---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 06/04/04: 41 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:27 AM - Re: B&C LR-3C question (Werner Schneider) 2. 04:57 AM - Facet fuel pumps - foam solvent? (Finn Lassen) 3. 05:09 AM - Re: Re: Power Diode Drops (Trampas) 4. 05:16 AM - Re: B&C LR-3C question (F1Rocket@comcast.net) 5. 05:20 AM - Re: Re: Power Diode Drops (Brian Lloyd) 6. 05:22 AM - battery capacity remaining (Brian Lloyd) 7. 05:41 AM - Main Bus Feed (Jim Stone) 8. 06:51 AM - 14V to 28V inverter? (Crapse, Richard W (Rick), WCS) 9. 08:17 AM - Re: B&C LR-3C question (James Redmon) 10. 08:17 AM - Re: Re: Power Diode Drops (Paul Messinger) 11. 08:39 AM - Re: Re: Power Diode Drops (Brian Lloyd) 12. 09:42 AM - Re: Rocker Switch Problems-Followup (Scott Diffenbaugh) 13. 10:00 AM - Re: 14V to 28V inverter? (Brian Lloyd) 14. 10:05 AM - Re: 14V to 28V inverter? (Jerzy Krasinski) 15. 10:13 AM - Re: Re: Power Diode Drops (Brian Lloyd) 16. 10:28 AM - Re: 14V to 28V inverter? (Jerzy Krasinski) 17. 10:33 AM - Re: Re: Power Diode Drops (Werner Schneider) 18. 10:33 AM - Re: Re: Power Diode Drops (Werner Schneider) 19. 10:33 AM - Re: Re: Power Diode Drops (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 20. 10:40 AM - Re: Rocker Switch Problems-Followup (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 21. 11:25 AM - Re: Power Diode Drops (jmfpublic@comcast.net) 22. 11:40 AM - Re: Re: Power Diode Drops (echristley@nc.rr.com) 23. 01:42 PM - Mr. Brain OT (Eric M. Jones) 24. 02:24 PM - Re: Mr. Brain OT (Harley) 25. 02:28 PM - Re: Mr. Brain OT (David Glauser) 26. 02:32 PM - Re: Re: Power Diode Drops (Paul Messinger) 27. 02:45 PM - Re: Mr. Brain OT (Chad Robinson) 28. 02:46 PM - Re: Digital Music in the Cockpit (frequent flyer) 29. 03:01 PM - Re: Re: Power Diode Drops (Paul Messinger) 30. 03:01 PM - Re: Re: Power Diode Drops (Paul Messinger) 31. 03:11 PM - Re: Re: Power Diode Drops (Phil Birkelbach) 32. 03:21 PM - Re: Digital Music in the Cockpit (Chad Robinson) 33. 05:22 PM - Re: Re: Power Diode Drops (Kevin Horton) 34. 06:12 PM - Re: Re: Power Diode Drops (jmfpublic@comcast.net) 35. 07:38 PM - Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 32 Msgs - 06/03/04 (Dave Ford) 36. 08:13 PM - Re: Digital Music in the Cockpit (frequent flyer) 37. 08:13 PM - Re: Digital Music in the Cockpit (frequent flyer) 38. 08:31 PM - Re: Digital Music in the Cockpit (richard@riley.net) 39. 08:44 PM - Re: B&C LR-3C question (Emrath) 40. 09:06 PM - Re: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 32 Msgs - 06/03/04 (Chad Robinson) 41. 09:26 PM - Re: B&C LR-3C question (James Redmon) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:27:05 AM PST US From: "Werner Schneider" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: B&C LR-3C question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Werner Schneider" Hello James, Bob did post a picture for that and I'm running this way without any problems, a 220 ohm over the diode and a 220 in series direction regulator. I will send you in a direct mail the sketch (jpg). Werner ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Redmon" Subject: AeroElectric-List: B&C LR-3C question > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James Redmon" > > All, > > I was working with B&C on this, but the gentleman is out of pocket for a > couple weeks and thought one of you might know the answer. > > I am using a LED instead of an incandescent lamp for the OV light. The > issue I discussed with B&C was that the LED never goes out...it stays on > (dimly) even when the regulator is turned off. When I turn on the regulator > (battery only) the LED does blink properly. He mentioned that the regulator > bleeds a little current on the lamp pin all the time - not enough to > illuminate a lamp, but a LED still glows slightly. > > He mentioned a fix of placing a 520-ohm resistor between Pin 5 (the lamp > lead) and another pin on the regulator. I have misplaced my notes and can > not remember specifically which other pin to connect the resistor to. > > Does someone happen to know which one I should use? If not, I can always > wait a > couple of weeks until Tim gets back. > > Thanks! > > James Redmon > Berkut #013 N97TX > http://www.berkut13.com > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:57:08 AM PST US From: Finn Lassen Subject: AeroElectric-List: Facet fuel pumps - foam solvent? 0.1 HTML_TITLE_EMPTY BODY: HTML title contains no text --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Finn Lassen I took one of my Facet fuel pumps apart this evening. One of the square solid state types. Sunday nigth when I wanted to go fly one of the pumps didn't when I turned on the power. After fiddeling a bit with it it started up. I had also noticed occasional fuel pressure drops (very brief) over the last few months. This lead me to believe that the pump was intermittently bad. I'm very impressed with the construction of these pumps. All of the electronics are embedded completely in foam. It's hard to see how one of these pumps could fail electrically. I suppose that heat cycling could lead to a bad connection on the circuit board even though all components are held firmly in place by the foam. Of course it's impossible to inspect the electronics because of the foam. Anybody here know of a solvent that will dissolve the foam and not harm the electronic components and circuit board? Finn ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:09:52 AM PST US From: "Trampas" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Power Diode Drops --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Trampas" Personally I stand with Brian on this one, that is wasted power is wasted power, it in my opinion is like throwing extra weight in the plane. I personally like to design things for at least 2x margin. That is if a circuit breaker is rated at 5Amps then the wiring should be able to handle at least 10Amps continuously. So lets say that you have a silicon (spelled it right this time) diode and running 5Amps. From Paul's numbers: Amps Silicon Schottky 5A 4.3W 1.6W 10A 8.9W 3.4W Now I do not know about other devices by my engine monitor (www.sterntech.com) takes about 10W of power. Thus at 10A your wasting almost as much power as the engine monitor takes. To put it another way if you have a 10A alternator, at 10A E-bus draw you would be wasting 6% of the alternator's power. At 5A and silicon you would be wasting about 3% of the alternator's power. Another reason it is good to use Schottky diodes is that you will most likely have your engine monitor hanging off the E-bus. As such your battery voltage measurement will but low by about 0.9V for a silicon diode. Of course my engine monitor lets you calibrate the voltage measurement to compensate but others will not. Brian, sorry about misspelling your name, fingers are faster than brain more often than I like to admit. Regards, Trampas Stern Stern Technologies 4321 Waterwheel Dr Raleigh NC 27606 919-832-8441 Ext. 12 (voice) 919-832-8441 (fax) www.sterntech.com tstern@sterntech.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Power Diode Drops --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 09:37 PM 6/3/2004 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" > >My numbers are similar to Paul's, for the 276-1185 diode bridge I got from >Radio Shack versus the IR 100BGQ-030 Schottky, the numbers are: > >Load Radio Shack Schottky >5A 0.86 Vf 0.32 Vf >10A 0.89 0.34 >11A 0.91 0.35 >16A 0.94 0.35 > >At any point the Schottky ran far cooler than the RS diode. > >The energy left in the battery is extremely important. . . This is a moot point. The battery is never used to supply normal path current. The only time the diode is in service is while the alternator is running and main bus voltage is 13.8 to 14.6 volts. People keep tossing around these gawd-awful power dissipations as significant to battery-only endurance when the diode carries no current during alternator-out operations. Further, anyone running an e-bus load of more than 5 amps continuous through ANY diode may be running the wrong architecture. > One of the techniques >that is now being used in battery operated devices is to use circuitry that >jacks up the output voltage to whatever you want while it sucks the >batteries flat. Example---a single 1.5 Volt cell drives circuitry that >produces 9V in a transistor- battery-sized package with flat discharge until >dead. MUCH greater capacity, MUCH lower cost. Cool.... . . . completely inapplicable in this instance. Battery only ops tie all e-bus equipment directly to the battery. E-bus loads should provide useful operation down to 10.5 volts (battery capacity less than 5%). Jacking up the parts count to squeeze that last 5% out of the battery is an confession to having undersized the battery and/or subjecting it to poor preventative maintenance. >So the Schottky can use much more of the energy contained in the battery. >That energy is sitting there at a great penalty in weight if you don't use >it. Someone should figure this out--it's probably a pound or more. > >This is not a case of what Brian calls "angels dancing on the head of a >pin". This is not a subtle difference at all. Diode drop and wattage could be important if folks choose to use it in a manner for which it was never suggested or intended. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:16:24 AM PST US From: F1Rocket@comcast.net Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: B&C LR-3C question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: F1Rocket@comcast.net Ditto that. Here's the wiring diagram. http://f1rocket.home.comcast.net/Alternator.pdf Randy F1 Rocket. > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Werner Schneider" > > > Hello James, > > Bob did post a picture for that and I'm running this way without any > problems, a 220 ohm over the diode and a 220 in series direction regulator. > > I will send you in a direct mail the sketch (jpg). > > Werner > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Redmon" > To: > Subject: AeroElectric-List: B&C LR-3C question > > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James Redmon" > > > > > All, > > > > I was working with B&C on this, but the gentleman is out of pocket for a > > couple weeks and thought one of you might know the answer. > > > > I am using a LED instead of an incandescent lamp for the OV light. The > > issue I discussed with B&C was that the LED never goes out...it stays on > > (dimly) even when the regulator is turned off. When I turn on the > regulator > > (battery only) the LED does blink properly. He mentioned that the > regulator > > bleeds a little current on the lamp pin all the time - not enough to > > illuminate a lamp, but a LED still glows slightly. > > > > He mentioned a fix of placing a 520-ohm resistor between Pin 5 (the lamp > > lead) and another pin on the regulator. I have misplaced my notes and can > > not remember specifically which other pin to connect the resistor to. > > > > Does someone happen to know which one I should use? If not, I can always > > wait a > > couple of weeks until Tim gets back. > > > > Thanks! > > > > James Redmon > > Berkut #013 N97TX > > http://www.berkut13.com > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:20:29 AM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Power Diode Drops --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > This is a moot point. The battery is never used to supply normal > path current. The only time the diode is in service is while the alternator > is running and main bus voltage is 13.8 to 14.6 volts. People keep > tossing around these gawd-awful power dissipations as significant > to battery-only endurance when the diode carries no current during > alternator-out operations. Further, anyone running an e-bus load of > more than 5 amps continuous through ANY diode may be running the wrong > architecture. You are right and I pointed that out last night. But I have two additional points to make. Some people are building airplanes that are engineering "works of art." Their goal is to craft something that is as close to their image of perfection as they can achieve. They do not use cast aluminum parts where machined billet aluminum parts are available. The Schottky diode is a better diode for the purposes described herein. Yes a standard silicon rectifier is "good enough" but people want to go beyond "good enough". You only have to look at their wiring or firewall forward to see what I mean. OTOH, If the MTBF were higher for the silicon diode I would agree with you instantly. First and foremost it is about safety and reliability. And as for "5A is good enough", it may not be. I may find that to complete a flight comfortably I will want to turn on more bits of avionics to safely and legally complete an approach. For that reason I want all my avionics on the e-buss. Each one has an on/off switch so I can turn off what I am not using to conserve energy in the battery but in the last 10 minutes or so I may want everything. Arbitrarily limiting the e-buss to 5A seems a bit limiting to me. And, no, that does not include the landing lights. :-) -- Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201 http://www.lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802 +1.340.998.9447 (voice) +1.360.838.9669 (fax) There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest. A good citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:22:41 AM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: AeroElectric-List: battery capacity remaining --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd One thing I have not seen discussed here are battery energy remaining meters. These are devices that tell you how much energy is remaining in the battery and how long the battery will battery will provide power at the current drain. These are common devices in boats, RVs, and people living on alternative energy systems (solar and wind power). Why not in aircraft? -- Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201 http://www.lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802 +1.340.998.9447 (voice) +1.360.838.9669 (fax) There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest. A good citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:41:57 AM PST US From: "Jim Stone" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Main Bus Feed --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" Hi Guys, I'm building a Harmon Rocket II and have two 17ah batts in the baggage compartment each with their own battery contactor. From the contactor, I ran #2 wire fwd thru the firewall, some ten feet or so, to the starter contactor. My Main and Endurance busses will be located on the cockpit side of the FW which is a very short distance from the starter contactor and main battery wire. Question 1: Would it be better to home run another large wire (#4 or 6 awg) from the battery contactor as shown in dwg 11 to the main bus, or pick up the shortest route, directly from the starter contactor (hot side of course), using a much smaller wire (8 awg or so). The main potential problem with connecting to the starter contactor is it is on the engine side of the FW and in the event of a fire, I would loose my feed to the Main bus as the wire burns. By the way, the main batt wires both + and - run thru a stainless steel handrail 90 deg fitting on the FW so there is no bolt thru the FW for the + battery lead. Question 2: If I go with the home run method, do you recommend using a different route for the wire within the aircraft or run it along side the #2 +and- wires? Thanks, ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:51:27 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: 14V to 28V inverter? From: "Crapse, Richard W (Rick), WCS" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Crapse, Richard W (Rick), WCS" I would like to know more about that. That would give me a box to power other avionics off my bus. Details, please. Rick Cozy 3 #40 - Building the strakes. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:17:36 AM PST US From: "James Redmon" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: B&C LR-3C question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James Redmon" Thanks all!! This is different information than I received from Tim at B&C...but makes much more sense to me. This should work fine. What a great group! James Redmon Berkut #013 N97TX http://www.berkut13.com Do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: B&C LR-3C question > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: F1Rocket@comcast.net > > Ditto that. Here's the wiring diagram. > > http://f1rocket.home.comcast.net/Alternator.pdf > > Randy > F1 Rocket. > > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Werner Schneider" > > > > > > Hello James, > > > > Bob did post a picture for that and I'm running this way without any > > problems, a 220 ohm over the diode and a 220 in series direction regulator. > > > > I will send you in a direct mail the sketch (jpg). > > > > Werner ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:17:36 AM PST US From: "Paul Messinger" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Power Diode Drops --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Paul Messinger" Bob and Brian Points to consider Approximately 1/2V is not trivial depending on your wiring design. An e-bus load thru a diode is a very common design. At a battery load of 2-10 amps you get more power out of your Xponder and or Com with 12v vs 11.5v and your battery will be usable longer. Eventually the battery dies but its end of life voltage is always effectively 1/2V lower with the subject diode which can be significant time in flight duration depending on the load. Consider the data for an Odyssey battery. 1/2V is 40% of the total energy. From the Odyssey specifications the following. 12.3V = 60% state of charge 11.8V = 20% state of charge. Note the above voltages are for a battery that is unloaded and thus not directly applicable. Loaded voltages will be lower and load dependent. I reference this info to illustrate the point that 1/2V is not a small difference in usable energy at end of life voltage as noted later. As the data is nearly linear you get a 40% loss in usable capacity regardless of where you define end of life voltage. There is only 10% left at 11.7V plus what ever diode drop is in play. I do not know about the rest of you, but I like the extra voltage to my com and xponder where the added voltage can (and typically does)increase power output and perhaps make the difference in being heard and "seen on the radar". With battery end of charge around 11.6V a "normal diode has dropped the e-bus voltage to below 11.0V. Even equipment that "meets" DO-160 may not be required to below that V as DO-160 has no requirement for equipment to even work below 11.0V unless it was specifically designed to do so and that is optional. So lets assume your com requires 11.0V minimum and that it does meet DO-160. If you use a Radio shack diode vs a Schottky you can shorten your time to the end of life (11.0V e-bus ) with a 4.0 amp average load by 1/4 or more. Thats a lot! Sure none of us ever expect to be in a case where we need every drop of energy from a battery to make it safely to the airport, but why not design a system that is simple (no extra switches to bypass diodes) KISS and use the best part for the job not just what can be made to work under normal usage. Also reducing the heat load (typically behind the panel) is not insignificant to me. It never ceases to amaze me that people will spend $50,000 on a avionics package and then quibble over the difference in the lowest cost battery or a more expensive diode that improves emergency operations. Paul ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:39:36 AM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Power Diode Drops --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd Trampas wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Trampas" > > Personally I stand with Brian on this one, that is wasted power is wasted > power, it in my opinion is like throwing extra weight in the plane. It is purist thing. > Brian, sorry about misspelling your name, fingers are faster than brain more > often than I like to admit. No worries. I get a chuckle out of it. Heck, my nickname in elementary school was "Mr. Brain". I was the nerdy guy who brought books on rocket engine design or the Radio Amateur's Handbook to school instead of the Hardy Boys. -- Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201 http://www.lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802 +1.340.998.9447 (voice) +1.360.838.9669 (fax) There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest. A good citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:42:23 AM PST US From: "Scott Diffenbaugh" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Rocker Switch Problems-Followup --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Scott Diffenbaugh" Bob, Thanks for the feedback. You asked which datasheet I was looking at. The copy that was faxed to me that shows a schematic of the 6 power terminals is: http://catalog.sensing.honeywell.com/printfriendly.asp?FAM=tr&PN=AML34FBA4AC 01 --- it no longer is a valid URL as they apparently deleted it while they are correcting it. Honeywell's technical rep Wendy Domino's e-mail which was posted on Aircraft Engraver's web site showed the datasheet info you cite but for the "AC" code stated "2-pole six terminals". I had not seen the datasheet you cite below, which apparently is the correct one, but I suppose one needs to know that one form A switch only has 2 terminals. I checked out the "TP" switches. They would require a major rework of my panel. Looks like I will have the operators re-engraved on the upper half and live with it. Thanks again. Scott Time: 12:23:01 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Rocker Switch Problems --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 07:26 AM 6/1/2004 -0700, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Scott Diffenbaugh" > > >Just received my engraved rocker switch operators (plastic covers) for my >illuminated Honeywell (Micro Switch) Double Pole AML34FBA4AC01 (15A >resistive @ 12v DC) panel switches. Since the switches are low on the panel, >I had the engraving done on the lower half per Aircraft Engravers >recommendation. Turns out the internal light bulb only illuminates one half >of the operator, which happens to be the top half with the switch mounted >conventionally (push top for on and bottom for off). Any suggestions? > > There is a lot more to the story, so if you are interested, read on. >Aircraft Engravers sells and engraves the operators (plastic covers), but >does not sell the switches, thus refers you to a distributor. Prior to >ordering same, I obtained Honeywell's data sheet showing six terminals with >ON-ON positions, i.e. the switch could be rotated 180 degrees, placing the >light bulb on either the upper or lower face. Which data sheet are you looking at? The Honeywell website data sheet I found is http://content.honeywell.com/sensing/prodinfo/manual/catalog/c30035.pdf If you dissect the part number cited above we deduce as follows: AML34F = rectangular 1-lamp circuit B = black A = no lamp installed 4 = .187" solder/fast-on terminal AC = two form A switches 01 = operating action is ON-OFF (maintained in both states) If the switch has six terminals, then perhaps two of them are not used since the "A" value for lamp suggests there is no lamp installed in the parts you have. You need a "C" part for 12v lamp, or "E" for a 28v lamp. > I also received a copy of >Honeywell's technical representative's e-mail confirming the switch has 6 >terminals. They have now confirmed that both pieces of information are >incorrect and in fact the switch has 4 switch terminals (2 pole single >throw) plus an independent light circuit. That jives with the data sheet I've cited above. > When I brought this to Aircraft >Engravers attention, they were dumfounded, having engraved hundreds of >operators on the lower half with no mention of my problem. They suggested I >post this message. Am I overlooking the obvious? The data sheet does indicate that only the upper half of the switch is illuminated. > Options considered so far: > Engrave upper half - difficult to read upper half when > switch is in OFF >position due to location on bottom of panel. > > Install switch upside down - this would work but I am > afraid of a >potential "John Denver" result and I don't think the FAA inspector would >like it. More importantly, would YOU like it? How hard is it to get one of these switches apart? You might be able to modify them to put the lamp on the other side . . . better yet, while you're hammer-n-saw'n on them, change over to white or other color leds for illumination. > Find another DPDT ON-ON switch with 6 terminals- Panel is > cut, final >wiring near complete (except for switches), can't find a switch the same >size. > > Modify the switch to let bulb light reach the bottom half > - cut and >drilled the switch mechanism to no avail. Light won't transfer. Hmmm . . . that answers that question . . . > Use Honeywell's 3 amp switch with 6 terminals and add > solid state relays-I >would need 7 relays (out of 12) and would like to avoid the complexity. > > Turn on cockpit light - Everything on panel is internally > lit. No plans >for a cockpit light other than battery backup flashlight. You could go with non-illuminated switches and illuminate a reverse engraved overlay panel. Leds could be used to light this up as well. I saw some Glasair panels years ago that used the TP series rockers from Honeywell. These feature separate operators that you can buy in a translucent white, engrave front faces, and back-light with LEDs or other small lamps. Best yet, the TP series rocker switches are available in all the special functions including progressive transfer. See: http://catalog.sensing.honeywell.com/pdbdownload/images/12pa5.series.chart.1 .pdf http://catalog.sensing.honeywell.com/printfriendly.asp?FAM=tr&PN=102TP81-10 >I would appreciate anyone's thoughts on this matter. This is an excellent illustration that supports Nuckolls' love affair with toggle switches. There are REALLY great looking products out there that will certainly dress up your panel . . . but at the end of the day, the TASK of opening one set of contacts in favor of closing another set of contacts to make something electrical happen is the same whether it's a $5 toggle switch or a $50, back-lighted rocker. Bob . . . Scott Diffenbaugh diff@foothill.net ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:00:21 AM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 14V to 28V inverter? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd Crapse, Richard W (Rick), WCS wrote: > I would like to know more about that. That would give me a box to power other avionics off my bus. Details, please. I used a little boost-type inverter chip from Maxim, the MAX669. Here is the application note: http://www.maxim-ic.com/appnotes.cfm/appnote_number/910 This is great for turning a 28V gyro into a 14V gyro. I found that I could buy overhauled 28V gyros much cheaper than I could buy 14V gyros so this is what I did to power them from the 14V system.. This is not a universal 28V power supply since it can only source about 1A. There are high-power step-up converters available if you care to look. The company that makes the battery equalizer I use on my boat (I need both 12V and 24V from my boat battery bank) also makes high-power step-up and step down converters. See http://www.surepower.com/Products/dc2dc.asp and http://www.surepower.com/pdf/ebr_dcdc.pdf -- Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201 http://www.lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802 +1.340.998.9447 (voice) +1.360.838.9669 (fax) There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest. A good citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:05:49 AM PST US From: "Jerzy Krasinski" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 14V to 28V inverter? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jerzy Krasinski" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Crapse, Richard W (Rick), WCS" Subject: AeroElectric-List: 14V to 28V inverter? > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Crapse, Richard W (Rick), WCS" > > I would like to know more about that. That would give me a box to power other avionics off my bus. Details, please. > > Rick > Cozy 3 #40 - Building the strakes. > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:13:20 AM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Power Diode Drops --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd Paul Messinger wrote: > Approximately 1/2V is not trivial depending on your wiring design. An e-bus > load thru a diode is a very common design. At a battery load of 2-10 amps > you get more power out of your Xponder and or Com with 12v vs 11.5v and your > battery will be usable longer. Eventually the battery dies but its end of > life voltage is always effectively 1/2V lower with the subject diode which > can be significant time in flight duration depending on the load. The point that your xpdr and comm will transmit with higher power is a good one. Since you will directly connect your e-buss to the battery in the case of alternator failure, the end-point voltage relative to diode drop is a non-issue. -- Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201 http://www.lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802 +1.340.998.9447 (voice) +1.360.838.9669 (fax) There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest. A good citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:28:55 AM PST US From: "Jerzy Krasinski" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 14V to 28V inverter? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jerzy Krasinski" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Crapse, Richard W (Rick), WCS" Subject: AeroElectric-List: 14V to 28V inverter? > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Crapse, Richard W (Rick), WCS" > > I would like to know more about that. That would give me a box to power other avionics off my bus. Details, please. > > Rick > Cozy 3 #40 - Building the strakes. Richard, They are quite expensive. But one can use a converter from trucks and these are far cheaper. Some trucks have -12V system. All radios etc.require +12V, so they make -12V to +12V converters providing lots of current. These converters can be used as +12V to +24V converters. Just connect -12V terminal of the converter to the ground, connect ground of the converter to +12V of the system, and you will have +24V at the +12V terminal of the converter. This way you put the 12V output of the converter in series with your battery and get 24 volts on the output. Remember that the box of the converter is now at 12V potential, which is not a big deal in a plastic plane. In a metal plane that would be scary, and I would recommend to reconnect the box inside the converter to the -12V terminal which is now the ground, of course disconnecting the old connection to the former ground of the converter. I use Astron model 1515-18, which is 18 amps max output converter. I have a plastic plane but I reconnected the box to -12V terminal i.e. to the real ground of the plane. That was quite easy, I had to put isolating washers under four screws. I got the converter on ebay for $30. A new one is a few times more expensive, I forgot the price. Worth to say that it is not a bad converter, it holds the output voltage, and it does not take much current on the input if the output is not loaded, unlike many others that swallow lots of current loaded or not. Jerzy forum is sponsored entirely through the Contributions > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:33:06 AM PST US From: "Werner Schneider" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Power Diode Drops --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Werner Schneider" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Messinger" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Power Diode Drops > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Paul Messinger" > > Bob and Brian > > Points to consider > > Approximately 1/2V is not trivial depending on your wiring design. An e-bus > load thru a diode is a very common design. At a battery load of 2-10 amps > you get more power out of your Xponder and or Com with 12v vs 11.5v and your > battery will be usable longer. Eventually the battery dies but its end of > life voltage is always effectively 1/2V lower with the subject diode which > can be significant time in flight duration depending on the load. > > Consider the data for an Odyssey battery. 1/2V is 40% of the total energy. > From the Odyssey specifications the following. > > 12.3V = 60% state of charge > 11.8V = 20% state of charge. > > Note the above voltages are for a battery that is unloaded and thus not > directly applicable. Loaded voltages will be lower and load dependent. I > reference this info to illustrate the point that 1/2V is not a small > difference in usable energy at end of life voltage as noted later. > > As the data is nearly linear you get a 40% loss in usable capacity > regardless of where you define end of life voltage. There is only 10% left > at 11.7V plus what ever diode drop is in play. I do not know about the rest > of you, but I like the extra voltage to my com and xponder where the added > voltage can (and typically does)increase power output and perhaps make the > difference in being heard and "seen on the radar". > > With battery end of charge around 11.6V a "normal diode has dropped the > e-bus voltage to below 11.0V. Even equipment that "meets" DO-160 may not be > required to below that V as DO-160 has no requirement for equipment to even > work below 11.0V unless it was specifically designed to do so and that is > optional. > > So lets assume your com requires 11.0V minimum and that it does meet DO-160. > If you use a Radio shack diode vs a Schottky you can shorten your time to > the end of life (11.0V e-bus ) with a 4.0 amp average load by 1/4 or more. > Thats a lot! > > Sure none of us ever expect to be in a case where we need every drop of > energy from a battery to make it safely to the airport, but why not design a > system that is simple (no extra switches to bypass diodes) KISS and use the > best part for the job not just what can be made to work under normal usage. > > Also reducing the heat load (typically behind the panel) is not > insignificant to me. > > It never ceases to amaze me that people will spend $50,000 on a avionics > package and then quibble over the difference in the lowest cost battery or a > more expensive diode that improves emergency operations. > > Paul > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:33:06 AM PST US From: "Werner Schneider" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Power Diode Drops --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Werner Schneider" Hello all, I can agree on the fact, that the Schotky is the better diode, but: -the argument of lower voltage and saving enegy and having more power available on the e-bus is only partly true, because: 1. when the alternator is running (feed through main bus, voltage drop occurs) we have a main bus voltage of 13.4V and the voltage on the e.bus is high enough with both diodes. 2. when the alternator fails the e-bus is feeded through the e-bus switch directly and we do not go through the diode hence no voltage drop, no more energy available as diode not used. What I can agree: 1. due to the higher voltage drop more heat is disipated which could cause some problems in narrow spaced paneld. 2. due to the higher voltage drop in an alternator on situation we do need to produce more energy (from the alternator) voltage drop diff 0.5V with 5A load this accounts for 0.18A my ship has a standard load of around 15 A during cruise so this is around 1.2% lost energy (with 10A on the e-bus it would be 2.4%). However, each should be happy with the system he wants to achieve, both types are for sure a good choice, so it's up to you to decide. My 2 cents Werner (Glastar VFR) ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:33:14 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Power Diode Drops --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 08:11 AM 6/4/2004 -0700, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Paul Messinger" > >Bob and Brian > >Points to consider > >Approximately 1/2V is not trivial depending on your wiring design. An e-bus >load thru a diode is a very common design. At a battery load of 2-10 amps >you get more power out of your Xponder and or Com with 12v vs 11.5v and your >battery will be usable longer. Eventually the battery dies but its end of >life voltage is always effectively 1/2V lower with the subject diode which >can be significant time in flight duration depending on the load. . . . you're still missing the point. The manner in which an e-bus normal feed diode is used never causes BATTERY energy to flow through the diode to the E-bus. The ONLY time the e-bus normal feed diode is expected to route power to the e-bus is while the ALTERNATOR is functioning and the main bus is operating at 13.8 or greater. Under these conditions, performance differences for e-bus powered devices for 13.3 volts versus 12.8 volts is indeed trivial. Further, when you have a 40A alternator providing power (560 watts), then the difference between tossing off 5 watts (Schottky diode) versus 10 watts (PN junction diode) is also trivial and this assumes a 10A continuous duty load on the e-bus. If the e-bus loads are on the order of 5A, then we're talking about a 2.5 watt differential. >It never ceases to amaze me that people will spend $50,000 on a avionics >package and then quibble over the difference in the lowest cost battery or a >more expensive diode that improves emergency operations. You can use any diode you wish for EMERGENCY operations, I prefer to use NO diodes during BATTERY-ONLY operations. The whole idea of the e-bus is to keep an EMERGENCY situation from existing. This was the thrust of Chapter 17. The AOPA dark-n-stormy-night story featured in the 'Connection could have and should have been a non-story except for the short-sightedness of both the OEM and regulatory community in controlling the design of light aircraft electrical systems. The diode bridge rectifier was chosen because of its ease of mounting (has mounting hole, needs no electrical insulation from airframe) and ease of connection (fast-on terminals). The selection wasn't based on electrical performance . . . electrical performance was not significant. This product was selected because it was inexpensive, readily available from dozens of off-the-shelf sources, and easy to mount. This device has a very high order probability of successful implementation by the neophyte airplane builder. If there were a Schottky based product available in the same package, it would indeed be more attractive if one wished to "quibble" over a 5-watt differential under operating conditions where the system has plenty of watts to burn. However, since "watts" are not significant, it seems more practical to concentrate on mechanical features that made it easy for the OBAM aircraft builder to implement an e-bus in his project with a minimum cost and risk. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:40:10 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Rocker Switch Problems-Followup --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 09:40 AM 6/4/2004 -0700, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Scott Diffenbaugh" > > > I checked out the "TP" switches. They would require a major > rework of my >panel. Looks like I will have the operators re-engraved on the upper half >and live with it. Thanks again. Scott One last note. The part number you quoted has an "FBA" phrase which indicates no lamp installed. If you want some 12 lamps installed, you'll need the "FBC" series switches. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:25:06 AM PST US From: jmfpublic@comcast.net (Aeroelectric-List) Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Power Diode Drops --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: jmfpublic@comcast.net Listers, This topic just illustrates how difficult it is to discuss OBAM electrical systems. There are so many ways of operating the system, and so many choices to make. I'm with Bob on this thread, as the power drop through the diode while on alternator power is, to me, negligible. Recall that Bob wrote the 'Connection over a period of years, and Schottky diodes have been rare until recently. As he pointed out above, the e-bus sees no diode drop on battery power because the pilot turns on the battery to e-bus switch. Thus, calculating the "lost" available power while on battery only operation is not applicable, as there is _no_ diode drop at this time. Of course, after safety, there is aesthetics for those with the time and inclination. The OBAM aircraft lets you make these choices, and you are more likely to understand how to use your craft in an emergency having participated in this thought process. Jim Foerster J400, ready to wire. ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:40:30 AM PST US From: echristley@nc.rr.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Power Diode Drops --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: echristley@nc.rr.com > No worries. I get a chuckle out of it. Heck, my nickname in > elementary school was "Mr. Brain". I was the nerdy guy who brought > books on rocket engine design or the Radio Amateur's Handbook to > school instead of the Hardy Boys. > Way off topic but... You're obviously from a different era than I. I was the "Mr. Brain" at my school. I was the nerdy guy who brought the Hardy Boys. do not archive ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 01:42:08 PM PST US From: "Eric M. Jones" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Mr. Brain OT --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" Will all those aeroelectric-listers who had the nickname "Mr. Brain" in school please raise their hands? Regards, Eric M. Jones (Mr. Brain) www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge MA 01550-2705 Phone (508) 764-2072 Email: emjones@charter.net ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 02:24:00 PM PST US From: Harley Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Mr. Brain OT --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Harley Sorry...I was "Wizard" ... Harley Dixon Eric M. Jones wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" > >Will all those aeroelectric-listers who had the nickname "Mr. Brain" in >school please raise their hands? > >Regards, >Eric M. Jones (Mr. Brain) >www.PerihelionDesign.com >113 Brentwood Drive >Southbridge MA 01550-2705 >Phone (508) 764-2072 >Email: emjones@charter.net > > > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 02:28:10 PM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Mr. Brain OT From: "David Glauser" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Glauser" Heh. "Dr. Dave". dg -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Harley Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Mr. Brain OT --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Harley --> Sorry...I was "Wizard" ... Harley Dixon Eric M. Jones wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" >--> > >Will all those aeroelectric-listers who had the nickname "Mr. Brain" in >school please raise their hands? > >Regards, >Eric M. Jones (Mr. Brain) >www.PerihelionDesign.com >113 Brentwood Drive >Southbridge MA 01550-2705 >Phone (508) 764-2072 >Email: emjones@charter.net > > > > == direct advertising on the Matronics Forums. == == == ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 02:32:10 PM PST US From: "Paul Messinger" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Power Diode Drops --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Paul Messinger" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Lloyd" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Power Diode Drops > The point that your xpdr and comm will transmit with higher power is a good one. Since you will directly connect your e-buss to the battery in the case of alternator failure, the end-point voltage relative to diode drop is a non-issue. > Why would I need to do that. Its an extra switch possibly a CB and its a direct battery connection that needs to be special wiring etc. Use the right diode and there is no reason for such an extra switch. Also then one needs to rememner its a direct connection to the battery and one more thing to be sure is off when shutting down. In my design I do nothing beyond diverting to the closest airport in the case of an alternator failure. No special switches to fool with, no additional cockpit load. Paul ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 02:45:15 PM PST US From: Chad Robinson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Mr. Brain OT --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chad Robinson Eric M. Jones wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" > > Will all those aeroelectric-listers who had the nickname "Mr. Brain" in > school please raise their hands? What about nerd? ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 02:46:05 PM PST US From: frequent flyer Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Digital Music in the Cockpit --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: frequent flyer Let me reveal my age and my lack of knowledge. just exactly what is an ipod? How does it differ from a PDA or a palm pilot? How do you transfer music to it? See, now you know about me. Jack do not archive --- Dan Checkoway wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan > Checkoway" > > ipod! I have a 15gb ipod that rocks the house. __________________________________ http://messenger.yahoo.com/ ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 03:01:13 PM PST US From: "Paul Messinger" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Power Diode Drops --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Paul Messinger" From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Power Diode Drops Recall that Bob wrote the 'Connection over a period of years, and Schottky diodes have been rare until recently. As he pointed out above, the e-bus sees no diode drop on battery power because the pilot turns on the battery to e-bus switch. Thus, calculating the "lost" available power while on battery only operation is not applicable, as there is _no_ diode drop at this time. I have had the power schottky diode I am discussing for at least 5 years and it was not a new design then and in distributor stock at that time. So I disagree that good and easy to use parts were rare even 5 years ago and more likely 10 years ago. It does take some time to see what is out there which is harder to do than going to RS and picking a part off the shelf. If you go back further Schottky stud diodes have been avaiulable for many many years and a simple thru hole insulated mount is simple and also off the shelf. Hardly difficult to do. As for turning on the e-bus switch consider that with the RS bridge such a switch is needed. With a proper Schottky diode there is no need for such a switch or the need for the pilot to remember to turn it on. Or off later I have not looked the latest designs in the "Book" but hopefully the alternator failing does not cause power on the e-bus to fail and the only reason for such a switch is to get the last of the power from the battery. BY the way, Hopefully this is not a contest where people take sides and the most votes wins. It should be open to all ideas and rather than pick at new ideas consider are that is it just different or is there real advantages. I would pick a simple no mechanical switch with no addl wiring approach that was automatic over the switch. This does mean a different design than that supported by the "Book" I am not suprised (but disappointed) at the flack this thread is getting. I was hoping that anything that simplified the electrical design and pilot work load was an advantage, even if it required some fresh thinking at the existing aproach. Comments from many seem to zero in on "because the pilot throws a switch in an existing design there is no advantage"... and miss the bigger picture there is no need for the switch in a different, and I submit, better design. Paul ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 03:01:13 PM PST US From: "Paul Messinger" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Power Diode Drops --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Paul Messinger" > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > . . . you're still missing the point. The manner in which an > e-bus normal feed diode is used never causes BATTERY energy to flow > through the diode to the E-bus. In your latest design but not in many designs including mine. > The diode bridge rectifier was chosen because of its ease of mounting > (has mounting hole, needs no electrical insulation from airframe) and > ease of connection (fast-on terminals). The selection wasn't based on > electrical performance . . . electrical performance was not > significant. This product was selected because it was inexpensive, > readily available from dozens of off-the-shelf sources, and easy to > mount. This device has a very high order probability of > successful implementation by the neophyte airplane builder. If there > were a Schottky based product available in the same package, But it is available in a simple bolt down no insulation and bolt on lugs Not exactly the same package but very simple to do. > it would > indeed be more attractive if one wished to "quibble" over a 5-watt > differential under operating conditions where the system has plenty > of watts to burn. However, since "watts" are not significant, it seems > more practical to concentrate on mechanical features that made it easy > for the OBAM aircraft builder to implement an e-bus in his project with a > minimum cost and risk. Again you presume a design where additional switch(s) are needed to switch over to direct battery feed. Hopefully you will agree that lower cockpit pilot load and fewer connections and switches to throw is better and more reliable in a real world situation where automatic power routing is more likely to happen than manual thinking in a rare emergency. Two truely independent batteries each feeding the e-bus thru a Schottky diode provides switchless reliable (more reliable than extra wiring and a switch in my opinion) e-bus power at minimal voltage loss and more importantly its automatic. IE no pilot work load. I am not "quibbling" over 5 watts. I am "quibbling" over the basic design approach that seems to need a direct electrical connection to the battery and bypassing the battery master contactor simply because of the availability of a low v drop diode. There was a long and thread about the need for keeping the current draw low the the in any direct battery connections. But why debate it, let each person decide for themselves. There are several good solutions to every problem and we should direct our attention to the many bad ones rather than try to justify one above other good solutions. Paul ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 03:11:02 PM PST US From: "Phil Birkelbach" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Power Diode Drops --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Phil Birkelbach" What kind of architecture are you talking about? If you plan to simply divert then it seems to me that you don't need the e-buss or the diode at all. Godspeed, Phil Birkelbach - Houston Texas RV-7 N727WB (Reserved) - Panel http://www.myrv7.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Messinger" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Power Diode Drops > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Paul Messinger" > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brian Lloyd" > To: > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Power Diode Drops > > > > The point that your xpdr and comm will transmit with higher power is a > good one. Since you will directly connect your e-buss to the battery in the > case of alternator failure, the end-point voltage relative to diode drop is > a non-issue. > > > > Why would I need to do that. Its an extra switch possibly a CB and its a > direct battery connection that needs to be special wiring etc. > > Use the right diode and there is no reason for such an extra switch. Also > then one needs to rememner its a direct connection to the battery and one > more thing to be sure is off when shutting down. > > In my design I do nothing beyond diverting to the closest airport in the > case of an alternator failure. No special switches to fool with, no > additional cockpit load. > > Paul > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 03:21:03 PM PST US From: Chad Robinson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Digital Music in the Cockpit --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chad Robinson frequent flyer wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: frequent flyer > > Let me reveal my age and my lack of knowledge. just > exactly what is an ipod? How does it differ from a PDA > or a palm pilot? How do you transfer music to it? http://www.apple.com/ipod/ http://www.apple.com/ipod/specs.html An iPod is a 4"x2.5"x.75" (largest unit) device that weighs about 6oz. and can store about 4,000 songs. Depending on how much music you have in your collection this could in many cases be your entire library. Units with more storage capacity are also available for music freaks that want to "take it all with them" (like me, although I use a different player). The basic concepts and some photos are all in the URLs above. If your music is on CDs you can use "ripping" software to copy it onto the iPod. You can also download music from various sources, with various legal implications depending on where you go. I suspect you don't plan any illegal music downloads; if you don't know what an Ipod is you probably don't know where to go to GET illegal music. =) Anything that you own and is on your shelf is fair game, so don't worry too much about that bit. If your music is in tape or other "analog" format you have to do a bit more work - basically you hook your stereo up to your computer and record the items you want to transfer. The benefit of doing this is that you have a digital backup at that point that won't deteriorate over time. The benefits for travel are also fairly significant - one small, lightweight device can hold an enormous amount of music. Unlike a CD player/changer you can slice/dice the music various ways using a tool called "playlists" so you can have song collections to fit various moods or the people you're with. The iPod is not the only such device. The name for this class of product is "MP3 Player" and there are dozens of options on the market now. Aside from car-focused products like the Empeg/Rio (which I use, but it's almost a dinosaur now; my wife, who has an iPod, snickers at me because I'm still a Rio fan) and the Phatbox, the iPod is probably the most expensive consumer-oriented MP3 player on the market. It sells because it has a very easy-to-use user interface, has a highly-rated tool for loading the player with songs, is reliable, etc. That doesn't mean you shouldn't consider other options, but if you have the cash and you don't know what you're doing you may as well buy quality. Regards, Chad ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 05:22:58 PM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Power Diode Drops --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kevin Horton >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Paul Messinger" > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Brian Lloyd" >To: >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Power Diode Drops > > > > The point that your xpdr and comm will transmit with higher power is a >good one. Since you will directly connect your e-buss to the battery in the >case of alternator failure, the end-point voltage relative to diode drop is >a non-issue. > > > >Why would I need to do that. Its an extra switch possibly a CB and its a >direct battery connection that needs to be special wiring etc. I guess it depends on how far you have to go to get to the airport. If the airport is close, then it doesn't make any difference. But if you have a fair ways to go you will want to shed the Main Bus loads to allow longer battery duration, which means that the feed through the diode is no longer functioning. >Use the right diode and there is no reason for such an extra switch. Also >then one needs to rememner its a direct connection to the battery and one >more thing to be sure is off when shutting down. Normally, the E-bus alternate feed would not have been selected, so this isn't a consideration. >In my design I do nothing beyond diverting to the closest airport in the >case of an alternator failure. No special switches to fool with, no >additional cockpit load. There are a lot of parts of the world where you could be more than an hour from the closest airport. How long will you battery last if you are running all your loads? It is easier to flip two switches to select the E-bus alternate feed and deselect the battery contactor than it is to manually shed main bus loads. Plus it is nice to shed the battery contactor load if you have lost the alternator. Kevin Horton RV-8 (Finishing Kit) Ottawa, Canada http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/ ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 06:12:02 PM PST US From: jmfpublic@comcast.net (Aeroelectric-List) Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Re: Power Diode Drops --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: jmfpublic@comcast.net Paul Messinger wrote in response to Bob: > . . . you're still missing the point. The manner in which an > e-bus normal feed diode is used never causes BATTERY energy to flow > through the diode to the E-bus. "In your latest design but not in many designs including mine." Paul, recall that this discussion started on May 31 with Arthur Treff noting that he had a 1 volt drop to his e-bus through his silicon diode. Arthur noted that he used diagram Z13, the "all electrical system on a budget." With this system, if I recall, alternator failure is announced via a low voltage alarm. The pilot then turns off the battery master contactor, saving that power and simultaneously cutting off non-essential lighting and loads that can be abandoned. He also turns on the e-bus to battery switch, maintaining the desired list of items necessary to complete the flight to the destination. If you change the architecture, i.e. the schematic, then operation will be different. I believe that some of us in this discussion thought you were still referring to the Z13 diagram. Of course you are right that the Schottky is the desirable choice for battery only operation where the power goes through the diode. I, too, would prefer that the pilot not need to throw a switch to maintain the e-bus. However, if you use two independent batteries to power the e-bus, you would need to have an avionics master switch that would need to be turned off at the end of the flight, and also represents a single point of failure. Or have you figured out a more clever arrangement? Also, thanks for your measurements of the diode voltage drops at various currents. Your work with the "load dump" issue is appreciated,too. Jim Foerster J400, 80%... ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 07:38:10 PM PST US From: "Dave Ford" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 32 Msgs - 06/03/04 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Ford" >I now have an Apple iPod. This is the most fantastic device for playing music in the cockpit I have ever found. My entire record and CD collection fits on the thing with plenty of room left over for more music in the future. I don't need to fumble around with cassettes, CDs, minidisks, or memory cards. Not only that but the song you want is always right there. I highly recommend this as the best solution for portable music in the cockpit. I think I like the idea of having a lot of music on one device but I can't see me sitting for hours loading this thing full of music--or is there a better way? How much time do you have putting your entire collection on your iPod? Also is there a good website for picking out one of these devices? I have tried a search for this but end up running in circles. Dave Ford RV6 ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 08:13:36 PM PST US From: frequent flyer Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Digital Music in the Cockpit --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: frequent flyer Chad, Great info. Thanks for the reply. Jack --- Chad Robinson wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chad > Robinson > > > http://www.apple.com/ipod/ > http://www.apple.com/ipod/specs.html > > An iPod is a 4"x2.5"x.75" (largest unit) device that > weighs about 6oz. and can > store about 4,000 songs. __________________________________ http://messenger.yahoo.com/ ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 08:13:43 PM PST US From: frequent flyer Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Digital Music in the Cockpit --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: frequent flyer Chad, Great info. Thanks for the reply. Jack do not archive --- Chad Robinson wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chad > Robinson > > > http://www.apple.com/ipod/ > http://www.apple.com/ipod/specs.html > > An iPod is a 4"x2.5"x.75" (largest unit) device that > weighs about 6oz. and can > store about 4,000 songs. __________________________________ http://messenger.yahoo.com/ ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 08:31:51 PM PST US From: richard@riley.net Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Digital Music in the Cockpit --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: richard@riley.net The IPOD hard disk tends to head crash above 10,000 feet with just a touch of turbulence. I found out the hard way " Environmental requirements * Operating temperature: 32 to 95 F (0 to 35 C) * Non operating temperature: -4 to 113 F (-20 to 45 C) * Relative humidity: 5% to 95% noncondensing * Maximum operating altitude: 10,000 feet (3000 m) At 03:20 PM 6/4/04, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chad Robinson > >frequent flyer wrote: > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: frequent flyer > > > > Let me reveal my age and my lack of knowledge. just > > exactly what is an ipod? How does it differ from a PDA > > or a palm pilot? How do you transfer music to it? > >http://www.apple.com/ipod/ >http://www.apple.com/ipod/specs.html > >An iPod is a 4"x2.5"x.75" (largest unit) device that weighs about 6oz. and >can >store about 4,000 songs. Depending on how much music you have in your >collection this could in many cases be your entire library. Units with more >storage capacity are also available for music freaks that want to "take it >all >with them" (like me, although I use a different player). > >The basic concepts and some photos are all in the URLs above. If your >music is >on CDs you can use "ripping" software to copy it onto the iPod. You can also >download music from various sources, with various legal implications >depending >on where you go. I suspect you don't plan any illegal music downloads; if you >don't know what an Ipod is you probably don't know where to go to GET illegal >music. =) Anything that you own and is on your shelf is fair game, so don't >worry too much about that bit. > >If your music is in tape or other "analog" format you have to do a bit more >work - basically you hook your stereo up to your computer and record the >items >you want to transfer. The benefit of doing this is that you have a digital >backup at that point that won't deteriorate over time. > >The benefits for travel are also fairly significant - one small, lightweight >device can hold an enormous amount of music. Unlike a CD player/changer you >can slice/dice the music various ways using a tool called "playlists" so you >can have song collections to fit various moods or the people you're with. > >The iPod is not the only such device. The name for this class of product is >"MP3 Player" and there are dozens of options on the market now. Aside from >car-focused products like the Empeg/Rio (which I use, but it's almost a >dinosaur now; my wife, who has an iPod, snickers at me because I'm still a >Rio >fan) and the Phatbox, the iPod is probably the most expensive >consumer-oriented MP3 player on the market. It sells because it has a very >easy-to-use user interface, has a highly-rated tool for loading the player >with songs, is reliable, etc. That doesn't mean you shouldn't consider other >options, but if you have the cash and you don't know what you're doing you >may >as well buy quality. > >Regards, >Chad > > ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 08:44:15 PM PST US From: "Emrath" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: B&C LR-3C question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Emrath" Would putting the resistor in the circuit (or the two 220 ohm resistors as Bob suggests) stop the current leak to the point where there is no battery drain when hangered? Marty Time: 08:32:50 PM PST US From: "James Redmon" Subject: AeroElectric-List: B&C LR-3C question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James Redmon" All, I was working with B&C on this, but the gentleman is out of pocket for a couple weeks and thought one of you might know the answer. I am using a LED instead of an incandescent lamp for the OV light. The issue I discussed with B&C was that the LED never goes out...it stays on (dimly) even when the regulator is turned off. When I turn on the regulator (battery only) the LED does blink properly. He mentioned that the regulator bleeds a little current on the lamp pin all the time - not enough to illuminate a lamp, but a LED still glows slightly. He mentioned a fix of placing a 520-ohm resistor between Pin 5 (the lamp lead) and another pin on the regulator. I have misplaced my notes and can not remember specifically which other pin to connect the resistor to. Does someone happen to know which one I should use? If not, I can always wait a couple of weeks until Tim gets back. Thanks! James Redmon Berkut #013 N97TX http://www.berkut13.com ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 09:06:00 PM PST US From: Chad Robinson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 32 Msgs - 06/03/04 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chad Robinson Dave Ford wrote: > I think I like the idea of having a lot of music on one device but I can't > see me sitting for hours loading this thing full of music--or is there a > better way? How much time do you have putting your entire collection on > your iPod? Also is there a good website for picking out one of these > devices? I have tried a search for this but end up running in circles. Well, that's a somewhat loaded question. If you only have one CD, if you download my favorite ripping tool (CDex, a free application that will even look up and name your files for you), if you don't make a lot of playlists, in 10-15 minutes you could have that disc on your iPod. Add a few minutes more for each additional disc once you get the hang of it. So it all depends on: * How much music can FIT on your player. Some players like the iPod use hard drives and can store thousands of files. That would take a while to transfer, perhaps hours if you did it all at once. Some players, like the more portable armband-style Flash-based units can only fit 10-20 songs, so they're not much more than small, light, skip-free CD player replacements. Those wouldn't take long at all to load. * How much music you have. If you just bought your first CD, it won't take long at all. =) Also, although I suggested earlier that it's possible to convert old analog (tape and phono) sources I don't generally recommend doing this unless you're a stereophile and comfortable with the signal side of things. These sources generally need quite a bit of cleaning up to be usable. * Your level of comfort with computers. There's no shame in admitting inexperience here. If this is the case you should definitely consider a product with a highly-rated user interface, like the iPod. I also recommend buying from a local store rather than online because it's easier to return if you decide you don't like it. * How much you really CARE about aesthetics. I use my MP3 player constantly, so I spent a lot of time tweaking playlists, song title, artist, genre, etc. information, and so on. I spent WEEKS doing this, but I chose to - it wasn't actually necessary. If you're the type who rarely even takes the CD booklet out of the jewel case to see what's inside, you can skip this process. How much time? Well, I own over 600 CDs, all legally. I have spent HUNDREDS of hours ripping, categorizing, and manipulating these songs for use on four different MP3 players through the years. My wife has spent probably 20 hours on her iPod, and a buddy of mine spent about 10 minutes - dragged-and-dropped a few files, and walked away while they copied over. By the way, if you do go this route there's a hidden benefit. I keep all my files in a shared folder on my home network. I haven't touched a CD (except to import new purchases) in several years. They're all sitting in boxes in the attic. CDs are HUGE! I've seen people with enormous shelving units for them. All that disappeared for me. In terms of device selection, I always drop by http://www.epinions.com and http://www.amazon.com to read reviews before I buy consumer electronics (or other things!) You have to take reviews with a grain of salt - people with problems tend to be more vocal than those without. But, at least it gives you a general feeling for what you might expect, battery lifetimes, quality of support options, etc. http://www.pricewatch.com is a good place to go for price comparisons, too. Regards, Chad ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 09:26:43 PM PST US From: "James Redmon" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: B&C LR-3C question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James Redmon" Sure...as long as you remember to turn the master off. ;-) (I couldn't resist) -James Do not archive > Would putting the resistor in the circuit (or the two 220 ohm resistors as > Bob suggests) stop the current leak to the point where there is no battery > drain when hangered? > Marty