Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:24 AM - Re: Bob - Single Ground question ?? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
2. 07:25 AM - Re: Weight of RG-142 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 07:35 AM - Batteries (Ron Lee)
4. 07:39 AM - Re: Batterys (PGLong@aol.com)
5. 07:51 AM - starting-only battery (Bob Bittner)
6. 08:41 AM - Alarm System (Chuck Jensen)
7. 09:20 AM - Re: starting-only battery (David E. Nelson)
8. 09:27 AM - Re: Alarm System (Dj Merrill)
9. 10:22 AM - Re: Re: Weight of RG-142 (echristley@nc.rr.com)
10. 11:08 AM - Re: Alarm System (Jim Stone)
11. 11:28 AM - RG400 Cables (Jack)
12. 12:39 PM - Instrument light dimming (James Redmon)
13. 01:50 PM - Re: Weight of RG-142 (Eric M. Jones)
14. 02:12 PM - Re: Alarm System (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
15. 02:49 PM - Re: Alarm System (echristley@nc.rr.com)
16. 03:25 PM - Re: Alarm System (Terry Watson)
17. 04:05 PM - Re: Alarm System (Matt Prather)
18. 04:33 PM - Re: Alarm System (Kevin Horton)
19. 04:53 PM - Re: Alarm System (James Redmon)
20. 05:29 PM - Re: Alarm System (Matt Prather)
21. 05:46 PM - Re: Alarm System (Rob Housman)
22. 06:35 PM - Re: Alarm System (Chad Robinson)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Bob - Single Ground question ?? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 07:43 PM 5/16/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Schaefer"
><dschaefer1@kc.rr.com>
>
>Bob ..
>I need your thoughts on a problem I've run up against. I've followed your
>single ground specifications to a tee. All my grounds are run to the single
>B&C ground block.
>
>However, I have an issue. I have a 'pre-made' harness with 8 power and 8
>ground connections all on very short 6" leads coming out of the main cable
>bundle which is about 4' long. All had ring terminals on them. I've cut
>off the power side ring terminals and replaced them with fast-ons to connect
>to my B&C fuse block.
>
>However, I can't decide what to do with the ground side.
>
>#1 Do I cut off the ring terminals and splice longer wires (3') onto the
>leads to get back across the plane to the ground block (3' away)?
>
>#2 Do I put the ring terminals on a single bolt and run one larger wire back
>to the ground block?
>
>#3 Do I put a couple of bolt-studs by the fuse blocks and ground the ring
>terminals to the firewall at the local site?
Give #3 a try. If you don't have an noise problem from the ignition system
(and you probably won't), then there's nothing else to do. If push comes to
shove and you do get some noise, then extend the individual wires to the
ground block.
>Will the splices 'degrade' the ground?
No.
Bob . . .
-----------------------------------------
( Experience and common sense cannot be )
( replaced with policy and procedures. )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
-----------------------------------------
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Weight of RG-142 |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
Eric Jones wrote:
>The wire I have found is 0.24 ounces per foot (35% of the weight of standard
>RG142). Furthermore it has improved characteristics--50% better VSWR, 22%
>lower insertion loss, reduce phase and attenuation drift, etc. Making even
>much lighter cable is quite possible.
>
>The real question is what is losing a pound worth? Here's my rough estimate:
>
>Lets say your aircraft is worth $100,000 and weighs 2,000 pounds. Does this
>mean your airplane is worth $50/pound? Maybe.
>
>A better way to estimate the savings is to look at the total operating cost
>for the life of the aircraft. In this case lets imagine the aircraft will
>go 10,000 hours and costs $75 per hour to fly. Thats $750,000. At the end
>of this time we assume the aircraft will be valueless. So thats
>$750,000/2000 pounds; or $350/pound.
>
>Lets apply the reasonableness test to this: Does $350/pound mean that your
>old tin barf-bird sitting on the ramp is worth $350/pound? No. This figure
>says that the cost of moving a pound of airplane all over the sky for 10,000
>hours (50 years at 200 hours per year for example) is $350. Thats perfectly
>reasonable.
>
>So how much should you pay to avoid the $350/pound expense? If you invested
>$35 compounded annually at 8% return with an inflation rate of 3.1%, you
>would have the $350 in 50 years. So the answer could be $35.
>
>(This simple example does not include the increased value in having an
>airplane that goes a little faster, etc.)
>
>(I would like aeroelectric listers opinions on this!).
>
>So in summary I really don't know. If the cable costs even nearly the same,
>certainly get the better and lighter cable.
>But there are certainly other factors---
>
>A couple weeks ago there was a lister who thought my Super-2-CCA copper clad
>aluminum FatWire (available in two weeks) was too expensive for the weight
>saved. I honestly don't know how best to calculate such a thing. I once flew
>from Van Nuys, Ca to Winslow, Az in a Cessna150 and landed with a pound of
>usable fuel remaining. I would have paid plenty for that pound of fuel
>instead of a extra pound of wire.
>
>Regards,
>Eric M. Jones
Excellent points. I can reinforce those ideas with the following
anecdotes from my own experience. In 1964 when I was a tech writer
for Cessna, a number commonly circulated around the
engineering department suggested "For every pound of emptly weight
added to our airplanes, it will cost the owner(s) of that airplane
$100 to buy the pound of stuff, maintain it, and purchase fuel
to carry it around over the lifetime of the airplane.
When I worked at Lear on the Gates-Piaggio GP-180 program, I asked
my management how much bonus I could offer my suppliers for weight
reduction. That got me a bunch of surprise looks. "Shucks Nuckolls,
beat 'em up for every ounce you can get . . . but why should we
offer a 'bonus'? I told them about my experience at Cessna. They
went off into a huddle and a few days later came back with a figure
of $300. I was skeptical that it was truly that low . . . but it
did mark a milestone in the way my management thought about the
economics of designing, building and operating our products. The
fact that they would offer ANY substantial number in dollars for
weight reduction was pretty cool.
A few days ago, I meet one of RAC's higher engineering management
folks in the Denver airport. He had been visiting kids in the Denver
area and I was coming back from a consulting trip in Idaho. I bemoaned
the state of an important system in one of our products that was
too complicated (astounding parts count), too heavy (about 50-60
pounds), terrible service history (been in the #1 trouble reports
slot on the airplane since day-one), and about 1.5 to 2x more expensive
than more attractive options. I proposed RAC consider of a system
that was at least 50 pounds lighter with a demonstrated
zero faults performance record for many hours on a flight test
aircraft.
I asked him what it was worth for weight reduction on this
airplane? He didn't think long before he came up with the number
of $2,000 per pound. I then described my proposal for replacing
the system and suggested that if we could carve 50 pounds out,
1/3 to 1/2 the cost of hardware, 95% of the installation
labor and offer system with an impeccable track record then
at $100,000 savings to the customer (in ADDITION to good will
generated by eliminating a troublesome system), that changing
over to the new system was essentially "free" . . . yes, there
are some up-front costs on the order of a $million but this
would amortize out VERY quickly.
He didn't argue with me. The discussion went to other topics
but it will be interesting to see what his reaction and support
is when I bring this solution up in an upcoming meeting.
Eric's observations are accurate and right on point. There
are economies of operation, financing, fabrication and
parts selection that can argue most energetically with
each other. During Voyager's design and construction
phases we were told that it takes 5# of fuel to carry
1# of airplane around the world. This means that every
pound of empty weight jacks up take off weight by 6 pounds.
Here the economies of operation held sway and every effort
was made to carve grams out of the airplane sometimes at
great expense on an airplane that had a lifetime of a
few hundred hours! Each of you needs to make
your own decisions as to which economy drives
various decisions for purchase and assembly of parts. I've
oft used the term "cost of ownership" in discussions where
the long term benefit from a larger investment up front
pays off. I've also championed the notion of parts-count-reduction
where the economies of reliability are perceived as most
important. If one can bring multiple benefits to bear
(lower parts count, lower weight, lower cost of ownership)
while improving performance . . . then I'll suggest this
is the very ESSENCE of the OBAM aircraft fabrication philosophy
that will never be fully realized in the certified world.
While OBAM aircraft have published gross weight limits, I
think we can agree that those limits can be pushed under
certain conditions (cool air, c.g. well inside limits,
etc) and certain times when they cannot. It seems that
spending lots of time and dollars on weight reduction for
weight reduction's sake may not be the same overpowering
economy in OBAM aircraft that it is in certified ships.
I'll join Eric in offering the notion that the simple-ideas
underlying the really elegant decision are easily obscured by
a lot of ol' pilot's tales and hangar wisdom. Bringing
questions out to the List is the best place to filter
the various ideas in search of the elegant solution.
Bob . . .
Message 3
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ron Lee" <rlee468@comcast.net>
Since I've started using an automatic battery maintainer, my plane and cycle batteries
have lasted two to three times as long.
Message 4
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: PGLong@aol.com
Stopped down to check on Jon Staudacher's latest aerobatic 2 place he is
building. Wow, what a paint job. Anyway, the battery he spins the IO-540 is a
Power Sonic, Model PS-12180-NB and has an 18 AH rating. He orders them from Allied
Radio. Their website was on the battery so you can check it out yourselves.
www.Power-Sonic.com
Pat Long
PGLong@aol.com
N120PL
RV4 Waiting for the DAR
Bay City, Michigan
3CM
Do Not Archive
Message 5
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| Subject: | starting-only battery |
05/17/2004 09:48:06 AM,
Serialize complete at 05/17/2004 09:48:06 AM
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bob Bittner <rbittner@us.ibm.com>
Probably not too many people on the list with "no" electrical system in
their airplane, but perhaps someone here could offer insight..
A friend with a Parakeet bipe (currently no electrical system) wants to
add just a starter & battery to his airplane. He'd like to know about how
much capacity one would need to get at least 3-4 starts out of a battery
then charge it back up when home. I think it's a Cont O-200. Certainly,
it could vary based on how long it takes to start, temperature, etc. But,
I'm just probing for him any stories or suggestions from the group.
It seems the amp-hour ratings decline as the load current increases, so I
don't think one could rely on capacity calculated from the normal Ah
rating.
Anyone out there with just a battery & starter for wiring demands?
Thanks.
---------------------------------------------- >+
Bob Bittner
Message 6
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chuck Jensen <cjensen@dts9000.com>
Is there an alarm system available for exp. aircraft that has been used. I
have a keyed door but, having just installed avionics that has the
equivalent value of the GNP of a developing nation, I'd like to give
potential thieves a better run for their money than some winky door lock.
An audible alarm and potentially activation of strobe and canard flashers
would seem to be a minimu. I assume some "good" solutions have been worked
out but didn't find it in the archives. Ideas?
Chuck, in East Tennessee
Velocity XLRG
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: starting-only battery |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David E. Nelson" <david.nelson@pobox.com>
Hi Bob,
Can't help the capacity question but I do have thought here: Might I suggest he
carry a small 12 V solar panel (say from JC Whitney) with him just in case no
power source for the charger is available. Maybe also rig it so that it
charges the battery while in flight since he's resticted to day time only
flying.
Regards,
/\/elson
On Mon, 17 May 2004, Bob Bittner wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bob Bittner <rbittner@us.ibm.com>
>
> Probably not too many people on the list with "no" electrical system in
> their airplane, but perhaps someone here could offer insight..
>
> A friend with a Parakeet bipe (currently no electrical system) wants to
> add just a starter & battery to his airplane. He'd like to know about how
> much capacity one would need to get at least 3-4 starts out of a battery
> then charge it back up when home. I think it's a Cont O-200. Certainly,
> it could vary based on how long it takes to start, temperature, etc. But,
> I'm just probing for him any stories or suggestions from the group.
>
> It seems the amp-hour ratings decline as the load current increases, so I
> don't think one could rely on capacity calculated from the normal Ah
> rating.
>
> Anyone out there with just a battery & starter for wiring demands?
>
> Thanks.
>
> ---------------------------------------------- >+
> Bob Bittner
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
~~ ** ~~ If you didn't learn anything when you broke it the 1st ~~ ** ~~
time, then break it again.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Alarm System |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dj Merrill <deej@thayer.dartmouth.edu>
Chuck Jensen wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chuck Jensen <cjensen@dts9000.com>
>
> Is there an alarm system available for exp. aircraft that has been used. I
> have a keyed door but, having just installed avionics that has the
> equivalent value of the GNP of a developing nation, I'd like to give
> potential thieves a better run for their money than some winky door lock.
> An audible alarm and potentially activation of strobe and canard flashers
> would seem to be a minimu. I assume some "good" solutions have been worked
> out but didn't find it in the archives. Ideas?
>
> Chuck, in East Tennessee
> Velocity XLRG
Electrify the door lock for a nice "shocking" surprise? ;-)
Seriously, though, you could probably easily adapt a car alarm,
although I'd be a little concerned about running the battery dead.
-Dj
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Weight of RG-142 |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: echristley@nc.rr.com
>
> I'll join Eric in offering the notion that the
simple-ideas
> underlying the really elegant decision are
easily obscured by
> a lot of ol' pilot's tales and hangar wisdom.
I appreciate Eric's analysis so much, that I'm going
to order some copper clad aluminum wire even if I
end up not using it. I don't necessarily think his
analysis is correct, but even the fact that he made
an ATTEMPT to justify the weight savings on a dollar
savings basis is a watershed event for me. I mean,
how often do you see the adds that scream "SAVE
.08oz for only $18,000!!"
The problem I have with Eric's analysis is that it
doesn't seem to seperate out what the effect of
adding #1 will have. It just sort of lumps the
additional weight in with everything. What I really
want to get at is, "How much more will it cost me in
the long run to use the radio that is #1 heavier?"
I think the best method of analysis would derive
from Bob's experience on the Voyager project. #1
requires #5 of fuel to go around the world. I don't
see the examples of the more business type planes
being as applicable, because by their very nature
spec'd out to fly a lot more.
But the around the world voyager trip. That is a
trip of around 25,000 miles, and five pounds of fuel
is around a gallon. The numbers I hear for the
average GA pilot flight time is about 100hrs/year,
which amounts to a 2hr flight EVERY weekend. With a
200mph plane, that's about 20,000 miles per year.
So, saving a pound will save a gallon of gas a year.
Or about $3 (I'll run mogas. About $2 for me.)
Now, I don't see the typical OBAM aircraft flying
for 30 years in its original configuration. Radios,
tires possibly even engines change. Not only that,
I'm likely to sell it in a decade after my wife gets
tired of me and takes half the plane in the divorce.
Do I really care that the next guy might have a
slightly higher fuel burn? Then there is the high
probability of mother nature or an accident taking
it out. I don't have actuarial data, but I would
put the lifetime of the aircraft at 10 years.
So, how much do you spend to save $30 ($3x10years)?
Funny how my final number came so close to Eric's.
To me, that's a good number. I realize that any
analysis of this type is full of maybe's, what if's
and mostly speculation.
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Alarm System |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" <jrstone@insightbb.com>
Hey Chuck,
What avionics did you install, and what is your exact address?
JHSF,
Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck Jensen" <cjensen@dts9000.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Alarm System
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chuck Jensen
<cjensen@dts9000.com>
>
> Is there an alarm system available for exp. aircraft that has been used.
I
> have a keyed door but, having just installed avionics that has the
> equivalent value of the GNP of a developing nation, I'd like to give
> potential thieves a better run for their money than some winky door lock.
> An audible alarm and potentially activation of strobe and canard flashers
> would seem to be a minimu. I assume some "good" solutions have been
worked
> out but didn't find it in the archives. Ideas?
>
> Chuck, in East Tennessee
> Velocity XLRG
>
>
Message 11
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jack <jgh2@charter.net>
A few weeks ago I contacted a supplier who had an overstock of 15'
RG400 cables with male BNC connectors and molded strain reliefs (see <
http://webpages.charter.net/jghkah/cables/cables.html >). I bought
more than needed for my plane and sold the extras for $18/cable on the
Matronics RV list. Recently some RV list members asked whether more
cables were available.
The supplier will not be making more but, as of last week, still had
some left and was willing to sell in quantities of 12 or more (with a
significant shipping charge). If enough members of the RV and
AeroElectric would like to purchase these cables at $20 each (plus $5
dollars for shipping up to two cables plus $1 for each additional
cable) I'll order another dozen or so. If you are interested please
email me directly. I'll post a message to both lists next Monday to
let everybody know whether there was sufficient interest to justify the
order and, if so, the expected arrival date.
Jack H.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Instrument light dimming |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James Redmon" <james@berkut13.com>
All,
I am buttoning up my Berkut project for transport to the airport in a few
weeks and in the process tried out the night-flight configuration with the
newly installed canopies. I am using a single B&C dimmer unit to drive all
the instrument and radio lighting.
The mostly incandescent lighting in the radios dims down to almost nothing
and is not a problem. However, the backup 2 1/4" AS and ALT instruments are
powered by the "add-on" glow strip rings that are powered by a DC-AC
inverter. The inverter is hooked up to the same panel dimmer and it does
dim...but not nearly enough. They are still way-to-bright for night ops,
while some radio lights are at about zero illumination.
The question is, how can I achieve additional dimming on those instruments
without sacrificing too much full-bright range? I can stand a little
degradation, but not too much as the blue/green light makes them stand-out
from under the long canopy cover.
Thanks,
James Redmon
Berkut #013 N97TX
http://www.berkut13.com
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Weight of RG-142 |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
NACA published this paper in 1924! Much of this will tease out the changes
in performance, range etc. from a weight change. Caution: Not for the
mathematically faint-hearted!
Reliable formulae for estimating airplane performance and the effects of
changes in weight, .....snip... etc.
Diehl, Walter S , Bureau of Aeronautics (Navy) (Washington, DC, United
States) NACA Report 173, 22 pp. , 1924
Abstract: The derivation and the verification of formulae for predicting the
speed range ratio, the initial rate of climb, and the absolute ceiling of an
airplane. Curves used in the computation are given in NACA-TR-171. Standard
formulae for service ceiling, time of climb, cruising range, and endurance
are also given in the conventional forms.
http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1924/naca-report-173/ (everything you
ever wanted to know about aviation)!
From NACA Technical Note 206: Charles Ward Hall 1924: Structural Weight of
Aircraft as Affected by the System of Design:
"From one point of view-- the pay load--that is, the weight which is to
be transported, whether it be mail or other goods, bombs, or machine
gun bullets, represents the only profitable part of the enterprise. A
minimum weight of airplane structure, a minimum weight of power
plant consistent with the necessary performance, a minimum
weight of fuel, of lubricant, and of other essential equipment to accomplish
with a proper margin the intended voyage, may be considered as
detrimental but unavoidably so; in a sense an overhead charge against the
enterprise. Anything more than the minimum in these non-profitable loads may
reasonably be taken as parasitical and should be eliminated."
There are many ways to calculate how a pound will change your fortune and
fortunes.
Regarding Bob N's excellent note on the subject. $100 in 1964 is equivalent
to $606.45 in 2004 money. Yikes!
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
Phone (508) 764-2072
Email: emjones@charter.net
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Alarm System |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 02:04 PM 5/17/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" <jrstone@insightbb.com>
>
>Hey Chuck,
>What avionics did you install, and what is your exact address?
>JHSF,
>Jim
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Chuck Jensen" <cjensen@dts9000.com>
>To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Alarm System
>
>
> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chuck Jensen
><cjensen@dts9000.com>
> >
> > Is there an alarm system available for exp. aircraft that has been used.
>I
> > have a keyed door but, having just installed avionics that has the
> > equivalent value of the GNP of a developing nation, I'd like to give
> > potential thieves a better run for their money than some winky door lock.
> > An audible alarm and potentially activation of strobe and canard flashers
> > would seem to be a minimu. I assume some "good" solutions have been
>worked
> > out but didn't find it in the archives. Ideas?
How is your airplane to be stored? We had a tie-down tenant
on our airport relate his own experience with stolen radios:
Seems his C-182 was parked on a relatively unsecured field
(like ours at 1K1) and someone decided to take advantage of
the situation and removed all the radios from his airplane.
To get at the radios, he put a crowbar into the gap between
trailing edge of door and doorpost to pry it open. In addition
to getting the radios, damage to the aircraft was about $2,000.
Some years later, his airplane was entered while parked on
an away field. A flight bag with hand-helds and other pilot's
tools were stolen. The insurance company initially balked at
the claim, "You didn't lock the airplane." The guy sent
a copy of the repair bill for the door on the earlier
event and suggested that locking the door would not have
prevented anyone from getting into the airplane . . . and
would only increase the size of the claim. They paid the
claim with no further protest.
Bottom line is, what do you REALLY expect any barrier between
thief and valuables to accomplish? Locks only keep honest people
honest . . . if someone wants the stuff in your airplane,
fragile barriers are only an inconvenience.
You might be better off locking a hangar door (the most
robust barrier) and leaving the airplane unlocked. Once
the thief is inside the hangar, the question is not whether
or not he walks away with your stuff, it's a question of
total cost to put things right. New canopy? Lots of chop-n-hack
on your sheet metal with doublers inside at the joints where
buggered sheet metal was cut out?
Many folks who parked airplanes on 1K1 didn't lock doors . . .
for exactly the reason cited above. Given the number of
car alarms that annoy the populace-at-large, I'm not
sure I'd put much faith in the value of making some ADDITIONAL
noise when a thief hammers a hole in your windshield.
Bob . . .
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Alarm System |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: echristley@nc.rr.com
Locks only keep out the honest thieves, and alarms
are there to let you know that your stuff was just
stolen.
The only good alarm system I ever found was the old
retired guy next door. He told one ruffian who was
walking the neighborhood, knocking on doors to get
the time that he would "wind his watch" if he ever
saw him around again. I miss Smitty.
The only safe place to put your airplane will be at
a airport small and friendly enough for people to
know you and large enough to constantly having those
people coming and going.
Message 16
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" <terry@tcwatson.com>
Just like you don't have to be able to outrun a Grizzly but you do have to
be able to outrun the guy you are hiking with when the Grizzly charges, you
don't have to make it impossible for some jerk to steal your radios; just
less convenient than stealing someone else's radios.
It would seem to me that an alarm would be a better deterrent than a lock.
If he is going to ignore the alarm he still doesn't have to break your
canopy to get your avionics. I would think the decision about an alarm
would depend on cost, weight, inconvenience, and risk. I don't like car
alarms and I like false car alarms even less, but I can see that a similar
alarm on an airplane might make sense under some circumstances.
Locks do not keep honest people from stealing your stuff. Crooks steal your
stuff. Honest people leave it alone.
Terry
RV-8A wiring, probably without an alarm
Bottom line is, what do you REALLY expect any barrier between
thief and valuables to accomplish? Locks only keep honest people
honest . . . if someone wants the stuff in your airplane,
fragile barriers are only an inconvenience.
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Alarm System |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" <mprather@spro.net>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
> <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
>
> How is your airplane to be stored? We had a tie-down tenant
> on our airport relate his own experience with stolen radios:
>
> Seems his C-182 was parked on a relatively unsecured field
> (like ours at 1K1) and someone decided to take advantage of
> the situation and removed all the radios from his airplane.
snip
Hi Bob,
While I generally agree with everything you said, I think there
are some technological solutions that might bear consideration.
For instance, there are cell phone modules that can be interfaced
to car alarms so that setting off the system causes you (or your
airplane's appointed guardian to get a phone call (or email or text
page). Obviously, this only works if you have cell phone service
where the plane is parked. Another down side is that you have
to decide what action you want to take in response to an alert. Do
you immediately rush to the plane? If it's parked across town,
probably not...
Another option is to set up a motion sensing security camera
system. Here's one with a wireless interface.
http://www.x10.com/home/offer.cgi?!PLAT,../x10search4.htm#
I could imagine placing this unit on the glare shield so that any would
be thief gets his picture taken. The camera and recording
unit should be located seperately to minimize the chance that
the attacker removes/destroys both items. If the plane is parked
outside, rig up a solar panel to allow for battery operation.
It would be relatively simple to set the system up so it emails you
snapshots of anything interesting going on with the airplane. This
would be nice since the recording device (the hard drive on your
home computer) isn't accessible by the thief. Sure, you would
probably get a bunch of bogus shots of birds or leaves flying around,
but you can delete all of those if nothing ever gets stolen. Set up
a cron on your linux pc to take care of it....
Regards,
Matt-
VE N34RD
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Alarm System |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com>
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" <mprather@spro.net>
>
>> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
>> <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>>
>
>>
>> How is your airplane to be stored? We had a tie-down tenant
>> on our airport relate his own experience with stolen radios:
>>
>> Seems his C-182 was parked on a relatively unsecured field
>> (like ours at 1K1) and someone decided to take advantage of
>> the situation and removed all the radios from his airplane.
>snip
>
>Hi Bob,
>
>While I generally agree with everything you said, I think there
>are some technological solutions that might bear consideration.
>
>For instance, there are cell phone modules that can be interfaced
>to car alarms so that setting off the system causes you (or your
>airplane's appointed guardian to get a phone call (or email or text
>page). Obviously, this only works if you have cell phone service
>where the plane is parked. Another down side is that you have
>to decide what action you want to take in response to an alert. Do
>you immediately rush to the plane? If it's parked across town,
>probably not...
>
>Another option is to set up a motion sensing security camera
>system. Here's one with a wireless interface.
>
>http://www.x10.com/home/offer.cgi?!PLAT,../x10search4.htm#
>
>I could imagine placing this unit on the glare shield so that any would
>be thief gets his picture taken. The camera and recording
>unit should be located seperately to minimize the chance that
>the attacker removes/destroys both items. If the plane is parked
>outside, rig up a solar panel to allow for battery operation.
>
>It would be relatively simple to set the system up so it emails you
>snapshots of anything interesting going on with the airplane. This
>would be nice since the recording device (the hard drive on your
>home computer) isn't accessible by the thief. Sure, you would
>probably get a bunch of bogus shots of birds or leaves flying around,
>but you can delete all of those if nothing ever gets stolen. Set up
>a cron on your linux pc to take care of it....
>
>Regards,
>
>Matt-
>VE N34RD
If I were an avionics thief, and I learned that someone had gone to
this much trouble to protect their stuff, I might conclude that there
must be a lot of dollars of avionics in that panel. It would seem a
simple job to put on some sort of Halloween mask while stealing the
loot.
So, you might get a picture during the first robbery. But the next
ones to steal your stuff would be ready for your camera.
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Alarm System |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James Redmon" <james@berkut13.com>
I am in total agreement....but is it really the threat of an alarm, or the
alarm itself that prevents the more time consuming break-ins? Nothing but
bullet-proof glass and armor is going to stop a smash and grab, but to
remove a radio takes a little longer (although, not much).
So, what can we do? (Aside from the obvious hangars, well lit areas,
supervision, clean cockpit, etc.)
Install ye old blinking LED from Radio Shack, a resistor, and a very small
switch (less than $5 and won't drain batteries) in an obvious place. From
the outside, you can't tell the deference between a "real" alarm and a fake,
but it has EXACTLY the same deterrence factor. I've had one on every
vehicle I have ever owned - not a single problem. But I also leave nothing
in open view that might tempt the "smash and grab" artist. Your mileage may
vary...but given the simplistic approach...what do you have to loose?
Besides, if the guys is hell-bent on getting in or stealing the plane
itself...nothing you can do besides being within tackling distance will
prevent it. Even then....
Food for thought,
James Redmon
Berkut #013 N97TX
http://www.berkut13.com
> It would seem to me that an alarm would be a better deterrent than a lock.
> If he is going to ignore the alarm he still doesn't have to break your
> canopy to get your avionics.
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Alarm System |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" <mprather@spro.net>
Good point... The thief camera would catch the dumb ones (which,
fortuneately, most are). As well, many GA airports now have security
cams. A cockpit cam would make the detective work much easier...
Like "Hmm, my airplane was broken into around 3AM this morning. Let
me call the airport and talk to the manager and find out what cars were
wandering around the ramp at that time"
My hope, like others have expressed, is to make stealing my stuff
inconvenient/risky enough that the average felon goes elsewhere to ply
their trade. I fully realize that keeping the 'Gone in 60 seconds' crowd
out of my stuff is pretty difficult. I think most of the bad guys aren't
that
good, however.
MAP
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kevin Horton
> <khorton01@rogers.com>
>
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather"
>> <mprather@spro.net>
>>
>>> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
>>> <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>> How is your airplane to be stored? We had a tie-down tenant on
>>> our airport relate his own experience with stolen radios:
>>>
>>> Seems his C-182 was parked on a relatively unsecured field
>>> (like ours at 1K1) and someone decided to take advantage of
>>> the situation and removed all the radios from his airplane.
>>snip
>>
>>Hi Bob,
>>
>>While I generally agree with everything you said, I think there
>>are some technological solutions that might bear consideration.
>>
snip
> must be a lot of dollars of avionics in that panel. It would seem a
> simple job to put on some sort of Halloween mask while stealing the
> loot.
>
> So, you might get a picture during the first robbery. But the next
> ones to steal your stuff would be ready for your camera.
>
>
Message 21
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rob Housman" <RobH@hyperion-ef.com>
The usual alarms don't do anything but annoy the neighbors (as already
pointed out in another post) but there is an effective way to use an alarm.
Put the noise INSIDE the cockpit, preferably a system capable of putting out
at least 80dB - more is better - of continuous sound and make sure that the
alarm and speaker and their wires are secured, as should be the source of
power to the alarm. No thief will sit in the cockpit long enough to trace
the wires especially if the wires are hard to find and are inside a metal
conduit, let alone stay long enough to remove the expensive stuff. Of
course if you leave your ANR headset in the cockpit (or the thief brings his
own, perhaps stolen from another aircraft on the ramp) this probably won't
work.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
Europa XS Tri-Gear A070
Airframe complete
Irvine, CA
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Chuck
Jensen
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Alarm System
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chuck Jensen <cjensen@dts9000.com>
Is there an alarm system available for exp. aircraft that has been used. I
have a keyed door but, having just installed avionics that has the
equivalent value of the GNP of a developing nation, I'd like to give
potential thieves a better run for their money than some winky door lock.
An audible alarm and potentially activation of strobe and canard flashers
would seem to be a minimu. I assume some "good" solutions have been worked
out but didn't find it in the archives. Ideas?
Chuck, in East Tennessee
Velocity XLRG
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Alarm System |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chad Robinson <crj@lucubration.com>
James Redmon wrote:
> Besides, if the guys is hell-bent on getting in or stealing the plane
> itself...nothing you can do besides being within tackling distance will
> prevent it. Even then....
And what if the thief is after the alarm itself? Those are worth at least $50.
=)
This sounds like a market for instrument panel "fakers", authentic-looking
overlays with nothing behind them that sit in front of your real instrument
panel and make it look like your BEST instrument is this classic Narco VTR-1:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=419&item=2244525508&rd=1
and your attitude gyro is this bad boy:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=2478740682&category=26436
You'd have to have enough of an overhang/surround to make it look authentic,
but if you were clever about it... Let 'em wonder how you get it in the air at
all! =)
Regards,
Chad
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