---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 05/17/04: 22 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:24 AM - Re: Bob - Single Ground question ?? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 2. 07:25 AM - Re: Weight of RG-142 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 07:35 AM - Batteries (Ron Lee) 4. 07:39 AM - Re: Batterys (PGLong@aol.com) 5. 07:51 AM - starting-only battery (Bob Bittner) 6. 08:41 AM - Alarm System (Chuck Jensen) 7. 09:20 AM - Re: starting-only battery (David E. Nelson) 8. 09:27 AM - Re: Alarm System (Dj Merrill) 9. 10:22 AM - Re: Re: Weight of RG-142 (echristley@nc.rr.com) 10. 11:08 AM - Re: Alarm System (Jim Stone) 11. 11:28 AM - RG400 Cables (Jack) 12. 12:39 PM - Instrument light dimming (James Redmon) 13. 01:50 PM - Re: Weight of RG-142 (Eric M. Jones) 14. 02:12 PM - Re: Alarm System (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 15. 02:49 PM - Re: Alarm System (echristley@nc.rr.com) 16. 03:25 PM - Re: Alarm System (Terry Watson) 17. 04:05 PM - Re: Alarm System (Matt Prather) 18. 04:33 PM - Re: Alarm System (Kevin Horton) 19. 04:53 PM - Re: Alarm System (James Redmon) 20. 05:29 PM - Re: Alarm System (Matt Prather) 21. 05:46 PM - Re: Alarm System (Rob Housman) 22. 06:35 PM - Re: Alarm System (Chad Robinson) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:24:26 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Bob - Single Ground question ?? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 07:43 PM 5/16/2004 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Schaefer" > > >Bob .. >I need your thoughts on a problem I've run up against. I've followed your >single ground specifications to a tee. All my grounds are run to the single >B&C ground block. > >However, I have an issue. I have a 'pre-made' harness with 8 power and 8 >ground connections all on very short 6" leads coming out of the main cable >bundle which is about 4' long. All had ring terminals on them. I've cut >off the power side ring terminals and replaced them with fast-ons to connect >to my B&C fuse block. > >However, I can't decide what to do with the ground side. > >#1 Do I cut off the ring terminals and splice longer wires (3') onto the >leads to get back across the plane to the ground block (3' away)? > >#2 Do I put the ring terminals on a single bolt and run one larger wire back >to the ground block? > >#3 Do I put a couple of bolt-studs by the fuse blocks and ground the ring >terminals to the firewall at the local site? Give #3 a try. If you don't have an noise problem from the ignition system (and you probably won't), then there's nothing else to do. If push comes to shove and you do get some noise, then extend the individual wires to the ground block. >Will the splices 'degrade' the ground? No. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------- ( Experience and common sense cannot be ) ( replaced with policy and procedures. ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ----------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:25:20 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Weight of RG-142 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Eric Jones wrote: >The wire I have found is 0.24 ounces per foot (35% of the weight of standard >RG142). Furthermore it has improved characteristics--50% better VSWR, 22% >lower insertion loss, reduce phase and attenuation drift, etc. Making even >much lighter cable is quite possible. > >The real question is what is losing a pound worth? Here's my rough estimate: > >Lets say your aircraft is worth $100,000 and weighs 2,000 pounds. Does this >mean your airplane is worth $50/pound? Maybe. > >A better way to estimate the savings is to look at the total operating cost >for the life of the aircraft. In this case lets imagine the aircraft will >go 10,000 hours and costs $75 per hour to fly. Thats $750,000. At the end >of this time we assume the aircraft will be valueless. So thats >$750,000/2000 pounds; or $350/pound. > >Lets apply the reasonableness test to this: Does $350/pound mean that your >old tin barf-bird sitting on the ramp is worth $350/pound? No. This figure >says that the cost of moving a pound of airplane all over the sky for 10,000 >hours (50 years at 200 hours per year for example) is $350. Thats perfectly >reasonable. > >So how much should you pay to avoid the $350/pound expense? If you invested >$35 compounded annually at 8% return with an inflation rate of 3.1%, you >would have the $350 in 50 years. So the answer could be $35. > >(This simple example does not include the increased value in having an >airplane that goes a little faster, etc.) > >(I would like aeroelectric listers opinions on this!). > >So in summary I really don't know. If the cable costs even nearly the same, >certainly get the better and lighter cable. >But there are certainly other factors--- > >A couple weeks ago there was a lister who thought my Super-2-CCA copper clad >aluminum FatWire (available in two weeks) was too expensive for the weight >saved. I honestly don't know how best to calculate such a thing. I once flew >from Van Nuys, Ca to Winslow, Az in a Cessna150 and landed with a pound of >usable fuel remaining. I would have paid plenty for that pound of fuel >instead of a extra pound of wire. > >Regards, >Eric M. Jones Excellent points. I can reinforce those ideas with the following anecdotes from my own experience. In 1964 when I was a tech writer for Cessna, a number commonly circulated around the engineering department suggested "For every pound of emptly weight added to our airplanes, it will cost the owner(s) of that airplane $100 to buy the pound of stuff, maintain it, and purchase fuel to carry it around over the lifetime of the airplane. When I worked at Lear on the Gates-Piaggio GP-180 program, I asked my management how much bonus I could offer my suppliers for weight reduction. That got me a bunch of surprise looks. "Shucks Nuckolls, beat 'em up for every ounce you can get . . . but why should we offer a 'bonus'? I told them about my experience at Cessna. They went off into a huddle and a few days later came back with a figure of $300. I was skeptical that it was truly that low . . . but it did mark a milestone in the way my management thought about the economics of designing, building and operating our products. The fact that they would offer ANY substantial number in dollars for weight reduction was pretty cool. A few days ago, I meet one of RAC's higher engineering management folks in the Denver airport. He had been visiting kids in the Denver area and I was coming back from a consulting trip in Idaho. I bemoaned the state of an important system in one of our products that was too complicated (astounding parts count), too heavy (about 50-60 pounds), terrible service history (been in the #1 trouble reports slot on the airplane since day-one), and about 1.5 to 2x more expensive than more attractive options. I proposed RAC consider of a system that was at least 50 pounds lighter with a demonstrated zero faults performance record for many hours on a flight test aircraft. I asked him what it was worth for weight reduction on this airplane? He didn't think long before he came up with the number of $2,000 per pound. I then described my proposal for replacing the system and suggested that if we could carve 50 pounds out, 1/3 to 1/2 the cost of hardware, 95% of the installation labor and offer system with an impeccable track record then at $100,000 savings to the customer (in ADDITION to good will generated by eliminating a troublesome system), that changing over to the new system was essentially "free" . . . yes, there are some up-front costs on the order of a $million but this would amortize out VERY quickly. He didn't argue with me. The discussion went to other topics but it will be interesting to see what his reaction and support is when I bring this solution up in an upcoming meeting. Eric's observations are accurate and right on point. There are economies of operation, financing, fabrication and parts selection that can argue most energetically with each other. During Voyager's design and construction phases we were told that it takes 5# of fuel to carry 1# of airplane around the world. This means that every pound of empty weight jacks up take off weight by 6 pounds. Here the economies of operation held sway and every effort was made to carve grams out of the airplane sometimes at great expense on an airplane that had a lifetime of a few hundred hours! Each of you needs to make your own decisions as to which economy drives various decisions for purchase and assembly of parts. I've oft used the term "cost of ownership" in discussions where the long term benefit from a larger investment up front pays off. I've also championed the notion of parts-count-reduction where the economies of reliability are perceived as most important. If one can bring multiple benefits to bear (lower parts count, lower weight, lower cost of ownership) while improving performance . . . then I'll suggest this is the very ESSENCE of the OBAM aircraft fabrication philosophy that will never be fully realized in the certified world. While OBAM aircraft have published gross weight limits, I think we can agree that those limits can be pushed under certain conditions (cool air, c.g. well inside limits, etc) and certain times when they cannot. It seems that spending lots of time and dollars on weight reduction for weight reduction's sake may not be the same overpowering economy in OBAM aircraft that it is in certified ships. I'll join Eric in offering the notion that the simple-ideas underlying the really elegant decision are easily obscured by a lot of ol' pilot's tales and hangar wisdom. Bringing questions out to the List is the best place to filter the various ideas in search of the elegant solution. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:35:47 AM PST US From: "Ron Lee" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Batteries --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ron Lee" Since I've started using an automatic battery maintainer, my plane and cycle batteries have lasted two to three times as long. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:39:38 AM PST US From: PGLong@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Batterys --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: PGLong@aol.com Stopped down to check on Jon Staudacher's latest aerobatic 2 place he is building. Wow, what a paint job. Anyway, the battery he spins the IO-540 is a Power Sonic, Model PS-12180-NB and has an 18 AH rating. He orders them from Allied Radio. Their website was on the battery so you can check it out yourselves. www.Power-Sonic.com Pat Long PGLong@aol.com N120PL RV4 Waiting for the DAR Bay City, Michigan 3CM Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:51:15 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: starting-only battery From: Bob Bittner 05/17/2004 09:48:06 AM, Serialize complete at 05/17/2004 09:48:06 AM --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bob Bittner Probably not too many people on the list with "no" electrical system in their airplane, but perhaps someone here could offer insight.. A friend with a Parakeet bipe (currently no electrical system) wants to add just a starter & battery to his airplane. He'd like to know about how much capacity one would need to get at least 3-4 starts out of a battery then charge it back up when home. I think it's a Cont O-200. Certainly, it could vary based on how long it takes to start, temperature, etc. But, I'm just probing for him any stories or suggestions from the group. It seems the amp-hour ratings decline as the load current increases, so I don't think one could rely on capacity calculated from the normal Ah rating. Anyone out there with just a battery & starter for wiring demands? Thanks. ---------------------------------------------- >+ Bob Bittner ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:41:48 AM PST US From: Chuck Jensen Subject: AeroElectric-List: Alarm System --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chuck Jensen Is there an alarm system available for exp. aircraft that has been used. I have a keyed door but, having just installed avionics that has the equivalent value of the GNP of a developing nation, I'd like to give potential thieves a better run for their money than some winky door lock. An audible alarm and potentially activation of strobe and canard flashers would seem to be a minimu. I assume some "good" solutions have been worked out but didn't find it in the archives. Ideas? Chuck, in East Tennessee Velocity XLRG ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:20:43 AM PST US From: "David E. Nelson" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: starting-only battery --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David E. Nelson" Hi Bob, Can't help the capacity question but I do have thought here: Might I suggest he carry a small 12 V solar panel (say from JC Whitney) with him just in case no power source for the charger is available. Maybe also rig it so that it charges the battery while in flight since he's resticted to day time only flying. Regards, /\/elson On Mon, 17 May 2004, Bob Bittner wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bob Bittner > > Probably not too many people on the list with "no" electrical system in > their airplane, but perhaps someone here could offer insight.. > > A friend with a Parakeet bipe (currently no electrical system) wants to > add just a starter & battery to his airplane. He'd like to know about how > much capacity one would need to get at least 3-4 starts out of a battery > then charge it back up when home. I think it's a Cont O-200. Certainly, > it could vary based on how long it takes to start, temperature, etc. But, > I'm just probing for him any stories or suggestions from the group. > > It seems the amp-hour ratings decline as the load current increases, so I > don't think one could rely on capacity calculated from the normal Ah > rating. > > Anyone out there with just a battery & starter for wiring demands? > > Thanks. > > ---------------------------------------------- >+ > Bob Bittner > > > > > > > -- ~~ ** ~~ If you didn't learn anything when you broke it the 1st ~~ ** ~~ time, then break it again. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:27:37 AM PST US From: Dj Merrill Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alarm System --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dj Merrill Chuck Jensen wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chuck Jensen > > Is there an alarm system available for exp. aircraft that has been used. I > have a keyed door but, having just installed avionics that has the > equivalent value of the GNP of a developing nation, I'd like to give > potential thieves a better run for their money than some winky door lock. > An audible alarm and potentially activation of strobe and canard flashers > would seem to be a minimu. I assume some "good" solutions have been worked > out but didn't find it in the archives. Ideas? > > Chuck, in East Tennessee > Velocity XLRG Electrify the door lock for a nice "shocking" surprise? ;-) Seriously, though, you could probably easily adapt a car alarm, although I'd be a little concerned about running the battery dead. -Dj ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:22:51 AM PST US From: echristley@nc.rr.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Weight of RG-142 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: echristley@nc.rr.com > > I'll join Eric in offering the notion that the simple-ideas > underlying the really elegant decision are easily obscured by > a lot of ol' pilot's tales and hangar wisdom. I appreciate Eric's analysis so much, that I'm going to order some copper clad aluminum wire even if I end up not using it. I don't necessarily think his analysis is correct, but even the fact that he made an ATTEMPT to justify the weight savings on a dollar savings basis is a watershed event for me. I mean, how often do you see the adds that scream "SAVE .08oz for only $18,000!!" The problem I have with Eric's analysis is that it doesn't seem to seperate out what the effect of adding #1 will have. It just sort of lumps the additional weight in with everything. What I really want to get at is, "How much more will it cost me in the long run to use the radio that is #1 heavier?" I think the best method of analysis would derive from Bob's experience on the Voyager project. #1 requires #5 of fuel to go around the world. I don't see the examples of the more business type planes being as applicable, because by their very nature spec'd out to fly a lot more. But the around the world voyager trip. That is a trip of around 25,000 miles, and five pounds of fuel is around a gallon. The numbers I hear for the average GA pilot flight time is about 100hrs/year, which amounts to a 2hr flight EVERY weekend. With a 200mph plane, that's about 20,000 miles per year. So, saving a pound will save a gallon of gas a year. Or about $3 (I'll run mogas. About $2 for me.) Now, I don't see the typical OBAM aircraft flying for 30 years in its original configuration. Radios, tires possibly even engines change. Not only that, I'm likely to sell it in a decade after my wife gets tired of me and takes half the plane in the divorce. Do I really care that the next guy might have a slightly higher fuel burn? Then there is the high probability of mother nature or an accident taking it out. I don't have actuarial data, but I would put the lifetime of the aircraft at 10 years. So, how much do you spend to save $30 ($3x10years)? Funny how my final number came so close to Eric's. To me, that's a good number. I realize that any analysis of this type is full of maybe's, what if's and mostly speculation. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:08:08 AM PST US From: "Jim Stone" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alarm System --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" Hey Chuck, What avionics did you install, and what is your exact address? JHSF, Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Jensen" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Alarm System > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chuck Jensen > > Is there an alarm system available for exp. aircraft that has been used. I > have a keyed door but, having just installed avionics that has the > equivalent value of the GNP of a developing nation, I'd like to give > potential thieves a better run for their money than some winky door lock. > An audible alarm and potentially activation of strobe and canard flashers > would seem to be a minimu. I assume some "good" solutions have been worked > out but didn't find it in the archives. Ideas? > > Chuck, in East Tennessee > Velocity XLRG > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:28:46 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: RG400 Cables From: Jack --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jack A few weeks ago I contacted a supplier who had an overstock of 15' RG400 cables with male BNC connectors and molded strain reliefs (see < http://webpages.charter.net/jghkah/cables/cables.html >). I bought more than needed for my plane and sold the extras for $18/cable on the Matronics RV list. Recently some RV list members asked whether more cables were available. The supplier will not be making more but, as of last week, still had some left and was willing to sell in quantities of 12 or more (with a significant shipping charge). If enough members of the RV and AeroElectric would like to purchase these cables at $20 each (plus $5 dollars for shipping up to two cables plus $1 for each additional cable) I'll order another dozen or so. If you are interested please email me directly. I'll post a message to both lists next Monday to let everybody know whether there was sufficient interest to justify the order and, if so, the expected arrival date. Jack H. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:39:33 PM PST US From: "James Redmon" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Instrument light dimming --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James Redmon" All, I am buttoning up my Berkut project for transport to the airport in a few weeks and in the process tried out the night-flight configuration with the newly installed canopies. I am using a single B&C dimmer unit to drive all the instrument and radio lighting. The mostly incandescent lighting in the radios dims down to almost nothing and is not a problem. However, the backup 2 1/4" AS and ALT instruments are powered by the "add-on" glow strip rings that are powered by a DC-AC inverter. The inverter is hooked up to the same panel dimmer and it does dim...but not nearly enough. They are still way-to-bright for night ops, while some radio lights are at about zero illumination. The question is, how can I achieve additional dimming on those instruments without sacrificing too much full-bright range? I can stand a little degradation, but not too much as the blue/green light makes them stand-out from under the long canopy cover. Thanks, James Redmon Berkut #013 N97TX http://www.berkut13.com ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:50:07 PM PST US From: "Eric M. Jones" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Weight of RG-142 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" NACA published this paper in 1924! Much of this will tease out the changes in performance, range etc. from a weight change. Caution: Not for the mathematically faint-hearted! Reliable formulae for estimating airplane performance and the effects of changes in weight, .....snip... etc. Diehl, Walter S , Bureau of Aeronautics (Navy) (Washington, DC, United States) NACA Report 173, 22 pp. , 1924 Abstract: The derivation and the verification of formulae for predicting the speed range ratio, the initial rate of climb, and the absolute ceiling of an airplane. Curves used in the computation are given in NACA-TR-171. Standard formulae for service ceiling, time of climb, cruising range, and endurance are also given in the conventional forms. http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1924/naca-report-173/ (everything you ever wanted to know about aviation)! From NACA Technical Note 206: Charles Ward Hall 1924: Structural Weight of Aircraft as Affected by the System of Design: "From one point of view-- the pay load--that is, the weight which is to be transported, whether it be mail or other goods, bombs, or machine gun bullets, represents the only profitable part of the enterprise. A minimum weight of airplane structure, a minimum weight of power plant consistent with the necessary performance, a minimum weight of fuel, of lubricant, and of other essential equipment to accomplish with a proper margin the intended voyage, may be considered as detrimental but unavoidably so; in a sense an overhead charge against the enterprise. Anything more than the minimum in these non-profitable loads may reasonably be taken as parasitical and should be eliminated." There are many ways to calculate how a pound will change your fortune and fortunes. Regarding Bob N's excellent note on the subject. $100 in 1964 is equivalent to $606.45 in 2004 money. Yikes! Regards, Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge MA 01550-2705 Phone (508) 764-2072 Email: emjones@charter.net ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:12:37 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alarm System --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 02:04 PM 5/17/2004 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" > >Hey Chuck, >What avionics did you install, and what is your exact address? >JHSF, >Jim >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Chuck Jensen" >To: >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Alarm System > > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chuck Jensen > > > > > Is there an alarm system available for exp. aircraft that has been used. >I > > have a keyed door but, having just installed avionics that has the > > equivalent value of the GNP of a developing nation, I'd like to give > > potential thieves a better run for their money than some winky door lock. > > An audible alarm and potentially activation of strobe and canard flashers > > would seem to be a minimu. I assume some "good" solutions have been >worked > > out but didn't find it in the archives. Ideas? How is your airplane to be stored? We had a tie-down tenant on our airport relate his own experience with stolen radios: Seems his C-182 was parked on a relatively unsecured field (like ours at 1K1) and someone decided to take advantage of the situation and removed all the radios from his airplane. To get at the radios, he put a crowbar into the gap between trailing edge of door and doorpost to pry it open. In addition to getting the radios, damage to the aircraft was about $2,000. Some years later, his airplane was entered while parked on an away field. A flight bag with hand-helds and other pilot's tools were stolen. The insurance company initially balked at the claim, "You didn't lock the airplane." The guy sent a copy of the repair bill for the door on the earlier event and suggested that locking the door would not have prevented anyone from getting into the airplane . . . and would only increase the size of the claim. They paid the claim with no further protest. Bottom line is, what do you REALLY expect any barrier between thief and valuables to accomplish? Locks only keep honest people honest . . . if someone wants the stuff in your airplane, fragile barriers are only an inconvenience. You might be better off locking a hangar door (the most robust barrier) and leaving the airplane unlocked. Once the thief is inside the hangar, the question is not whether or not he walks away with your stuff, it's a question of total cost to put things right. New canopy? Lots of chop-n-hack on your sheet metal with doublers inside at the joints where buggered sheet metal was cut out? Many folks who parked airplanes on 1K1 didn't lock doors . . . for exactly the reason cited above. Given the number of car alarms that annoy the populace-at-large, I'm not sure I'd put much faith in the value of making some ADDITIONAL noise when a thief hammers a hole in your windshield. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:49:51 PM PST US From: echristley@nc.rr.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alarm System --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: echristley@nc.rr.com Locks only keep out the honest thieves, and alarms are there to let you know that your stuff was just stolen. The only good alarm system I ever found was the old retired guy next door. He told one ruffian who was walking the neighborhood, knocking on doors to get the time that he would "wind his watch" if he ever saw him around again. I miss Smitty. The only safe place to put your airplane will be at a airport small and friendly enough for people to know you and large enough to constantly having those people coming and going. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 03:25:30 PM PST US From: "Terry Watson" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Alarm System --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" Just like you don't have to be able to outrun a Grizzly but you do have to be able to outrun the guy you are hiking with when the Grizzly charges, you don't have to make it impossible for some jerk to steal your radios; just less convenient than stealing someone else's radios. It would seem to me that an alarm would be a better deterrent than a lock. If he is going to ignore the alarm he still doesn't have to break your canopy to get your avionics. I would think the decision about an alarm would depend on cost, weight, inconvenience, and risk. I don't like car alarms and I like false car alarms even less, but I can see that a similar alarm on an airplane might make sense under some circumstances. Locks do not keep honest people from stealing your stuff. Crooks steal your stuff. Honest people leave it alone. Terry RV-8A wiring, probably without an alarm Bottom line is, what do you REALLY expect any barrier between thief and valuables to accomplish? Locks only keep honest people honest . . . if someone wants the stuff in your airplane, fragile barriers are only an inconvenience. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 04:05:46 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alarm System From: "Matt Prather" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > > > How is your airplane to be stored? We had a tie-down tenant > on our airport relate his own experience with stolen radios: > > Seems his C-182 was parked on a relatively unsecured field > (like ours at 1K1) and someone decided to take advantage of > the situation and removed all the radios from his airplane. snip Hi Bob, While I generally agree with everything you said, I think there are some technological solutions that might bear consideration. For instance, there are cell phone modules that can be interfaced to car alarms so that setting off the system causes you (or your airplane's appointed guardian to get a phone call (or email or text page). Obviously, this only works if you have cell phone service where the plane is parked. Another down side is that you have to decide what action you want to take in response to an alert. Do you immediately rush to the plane? If it's parked across town, probably not... Another option is to set up a motion sensing security camera system. Here's one with a wireless interface. http://www.x10.com/home/offer.cgi?!PLAT,../x10search4.htm# I could imagine placing this unit on the glare shield so that any would be thief gets his picture taken. The camera and recording unit should be located seperately to minimize the chance that the attacker removes/destroys both items. If the plane is parked outside, rig up a solar panel to allow for battery operation. It would be relatively simple to set the system up so it emails you snapshots of anything interesting going on with the airplane. This would be nice since the recording device (the hard drive on your home computer) isn't accessible by the thief. Sure, you would probably get a bunch of bogus shots of birds or leaves flying around, but you can delete all of those if nothing ever gets stolen. Set up a cron on your linux pc to take care of it.... Regards, Matt- VE N34RD ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 04:33:14 PM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alarm System --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kevin Horton >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" > >> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" >> >> > >> >> How is your airplane to be stored? We had a tie-down tenant >> on our airport relate his own experience with stolen radios: >> >> Seems his C-182 was parked on a relatively unsecured field >> (like ours at 1K1) and someone decided to take advantage of >> the situation and removed all the radios from his airplane. >snip > >Hi Bob, > >While I generally agree with everything you said, I think there >are some technological solutions that might bear consideration. > >For instance, there are cell phone modules that can be interfaced >to car alarms so that setting off the system causes you (or your >airplane's appointed guardian to get a phone call (or email or text >page). Obviously, this only works if you have cell phone service >where the plane is parked. Another down side is that you have >to decide what action you want to take in response to an alert. Do >you immediately rush to the plane? If it's parked across town, >probably not... > >Another option is to set up a motion sensing security camera >system. Here's one with a wireless interface. > >http://www.x10.com/home/offer.cgi?!PLAT,../x10search4.htm# > >I could imagine placing this unit on the glare shield so that any would >be thief gets his picture taken. The camera and recording >unit should be located seperately to minimize the chance that >the attacker removes/destroys both items. If the plane is parked >outside, rig up a solar panel to allow for battery operation. > >It would be relatively simple to set the system up so it emails you >snapshots of anything interesting going on with the airplane. This >would be nice since the recording device (the hard drive on your >home computer) isn't accessible by the thief. Sure, you would >probably get a bunch of bogus shots of birds or leaves flying around, >but you can delete all of those if nothing ever gets stolen. Set up >a cron on your linux pc to take care of it.... > >Regards, > >Matt- >VE N34RD If I were an avionics thief, and I learned that someone had gone to this much trouble to protect their stuff, I might conclude that there must be a lot of dollars of avionics in that panel. It would seem a simple job to put on some sort of Halloween mask while stealing the loot. So, you might get a picture during the first robbery. But the next ones to steal your stuff would be ready for your camera. ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 04:53:46 PM PST US From: "James Redmon" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alarm System --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James Redmon" I am in total agreement....but is it really the threat of an alarm, or the alarm itself that prevents the more time consuming break-ins? Nothing but bullet-proof glass and armor is going to stop a smash and grab, but to remove a radio takes a little longer (although, not much). So, what can we do? (Aside from the obvious hangars, well lit areas, supervision, clean cockpit, etc.) Install ye old blinking LED from Radio Shack, a resistor, and a very small switch (less than $5 and won't drain batteries) in an obvious place. From the outside, you can't tell the deference between a "real" alarm and a fake, but it has EXACTLY the same deterrence factor. I've had one on every vehicle I have ever owned - not a single problem. But I also leave nothing in open view that might tempt the "smash and grab" artist. Your mileage may vary...but given the simplistic approach...what do you have to loose? Besides, if the guys is hell-bent on getting in or stealing the plane itself...nothing you can do besides being within tackling distance will prevent it. Even then.... Food for thought, James Redmon Berkut #013 N97TX http://www.berkut13.com > It would seem to me that an alarm would be a better deterrent than a lock. > If he is going to ignore the alarm he still doesn't have to break your > canopy to get your avionics. ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 05:29:10 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alarm System From: "Matt Prather" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" Good point... The thief camera would catch the dumb ones (which, fortuneately, most are). As well, many GA airports now have security cams. A cockpit cam would make the detective work much easier... Like "Hmm, my airplane was broken into around 3AM this morning. Let me call the airport and talk to the manager and find out what cars were wandering around the ramp at that time" My hope, like others have expressed, is to make stealing my stuff inconvenient/risky enough that the average felon goes elsewhere to ply their trade. I fully realize that keeping the 'Gone in 60 seconds' crowd out of my stuff is pretty difficult. I think most of the bad guys aren't that good, however. MAP > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kevin Horton > > >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" >> >> >>> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" >>> >>> >> >>> >>> How is your airplane to be stored? We had a tie-down tenant on >>> our airport relate his own experience with stolen radios: >>> >>> Seems his C-182 was parked on a relatively unsecured field >>> (like ours at 1K1) and someone decided to take advantage of >>> the situation and removed all the radios from his airplane. >>snip >> >>Hi Bob, >> >>While I generally agree with everything you said, I think there >>are some technological solutions that might bear consideration. >> snip > must be a lot of dollars of avionics in that panel. It would seem a > simple job to put on some sort of Halloween mask while stealing the > loot. > > So, you might get a picture during the first robbery. But the next > ones to steal your stuff would be ready for your camera. > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 05:46:38 PM PST US From: "Rob Housman" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Alarm System --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rob Housman" The usual alarms don't do anything but annoy the neighbors (as already pointed out in another post) but there is an effective way to use an alarm. Put the noise INSIDE the cockpit, preferably a system capable of putting out at least 80dB - more is better - of continuous sound and make sure that the alarm and speaker and their wires are secured, as should be the source of power to the alarm. No thief will sit in the cockpit long enough to trace the wires especially if the wires are hard to find and are inside a metal conduit, let alone stay long enough to remove the expensive stuff. Of course if you leave your ANR headset in the cockpit (or the thief brings his own, perhaps stolen from another aircraft on the ramp) this probably won't work. Best regards, Rob Housman Europa XS Tri-Gear A070 Airframe complete Irvine, CA -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Chuck Jensen Subject: AeroElectric-List: Alarm System --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chuck Jensen Is there an alarm system available for exp. aircraft that has been used. I have a keyed door but, having just installed avionics that has the equivalent value of the GNP of a developing nation, I'd like to give potential thieves a better run for their money than some winky door lock. An audible alarm and potentially activation of strobe and canard flashers would seem to be a minimu. I assume some "good" solutions have been worked out but didn't find it in the archives. Ideas? Chuck, in East Tennessee Velocity XLRG ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 06:35:14 PM PST US From: Chad Robinson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alarm System --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chad Robinson James Redmon wrote: > Besides, if the guys is hell-bent on getting in or stealing the plane > itself...nothing you can do besides being within tackling distance will > prevent it. Even then.... And what if the thief is after the alarm itself? Those are worth at least $50. =) This sounds like a market for instrument panel "fakers", authentic-looking overlays with nothing behind them that sit in front of your real instrument panel and make it look like your BEST instrument is this classic Narco VTR-1: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=419&item=2244525508&rd=1 and your attitude gyro is this bad boy: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=2478740682&category=26436 You'd have to have enough of an overhang/surround to make it look authentic, but if you were clever about it... Let 'em wonder how you get it in the air at all! =) Regards, Chad