Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:15 AM - Re: Adel Clamp Help (Dan Checkoway)
2. 04:01 AM - Battery types (Was: 2 batteries, 1 alternator) (Brian Lloyd)
3. 05:39 AM - Z-14 Dual Alternators (John Schroeder)
4. 05:47 AM - Re: Adel Clamp Help (John Schroeder)
5. 05:56 AM - Re: running power and ground through dsub connectors (CardinalNSB@aol.com)
6. 06:53 AM - Re: Battery types (Was: 2 batteries, 1 alternator) (Ken)
7. 06:59 AM - Re: Battery types (Was: 2 batteries, 1 alternator) (Paul Messinger)
8. 07:30 AM - Re: Battery types (Was: 2 batteries, 1 alternator) (SportAV8R@aol.com)
9. 07:33 AM - Re: NiMh battery testing (SportAV8R@aol.com)
10. 07:52 AM - Re: Battery types (Was: 2 batteries, 1 alternator) (Brian Lloyd)
11. 08:11 AM - Re: Adel Clamp Help (Mickey Coggins)
12. 08:33 AM - Re: Battery types (Was: 2 batteries, 1 alternator) (Brian Lloyd)
13. 08:37 AM - Re: Battery types (Was: 2 batteries, 1 alternator) (Brian Lloyd)
14. 10:55 AM - Re: Battery types (Was: 2 batteries, 1 alternator) (Paul Messinger)
15. 11:08 AM - Phillips head screws (Fergus Kyle)
16. 11:34 AM - Wire Marking (BobsV35B@aol.com)
17. 11:55 AM - Re: Wire Marking (Bruce Gray)
18. 11:57 AM - Z-11 Main Battery Bus (Dave Sundberg)
19. 01:53 PM - Re: Phillips head screws (BTomm)
20. 02:24 PM - Re: Wire Marking (BobsV35B@aol.com)
21. 03:10 PM - Re:Adel Clamp Help (James Foerster)
22. 03:22 PM - Re: Wire Marking (Bruce Gray)
23. 03:54 PM - Re: Wire Marking (BobsV35B@aol.com)
24. 04:28 PM - Re: Wire Marking ()
25. 05:07 PM - Re: Phillips head screws (Jerzy Krasinski)
26. 06:30 PM - Re: Phillips head screws (cgalley)
27. 07:00 PM - Off to California . . . (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
28. 07:16 PM - Re: Phillips head screws (Jim Jewell)
29. 07:21 PM - Re: Phillips head screws (Paul)
30. 08:05 PM - Adel Clamp Help ()
31. 09:14 PM - Re: Wire Marking (Ron Koyich)
32. 09:43 PM - Re: Off to California . . . (James Redmon)
33. 09:45 PM - Garmin/Navaid interface (Jim Anglin)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Adel Clamp Help |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
> I have purchased a bunch of torx screws from microfasteners
> and use them everywhere. Unfortunately they only
> have a pretty limited range of lengths.
Go with McMaster Carr -- http://www.mcmaster.com Enter "machine screws" or
"socket head cap screws" in to the search box, and you can use their
"wizard" to narrow down what you want. Torx screws from McMaster come in
lengths from 1/8" to 3".
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
Message 2
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| Subject: | Battery types (Was: 2 batteries, 1 alternator) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
SportAV8R@aol.com wrote:
> Brian, I predict you are about to hear how a starved electrolyte RG battery will
serve well in both applications. Okay, I just fulfilled my own prediction,
didn't I? ;-)
Guess what, a gel-cell is also a "starved electrolyte RG battery." I remember
someone telling me that AGMs were common and when one got a "gel-cell" it was
really most likely an AGM battery. I have since learned that this is not the
case and there really are some substantial differences between the various types
of lead-acid battery.
All these batteries are variations of the venerable lead-acid rechargeable battery.
The most common is the type with an excess of liquid electrolyte. This
is known as the flooded-cell battery. The plates are either made up of lead-antimony
or lead-calcium. The former is often found in "deep cycle" batteries
but uses more water and must be topped up regularly. It also suffers from a greater
level of self-discharge (it slowly goes dead by itself). The latter is
used in "maintenance free" batteries used in cars. They don't use as much water
but they don't like deep discharge.
At some point in time someone got the idea to add a binder to the electrolyte that
turns it into a jelly-like substance. That formed the basis of the gel-cell.
The problem with gel-cells is that ions do not travel quite as well through
the jelly so you cannot charge or discharge these cells as rapidly without
damage as you can the flooded-cell batteries.
Later on someone got the idea of using a fine fiberglass separator between the
plates of the battery and adding just enough electrolyte to fill the spaces in
the fiberglass separator/insulator. Capillary action keeps the electrolyte trapped
between the plates. This became known as the Absorbed Glass Mat (AGM)
or "starved electrolyte" battery. They have some of the characteristics of both
gel-cell and flooded-cell batteries and make a good compromise between the
two.
Both gel-cell and AGM batteries are recombinant gas (RG) batteries. This means
that the hydrogen and oxygen gas created by electrolysis at the end of the charging
cycle (think about the bubbles in a flooded-cell battery when it is almost
fully charged) recombine back into water inside the battery. This means the
batteries can be sealed and will never need you to add water ... as long as
you don't abuse them by overcharging. (More on this later.)
Flooded-cell batteries can take a lot of overcharging abuse before they fail.
Gel-cell and AGM batteries cannot take much abuse. If you overcharge a flooded-cell
battery, it just converts more of the water into gas, a problem solved
by simply adding more water to the battery. If you overcharge either a gel-cell
or AGM battery the gasses cannot recombine into water fast enough so the pressure
in the cell rises until the overpressure valve pops off letting the gas
escape (and thus keeping the battery from exploding). That is water needed by
the cell to function and it is never replaced. Your battery is on its way to
an early death when this happens.
Remember also that lead-acid batteries can get too hot during heavy charge and
discharge cycles. Again, flooded-cell batteries have lots of liquid that can
circulate and help carry the heat away from the plates. Gel-cell and AGM batteries
can't do that. The hot plates can warp and cause the cell to fail early.
This is more of a problem with gel-cells than with AGMs.
And speaking of heat, there is also the problem of thermal runaway. As you warm
up a lead-acid battery it will accept more current from its charging source.
If you have a constant-voltage charger such as we have in our airplanes (the
output voltage of the alternator is kept constant by the voltage regulator) then
when the battery warms up it will take more current. Consider what happens
on a hot summer day as you crank and crank your fuel-injected engine during
a hot-start and give the battery a deep discharge as well as let it get hot from
all the starting current passing through it. The battery may be very hot after
that and then you throw 50A or 100A at it from that big alternator you have
up there. The battery is going to be damaged by this and can even catch fire.
This is very high on my "things you don't want to have happen while flying"
list.
So how many life cycles can you expect out of your batteries and how do you charge them safely? I don't know what batteries you have but here is some data for the AGM and gel-cell batteries from Deka (East Penn Manufacturing), the company that supplies the 225AH AGM batteries I use on my boat (I have four of them). Deka has a very comprehensive white paper on the care and feeding of their "Valve Regulated Lead Acid (VRLA)" sealed batteries. You can find this paper at http://www.eastpenn-deka.com/products/pdfs/0139.pdf.
Looking at page 10 of their white paper there is a chart of battery life vs. depth-of-discharge
for the two types of battery. I reproduce it here:
Typical VRLA Battery Cycling Ability vs. Depth of Discharge
Typical Life Cycles
Capacity Withdrawn Gel AGM
100% 450 150
80% 600 200
50% 1000 370
25% 2100 925
10% 5700 3100
What is apparent from this chart is that if you are cycling your cells deeply,
gel-cells will last a lot longer than will AGMs. That is why you want to get
gel-cells to power things when they must often run on battery power and the battery
will be significantly discharged.
How Improper Charging Kills Batteries
As I said before, it is easy to damage a sealed battery by overcharging it. It
can give off gas faster than it can recombine into water. It is also easy to
damage it by undercharging. In that case the plates develop a sulphate coating
that prevents the plate from delivering all its charge thus leading to a steady
degradation of the battery. (Does this sound familiar?)
With flooded-cell batteries you just overcharge them a bit. OK, they outgas a
lot and you have to add water but they seem to last pretty well. This is what
the average aircraft charging system does to your battery in the summer. In
the winter the electrical system does not have a high enough voltage to properly
charge a battery so these batteries end up perennially undercharged in the
winter. The plates suffer from sulphation and battery capacity slowly goes away.
In summer they come back a bit by overcharging them but this kind of abuse
still leads to a shot battery after about 4 years.
Now if you have a VRLA battery, either AGM or gel-cell, the summer overcharging
kills them very quickly. I remember being so happy when Concorde and others
started making sealed AGM batteries available for aircraft. I was actually excited
by the prospect of no more cleaning corrosion out of my battery boxes.
The problem was, the batteries went bad after a little over a year in the airplane.
I think one went two years before failing. I was not a happy camper.
Now I know why the problem occurs. The standard aircraft alternator/VR combo
kills sealed batteries.
How to properly charge Lead-Acid Batteries
The problem stems from the fact that the voltage needed to charge a battery properly
is too high to keep the battery from overcharging. If you drop the voltage
to a proper maintenance level to prevent damage, the battery won't charge.
Add to that the fact that the proper voltages change with temperature and you
can see why these batteries die an early death.
To properly charge and maintain a battery you need to do it in three steps. They
are:
* Bulk charge
* Absorption charge
* float charge
When a battery is seriously depleted, it needs to go through the bulk charge phase.
This is usually a constant current that puts back most of the charge in
the battery. The bulk charge phase gets the battery to about 80% of full charge.
As the battery goes through the bulk charge phase its voltage will continue to
rise. When it reaches a certain voltage the charger needs to switch to constant
voltage charging at the absorption voltage. In your airplane this is the regulator
setpoint. At this point the voltage stays constant and the current drops
until the battery is fully charged. The battery will be fully charged when
the charging current drops to about 5% of the battery's rating. For example,
for a 20Ah battery this would be 1A.
But what happens now? If you leave the battery on this charge voltage it will
now begin to overcharge and generate too much gas. Keeping the voltage at this
set point will now start to destroy the battery. What needs to happen is to
drop the charge voltage low enough that the battery will neither charge nor discharge.
This is the float charge phase of the charging cycle. Keeping the
battery at this float voltage will ensure it stays charged but won't be damaged.
Here are the values for absorption and float voltages for different temperatures
for the Deka AGM and Gel-Cell batteries:
AGM Charge and Float Voltages
at Various Temperature Ranges
Temp. Charge Float Temp.
F Optimum Maximum Optimum Maximum C
>120 13.60 13.90 12.80 13.00 >49
110 120 13.80 14.10 12.90 13.20 43 49
100 110 13.90 14.20 13.00 13.30 38 43
90 100 14.00 14.30 13.10 13.40 32 38
80 90 14.10 14.40 13.20 13.50 27 32
70 80 14.30 14.60 13.40 13.70 21 27
60 70 14.45 14.75 13.55 13.85 16 21
50 60 14.60 14.90 13.70 14.00 10 16
40 50 14.80 15.10 13.90 14.20 4 10
<40 15.10 15.40 14.20 14.50 <4
Gel Charge and Float Voltages
at Various Temperature Ranges
Temp. Charge Float Temp.
F Optimum Maximum Optimum Maximum C
>120 13.00 13.30 12.80 13.00 >49
110 120 13.20 13.50 12.90 13.20 44 48
100 109 13.30 13.60 13.00 13.30 38 43
90 99 13.40 13.70 13.10 13.40 32 37
80 89 13.50 13.80 13.20 13.50 27 31
70 79 13.70 14.00 13.40 13.70 21 26
60 69 13.85 14.15 13.55 13.85 16 20
50 59 14.00 14.30 13.70 14.00 10 15
40 49 14.20 14.50 13.90 14.20 5 9
<40 14.50 14.80 14.20 14.50 <4
Three things to notice right away:
1. the proper charging voltages for AGM and Gel-Cell batteries are very different;
2. the proper charging voltages vary greatly with temperature;
3. there is a big difference between the absorption charge and float voltages.
The approach taken by automotive and aircraft electrical systems is to pick an
average value that will charge the battery but not overcharge it too much and
will be good for the average temperature in which the battery will operate. This
works after a fashion for flooded-cell batteries. Still, you can make your
battery last longer by adjusting the voltage set point of your voltage regulator
depending on the temperature. The B&C alternator controller that Bob designed
does this and is a big win over standard voltage regulators. In my not-so-humble-opinion
the temperature compensation option is a necessity, not a luxury.
But even that is not enough. You really need a regulator that will switch to a
lower voltage once the battery has been recharged. The only saving grace is
that people usually don't fly long enough to let the battery seriously overcharge.
Long cross country flights in summer down low where the battery gets warm
are real killers unless you turn the charge voltage down to the proper float
voltage.
Unfortunately most regulators in cars and aircraft do NOT offer this feature.
This feature *has* become standard in aftermarket external voltage regulators
for the marine and RV markets. I happen to have chosen Ample Power's Smart Alternator
Regulator V3 (SAR-V3-24P) for my boat since it will drive dual alternators
(I have two engines) and properly charge my battery bank. I will probably
use this regulator in my all-electric CJ6A also. When the alternator fails
I want the batteries to be healthy.
And with regard to AGM vs. Gel-Cell, I made the mistake of choosing AGM for my
boat's battery bank. They won't last as long in deep-cycle service. Still, that
is what I have and I try not to discharge them too deeply. When they finally
reach the end of their life they will be replaced with Gel-Cell batteries.
OTOH they are 2 years old and showing no signs of losing their capacity. I
am hoping to get 6-7 years of good use out of them before having to replace them.
And at $400 apiece, I don't want to have to replace them very often.
So now to get back to the original comment of AGMs vs. Gel-Cells, I think I can
safely say they are NOT the same. Still, both can serve very well if treated
properly.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
http://www.lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 (voice) +1.360.838.9669 (fax)
There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest.
A good citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Z-14 Dual Alternators |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Schroeder <jschroeder@perigee.net>
Bob -
We have a 70 amp alternator and will put a B&C SD-20 on the vacuum pad for
the second system of the Z-14. The questions are shunts and ANL current
limiters.
1. Since B&C does not carry a 70 amp shunt, we ordered a 75 amp. Is this
OK?
2. Since B&C does not have a 20 or a 70 amp ANL, we ordered a 40 to use
on the 20 amp alternator and a 60 to use for the 70 amp alternator. Are
these OK?
3. Or should we try to obtain them elsewhere?
4. Are there any operational cautions to bear in mind using these
mismatches in components for the alternators?
Many thanks,
John
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Adel Clamp Help |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Schroeder <jschroeder@perigee.net>
Mickey -
We are also using the ss torx drive screws everywhere. Keep spreading the
gospel and maybe John at Micro Fasteners will order a few more lengths. We
bought double the amount we need because we feared he would not carry them
past the first mfg. run!!
Cheers,
John
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: running power and ground through dsub connectors |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: CardinalNSB@aol.com
Hello. The manual calls out for two 18awg power wires for my Garmin 300xl,
and they give oversized pins for 18 awg. The manual only calls out for a 10
amp breaker, so why the overkill on two power wires. (14 volt system)
I understand the dsub pins are generally rated for 6 amps each, so two with
20 awg should be protected by a 10 amp breaker? Is this standard avionics
wiring practice?
I can only think this is in case one wire falls out of the crimp?
I was planning to run the power and ground through the dsubs for all my
avionics, should I use double wire in the regular pins, even though my other
breakers are 5 amp or less?
Are there any issues (other than current draw) I should be aware of, or any
other reasons not to run the power and ground through the dsubs?
Should the power and ground wires be twisted or simplly wired like in a
bundle?
Where can I easily get more oversized pins and sockets for 18awg?
Thank you all, Skip Simpson
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Battery types (Was: 2 batteries, 1 alternator) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
I have never liked using an automotive V.R. designed for a flooded cell
battery on a small RG battery. As a cheap band-aid, I have occasionally
wondered about using a diode to drop the voltage going to the battery on
those long summer cruises. There are several possible ways of doing
that and of course several potential problems. No I've never tried this;
I'm NOT recommending it, and yes obviously the correct external VR is
the real solution. I'm merely throwing out an idea to see what
discussion it might generate.
Eventually perhaps I'll try something for the PM alternator half of my
modified Z-14 architecture (no conventional battery contactors) after
I see what the real voltages and RG battery life turn out to be.
25 years ago I built a linear VR for my old farm tractor with much more
temperature compensation than normal. A different compromise, but I
think it helps extend battery life in that particular application (often
10 years of combination car and tractor service) before sulfation kills
that flooded cell battery.
Ken
Brian Lloyd wrote:
>>snip
>>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Battery types (Was: 2 batteries, 1 alternator) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Paul Messinger" <paulm@olypen.com>
To each his own.
It very common for a MFGR to compare his product to some other inferior
product.
However in this case the data is very misleading as the Odyssey batty is a
AGM type and has the ability to handle 400-500+ very deep cycles and Does
not need to be attended to for more than a year due to extremely low self
discharge. IE no need to have a trickle / maintaner charger on the battery
for the winter months.
Further its intended to be for starting. All of the above are commonly said
to be NOT typical of AGM.
Here is a link where you can download the info on this brand of battery.
http://www.batterymart.com/pdf_files/odyssey_guide.pdf
If you go to the factory web site there is more info.
http://www.odysseyfactory.com/
Charging is simple in an aircraft; put them in parallel (per Bob) and or use
the Schottky Diode I have recommended in the past. NOT a diode that you
might find in RS or boat or RV stores that I have seen.
I do not like putting them in parallel for reasons beyond this post but not
because it is not a good way to charge. In fact Odyssey suggests that method
is OK. Even with different depth of discharge its ok.
This diode allows 100% FULL charge while isolating the back up battery. At
least with the charging systems on every auto and aircraft have ever heard
of using normal voltage settings.
Paul
> Typical VRLA Battery Cycling Ability vs. Depth of Discharge
>
> Typical Life Cycles
> Capacity Withdrawn Gel AGM
> 100% 450 150
> 80% 600 200
> 50% 1000 370
> 25% 2100 925
> 10% 5700 3100
>
> What is apparent from this chart is that if you are cycling your cells
deeply, gel-cells will last a lot longer than will AGMs. That is why you
want to get gel-cells to power things when they must often run on battery
power and the battery will be significantly discharged.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Battery types (Was: 2 batteries, 1 alternator) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: SportAV8R@aol.com
Brian; that was lengthy and very informative. Much of it I knew, some learned
the hard way from experience in the 80's with a gel cell battery on float charge
in the ham shack. What you did not address (I think) is the suitability of
the AGM's for aircraft cranking service; I still don't believe, based on my good
experience with the small AGM ("625") turning the Sky-Tec starter in my RV
for over two years now, that a flooded battery or gel cell is _significantly_
better suited for this duty, as I think was implied in the original post. If
that's not what you said, forgive me.
-BB
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: NiMh battery testing |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: SportAV8R@aol.com
In a message dated 6/16/2004 6:36:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, khorton01@rogers.com
writes:
> >You might also want to run them through several charge/discharge
> >cycles to see if their capacity increases. My experience with NiMH
> >battery packs in handheld radios is that they don't reach full
> >capacity until you go through several full charge/discharge cycles.
> >
>
> The Motorola NiMH batteries in my cell phone had very little
> perceived capacity when I first got the phone. I almost returned the
> phone, as I was extremely disappointed with the battery life. But
> the batteries' perceived capacity increased about four-fold
> after
> several discharge-charge cycles.
>
> --
> Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Doing that experiment today, at the office, between appointments. Will post results.
do not archive
-BB
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Battery types (Was: 2 batteries, 1 alternator) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
Ken wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
>
> I have never liked using an automotive V.R. designed for a flooded cell
> battery on a small RG battery.
The problem is not the VR. It just sets the voltage. It depends on how much current
you try to source to the battery when it is discharged.
Normally your alternator is your current limiter and the battery is not seriously
discharged so it goes right into the absorption charge (constant voltage) stage
and current falls off very quickly.
> As a cheap band-aid, I have occasionally
> wondered about using a diode to drop the voltage going to the battery on
> those long summer cruises.
The will drop the voltage but resetting your VR to the proper voltage or getting
a temperature compensated VR is a much better answer.
> Eventually perhaps I'll try something for the PM alternator half of my
> modified Z-14 architecture (no conventional battery contactors) after
> I see what the real voltages and RG battery life turn out to be.
The numbers I provided are from Deka for their batteries but you will find more
similarity than differences between AGMs across the various manufacturers.
Has anyone considered building a boost/buck high-frequency switching regulator
for the PM alternators, one that will optimize the operating point? People are
starting to do that for solar panels and getting an extra 10% out of the panels
by optimizing their operating point. Of course, that assumes that the PM
alternators (dynamos actually) can operate at 100% for long periods of time.
> 25 years ago I built a linear VR for my old farm tractor with much more
> temperature compensation than normal. A different compromise, but I
> think it helps extend battery life in that particular application (often
> 10 years of combination car and tractor service) before sulfation kills
> that flooded cell battery.
Right. The guy who started Ample Power is going on 12 years for his gel-cell "house"
battery bank. There is no need for batteries to die an early death.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
http://www.lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 (voice) +1.360.838.9669 (fax)
There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest.
A good citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises.
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Adel Clamp Help |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
It's nice that he has the 100 degree flat heads,
I have not found them in non-metric sizes anywhere
else. I have to schedule a visit to Toulouse to
visit the Airbus factory. I'm curious if they
use standard sized nuts and bolts or metric.
Luckily for me I'm "bilingual", growing up in Texas,
but I have to say I'm more comfortable with metric.
I sure feel sorry for the Euros being immersed in
English units when building an aircraft!
Mickey
At 15:02 17-06-04, John Schroeder wrote:
-----Start of Original Message-----
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Schroeder <jschroeder@perigee.net>
>
>Mickey -
>
>We are also using the ss torx drive screws everywhere. Keep spreading the
>gospel and maybe John at Micro Fasteners will order a few more lengths. We
>bought double the amount we need because we feared he would not carry them
>past the first mfg. run!!
>
>Cheers,
>
>John
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
do not archive
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Battery types (Was: 2 batteries, 1 alternator) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
Paul Messinger wrote:
> It very common for a MFGR to compare his product to some other inferior
> product.
If you look at what I posted, Deka was comparing their own AGM to their own Gel-Cell.
The batteries are designed for different applications. One does not use
gel-cells in short-term high-load applications such as starting engines. AGMs
are ideal for that. OTOH, AGMs are inferior to gel-cells for low-rate, long-term,
deep-cycle applications. Deka makes both and they cost about the same.
They don't care which one you buy from them. They do care if they fail during
the warantee period so they want you to pick the right one and use it properly.
A particular AGM might be superior to a particular gel-cell for a particular low-rate,
deep-cycle application but *IN* *GENERAL* gel-cells excel at this particular
application. If you read my posting again you will see that I say that
the AGM is a good compromise.
> However in this case the data is very misleading
No, it is not misleading in the least and I resent this comment. It is the data
that Deka provides for the proper operation of their battery for best life.
It does not compare itself to any other battery other than to try to explain
the application differences between their AGM and their gel-cell batteries. I
chose to use this particular manufacturer's data because they make both types
of battery and have presented an application note that helps people choose which
is right for their application.
> as the Odyssey batty is a
> AGM type and has the ability to handle 400-500+ very deep cycles and Does
> not need to be attended to for more than a year due to extremely low self
> discharge. IE no need to have a trickle / maintaner charger on the battery
> for the winter months.
Batteries differ in performance. Clearly you think that the Odyssey battery is
the be-all and end-all of batteries. I admit that it looks pretty good. Still,
the point of my posting was to talk about the generic differences between
VRLA, RG, AGM, sealed, gel-cell, or whatever else they get called. I find that
a lot of people are confused about how to choose a battery and then how to treat
it to get good life out of it. I was *NOT* trying to sell anyone on a particular
brand of battery.
> Further its intended to be for starting. All of the above are commonly said
> to be NOT typical of AGM.
I find that AGMs tend to be a good compromise between a starting and deep-cycle
battery. You may note that I *like* AGM batteries.
> Here is a link where you can download the info on this brand of battery.
> http://www.batterymart.com/pdf_files/odyssey_guide.pdf
Too bad this does not give complete information on properly charging the batteries.
> If you go to the factory web site there is more info.
>
> http://www.odysseyfactory.com/
Good. People need to go look at the manufacturer's recommendations for the proper
care of their battery. They should set up their charging system according
to the manufacturer's recommendations for their battery.
> Charging is simple in an aircraft; put them in parallel (per Bob) and or use
> the Schottky Diode I have recommended in the past. NOT a diode that you
> might find in RS or boat or RV stores that I have seen.
And charging lead-acid batteries is never simple. Batteries die an early death
because they are mistreated, primarily when recharging. That was the other point
of my posting.
> I do not like putting them in parallel for reasons beyond this post but not
> because it is not a good way to charge. In fact Odyssey suggests that method
> is OK. Even with different depth of discharge its ok.
Yes, you can charge two batteries in parallel if they are at different states of
charge as the more discharged battery will hog the current and prevent the more-charged
battery from overcharging. It isn't usually a problem.
But there is a caveat here: both batteries must be of the same type. Doing this
with a gel-cell and an AGM is asking for an early death from one of them.
> This diode allows 100% FULL charge while isolating the back up battery. At
> least with the charging systems on every auto and aircraft have ever heard
> of using normal voltage settings.
All lead-acid batteries, including Odyssey, benefit from a proper three-stage charging
regimen where the charge and float voltages are properly set for the temperature
of the battery. Off-hand settings and off-hand diode drops are not
going to get you optimum life and performance from your battery bank.
But maybe someone doesn't care if they replace their battery every 1-2 years.
It is cheap insurance and batteries aren't all that expensive. In my case I want
to treat the battery as nicely as I can so it doesn't surprise me with an
early failure at the least opportune moment.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
http://www.lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 (voice) +1.360.838.9669 (fax)
There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest.
A good citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises.
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Battery types (Was: 2 batteries, 1 alternator) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
SportAV8R@aol.com wrote:
> Brian; that was lengthy and very informative. Much of it I knew, some learned
the hard way from experience in the 80's with a gel cell battery on float charge
in the ham shack. What you did not address (I think) is the suitability
of the AGM's for aircraft cranking service; I still don't believe, based on my
good experience with the small AGM ("625") turning the Sky-Tec starter in my
RV for over two years now, that a flooded battery or gel cell is _significantly_
better suited for this duty, as I think was implied in the original post.
If that's not what you said, forgive me.
If you want to use a compact battery for engine cranking, AGMs are superior to
both gel-cells and flooded-cell batteries. Just be sure you are getting an AGM
battery because the terms VRLA, "starved electrolyte", "sealed", etc., get thrown
around a lot for both AGM and gel-cell batteries. Many people don't know
the difference and end up with the wrong battery.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
http://www.lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 (voice) +1.360.838.9669 (fax)
There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest.
A good citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises.
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Battery types (Was: 2 batteries, 1 alternator) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Paul Messinger" <paulm@olypen.com>
I did not intend to offend however the entire discussion seems very off the
track for an aircraft.
First; If I ever have a significant depth of discharge, its because of a
Failure of the electrical system. I would not fly again until I have
determined the reason for the failure and corrected it including redesign or
use of different parts.
This includes the need for prolonged attempts to start the engine. If it
takes more than a very few blades or 10 seconds there is a problem that
needs fixing.
Thus depth of discharge cycles is a non issue.
The average pilot fly's under 100 hours per year and even one flight per day
is way less than even the ability of the battery recommended by this group
IE the Panasonic or equivalent widely available 12V 18 AH battery where its
common usage is standby in UPS etc. (Many brands around that are equivalent)
and they have been used for at least 10 years in experimental acft with
multi year life using the "Horrible" alternators hi V and overcharging
ability.
In the purest case I totally agree with what you are saying about the proper
way to care for a battery however in the real world what you suggest is lots
of weight, cost and complexity to implement and I can see no reason to even
consider it for an ACFT. On the other hand in a boat or RV; I would insist
on that methods. But we are comparing the cost per year from under $50 on an
aircraft using Bob's recommendation to many hundreds of $$ for Boat or RV.
We are not running off the battery in an aircraft, we are running off the
alternator and USING the battery as a huge filter cap. Isolate the battery
in any way from this solid essentially zero ohm connection and your
electrical system can turn into a non operation system under transient loads
noise etc. My "load dump" tests demonstrate that even 25,000mfd and no
battery is not safe.
There is abundant info on the proper care and feeding of batteries all over
the web. Its great to be informed on how to care for your battery so it will
last years and years.
It is not so useful however to apply this info to the average acft owner.
Paul
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Lloyd" <brianl@lloyd.com>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Phillips head screws |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
Cheers,
I came across this astounding sequence:
"My experience with hex drive button head screws leads me to passing on
another view. I have found them to be VERY unreliable and that they strip
out
with annoying regularity. When they do strip out, they are the Devils own
to
replace with a FAR MORE RELIABLE Phillips."
The sole quality approaching Reliability is its ability either
to strip its slots or to strip the fins of a properly-mated screwdriver. I
must have a dozen rounded-off drivers lying around as awls.
"10X32 cap screws are fine. Anything smaller, or button heads, NOT ON MY
AIRPLANE! .......................... You will have less sweat on your brow.
"
Even the 3-fin screws discrete to Lockheed L-1011 have more
surface area and greater holding strength.
"Stick to the industry standard."
The "industry standard" which Phillips acquired was as a result
of Henry Ford refusing to use the far-finer Robertson ("square head") screws
from Canada - designed before 1910. When Henry couldn't buy out the
'foreign' plant [Robertson was just as obstinate as Hank), he refused to use
them and instead sought out the Phillips-head. When Army-Navy sought a
standard, the US gubmint chose Phillips over Robertson. So much for
science in 1930's. Of course WW II only hardened the calumny.
Show me a Phillips screwdriver that will hold a screw inverted
with one hand and I'll show you a tool system that is still inferior in
tortional strength, ease of manufacture and cost............
Ferg
Message 16
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
Good Afternoon All,
I have suddenly been presented with a project that needs a lot of rewiring.
It would be nice if I could duplicate the labeling that was done at the
factory.
Are wire labeling devices available at prices we amateurs can afford?
Or, is there another way to accomplish the same result?
I do believe there were a few questions on this subject some time back.
Anybody have a ready source which I could look at for an education?
I did try google, but my research capabilities leave an awful lot to be
desired.
Any suggestions appreciated.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Airpark LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Message 17
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
Do an ebay search with the key word 'Kroy'. I have the Kroy TM600 that I
purchased on ebay for $80. It prints directly onto shrink tube.
FMI, www.kroy.com
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
BobsV35B@aol.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Wire Marking
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
Good Afternoon All,
I have suddenly been presented with a project that needs a lot of
rewiring.
It would be nice if I could duplicate the labeling that was done at the
factory.
Are wire labeling devices available at prices we amateurs can afford?
Or, is there another way to accomplish the same result?
I do believe there were a few questions on this subject some time back.
Anybody have a ready source which I could look at for an education?
I did try google, but my research capabilities leave an awful lot to be
desired.
Any suggestions appreciated.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Airpark LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
==
==
==
==
Message 18
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| Subject: | Z-11 Main Battery Bus |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Sundberg" <davesund@hotmail.com>
I'm using Z-11 as the basis for wiring my RV-7A and have a question pertaining
to the Main Battery Bus. The plan calls for a 16AWG of 6" max. from the batt
side of the Batt Contactor to the Batt Bus, but for various reasons my Batt Bus
is located about 30" from the Batt Contactor. I'm thinking of using either
an 8AWG for the connection or a 14AWG with a 15AMP in-line fuse located 6" from
the Batt Contactor. The only heavy load would come from a power plug where
I may plug in a battery charger.
My preference is to go with the 8AWG so the fuse would not be a concern. Am I
missing something here? Is one option better than the other, or is neither good?
Thanks for the input....................
Dave
Message 19
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| Subject: | Phillips head screws |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BTomm <fvalarm@rapidnet.net>
Unfortunately, Robertson head screws are one of Canada's best kept secrets.
Bevan
RV7A
On Thursday, June 17, 2004 11:09 AM, Fergus Kyle [SMTP:VE3LVO@rac.ca] wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
>
> Cheers,
> I came across this astounding sequence:
> "My experience with hex drive button head screws leads me to passing on
> another view. I have found them to be VERY unreliable and that they strip
> out
> with annoying regularity. When they do strip out, they are the Devils own
> to
> replace with a FAR MORE RELIABLE Phillips."
> The sole quality approaching Reliability is its ability either
> to strip its slots or to strip the fins of a properly-mated screwdriver. I
> must have a dozen rounded-off drivers lying around as awls.
>
> "10X32 cap screws are fine. Anything smaller, or button heads, NOT ON MY
> AIRPLANE! .......................... You will have less sweat on your brow.
> "
> Even the 3-fin screws discrete to Lockheed L-1011 have more
> surface area and greater holding strength.
>
> "Stick to the industry standard."
> The "industry standard" which Phillips acquired was as a result
> of Henry Ford refusing to use the far-finer Robertson ("square head") screws
> from Canada - designed before 1910. When Henry couldn't buy out the
> 'foreign' plant [Robertson was just as obstinate as Hank), he refused to use
> them and instead sought out the Phillips-head. When Army-Navy sought a
> standard, the US gubmint chose Phillips over Robertson. So much for
> science in 1930's. Of course WW II only hardened the calumny.
> Show me a Phillips screwdriver that will hold a screw inverted
> with one hand and I'll show you a tool system that is still inferior in
> tortional strength, ease of manufacture and cost............
> Ferg
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Wire Marking |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
Good Afternoon Bruce,
Thanks for the information. That will probably work, but I was wondering if
anyone made a device to print the numbers directly on the wire as is done by
the airframe manufacturers. It would sure be nice to be able to delve into
a bundle and find out just which wires are there. Having the number repeated
every few inches is a tremendous boon.
It would also be nice to not have to add the extra thickness of the shrink
tubing.
I thought I had seen a hand operated version of such a wire printer many
years ago. Since it does not seem to be readily available, I guess it didn't
work!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Airpark LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re:Adel Clamp Help |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James Foerster" <jmfpublic@comcast.net>
Does anyone know of a source for "type B" sheet metal screws with Torx or Torx
Plus drive? Or hex head? The tinnerman nuts that I ordered from Aircraft Spruce
require the type B screw with its own pitch and its nice blunt but tapered
point. Aircraft Spruce only carries Philips and slotted head (they say to use
on "antiques"). Their catalog does list both truss head and round head screws:
I'm not sure which one to use on Audel clamps, so I ordered both. Experimental
aircraft are supposed to be educational, right?
Hmm. I just remembered that I didn't check McMaster-Carr for this. It is
so easy to order from Aircraft Spruce that I get lazy.
Jim Foerster, J400 and wiring slooowly.
Message 22
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
I've seen them. Big bucks!
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
BobsV35B@aol.com
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wire Marking
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
Good Afternoon Bruce,
Thanks for the information. That will probably work, but I was
wondering if
anyone made a device to print the numbers directly on the wire as is
done by
the airframe manufacturers. It would sure be nice to be able to delve
into
a bundle and find out just which wires are there. Having the number
repeated
every few inches is a tremendous boon.
It would also be nice to not have to add the extra thickness of the
shrink
tubing.
I thought I had seen a hand operated version of such a wire printer many
years ago. Since it does not seem to be readily available, I guess it
didn't
work!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Airpark LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
==
==
==
==
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Wire Marking |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
In a message dated 6/17/04 5:23:18 PM Central Daylight Time,
Bruce@glasair.org writes:
I've seen them. Big bucks!
Bruce
Hi Bruce,
Yep, I guess I either ring out the circuits or use shrink wrap!
Thanks to all for the information.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Airpark LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Wire Marking |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <jimk36@comcast.net>
Bob--
Ring out the wires even if you mark them every 2 inches. Don't ask how I
know.
Jim kaser
----- Original Message -----
From: <BobsV35B@aol.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wire Marking
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
>
>
> In a message dated 6/17/04 5:23:18 PM Central Daylight Time,
> Bruce@glasair.org writes:
>
> I've seen them. Big bucks!
>
> Bruce
>
>
> Hi Bruce,
>
> Yep, I guess I either ring out the circuits or use shrink wrap!
>
> Thanks to all for the information.
>
> Happy Skies,
>
> Old Bob
> AKA
> Bob Siegfried
> Ancient Aviator
> Stearman N3977A
> Brookeridge Airpark LL22
> Downers Grove, IL 60516
> 630 985-8502
>
>
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Phillips head screws |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jerzy Krasinski" <krasinski@provalue.net>
What is Robertson head screw? Do you have a picture?
Jerzy
----- Original Message -----
From: "BTomm" <fvalarm@rapidnet.net>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Phillips head screws
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BTomm <fvalarm@rapidnet.net>
>
> Unfortunately, Robertson head screws are one of Canada's best kept
secrets.
>
> Bevan
> RV7A
>
> On Thursday, June 17, 2004 11:09 AM, Fergus Kyle [SMTP:VE3LVO@rac.ca]
wrote:
> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
> >
> > Cheers,
> > I came across this astounding sequence:
> > "My experience with hex drive button head screws leads me to passing on
> > another view. I have found them to be VERY unreliable and that they
strip
> > out
> > with annoying regularity. When they do strip out, they are the Devils
own
> > to
> > replace with a FAR MORE RELIABLE Phillips."
> > The sole quality approaching Reliability is its ability
either
> > to strip its slots or to strip the fins of a properly-mated screwdriver.
I
> > must have a dozen rounded-off drivers lying around as awls.
> >
> > "10X32 cap screws are fine. Anything smaller, or button heads, NOT ON
MY
> > AIRPLANE! .......................... You will have less sweat on your
brow.
> > "
> > Even the 3-fin screws discrete to Lockheed L-1011 have more
> > surface area and greater holding strength.
> >
> > "Stick to the industry standard."
> > The "industry standard" which Phillips acquired was as a
result
> > of Henry Ford refusing to use the far-finer Robertson ("square head")
screws
> > from Canada - designed before 1910. When Henry couldn't buy out the
> > 'foreign' plant [Robertson was just as obstinate as Hank), he refused to
use
> > them and instead sought out the Phillips-head. When Army-Navy sought a
> > standard, the US gubmint chose Phillips over Robertson. So much for
> > science in 1930's. Of course WW II only hardened the calumny.
> > Show me a Phillips screwdriver that will hold a screw
inverted
> > with one hand and I'll show you a tool system that is still inferior in
> > tortional strength, ease of manufacture and cost............
> > Ferg
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Phillips head screws |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "cgalley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
Square drive hole.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerzy Krasinski" <krasinski@provalue.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Phillips head screws
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jerzy Krasinski"
<krasinski@provalue.net>
>
> What is Robertson head screw? Do you have a picture?
>
> Jerzy
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "BTomm" <fvalarm@rapidnet.net>
> To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Phillips head screws
>
>
> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BTomm <fvalarm@rapidnet.net>
> >
> > Unfortunately, Robertson head screws are one of Canada's best kept
> secrets.
> >
> > Bevan
> > RV7A
> >
> > On Thursday, June 17, 2004 11:09 AM, Fergus Kyle [SMTP:VE3LVO@rac.ca]
> wrote:
> > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > I came across this astounding sequence:
> > > "My experience with hex drive button head screws leads me to passing
on
> > > another view. I have found them to be VERY unreliable and that they
> strip
> > > out
> > > with annoying regularity. When they do strip out, they are the Devils
> own
> > > to
> > > replace with a FAR MORE RELIABLE Phillips."
> > > The sole quality approaching Reliability is its ability
> either
> > > to strip its slots or to strip the fins of a properly-mated
screwdriver.
> I
> > > must have a dozen rounded-off drivers lying around as awls.
> > >
> > > "10X32 cap screws are fine. Anything smaller, or button heads, NOT
ON
> MY
> > > AIRPLANE! .......................... You will have less sweat on your
> brow.
> > > "
> > > Even the 3-fin screws discrete to Lockheed L-1011 have more
> > > surface area and greater holding strength.
> > >
> > > "Stick to the industry standard."
> > > The "industry standard" which Phillips acquired was as a
> result
> > > of Henry Ford refusing to use the far-finer Robertson ("square head")
> screws
> > > from Canada - designed before 1910. When Henry couldn't buy out the
> > > 'foreign' plant [Robertson was just as obstinate as Hank), he refused
to
> use
> > > them and instead sought out the Phillips-head. When Army-Navy sought a
> > > standard, the US gubmint chose Phillips over Robertson. So much for
> > > science in 1930's. Of course WW II only hardened the calumny.
> > > Show me a Phillips screwdriver that will hold a screw
> inverted
> > > with one hand and I'll show you a tool system that is still inferior
in
> > > tortional strength, ease of manufacture and cost............
> > > Ferg
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 27
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| Subject: | Off to California . . . |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
Dee and I are packing for the Long Beach weekend seminar. Be
back on-line Monday. It's not too late to join us! Just walk
in Saturday morning and we'll find a place for you.
Bob . . .
-----------------------------------------
( Experience and common sense cannot be )
( replaced with policy and procedures. )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
-----------------------------------------
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Phillips head screws |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" <jjewell@telus.net>
To add just a bit more info Robertson head screws have a square hole that is
progressively tapered toward the bottom of the hole. In Canada they are
commonly found holding manufactured goods such as washers and driers
etc.together. They are also extensively used in the building trades.
In use they are less likely to strip out the head.
If put on the screw driver to reach into tight quarters they will stay put
some what better.
They come in a full range of screw fastener types and sizes including
drywall wood and machine screw applications.
I can send you a picture as this email is much less than a thousand words.
{[g-)!
Jim in Kelowna the smoke devils stayed in the wires! Yeah !!
----- Original Message -----
From: "cgalley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Phillips head screws
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "cgalley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
>
> Square drive hole.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jerzy Krasinski" <krasinski@provalue.net>
> To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Phillips head screws
>
>
> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jerzy Krasinski"
> <krasinski@provalue.net>
> >
> > What is Robertson head screw? Do you have a picture?
> >
> > Jerzy
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "BTomm" <fvalarm@rapidnet.net>
> > To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Phillips head screws
> >
> >
> > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BTomm <fvalarm@rapidnet.net>
> > >
> > > Unfortunately, Robertson head screws are one of Canada's best kept
> > secrets.
> > >
> > > Bevan
> > > RV7A
> > >
> > > On Thursday, June 17, 2004 11:09 AM, Fergus Kyle [SMTP:VE3LVO@rac.ca]
> > wrote:
> > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle"
<VE3LVO@rac.ca>
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > I came across this astounding sequence:
> > > > "My experience with hex drive button head screws leads me to passing
> on
> > > > another view. I have found them to be VERY unreliable and that they
> > strip
> > > > out
> > > > with annoying regularity. When they do strip out, they are the
Devils
> > own
> > > > to
> > > > replace with a FAR MORE RELIABLE Phillips."
> > > > The sole quality approaching Reliability is its ability
> > either
> > > > to strip its slots or to strip the fins of a properly-mated
> screwdriver.
> > I
> > > > must have a dozen rounded-off drivers lying around as awls.
> > > >
> > > > "10X32 cap screws are fine. Anything smaller, or button heads, NOT
> ON
> > MY
> > > > AIRPLANE! .......................... You will have less sweat on
your
> > brow.
> > > > "
> > > > Even the 3-fin screws discrete to Lockheed L-1011 have
more
> > > > surface area and greater holding strength.
> > > >
> > > > "Stick to the industry standard."
> > > > The "industry standard" which Phillips acquired was as a
> > result
> > > > of Henry Ford refusing to use the far-finer Robertson ("square
head")
> > screws
> > > > from Canada - designed before 1910. When Henry couldn't buy out the
> > > > 'foreign' plant [Robertson was just as obstinate as Hank), he
refused
> to
> > use
> > > > them and instead sought out the Phillips-head. When Army-Navy sought
a
> > > > standard, the US gubmint chose Phillips over Robertson. So much
for
> > > > science in 1930's. Of course WW II only hardened the calumny.
> > > > Show me a Phillips screwdriver that will hold a screw
> > inverted
> > > > with one hand and I'll show you a tool system that is still inferior
> in
> > > > tortional strength, ease of manufacture and cost............
> > > > Ferg
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Phillips head screws |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Paul <pwilson@climber.org>
At 8:29 PM -0500 6/17/04, cgalley wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "cgalley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
>
>Square drive hole.
====
Like the ones I buy at Home Depot for wood/decks/drywall
--
Message 30
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <bakerocb@cox.net>
<<AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: LRE2@aol.com
My experience with hex drive button head screws leads me to passing on another
view. I have found them to be VERY unreliable and that they strip out with annoying
regularity. When they do strip out, they are the Devils own to replace with
a FAR MORE RELIABLE Phillips.10X32 cap screws are fine. Anything smaller,
or button heads, NOT ON MY AIRPLANE! Stick to the industry standard. You will
have less sweat on your brow. LRE>>
6/17/2004
Hello LRE, There is some truth to what you say, but please let me add a few words.
Cap screws come in the normal cylinder head shape (frequently with knurled exterior)
and the less common button head shape. For a given size cap screw the cylinder
head screw will have a larger size hex socket than the button head screw.
This means the smaller hex drive socket in the button head screw cannot handle
as much torque as the cylinder head screw. So unless the situation demands
a button head shaped screw one should favor the cylinder head shaped screw.
Also socket stripping tends to be a problem in only the smaller sized screws, #4
and #6. (I generally avoid #4 screws where ever possible). Realize also that
these screws are not intended for structural use so high torques are not really
expected or appropriate. It is also important that one use good quality and
not worn out hex inserts. Once a hex insert has stripped out a screw head the
condition of the insert itself should be highly suspect and a quick toss to the
trash can may save further aggravation. I favor inserts over tools with built
on handles because of the natural reluctance to throw away a whole good tool.**
Over the past 54 years as a US Navy mechanic, A&P mechanic, Aeronautical Engineer,
pilot and amateur builder I have installed, removed, and, when needed drilled
and extracted, thousands of Phillips head screws. In my current homebuilt
I doubt if there are more than a dozen Phillips head screws -- and only when they
cannot be avoided. In my engine compartment alone I have a hundred or more
hex socket head cap screws, both cylinder and button heads, fastening in engine
baffles and baffle seals and holding Adel clamps. These screws were threaded
into metal stop nuts. Stripping out screw sockets during installation was never
a big issue.
OC
**PS: My father-in-law bought cheap tools and he never threw a tool away. When
he set out to do a home handy man act involving screws the first thing he did
was ruin the screw slot with a worn out screwdriver. After he passed away I threw
away almost every tool that he had owned.
Message 31
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ron Koyich" <Ron@Koyich.com>
>> Since it does not seem to be readily available, I guess it didn't
work!<<
Hey, Bob - they worked well - I used to have on in my avionics shop.
Turn the crank, the wire was pulled through the machine and the hot stamp
came down onto the film with the heat sensitive ink which was transferred
to the wire.
For now I can't remember the name of the company that made them.<g>
Ron
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Off to California . . . |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James Redmon" <james@berkut13.com>
Geez...you all should stay for Rutan's flight into space! 6:30am Monday
morning - Mojave airport! www.scaled.com
-James
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Off to California . . .
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
> Dee and I are packing for the Long Beach weekend seminar. Be
> back on-line Monday. It's not too late to join us! Just walk
> in Saturday morning and we'll find a place for you.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> -----------------------------------------
> ( Experience and common sense cannot be )
> ( replaced with policy and procedures. )
> ( R. L. Nuckolls III )
> -----------------------------------------
Message 33
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| Subject: | Garmin/Navaid interface |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Anglin" <jlanglin44@earthlink.net>
I am having trouble figuring out which pin goes to which pin to navigate
with input from my Garmin GNC 300XL to my Navaid autopilot. If anyone out
there has some positive input I will listen. I have the Smart Coupler in my
autopilot if that helps.
Jim Anglin
HR II
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