Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:00 AM - Re: starter wire run (James E. Clark)
2. 04:00 AM - Re: HELP needed digitrak and Garmin 196 (Larry Bowen)
3. 05:14 AM - Re: permanent magnet alternator question (Trampas)
4. 05:24 AM - Battery (hausding, sid)
5. 06:02 AM - Re: starter wire run (Jim Stone)
6. 06:26 AM - Re: permanent magnet alternator question (Dr. Peter Laurence)
7. 06:34 AM - Re: permanent magnet alternator question (Trampas)
8. 07:11 AM - Batteries (Eric M. Jones)
9. 09:42 AM - Re: ramblings........ (Jim Streit)
10. 08:39 PM - Re starting Rotax 582 & Odyssey battery (Rex & Jan Shaw)
11. 10:20 PM - Re: Re starting Rotax 582 & Odyssey battery (Scott, Ian)
Message 1
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| Subject: | starter wire run |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James E. Clark" <james@nextupventures.com>
Thanks. Here goes an opinion/comment ....
Since method #1 is known to work without problems, I would stick with it. In
a Rocket you won't notice the weight difference in wire.
Just curious ... Is there a solenoid at the battery as well so you don't
have such a long length of "hot" wire?? Or did I miss something?
James
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jim
> Stone
> Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 10:53 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: starter wire run
>
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Stone"
> <jrstone@insightbb.com>
>
> my question, your comment.
>
> [snip]
> > > Harmon Rocket
> > > Battery behind rear seat
> > > B&C starter
> > > B&C alternator
> > >
> > > I'm about to run the pos lead from the battery thru the firewall.
> > > I am aware of two ways to wire the starter.
> > >
> > > 1. The most common is to attach the pos lead from the battery to
> > > a starter solenoid with is mounted on the firewall, then forward
> > > to the starter. The alternator would have a separate lead going
> > > back to the bat side of the starter solenoid.
> > >
> > > 2. The second method is to eliminate the starter solenoid in
> > > method one and run the wire with no breaks all the way to the
> > > starter. From the starter it could then move a foot or so to the
> > > right to catch the alternator B lead. This method allows for
> > > fewer connections and a lot less #2 wire forward of the firewall.
> > > I'm assuming the solenoid attached to the starter would control
> > > the current going to the starter (following selection of the
> > > starter button).
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Jim
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | HELP needed digitrak and Garmin 196 |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" <Larry@BowenAero.com>
I'm glad you worked it out.
I'm left wondering if I have an older controller. Do you know how to tell?
Serial number perhaps? I'm days away from putting on the top skin over the
panel......
-
Larry Bowen
Larry@BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Werner Schneider [mailto:wernerschneider@compuserve.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 1:00 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: HELP needed digitrak and Garmin 196
>
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Werner Schneider"
> --> <wernerschneider@compuserve.com>
>
> Hello Larry,
>
> did search this message just yesterday, yes, it was figured
> out, the older controller of the digitrak had problems with
> the information of the 196, I've got a new controller from
> TruTrak last week and now it is working perfect, intercept,
> and then following my flightplan. And this all for no cost!!!
> Now this is real customer service, I even got the replacement
> beforehand! Juts added the altitude hold recently and is
> also working to all my expectation!
>
> Werner
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Larry Bowen" <Larry@BowenAero.com>
> To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: HELP needed digitrak and Garmin 196
>
>
> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen"
> <Larry@BowenAero.com>
> >
> > Werner -
> >
> > Did you figure this out? What was it?
> >
> > -
> > Larry Bowen
> > Larry@BowenAero.com
> > http://BowenAero.com
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Werner Schneider [mailto:wernerschneider@compuserve.com]
> > > Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 3:06 PM
> > > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> > > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: HELP needed digitrak and
> Garmin 196
> > >
> > >
> > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Werner Schneider"
> > > --> <wernerschneider@compuserve.com>
> > >
> > > Larry,
> > >
> > > I did as their directions say, but it's not working =(;o((
> > >
> > > And my plane is flying, just not according to the activated
> > > flightplan, just GPS bearings.
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > >
> > > Werner
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Larry Bowen" <Larry@BowenAero.com>
> > > To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
> > > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: HELP needed digitrak and
> Garmin 196
> > >
> > >
> > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen"
> > > <Larry@BowenAero.com>
> > > >
> > > > I have the same equipment, and believe it's functioning
> > > corrrectly --
> > > > but I'm not flying yet. I think I recall seeing in the
> > > documentaiton
> > > > that you have to be in motion for the nav/flightplan stuff to
> > > > work. Check the docs on their website. They have 196 specific
> > > > directions.
> > > >
> > > > -
> > > > Larry Bowen
> > > > Larry@BowenAero.com
> > > > http://BowenAero.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Werner Schneider [mailto:wernerschneider@compuserve.com]
> > > > > Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 10:34 AM
> > > > > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> > > > > Subject: AeroElectric-List: HELP needed digitrak and
> Garmin 196
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Werner Schneider"
> > > > > --> <wernerschneider@compuserve.com>
> > > > >
> > > > > Hello Folks,
> > > > >
> > > > > who has a digitrak and a Garmin 196 hooked up and can use the
> > > > > flightplan feature?
> > > > >
> > > > > I've configured both according the guidelines of TruTrak,
> > > I get the
> > > > > bearing info of the GPS, but never an activated
> > > flightplan shows up
> > > > > with the -F- symbol on the digitrak.
> > > > >
> > > > > Any advice much appreciated
> > > > >
> > > > > crossposted on Avionics list
> > > > >
> > > > > Werner (Glastar HB-YKP)
> >
> >
>
>
> ============
> Matronics Forums.
> ============
> ============
> http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm
> ============
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | permanent magnet alternator question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Trampas" <tstern@nc.rr.com>
For PM alternators there are two types of regulators, linear and non-linear.
Linear regulators can be further divided into series and shunt regulators.
A shut regulator dumps extra power. For example imagine a water pump station
where you want to control the output pressure of the pump. One method is to
connect up a pressure valve which links output of the pump back to the
input. Then when the pressure gets too high water from the output of the
pump gets diverted back to the input of the water pump. This is the way the
zener diode works. It dumps the power back to ground when voltage gets too
high. The problem with this solution is that you have to make sure your
valve/zener can handle the maximum flow (power) of the pump (PM alternator).
This gets really expensive with zeners as really high power zener's are
expensive.
The second type of linear regulator is called a series regulator. To use the
water example, imagine that rather than dumping the water back to the input
you let the pump run full blast, then have a valve connected between the
pump and your system, then as the system pressure drops you open the valve.
When the pressure on your system increases you close the valve. Thus the
valve is between the pump and your system, or in series. As you can imagine
the valve will get hot that is as you restrict the power you will cause it
to do work and thus generate heat.
The third type of regulator is a non-linear regulator. These regulators
operate similar to the series regulator expect the valve can only be fully
open or fully closed. Thus you turn the water on full blast or turn it fully
off. Well this creates a lot of water pulses on your water system, therefore
you need to put a bladder tank or filter on your system to remove the
pulses. The advantage here is that the valve will not get as hot as that it
is either off or on and never partially restricting the flow.
Back to your question, the zener system is a shut regulator while most of
the big fin regulators are series regulators. Eventually there will be some
manufactures that make non-linear regulators as that they have the potential
of wasting less energy.
Regards,
Trampas
www.sterntech.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim and
Lucy
Subject: AeroElectric-List: permanent magnet alternator question
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jim and Lucy <jpollard@mnsi.net>
I have a 33 year old motorcycle with a permanent
magnet alternator. It regulates the voltage with
a big zener diode and a rectifier. It will run
very well without a battery.
It seems that the new type of regulators which
are a mystery box with fins on them, work differently
somehow and will not work without a battery.
What is the difference between them and what makes
the new ones better. My guess is they dont make
zeners big enough for the high output of the newer
permanent magnet alternators and they had to
go with some other method of regulating but I dont
know.
My old example seems to be fairly reliable still
working after all these years. Lucas manufactrued.
The new ones seem good also. Got 2300 hours on one
on a small tractor.
thanks
Jim Pollard
Message 4
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "hausding, sid" <sidh@charter.net>
Rex and Jan,
I would be happy to research the costs and regulations of my buying and
sending you a battery from here in Michigan..........let me know the exact
size (dimensions), make and model of the battery and your city in Aus. to
figure the shipping. I can purchase and send it directly to you at my
costs.
I could also meet you in Oshkosh and deliver your new battery there.
:-)
Sid
-------------------------
Might be silly of me to suggest this, but have you tried just
disconnecting
the leads off the battery when not flying........sounds like you may have
something shorting out and draining the battery some. Or maybe the engine
isn't getting the charging circuit back to the battery good enough?
Just a thought.........
Sid
------------------------------------
I have a Kitfox IV Classic Speedster with Rotax 582. I live
in Australia. If I leave the plane say about 3 weeks without starting it
just won't start on it;s own battery. It appears to be swinging over OK but
I have come to the conclusion that it is just below the 300RPM ignition cut
in point. It is a 16AH wet cell motorcycle battery that's only 6 months old.
The complete Rotax 582 is also almost new at about 60 hours.
It appears that wet cells discharge fairly well left standing, although it
seems to have plenty of kick it must be down just enough to cause the
problem. If we jump start it from the car it fires up instantly and is OK
the rest of the day.
Now a Hawker Odyssey battery appears to be much improved over the standard
wet cell. It doesn't lose it's charge nearly as fast and is happier deep
cycling. It lasts longer, can be charged quicker, cranks the motor faster
etc. Our club put one in the Jabiru trainer and it lives up to all these
claims with flying colours. My problem is that out here in Australia the
cost of what we call a Model 700 and is the US PC625 is $265AU. In USA a
very usual price is only $89US. So I figured it had to worth importing one.
I have only been able to get one quote to do so but that was $210US
shipping. I find that hard to understand as the battery is supposed to be no
trouble to ship like a wet cell. It only weighs 6Kg's and $210US doesn't
seem to make sense to me comparing against other imports I have made.
I know I need one of these batteries, does anyone have any ideas how I can
get one here in Australia at a sensible price. I suppose I could try flying
my Kitfox over and picking one up !
Thanks Rex.
rexjan@bigpond.com
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: starter wire run |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" <jrstone@insightbb.com>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James E. Clark"
<james@nextupventures.com>
>
> Thanks. Here goes an opinion/comment ....
>
> Since method #1 is known to work without problems, I would stick with it.
In
> a Rocket you won't notice the weight difference in wire.
I concur with that logic. However, weight effects the Rocket just like any
other airplane.
>
> Just curious ... Is there a solenoid at the battery as well so you don't
> have such a long length of "hot" wire?? Or did I miss something?
Yes, I have two Odysee 680s each controlled by a contactor at the battery.
> James
Thanks for your opinion,
Jim Stone
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jim
> > Stone
> > Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 10:53 PM
> > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: starter wire run
> >
> >
> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Stone"
> > <jrstone@insightbb.com>
> >
> > my question, your comment.
> >
> > [snip]
>
> > > > Harmon Rocket
> > > > Battery behind rear seat
> > > > B&C starter
> > > > B&C alternator
> > > >
> > > > I'm about to run the pos lead from the battery thru the firewall.
> > > > I am aware of two ways to wire the starter.
> > > >
> > > > 1. The most common is to attach the pos lead from the battery to
> > > > a starter solenoid with is mounted on the firewall, then forward
> > > > to the starter. The alternator would have a separate lead going
> > > > back to the bat side of the starter solenoid.
> > > >
> > > > 2. The second method is to eliminate the starter solenoid in
> > > > method one and run the wire with no breaks all the way to the
> > > > starter. From the starter it could then move a foot or so to the
> > > > right to catch the alternator B lead. This method allows for
> > > > fewer connections and a lot less #2 wire forward of the firewall.
> > > > I'm assuming the solenoid attached to the starter would control
> > > > the current going to the starter (following selection of the
> > > > starter button).
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Jim
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: permanent magnet alternator question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dr. Peter Laurence" <dr.laurence@mbdi.org>
Trampas
Thanks for that explanation and education!
Could not have explained it better myself.
Great list
do not archive
Peter
----- Original Message ----- >
> For PM alternators there are two types of regulators, linear and
non-linear.
> Linear regulators can be further divided into series and shunt regulators.
>
> A shut regulator dumps extra power. For example imagine a water pump
station
> where you want to control the output pressure of the pump. One method is
to
> connect up a pressure valve which links output of the pump back to the
> input. Then when the pressure gets too high water from the output of the
> pump gets diverted back to the input of the water pump. This is the way
the
> zener diode works. It dumps the power back to ground when voltage gets too
> high. The problem with this solution is that you have to make sure your
> valve/zener can handle the maximum flow (power) of the pump (PM
alternator).
> This gets really expensive with zeners as really high power zener's are
> expensive.
>
> The second type of linear regulator is called a series regulator. To use
the
> water example, imagine that rather than dumping the water back to the
input
> you let the pump run full blast, then have a valve connected between the
> pump and your system, then as the system pressure drops you open the
valve.
> When the pressure on your system increases you close the valve. Thus the
> valve is between the pump and your system, or in series. As you can
imagine
> the valve will get hot that is as you restrict the power you will cause it
> to do work and thus generate heat.
>
> The third type of regulator is a non-linear regulator. These regulators
> operate similar to the series regulator expect the valve can only be fully
> open or fully closed. Thus you turn the water on full blast or turn it
fully
> off. Well this creates a lot of water pulses on your water system,
therefore
> you need to put a bladder tank or filter on your system to remove the
> pulses. The advantage here is that the valve will not get as hot as that
it
> is either off or on and never partially restricting the flow.
>
> Back to your question, the zener system is a shut regulator while most of
> the big fin regulators are series regulators. Eventually there will be
some
> manufactures that make non-linear regulators as that they have the
potential
> of wasting less energy.
>
> Regards,
> Trampas
>>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | permanent magnet alternator question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Trampas" <tstern@nc.rr.com>
Thanks for the compliment Peter!
This is a great list!
Regards,
Trampas
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dr. Peter
Laurence
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: permanent magnet alternator question
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dr. Peter Laurence"
<dr.laurence@mbdi.org>
Trampas
Thanks for that explanation and education!
Could not have explained it better myself.
Great list
do not archive
Peter
----- Original Message ----- >
> For PM alternators there are two types of regulators, linear and
non-linear.
> Linear regulators can be further divided into series and shunt regulators.
>
> A shut regulator dumps extra power. For example imagine a water pump
station
> where you want to control the output pressure of the pump. One method is
to
> connect up a pressure valve which links output of the pump back to the
> input. Then when the pressure gets too high water from the output of the
> pump gets diverted back to the input of the water pump. This is the way
the
> zener diode works. It dumps the power back to ground when voltage gets too
> high. The problem with this solution is that you have to make sure your
> valve/zener can handle the maximum flow (power) of the pump (PM
alternator).
> This gets really expensive with zeners as really high power zener's are
> expensive.
>
> The second type of linear regulator is called a series regulator. To use
the
> water example, imagine that rather than dumping the water back to the
input
> you let the pump run full blast, then have a valve connected between the
> pump and your system, then as the system pressure drops you open the
valve.
> When the pressure on your system increases you close the valve. Thus the
> valve is between the pump and your system, or in series. As you can
imagine
> the valve will get hot that is as you restrict the power you will cause it
> to do work and thus generate heat.
>
> The third type of regulator is a non-linear regulator. These regulators
> operate similar to the series regulator expect the valve can only be fully
> open or fully closed. Thus you turn the water on full blast or turn it
fully
> off. Well this creates a lot of water pulses on your water system,
therefore
> you need to put a bladder tank or filter on your system to remove the
> pulses. The advantage here is that the valve will not get as hot as that
it
> is either off or on and never partially restricting the flow.
>
> Back to your question, the zener system is a shut regulator while most of
> the big fin regulators are series regulators. Eventually there will be
some
> manufactures that make non-linear regulators as that they have the
potential
> of wasting less energy.
>
> Regards,
> Trampas
>>
>
>
Message 8
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
For Hawker batteries in Australia see:
http://www.powerware.com/DC_Power/Batteries.asp
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
Phone (508) 764-2072
Email: emjones@charter.net
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: ramblings........ |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jim Streit <wooody04@bellsouth.net>
the battery goes dead!!!!!
Bruce Gray wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
>
>What happens when the engine is not running and the systems are powered
>by the battery?
>
>Bruce
>www.glasair.org
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dj
>Merrill
>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ramblings........
>
>
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dj Merrill
><deej@thayer.dartmouth.edu>
>
>Bruce Gray wrote:
>
>
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray"
>>
>>
><Bruce@glasair.org>
>
>
>>Blame it on Bush or Halliburton.
>>
>>Bruce
>>www.glasair.org
>>
>>
>
> Hmm, well, at least on this list
>Bush is generating enough static to be causing
>the problem... *grin*
>
> But seriously... ?
>
>-Dj
>
>
>==
>==
>==
>==
>
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re starting Rotax 582 & Odyssey battery |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rex & Jan Shaw" <rexjan@bigpond.com>
Thanks guys for your comments. I am a retired electronics tech and have
checked such things as leakage with master off etc. Also checked charging
and this is verified anyway by only trouble for first start for the day etc.
If I suspected anything other than the battery charicteristics it would be
the starter or a worn or excessive clearance rotary valve housing.
Thanks also re comments on importing. This is the way I am pursuing. Thanks
for the technical names of the Odyssey battery this might help me find an
equivalent although I favour the Odyssey as it is a known proven fact this
is better than a standard wet cell. Anyone that doesn't accept that should
do some checking before buying their next battery. I don't mean just
accepting manufacturers claims. Actually the battery I want is known in USA
as PC625 but the same battery is sold in Australia as Model 700. I suspect
this is part of covering their tracks to get away with $265AU here. At the
moment I am looking at $57.32 US. It's just a question of the shipping and I
am hopeful I will get some sense here.
My conclusions are that the starter and rotary valve are probably OK
mainly because it's all only 60 hours old. Studying wet cell behaviour adds
to my conclusions that it is the battery. Wet cells lose charge quickly
standing idle. The Odyssey takes much longer. Odyssey also cranks much
better due to type of cell. Of interest is that the next day or so after
flying it is still fine. Three weeks or so though is a different matter.
Also the Ducatti CDI's don't fire until 300RPM and it seems that this is the
basis of the problem. The battery only needs to be very slightly less than
perfect and we are cranking at what looks like OK but in fact I suspect
below 300 RPM. In fact I think I am starting to pick the slight difference.
Am I falsely biassed towards the Odyssey ? Well no I don't think so. I
can see with my own eyes what one does in our club Jabiru trainer apart from
studying cell charicteristics and Odyssey owners comments.
Regards Rex.
rexjan@bigpond.com
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re starting Rotax 582 & Odyssey battery |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Scott, Ian" <ian_scott@commander.com>
I paid about $220 for mine is ie a 700 form Nrg automotive in Rydenmere 0296381037
also have you called Jabiru on 0741551778 and asked where and for what price they
get theirs?
Ian Scott (with an Odessey in my car and Jabiru J400)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Rex &
Jan Shaw
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re starting Rotax 582 & Odyssey battery
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rex & Jan Shaw" <rexjan@bigpond.com>
Thanks guys for your comments. I am a retired electronics tech and have
checked such things as leakage with master off etc. Also checked charging
and this is verified anyway by only trouble for first start for the day etc.
If I suspected anything other than the battery charicteristics it would be
the starter or a worn or excessive clearance rotary valve housing.
Thanks also re comments on importing. This is the way I am pursuing. Thanks
for the technical names of the Odyssey battery this might help me find an
equivalent although I favour the Odyssey as it is a known proven fact this
is better than a standard wet cell. Anyone that doesn't accept that should
do some checking before buying their next battery. I don't mean just
accepting manufacturers claims. Actually the battery I want is known in USA
as PC625 but the same battery is sold in Australia as Model 700. I suspect
this is part of covering their tracks to get away with $265AU here. At the
moment I am looking at $57.32 US. It's just a question of the shipping and I
am hopeful I will get some sense here.
My conclusions are that the starter and rotary valve are probably OK
mainly because it's all only 60 hours old. Studying wet cell behaviour adds
to my conclusions that it is the battery. Wet cells lose charge quickly
standing idle. The Odyssey takes much longer. Odyssey also cranks much
better due to type of cell. Of interest is that the next day or so after
flying it is still fine. Three weeks or so though is a different matter.
Also the Ducatti CDI's don't fire until 300RPM and it seems that this is the
basis of the problem. The battery only needs to be very slightly less than
perfect and we are cranking at what looks like OK but in fact I suspect
below 300 RPM. In fact I think I am starting to pick the slight difference.
Am I falsely biassed towards the Odyssey ? Well no I don't think so. I
can see with my own eyes what one does in our club Jabiru trainer apart from
studying cell charicteristics and Odyssey owners comments.
Regards Rex.
rexjan@bigpond.com
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