4 had the original pitch trim lever on the throttle quadrant. It was a bit
touchy but worked OK when you got used to it. It would have been relatively
easy to add electric trim to that yet still be able to overpower a runaway servo.
I know, electrical servos are very reliable but not as reliable as a push-pull
cable in my book.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
http://www.lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 (voice) +1.360.838.9669 (fax)
There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest.
A good citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises.
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Avionics Cooling fans - blowers |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
Jeffrey W. Skiba wrote:
> So other than the TSO paper work what else makes them so expensive??
Liability insurance for the manufacturer in addition to all the work they had to
go through for FAA/PMA/STC approval for permanent installation in certified
aircraft. Add that to the relatively small market and you have the formula for
high cost.
> Is there something special there doing to contain EMI - RFI ??? I mean
> computer cooling fans are dirt cheap, and able to cool electronics parts in
> computers, why can't they be used for Experimental aircraft ?
That is the beauty of experimental. You are free to try what you want. Computer
cooling fans are just fine.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
http://www.lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 (voice) +1.360.838.9669 (fax)
There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest.
A good citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises.
Message 3
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Pascal Gosselin <pascal@aeroteknic.com>
Would really appreciate it someone could email or fax me a KMA-20 pinout.
fax (450) 676-2760
email pascal@aeroteknic.com
-Pascal
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Trimmers etc. |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Garrison Sem" <chasm711@msn.com>
Get a three position switch, on, off, momentary on, wire it "up" normal on,
"center" off, "down" momentary on reverse. If the relay or switch sticks
you can turn it off and "bump" it back to in trim. That should cover most
failure modes. On my airplane the trim system also has one of the few
circutbreakers. If the servo fails its not a big deal in cruise and if the
trim is towards the stop and fails you should just be taking off or landing
so a quick return is easy. I worry more about pine bark beetles.
Paul Schattauer
rv8 #80009 N808PS
50 hrs and getting painted
>From: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
>Reply-To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Trimmers etc.
>Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 10:58:31 +0100
>
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
>
>Fiveonepw@aol.com wrote:
>
> > 3) How do you KNOW there is a trim runaway????
>
>Uh, airplane pitches, rolls, or yaws in an undesired direction and it keeps
>getting worse.
>
> > You might only feel something
> > is really amiss. Or maybe you could figure it out but John Denver might
>not.
>
>Oh, you will know. And it will scare the s--t out of you when it happens.
>
> > FWIW- if an uncommanded out-of-trim condition manifests itself (gee, why
>am I
> > pointed at the ground?!) or any other odd situation grabs my attention
>while
> > life is good, my laser guided finger finds the Master switch pronto-
>damn,
> > didn't need at those distractions anyway-
>
>This does not work for IFR flight using a glass attitude indicator. Dark
>clouds and a dark panel do the anal sphincter no good.
>
>It is for this reason that I am quite wary of an all-power trim system
>without mechanical backup. A servo with a friction clutch driving a
>standard mechanical trim system strikes me as a good balance. An electric
>servo embedded in the horizontal stab as the only way to control pitch trim
>leaves a cold feeling in the pit of my stomach when I contemplate electric
>trim failure scenarios.
>
>Aircraft with low stick forces (the RV series comes to mind here) can be
>flown without too much difficulty in a serious out-of-trim situation.
>Aircraft with heavier stick forces might be unflyable. For this reason you
>should go try to fly your airplane with the trim set to both stops to
>verify you have the strength and control authority to land the airplane.
>Do it at altitude first please.
>
>My RV-4 had the original pitch trim lever on the throttle quadrant. It was
>a bit touchy but worked OK when you got used to it. It would have been
>relatively easy to add electric trim to that yet still be able to overpower
>a runaway servo.
>
>I know, electrical servos are very reliable but not as reliable as a
>push-pull cable in my book.
>
>--
>Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
>brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
>http://www.lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
>+1.340.998.9447 (voice) +1.360.838.9669 (fax)
>
>There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest.
>A good citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises.
>
>
Watch LIVE baseball games on your computer with MLB.TV, included with MSN
Premium!
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Coax placement |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: CardinalNSB@aol.com
Thank you all for the replies, it doesn't appear there are any reasons to
"separate" the coax runs, I will keep the antennas separated as much as possible.
I was planning on rg400 coax, I don't know about LMR400 coax.
Cliff, the Monry 300 traffic detector is highly praised in the Cessna forum,
as I understand the best reception is to put a transponder antenna top and
bottam and run into a splitter instead of using the "portable" antenna. I
haven't bought one yet but since I was in the "antenna" mode of the project I am
going to put them in. I don't remember the type of splitter to use, I did email
to the company and they explained what to use I can get it if you need.
Sincerely, Skip Simpson
Message 6
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Sean Spencer" <sean.s@cnwltd.com>
I just faxed it to that number if you cannot read it let me know and I
will try to scan it and email it.
Sean
509-886-1036 or 2516
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Pascal Gosselin
Subject: AeroElectric-List: KMA-20 Pinout ?
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Pascal Gosselin
<pascal@aeroteknic.com>
Would really appreciate it someone could email or fax me a KMA-20
pinout.
fax (450) 676-2760
email pascal@aeroteknic.com
-Pascal
==
==
==
==
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Message 7
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: F1Rocket@comcast.net
While organizing the "stuff" behind my panel, I realized that I have four instruments
that require connection to the static line; altimeter, EFIS, autopilot,
and blind encoder.
Is it okay to just hook these up in series? Should I tee the line and put two
on one branch and two on the other? Does it make any difference?
Inquiring minds would like to know.
Randy
http://f1rocket.home.comcast.net/
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Pascal Gosselin <pascal@aeroteknic.com>
>
>
> Would really appreciate it someone could email or fax me a KMA-20 pinout.
>
> fax (450) 676-2760
>
> email pascal@aeroteknic.com
>
> -Pascal
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Trimmers etc. |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
Garrison Sem wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Garrison Sem" <chasm711@msn.com>
>
>
> Get a three position switch, on, off, momentary on, wire it "up" normal on,
> "center" off, "down" momentary on reverse. If the relay or switch sticks
> you can turn it off and "bump" it back to in trim. That should cover most
> failure modes. On my airplane the trim system also has one of the few
> circutbreakers. If the servo fails its not a big deal in cruise and if the
> trim is towards the stop and fails you should just be taking off or landing
> so a quick return is easy. I worry more about pine bark beetles.
RVs are less of a problem because of their low stick forces but a fair number of
people will still have trouble landing their airplane with the trim at the stops.
Before you dismiss my concerns so offhandedly I still suggest you try flying your
airplane with the trim at the stops. My experience with trim runaway is that
the first reaction is to freeze and ask what's going on and/or counter the
trim force with the stick and *then* realize your trim servo is running away.
The next momentary lapse will be to realize you have to pull the breaker/fuse/switch.
I bet that more than a couple of seconds will elapse.
Now your airplane is seriously out of trim. And whatever trim setting it is at
is probably going to be something very very different from the trim setting you
normally use on short final for landing. Better to find out at altitude when
you are expecting the problem than when you are on short final and the switch
sticks as you trim nose-up as you set up for flare. Most people have never
had to hold forward pressure on the stick to land. Any other momentary lapse
of attention is asking for a low-altitude stall incident (accident?) in that
situation.
Too many people think about how things work and not enough think about how they
fail.
I also know that few people have had an airplane totally scare the s--t out of
them.
> Paul Schattauer
> rv8 #80009 N808PS
> 50 hrs and getting painted
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
http://www.lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 (voice) +1.360.838.9669 (fax)
There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest.
A good citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Trimmers etc. |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" <jrstone@insightbb.com>
"I worry more about pine bark beetles."
Are they the ones that cause the smoke to escape from electronics?
Jim
Do not archive
>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Garrison Sem" <chasm711@msn.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Trimmers etc.
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Garrison Sem" <chasm711@msn.com>
>
>
> Get a three position switch, on, off, momentary on, wire it "up" normal
on,
> "center" off, "down" momentary on reverse. If the relay or switch sticks
> you can turn it off and "bump" it back to in trim. That should cover most
> failure modes. On my airplane the trim system also has one of the few
> circutbreakers. If the servo fails its not a big deal in cruise and if
the
> trim is towards the stop and fails you should just be taking off or
landing
> so a quick return is easy. > Paul Schattauer
> rv8 #80009 N808PS
> 50 hrs and getting painted
>
> >From: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
> >Reply-To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> >To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Trimmers etc.
> >Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 10:58:31 +0100
> >
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
> >
> >Fiveonepw@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > > 3) How do you KNOW there is a trim runaway????
> >
> >Uh, airplane pitches, rolls, or yaws in an undesired direction and it
keeps
> >getting worse.
> >
> > > You might only feel something
> > > is really amiss. Or maybe you could figure it out but John Denver
might
> >not.
> >
> >Oh, you will know. And it will scare the s--t out of you when it
happens.
> >
> > > FWIW- if an uncommanded out-of-trim condition manifests itself (gee,
why
> >am I
> > > pointed at the ground?!) or any other odd situation grabs my attention
> >while
> > > life is good, my laser guided finger finds the Master switch pronto-
> >damn,
> > > didn't need at those distractions anyway-
> >
> >This does not work for IFR flight using a glass attitude indicator. Dark
> >clouds and a dark panel do the anal sphincter no good.
> >
> >It is for this reason that I am quite wary of an all-power trim system
> >without mechanical backup. A servo with a friction clutch driving a
> >standard mechanical trim system strikes me as a good balance. An
electric
> >servo embedded in the horizontal stab as the only way to control pitch
trim
> >leaves a cold feeling in the pit of my stomach when I contemplate
electric
> >trim failure scenarios.
> >
> >Aircraft with low stick forces (the RV series comes to mind here) can be
> >flown without too much difficulty in a serious out-of-trim situation.
> >Aircraft with heavier stick forces might be unflyable. For this reason
you
> >should go try to fly your airplane with the trim set to both stops to
> >verify you have the strength and control authority to land the airplane.
> >Do it at altitude first please.
> >
> >My RV-4 had the original pitch trim lever on the throttle quadrant. It
was
> >a bit touchy but worked OK when you got used to it. It would have been
> >relatively easy to add electric trim to that yet still be able to
overpower
> >a runaway servo.
> >
> >I know, electrical servos are very reliable but not as reliable as a
> >push-pull cable in my book.
> >
> >--
> >Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
> >brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
> >http://www.lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
> >+1.340.998.9447 (voice) +1.360.838.9669 (fax)
> >
> >There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest.
> >A good citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises.
> >
> >
>
> Watch LIVE baseball games on your computer with MLB.TV, included with MSN
> Premium!
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Static Source |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
F1Rocket@comcast.net wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: F1Rocket@comcast.net
>
> While organizing the "stuff" behind my panel, I realized that I have
> four instruments that require connection to the static line;
> altimeter, EFIS, autopilot, and blind encoder.
>
> Is it okay to just hook these up in series?
Yes.
> Should I tee the line
> and put two on one branch and two on the other?
Not necessary.
> Does it make any difference?
No. The static line has no fluid flow in it so it just needs to ensure that all
the attached devices are at the same pressure. Make sure there are no leaks
and you are good to go.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
http://www.lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 (voice) +1.360.838.9669 (fax)
There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest.
A good citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises.
Message 11
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Sean Spencer" <sean.s@cnwltd.com>
Static air is just that there is no flow through it only pressure
changes it will make no difference in the system how you route your
lines. The system all comes from one point inless you have a alt.
system, the only benift to running them in series or through a manifold
would be organization some times its keeps the area behind the panel
cleaner and easier to make changes later.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
F1Rocket@comcast.net
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Static Source
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: F1Rocket@comcast.net
While organizing the "stuff" behind my panel, I realized that I have
four instruments that require connection to the static line; altimeter,
EFIS, autopilot, and blind encoder.
Is it okay to just hook these up in series? Should I tee the line and
put two on one branch and two on the other? Does it make any
difference?
Inquiring minds would like to know.
Randy
http://f1rocket.home.comcast.net/
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Pascal Gosselin
<pascal@aeroteknic.com>
>
>
> Would really appreciate it someone could email or fax me a KMA-20
pinout.
>
> fax (450) 676-2760
>
> email pascal@aeroteknic.com
>
> -Pascal
>
>
>
>
>
>
==
==
==
==
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Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
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Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Static Source |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chad Robinson <crobinson@rfgonline.com>
Brian Lloyd wrote:
> No. The static line has no fluid flow in it so it just needs to ensure
> that all the attached devices are at the same pressure. Make sure there
> are no leaks and you are good to go.
Another question on the same topic. I've seen people install static
reservoirs, basically small sealed bottles on a T in the static line. I know
these help stabilize instrument displays, especially altitude, especially in
turbulence. But just how much do they help? Are they worth the effort, or is
it really something for certain types of flying, like acrobatic, or hard-IFR?
Regards,
Chad
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