---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 06/17/04: 33 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:15 AM - Re: Adel Clamp Help (Dan Checkoway) 2. 04:01 AM - Battery types (Was: 2 batteries, 1 alternator) (Brian Lloyd) 3. 05:39 AM - Z-14 Dual Alternators (John Schroeder) 4. 05:47 AM - Re: Adel Clamp Help (John Schroeder) 5. 05:56 AM - Re: running power and ground through dsub connectors (CardinalNSB@aol.com) 6. 06:53 AM - Re: Battery types (Was: 2 batteries, 1 alternator) (Ken) 7. 06:59 AM - Re: Battery types (Was: 2 batteries, 1 alternator) (Paul Messinger) 8. 07:30 AM - Re: Battery types (Was: 2 batteries, 1 alternator) (SportAV8R@aol.com) 9. 07:33 AM - Re: NiMh battery testing (SportAV8R@aol.com) 10. 07:52 AM - Re: Battery types (Was: 2 batteries, 1 alternator) (Brian Lloyd) 11. 08:11 AM - Re: Adel Clamp Help (Mickey Coggins) 12. 08:33 AM - Re: Battery types (Was: 2 batteries, 1 alternator) (Brian Lloyd) 13. 08:37 AM - Re: Battery types (Was: 2 batteries, 1 alternator) (Brian Lloyd) 14. 10:55 AM - Re: Battery types (Was: 2 batteries, 1 alternator) (Paul Messinger) 15. 11:08 AM - Phillips head screws (Fergus Kyle) 16. 11:34 AM - Wire Marking (BobsV35B@aol.com) 17. 11:55 AM - Re: Wire Marking (Bruce Gray) 18. 11:57 AM - Z-11 Main Battery Bus (Dave Sundberg) 19. 01:53 PM - Re: Phillips head screws (BTomm) 20. 02:24 PM - Re: Wire Marking (BobsV35B@aol.com) 21. 03:10 PM - Re:Adel Clamp Help (James Foerster) 22. 03:22 PM - Re: Wire Marking (Bruce Gray) 23. 03:54 PM - Re: Wire Marking (BobsV35B@aol.com) 24. 04:28 PM - Re: Wire Marking () 25. 05:07 PM - Re: Phillips head screws (Jerzy Krasinski) 26. 06:30 PM - Re: Phillips head screws (cgalley) 27. 07:00 PM - Off to California . . . (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 28. 07:16 PM - Re: Phillips head screws (Jim Jewell) 29. 07:21 PM - Re: Phillips head screws (Paul) 30. 08:05 PM - Adel Clamp Help () 31. 09:14 PM - Re: Wire Marking (Ron Koyich) 32. 09:43 PM - Re: Off to California . . . (James Redmon) 33. 09:45 PM - Garmin/Navaid interface (Jim Anglin) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:15:17 AM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Adel Clamp Help --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" > I have purchased a bunch of torx screws from microfasteners > and use them everywhere. Unfortunately they only > have a pretty limited range of lengths. Go with McMaster Carr -- http://www.mcmaster.com Enter "machine screws" or "socket head cap screws" in to the search box, and you can use their "wizard" to narrow down what you want. Torx screws from McMaster come in lengths from 1/8" to 3". )_( Dan RV-7 N714D http://www.rvproject.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:01:55 AM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery types (Was: 2 batteries, 1 alternator) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd SportAV8R@aol.com wrote: > Brian, I predict you are about to hear how a starved electrolyte RG battery will serve well in both applications. Okay, I just fulfilled my own prediction, didn't I? ;-) Guess what, a gel-cell is also a "starved electrolyte RG battery." I remember someone telling me that AGMs were common and when one got a "gel-cell" it was really most likely an AGM battery. I have since learned that this is not the case and there really are some substantial differences between the various types of lead-acid battery. All these batteries are variations of the venerable lead-acid rechargeable battery. The most common is the type with an excess of liquid electrolyte. This is known as the flooded-cell battery. The plates are either made up of lead-antimony or lead-calcium. The former is often found in "deep cycle" batteries but uses more water and must be topped up regularly. It also suffers from a greater level of self-discharge (it slowly goes dead by itself). The latter is used in "maintenance free" batteries used in cars. They don't use as much water but they don't like deep discharge. At some point in time someone got the idea to add a binder to the electrolyte that turns it into a jelly-like substance. That formed the basis of the gel-cell. The problem with gel-cells is that ions do not travel quite as well through the jelly so you cannot charge or discharge these cells as rapidly without damage as you can the flooded-cell batteries. Later on someone got the idea of using a fine fiberglass separator between the plates of the battery and adding just enough electrolyte to fill the spaces in the fiberglass separator/insulator. Capillary action keeps the electrolyte trapped between the plates. This became known as the Absorbed Glass Mat (AGM) or "starved electrolyte" battery. They have some of the characteristics of both gel-cell and flooded-cell batteries and make a good compromise between the two. Both gel-cell and AGM batteries are recombinant gas (RG) batteries. This means that the hydrogen and oxygen gas created by electrolysis at the end of the charging cycle (think about the bubbles in a flooded-cell battery when it is almost fully charged) recombine back into water inside the battery. This means the batteries can be sealed and will never need you to add water ... as long as you don't abuse them by overcharging. (More on this later.) Flooded-cell batteries can take a lot of overcharging abuse before they fail. Gel-cell and AGM batteries cannot take much abuse. If you overcharge a flooded-cell battery, it just converts more of the water into gas, a problem solved by simply adding more water to the battery. If you overcharge either a gel-cell or AGM battery the gasses cannot recombine into water fast enough so the pressure in the cell rises until the overpressure valve pops off letting the gas escape (and thus keeping the battery from exploding). That is water needed by the cell to function and it is never replaced. Your battery is on its way to an early death when this happens. Remember also that lead-acid batteries can get too hot during heavy charge and discharge cycles. Again, flooded-cell batteries have lots of liquid that can circulate and help carry the heat away from the plates. Gel-cell and AGM batteries can't do that. The hot plates can warp and cause the cell to fail early. This is more of a problem with gel-cells than with AGMs. And speaking of heat, there is also the problem of thermal runaway. As you warm up a lead-acid battery it will accept more current from its charging source. If you have a constant-voltage charger such as we have in our airplanes (the output voltage of the alternator is kept constant by the voltage regulator) then when the battery warms up it will take more current. Consider what happens on a hot summer day as you crank and crank your fuel-injected engine during a hot-start and give the battery a deep discharge as well as let it get hot from all the starting current passing through it. The battery may be very hot after that and then you throw 50A or 100A at it from that big alternator you have up there. The battery is going to be damaged by this and can even catch fire. This is very high on my "things you don't want to have happen while flying" list. So how many life cycles can you expect out of your batteries and how do you charge them safely? I don't know what batteries you have but here is some data for the AGM and gel-cell batteries from Deka (East Penn Manufacturing), the company that supplies the 225AH AGM batteries I use on my boat (I have four of them). Deka has a very comprehensive white paper on the care and feeding of their "Valve Regulated Lead Acid (VRLA)" sealed batteries. You can find this paper at http://www.eastpenn-deka.com/products/pdfs/0139.pdf. Looking at page 10 of their white paper there is a chart of battery life vs. depth-of-discharge for the two types of battery. I reproduce it here: Typical VRLA Battery Cycling Ability vs. Depth of Discharge Typical Life Cycles Capacity Withdrawn Gel AGM 100% 450 150 80% 600 200 50% 1000 370 25% 2100 925 10% 5700 3100 What is apparent from this chart is that if you are cycling your cells deeply, gel-cells will last a lot longer than will AGMs. That is why you want to get gel-cells to power things when they must often run on battery power and the battery will be significantly discharged. How Improper Charging Kills Batteries As I said before, it is easy to damage a sealed battery by overcharging it. It can give off gas faster than it can recombine into water. It is also easy to damage it by undercharging. In that case the plates develop a sulphate coating that prevents the plate from delivering all its charge thus leading to a steady degradation of the battery. (Does this sound familiar?) With flooded-cell batteries you just overcharge them a bit. OK, they outgas a lot and you have to add water but they seem to last pretty well. This is what the average aircraft charging system does to your battery in the summer. In the winter the electrical system does not have a high enough voltage to properly charge a battery so these batteries end up perennially undercharged in the winter. The plates suffer from sulphation and battery capacity slowly goes away. In summer they come back a bit by overcharging them but this kind of abuse still leads to a shot battery after about 4 years. Now if you have a VRLA battery, either AGM or gel-cell, the summer overcharging kills them very quickly. I remember being so happy when Concorde and others started making sealed AGM batteries available for aircraft. I was actually excited by the prospect of no more cleaning corrosion out of my battery boxes. The problem was, the batteries went bad after a little over a year in the airplane. I think one went two years before failing. I was not a happy camper. Now I know why the problem occurs. The standard aircraft alternator/VR combo kills sealed batteries. How to properly charge Lead-Acid Batteries The problem stems from the fact that the voltage needed to charge a battery properly is too high to keep the battery from overcharging. If you drop the voltage to a proper maintenance level to prevent damage, the battery won't charge. Add to that the fact that the proper voltages change with temperature and you can see why these batteries die an early death. To properly charge and maintain a battery you need to do it in three steps. They are: * Bulk charge * Absorption charge * float charge When a battery is seriously depleted, it needs to go through the bulk charge phase. This is usually a constant current that puts back most of the charge in the battery. The bulk charge phase gets the battery to about 80% of full charge. As the battery goes through the bulk charge phase its voltage will continue to rise. When it reaches a certain voltage the charger needs to switch to constant voltage charging at the absorption voltage. In your airplane this is the regulator setpoint. At this point the voltage stays constant and the current drops until the battery is fully charged. The battery will be fully charged when the charging current drops to about 5% of the battery's rating. For example, for a 20Ah battery this would be 1A. But what happens now? If you leave the battery on this charge voltage it will now begin to overcharge and generate too much gas. Keeping the voltage at this set point will now start to destroy the battery. What needs to happen is to drop the charge voltage low enough that the battery will neither charge nor discharge. This is the float charge phase of the charging cycle. Keeping the battery at this float voltage will ensure it stays charged but won't be damaged. Here are the values for absorption and float voltages for different temperatures for the Deka AGM and Gel-Cell batteries: AGM Charge and Float Voltages at Various Temperature Ranges Temp. Charge Float Temp. F Optimum Maximum Optimum Maximum C >120 13.60 13.90 12.80 13.00 >49 110 120 13.80 14.10 12.90 13.20 43 49 100 110 13.90 14.20 13.00 13.30 38 43 90 100 14.00 14.30 13.10 13.40 32 38 80 90 14.10 14.40 13.20 13.50 27 32 70 80 14.30 14.60 13.40 13.70 21 27 60 70 14.45 14.75 13.55 13.85 16 21 50 60 14.60 14.90 13.70 14.00 10 16 40 50 14.80 15.10 13.90 14.20 4 10 <40 15.10 15.40 14.20 14.50 <4 Gel Charge and Float Voltages at Various Temperature Ranges Temp. Charge Float Temp. F Optimum Maximum Optimum Maximum C >120 13.00 13.30 12.80 13.00 >49 110 120 13.20 13.50 12.90 13.20 44 48 100 109 13.30 13.60 13.00 13.30 38 43 90 99 13.40 13.70 13.10 13.40 32 37 80 89 13.50 13.80 13.20 13.50 27 31 70 79 13.70 14.00 13.40 13.70 21 26 60 69 13.85 14.15 13.55 13.85 16 20 50 59 14.00 14.30 13.70 14.00 10 15 40 49 14.20 14.50 13.90 14.20 5 9 <40 14.50 14.80 14.20 14.50 <4 Three things to notice right away: 1. the proper charging voltages for AGM and Gel-Cell batteries are very different; 2. the proper charging voltages vary greatly with temperature; 3. there is a big difference between the absorption charge and float voltages. The approach taken by automotive and aircraft electrical systems is to pick an average value that will charge the battery but not overcharge it too much and will be good for the average temperature in which the battery will operate. This works after a fashion for flooded-cell batteries. Still, you can make your battery last longer by adjusting the voltage set point of your voltage regulator depending on the temperature. The B&C alternator controller that Bob designed does this and is a big win over standard voltage regulators. In my not-so-humble-opinion the temperature compensation option is a necessity, not a luxury. But even that is not enough. You really need a regulator that will switch to a lower voltage once the battery has been recharged. The only saving grace is that people usually don't fly long enough to let the battery seriously overcharge. Long cross country flights in summer down low where the battery gets warm are real killers unless you turn the charge voltage down to the proper float voltage. Unfortunately most regulators in cars and aircraft do NOT offer this feature. This feature *has* become standard in aftermarket external voltage regulators for the marine and RV markets. I happen to have chosen Ample Power's Smart Alternator Regulator V3 (SAR-V3-24P) for my boat since it will drive dual alternators (I have two engines) and properly charge my battery bank. I will probably use this regulator in my all-electric CJ6A also. When the alternator fails I want the batteries to be healthy. And with regard to AGM vs. Gel-Cell, I made the mistake of choosing AGM for my boat's battery bank. They won't last as long in deep-cycle service. Still, that is what I have and I try not to discharge them too deeply. When they finally reach the end of their life they will be replaced with Gel-Cell batteries. OTOH they are 2 years old and showing no signs of losing their capacity. I am hoping to get 6-7 years of good use out of them before having to replace them. And at $400 apiece, I don't want to have to replace them very often. So now to get back to the original comment of AGMs vs. Gel-Cells, I think I can safely say they are NOT the same. Still, both can serve very well if treated properly. -- Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201 http://www.lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802 +1.340.998.9447 (voice) +1.360.838.9669 (fax) There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest. A good citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:39:09 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z-14 Dual Alternators From: John Schroeder --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Schroeder Bob - We have a 70 amp alternator and will put a B&C SD-20 on the vacuum pad for the second system of the Z-14. The questions are shunts and ANL current limiters. 1. Since B&C does not carry a 70 amp shunt, we ordered a 75 amp. Is this OK? 2. Since B&C does not have a 20 or a 70 amp ANL, we ordered a 40 to use on the 20 amp alternator and a 60 to use for the 70 amp alternator. Are these OK? 3. Or should we try to obtain them elsewhere? 4. Are there any operational cautions to bear in mind using these mismatches in components for the alternators? Many thanks, John ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:47:03 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Adel Clamp Help From: John Schroeder --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Schroeder Mickey - We are also using the ss torx drive screws everywhere. Keep spreading the gospel and maybe John at Micro Fasteners will order a few more lengths. We bought double the amount we need because we feared he would not carry them past the first mfg. run!! Cheers, John ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:56:21 AM PST US From: CardinalNSB@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: running power and ground through dsub connectors --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: CardinalNSB@aol.com Hello. The manual calls out for two 18awg power wires for my Garmin 300xl, and they give oversized pins for 18 awg. The manual only calls out for a 10 amp breaker, so why the overkill on two power wires. (14 volt system) I understand the dsub pins are generally rated for 6 amps each, so two with 20 awg should be protected by a 10 amp breaker? Is this standard avionics wiring practice? I can only think this is in case one wire falls out of the crimp? I was planning to run the power and ground through the dsubs for all my avionics, should I use double wire in the regular pins, even though my other breakers are 5 amp or less? Are there any issues (other than current draw) I should be aware of, or any other reasons not to run the power and ground through the dsubs? Should the power and ground wires be twisted or simplly wired like in a bundle? Where can I easily get more oversized pins and sockets for 18awg? Thank you all, Skip Simpson ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:53:19 AM PST US From: Ken Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery types (Was: 2 batteries, 1 alternator) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken I have never liked using an automotive V.R. designed for a flooded cell battery on a small RG battery. As a cheap band-aid, I have occasionally wondered about using a diode to drop the voltage going to the battery on those long summer cruises. There are several possible ways of doing that and of course several potential problems. No I've never tried this; I'm NOT recommending it, and yes obviously the correct external VR is the real solution. I'm merely throwing out an idea to see what discussion it might generate. Eventually perhaps I'll try something for the PM alternator half of my modified Z-14 architecture (no conventional battery contactors) after I see what the real voltages and RG battery life turn out to be. 25 years ago I built a linear VR for my old farm tractor with much more temperature compensation than normal. A different compromise, but I think it helps extend battery life in that particular application (often 10 years of combination car and tractor service) before sulfation kills that flooded cell battery. Ken Brian Lloyd wrote: >>snip >> ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:59:00 AM PST US From: "Paul Messinger" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery types (Was: 2 batteries, 1 alternator) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Paul Messinger" To each his own. It very common for a MFGR to compare his product to some other inferior product. However in this case the data is very misleading as the Odyssey batty is a AGM type and has the ability to handle 400-500+ very deep cycles and Does not need to be attended to for more than a year due to extremely low self discharge. IE no need to have a trickle / maintaner charger on the battery for the winter months. Further its intended to be for starting. All of the above are commonly said to be NOT typical of AGM. Here is a link where you can download the info on this brand of battery. http://www.batterymart.com/pdf_files/odyssey_guide.pdf If you go to the factory web site there is more info. http://www.odysseyfactory.com/ Charging is simple in an aircraft; put them in parallel (per Bob) and or use the Schottky Diode I have recommended in the past. NOT a diode that you might find in RS or boat or RV stores that I have seen. I do not like putting them in parallel for reasons beyond this post but not because it is not a good way to charge. In fact Odyssey suggests that method is OK. Even with different depth of discharge its ok. This diode allows 100% FULL charge while isolating the back up battery. At least with the charging systems on every auto and aircraft have ever heard of using normal voltage settings. Paul > Typical VRLA Battery Cycling Ability vs. Depth of Discharge > > Typical Life Cycles > Capacity Withdrawn Gel AGM > 100% 450 150 > 80% 600 200 > 50% 1000 370 > 25% 2100 925 > 10% 5700 3100 > > What is apparent from this chart is that if you are cycling your cells deeply, gel-cells will last a lot longer than will AGMs. That is why you want to get gel-cells to power things when they must often run on battery power and the battery will be significantly discharged. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:30:22 AM PST US From: SportAV8R@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery types (Was: 2 batteries, 1 alternator) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: SportAV8R@aol.com Brian; that was lengthy and very informative. Much of it I knew, some learned the hard way from experience in the 80's with a gel cell battery on float charge in the ham shack. What you did not address (I think) is the suitability of the AGM's for aircraft cranking service; I still don't believe, based on my good experience with the small AGM ("625") turning the Sky-Tec starter in my RV for over two years now, that a flooded battery or gel cell is _significantly_ better suited for this duty, as I think was implied in the original post. If that's not what you said, forgive me. -BB ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:33:31 AM PST US From: SportAV8R@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: NiMh battery testing --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: SportAV8R@aol.com In a message dated 6/16/2004 6:36:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, khorton01@rogers.com writes: > >You might also want to run them through several charge/discharge > >cycles to see if their capacity increases. My experience with NiMH > >battery packs in handheld radios is that they don't reach full > >capacity until you go through several full charge/discharge cycles. > > > > The Motorola NiMH batteries in my cell phone had very little > perceived capacity when I first got the phone. I almost returned the > phone, as I was extremely disappointed with the battery life. But > the batteries' perceived capacity increased about four-fold > after > several discharge-charge cycles. > > -- > Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Doing that experiment today, at the office, between appointments. Will post results. do not archive -BB ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:52:46 AM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery types (Was: 2 batteries, 1 alternator) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd Ken wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken > > I have never liked using an automotive V.R. designed for a flooded cell > battery on a small RG battery. The problem is not the VR. It just sets the voltage. It depends on how much current you try to source to the battery when it is discharged. Normally your alternator is your current limiter and the battery is not seriously discharged so it goes right into the absorption charge (constant voltage) stage and current falls off very quickly. > As a cheap band-aid, I have occasionally > wondered about using a diode to drop the voltage going to the battery on > those long summer cruises. The will drop the voltage but resetting your VR to the proper voltage or getting a temperature compensated VR is a much better answer. > Eventually perhaps I'll try something for the PM alternator half of my > modified Z-14 architecture (no conventional battery contactors) after > I see what the real voltages and RG battery life turn out to be. The numbers I provided are from Deka for their batteries but you will find more similarity than differences between AGMs across the various manufacturers. Has anyone considered building a boost/buck high-frequency switching regulator for the PM alternators, one that will optimize the operating point? People are starting to do that for solar panels and getting an extra 10% out of the panels by optimizing their operating point. Of course, that assumes that the PM alternators (dynamos actually) can operate at 100% for long periods of time. > 25 years ago I built a linear VR for my old farm tractor with much more > temperature compensation than normal. A different compromise, but I > think it helps extend battery life in that particular application (often > 10 years of combination car and tractor service) before sulfation kills > that flooded cell battery. Right. The guy who started Ample Power is going on 12 years for his gel-cell "house" battery bank. There is no need for batteries to die an early death. -- Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201 http://www.lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802 +1.340.998.9447 (voice) +1.360.838.9669 (fax) There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest. A good citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:11:35 AM PST US From: Mickey Coggins Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Adel Clamp Help --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins It's nice that he has the 100 degree flat heads, I have not found them in non-metric sizes anywhere else. I have to schedule a visit to Toulouse to visit the Airbus factory. I'm curious if they use standard sized nuts and bolts or metric. Luckily for me I'm "bilingual", growing up in Texas, but I have to say I'm more comfortable with metric. I sure feel sorry for the Euros being immersed in English units when building an aircraft! Mickey At 15:02 17-06-04, John Schroeder wrote: -----Start of Original Message----- >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Schroeder > >Mickey - > >We are also using the ss torx drive screws everywhere. Keep spreading the >gospel and maybe John at Micro Fasteners will order a few more lengths. We >bought double the amount we need because we feared he would not carry them >past the first mfg. run!! > >Cheers, > >John -- Mickey Coggins http://www.rv8.ch/ #82007 QB Wings/Fuselage do not archive ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:33:38 AM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery types (Was: 2 batteries, 1 alternator) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd Paul Messinger wrote: > It very common for a MFGR to compare his product to some other inferior > product. If you look at what I posted, Deka was comparing their own AGM to their own Gel-Cell. The batteries are designed for different applications. One does not use gel-cells in short-term high-load applications such as starting engines. AGMs are ideal for that. OTOH, AGMs are inferior to gel-cells for low-rate, long-term, deep-cycle applications. Deka makes both and they cost about the same. They don't care which one you buy from them. They do care if they fail during the warantee period so they want you to pick the right one and use it properly. A particular AGM might be superior to a particular gel-cell for a particular low-rate, deep-cycle application but *IN* *GENERAL* gel-cells excel at this particular application. If you read my posting again you will see that I say that the AGM is a good compromise. > However in this case the data is very misleading No, it is not misleading in the least and I resent this comment. It is the data that Deka provides for the proper operation of their battery for best life. It does not compare itself to any other battery other than to try to explain the application differences between their AGM and their gel-cell batteries. I chose to use this particular manufacturer's data because they make both types of battery and have presented an application note that helps people choose which is right for their application. > as the Odyssey batty is a > AGM type and has the ability to handle 400-500+ very deep cycles and Does > not need to be attended to for more than a year due to extremely low self > discharge. IE no need to have a trickle / maintaner charger on the battery > for the winter months. Batteries differ in performance. Clearly you think that the Odyssey battery is the be-all and end-all of batteries. I admit that it looks pretty good. Still, the point of my posting was to talk about the generic differences between VRLA, RG, AGM, sealed, gel-cell, or whatever else they get called. I find that a lot of people are confused about how to choose a battery and then how to treat it to get good life out of it. I was *NOT* trying to sell anyone on a particular brand of battery. > Further its intended to be for starting. All of the above are commonly said > to be NOT typical of AGM. I find that AGMs tend to be a good compromise between a starting and deep-cycle battery. You may note that I *like* AGM batteries. > Here is a link where you can download the info on this brand of battery. > http://www.batterymart.com/pdf_files/odyssey_guide.pdf Too bad this does not give complete information on properly charging the batteries. > If you go to the factory web site there is more info. > > http://www.odysseyfactory.com/ Good. People need to go look at the manufacturer's recommendations for the proper care of their battery. They should set up their charging system according to the manufacturer's recommendations for their battery. > Charging is simple in an aircraft; put them in parallel (per Bob) and or use > the Schottky Diode I have recommended in the past. NOT a diode that you > might find in RS or boat or RV stores that I have seen. And charging lead-acid batteries is never simple. Batteries die an early death because they are mistreated, primarily when recharging. That was the other point of my posting. > I do not like putting them in parallel for reasons beyond this post but not > because it is not a good way to charge. In fact Odyssey suggests that method > is OK. Even with different depth of discharge its ok. Yes, you can charge two batteries in parallel if they are at different states of charge as the more discharged battery will hog the current and prevent the more-charged battery from overcharging. It isn't usually a problem. But there is a caveat here: both batteries must be of the same type. Doing this with a gel-cell and an AGM is asking for an early death from one of them. > This diode allows 100% FULL charge while isolating the back up battery. At > least with the charging systems on every auto and aircraft have ever heard > of using normal voltage settings. All lead-acid batteries, including Odyssey, benefit from a proper three-stage charging regimen where the charge and float voltages are properly set for the temperature of the battery. Off-hand settings and off-hand diode drops are not going to get you optimum life and performance from your battery bank. But maybe someone doesn't care if they replace their battery every 1-2 years. It is cheap insurance and batteries aren't all that expensive. In my case I want to treat the battery as nicely as I can so it doesn't surprise me with an early failure at the least opportune moment. -- Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201 http://www.lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802 +1.340.998.9447 (voice) +1.360.838.9669 (fax) There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest. A good citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:37:05 AM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery types (Was: 2 batteries, 1 alternator) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd SportAV8R@aol.com wrote: > Brian; that was lengthy and very informative. Much of it I knew, some learned the hard way from experience in the 80's with a gel cell battery on float charge in the ham shack. What you did not address (I think) is the suitability of the AGM's for aircraft cranking service; I still don't believe, based on my good experience with the small AGM ("625") turning the Sky-Tec starter in my RV for over two years now, that a flooded battery or gel cell is _significantly_ better suited for this duty, as I think was implied in the original post. If that's not what you said, forgive me. If you want to use a compact battery for engine cranking, AGMs are superior to both gel-cells and flooded-cell batteries. Just be sure you are getting an AGM battery because the terms VRLA, "starved electrolyte", "sealed", etc., get thrown around a lot for both AGM and gel-cell batteries. Many people don't know the difference and end up with the wrong battery. -- Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201 http://www.lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802 +1.340.998.9447 (voice) +1.360.838.9669 (fax) There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest. A good citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:55:20 AM PST US From: "Paul Messinger" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery types (Was: 2 batteries, 1 alternator) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Paul Messinger" I did not intend to offend however the entire discussion seems very off the track for an aircraft. First; If I ever have a significant depth of discharge, its because of a Failure of the electrical system. I would not fly again until I have determined the reason for the failure and corrected it including redesign or use of different parts. This includes the need for prolonged attempts to start the engine. If it takes more than a very few blades or 10 seconds there is a problem that needs fixing. Thus depth of discharge cycles is a non issue. The average pilot fly's under 100 hours per year and even one flight per day is way less than even the ability of the battery recommended by this group IE the Panasonic or equivalent widely available 12V 18 AH battery where its common usage is standby in UPS etc. (Many brands around that are equivalent) and they have been used for at least 10 years in experimental acft with multi year life using the "Horrible" alternators hi V and overcharging ability. In the purest case I totally agree with what you are saying about the proper way to care for a battery however in the real world what you suggest is lots of weight, cost and complexity to implement and I can see no reason to even consider it for an ACFT. On the other hand in a boat or RV; I would insist on that methods. But we are comparing the cost per year from under $50 on an aircraft using Bob's recommendation to many hundreds of $$ for Boat or RV. We are not running off the battery in an aircraft, we are running off the alternator and USING the battery as a huge filter cap. Isolate the battery in any way from this solid essentially zero ohm connection and your electrical system can turn into a non operation system under transient loads noise etc. My "load dump" tests demonstrate that even 25,000mfd and no battery is not safe. There is abundant info on the proper care and feeding of batteries all over the web. Its great to be informed on how to care for your battery so it will last years and years. It is not so useful however to apply this info to the average acft owner. Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Lloyd" ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:08:10 AM PST US From: "Fergus Kyle" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Phillips head screws --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" Cheers, I came across this astounding sequence: "My experience with hex drive button head screws leads me to passing on another view. I have found them to be VERY unreliable and that they strip out with annoying regularity. When they do strip out, they are the Devils own to replace with a FAR MORE RELIABLE Phillips." The sole quality approaching Reliability is its ability either to strip its slots or to strip the fins of a properly-mated screwdriver. I must have a dozen rounded-off drivers lying around as awls. "10X32 cap screws are fine. Anything smaller, or button heads, NOT ON MY AIRPLANE! .......................... You will have less sweat on your brow. " Even the 3-fin screws discrete to Lockheed L-1011 have more surface area and greater holding strength. "Stick to the industry standard." The "industry standard" which Phillips acquired was as a result of Henry Ford refusing to use the far-finer Robertson ("square head") screws from Canada - designed before 1910. When Henry couldn't buy out the 'foreign' plant [Robertson was just as obstinate as Hank), he refused to use them and instead sought out the Phillips-head. When Army-Navy sought a standard, the US gubmint chose Phillips over Robertson. So much for science in 1930's. Of course WW II only hardened the calumny. Show me a Phillips screwdriver that will hold a screw inverted with one hand and I'll show you a tool system that is still inferior in tortional strength, ease of manufacture and cost............ Ferg ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:34:16 AM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Wire Marking --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com Good Afternoon All, I have suddenly been presented with a project that needs a lot of rewiring. It would be nice if I could duplicate the labeling that was done at the factory. Are wire labeling devices available at prices we amateurs can afford? Or, is there another way to accomplish the same result? I do believe there were a few questions on this subject some time back. Anybody have a ready source which I could look at for an education? I did try google, but my research capabilities leave an awful lot to be desired. Any suggestions appreciated. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Airpark LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:55:50 AM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Wire Marking --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" Do an ebay search with the key word 'Kroy'. I have the Kroy TM600 that I purchased on ebay for $80. It prints directly onto shrink tube. FMI, www.kroy.com Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Wire Marking --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com Good Afternoon All, I have suddenly been presented with a project that needs a lot of rewiring. It would be nice if I could duplicate the labeling that was done at the factory. Are wire labeling devices available at prices we amateurs can afford? Or, is there another way to accomplish the same result? I do believe there were a few questions on this subject some time back. Anybody have a ready source which I could look at for an education? I did try google, but my research capabilities leave an awful lot to be desired. Any suggestions appreciated. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Airpark LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 == == == == ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:57:54 AM PST US From: "Dave Sundberg" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z-11 Main Battery Bus --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Sundberg" I'm using Z-11 as the basis for wiring my RV-7A and have a question pertaining to the Main Battery Bus. The plan calls for a 16AWG of 6" max. from the batt side of the Batt Contactor to the Batt Bus, but for various reasons my Batt Bus is located about 30" from the Batt Contactor. I'm thinking of using either an 8AWG for the connection or a 14AWG with a 15AMP in-line fuse located 6" from the Batt Contactor. The only heavy load would come from a power plug where I may plug in a battery charger. My preference is to go with the 8AWG so the fuse would not be a concern. Am I missing something here? Is one option better than the other, or is neither good? Thanks for the input.................... Dave ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 01:53:21 PM PST US From: BTomm Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Phillips head screws --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BTomm Unfortunately, Robertson head screws are one of Canada's best kept secrets. Bevan RV7A On Thursday, June 17, 2004 11:09 AM, Fergus Kyle [SMTP:VE3LVO@rac.ca] wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" > > Cheers, > I came across this astounding sequence: > "My experience with hex drive button head screws leads me to passing on > another view. I have found them to be VERY unreliable and that they strip > out > with annoying regularity. When they do strip out, they are the Devils own > to > replace with a FAR MORE RELIABLE Phillips." > The sole quality approaching Reliability is its ability either > to strip its slots or to strip the fins of a properly-mated screwdriver. I > must have a dozen rounded-off drivers lying around as awls. > > "10X32 cap screws are fine. Anything smaller, or button heads, NOT ON MY > AIRPLANE! .......................... You will have less sweat on your brow. > " > Even the 3-fin screws discrete to Lockheed L-1011 have more > surface area and greater holding strength. > > "Stick to the industry standard." > The "industry standard" which Phillips acquired was as a result > of Henry Ford refusing to use the far-finer Robertson ("square head") screws > from Canada - designed before 1910. When Henry couldn't buy out the > 'foreign' plant [Robertson was just as obstinate as Hank), he refused to use > them and instead sought out the Phillips-head. When Army-Navy sought a > standard, the US gubmint chose Phillips over Robertson. So much for > science in 1930's. Of course WW II only hardened the calumny. > Show me a Phillips screwdriver that will hold a screw inverted > with one hand and I'll show you a tool system that is still inferior in > tortional strength, ease of manufacture and cost............ > Ferg > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 02:24:26 PM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wire Marking --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com Good Afternoon Bruce, Thanks for the information. That will probably work, but I was wondering if anyone made a device to print the numbers directly on the wire as is done by the airframe manufacturers. It would sure be nice to be able to delve into a bundle and find out just which wires are there. Having the number repeated every few inches is a tremendous boon. It would also be nice to not have to add the extra thickness of the shrink tubing. I thought I had seen a hand operated version of such a wire printer many years ago. Since it does not seem to be readily available, I guess it didn't work! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Airpark LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 03:10:28 PM PST US From: "James Foerster" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re:Adel Clamp Help --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James Foerster" Does anyone know of a source for "type B" sheet metal screws with Torx or Torx Plus drive? Or hex head? The tinnerman nuts that I ordered from Aircraft Spruce require the type B screw with its own pitch and its nice blunt but tapered point. Aircraft Spruce only carries Philips and slotted head (they say to use on "antiques"). Their catalog does list both truss head and round head screws: I'm not sure which one to use on Audel clamps, so I ordered both. Experimental aircraft are supposed to be educational, right? Hmm. I just remembered that I didn't check McMaster-Carr for this. It is so easy to order from Aircraft Spruce that I get lazy. Jim Foerster, J400 and wiring slooowly. ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 03:22:43 PM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Wire Marking --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" I've seen them. Big bucks! Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wire Marking --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com Good Afternoon Bruce, Thanks for the information. That will probably work, but I was wondering if anyone made a device to print the numbers directly on the wire as is done by the airframe manufacturers. It would sure be nice to be able to delve into a bundle and find out just which wires are there. Having the number repeated every few inches is a tremendous boon. It would also be nice to not have to add the extra thickness of the shrink tubing. I thought I had seen a hand operated version of such a wire printer many years ago. Since it does not seem to be readily available, I guess it didn't work! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Airpark LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 == == == == ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 03:54:23 PM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wire Marking --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com In a message dated 6/17/04 5:23:18 PM Central Daylight Time, Bruce@glasair.org writes: I've seen them. Big bucks! Bruce Hi Bruce, Yep, I guess I either ring out the circuits or use shrink wrap! Thanks to all for the information. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Airpark LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 04:28:17 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wire Marking --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bob-- Ring out the wires even if you mark them every 2 inches. Don't ask how I know. Jim kaser ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wire Marking > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com > > > In a message dated 6/17/04 5:23:18 PM Central Daylight Time, > Bruce@glasair.org writes: > > I've seen them. Big bucks! > > Bruce > > > Hi Bruce, > > Yep, I guess I either ring out the circuits or use shrink wrap! > > Thanks to all for the information. > > Happy Skies, > > Old Bob > AKA > Bob Siegfried > Ancient Aviator > Stearman N3977A > Brookeridge Airpark LL22 > Downers Grove, IL 60516 > 630 985-8502 > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 05:07:37 PM PST US From: "Jerzy Krasinski" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Phillips head screws --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jerzy Krasinski" What is Robertson head screw? Do you have a picture? Jerzy ----- Original Message ----- From: "BTomm" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Phillips head screws > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BTomm > > Unfortunately, Robertson head screws are one of Canada's best kept secrets. > > Bevan > RV7A > > On Thursday, June 17, 2004 11:09 AM, Fergus Kyle [SMTP:VE3LVO@rac.ca] wrote: > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" > > > > Cheers, > > I came across this astounding sequence: > > "My experience with hex drive button head screws leads me to passing on > > another view. I have found them to be VERY unreliable and that they strip > > out > > with annoying regularity. When they do strip out, they are the Devils own > > to > > replace with a FAR MORE RELIABLE Phillips." > > The sole quality approaching Reliability is its ability either > > to strip its slots or to strip the fins of a properly-mated screwdriver. I > > must have a dozen rounded-off drivers lying around as awls. > > > > "10X32 cap screws are fine. Anything smaller, or button heads, NOT ON MY > > AIRPLANE! .......................... You will have less sweat on your brow. > > " > > Even the 3-fin screws discrete to Lockheed L-1011 have more > > surface area and greater holding strength. > > > > "Stick to the industry standard." > > The "industry standard" which Phillips acquired was as a result > > of Henry Ford refusing to use the far-finer Robertson ("square head") screws > > from Canada - designed before 1910. When Henry couldn't buy out the > > 'foreign' plant [Robertson was just as obstinate as Hank), he refused to use > > them and instead sought out the Phillips-head. When Army-Navy sought a > > standard, the US gubmint chose Phillips over Robertson. So much for > > science in 1930's. Of course WW II only hardened the calumny. > > Show me a Phillips screwdriver that will hold a screw inverted > > with one hand and I'll show you a tool system that is still inferior in > > tortional strength, ease of manufacture and cost............ > > Ferg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 06:30:28 PM PST US From: "cgalley" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Phillips head screws --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "cgalley" Square drive hole. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerzy Krasinski" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Phillips head screws > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jerzy Krasinski" > > What is Robertson head screw? Do you have a picture? > > Jerzy > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "BTomm" > To: > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Phillips head screws > > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BTomm > > > > Unfortunately, Robertson head screws are one of Canada's best kept > secrets. > > > > Bevan > > RV7A > > > > On Thursday, June 17, 2004 11:09 AM, Fergus Kyle [SMTP:VE3LVO@rac.ca] > wrote: > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" > > > > > > Cheers, > > > I came across this astounding sequence: > > > "My experience with hex drive button head screws leads me to passing on > > > another view. I have found them to be VERY unreliable and that they > strip > > > out > > > with annoying regularity. When they do strip out, they are the Devils > own > > > to > > > replace with a FAR MORE RELIABLE Phillips." > > > The sole quality approaching Reliability is its ability > either > > > to strip its slots or to strip the fins of a properly-mated screwdriver. > I > > > must have a dozen rounded-off drivers lying around as awls. > > > > > > "10X32 cap screws are fine. Anything smaller, or button heads, NOT ON > MY > > > AIRPLANE! .......................... You will have less sweat on your > brow. > > > " > > > Even the 3-fin screws discrete to Lockheed L-1011 have more > > > surface area and greater holding strength. > > > > > > "Stick to the industry standard." > > > The "industry standard" which Phillips acquired was as a > result > > > of Henry Ford refusing to use the far-finer Robertson ("square head") > screws > > > from Canada - designed before 1910. When Henry couldn't buy out the > > > 'foreign' plant [Robertson was just as obstinate as Hank), he refused to > use > > > them and instead sought out the Phillips-head. When Army-Navy sought a > > > standard, the US gubmint chose Phillips over Robertson. So much for > > > science in 1930's. Of course WW II only hardened the calumny. > > > Show me a Phillips screwdriver that will hold a screw > inverted > > > with one hand and I'll show you a tool system that is still inferior in > > > tortional strength, ease of manufacture and cost............ > > > Ferg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 07:00:39 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Off to California . . . --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Dee and I are packing for the Long Beach weekend seminar. Be back on-line Monday. It's not too late to join us! Just walk in Saturday morning and we'll find a place for you. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------- ( Experience and common sense cannot be ) ( replaced with policy and procedures. ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ----------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 07:16:54 PM PST US From: "Jim Jewell" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Phillips head screws --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" To add just a bit more info Robertson head screws have a square hole that is progressively tapered toward the bottom of the hole. In Canada they are commonly found holding manufactured goods such as washers and driers etc.together. They are also extensively used in the building trades. In use they are less likely to strip out the head. If put on the screw driver to reach into tight quarters they will stay put some what better. They come in a full range of screw fastener types and sizes including drywall wood and machine screw applications. I can send you a picture as this email is much less than a thousand words. {[g-)! Jim in Kelowna the smoke devils stayed in the wires! Yeah !! ----- Original Message ----- From: "cgalley" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Phillips head screws > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "cgalley" > > Square drive hole. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jerzy Krasinski" > To: > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Phillips head screws > > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jerzy Krasinski" > > > > > What is Robertson head screw? Do you have a picture? > > > > Jerzy > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "BTomm" > > To: > > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Phillips head screws > > > > > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BTomm > > > > > > Unfortunately, Robertson head screws are one of Canada's best kept > > secrets. > > > > > > Bevan > > > RV7A > > > > > > On Thursday, June 17, 2004 11:09 AM, Fergus Kyle [SMTP:VE3LVO@rac.ca] > > wrote: > > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > I came across this astounding sequence: > > > > "My experience with hex drive button head screws leads me to passing > on > > > > another view. I have found them to be VERY unreliable and that they > > strip > > > > out > > > > with annoying regularity. When they do strip out, they are the Devils > > own > > > > to > > > > replace with a FAR MORE RELIABLE Phillips." > > > > The sole quality approaching Reliability is its ability > > either > > > > to strip its slots or to strip the fins of a properly-mated > screwdriver. > > I > > > > must have a dozen rounded-off drivers lying around as awls. > > > > > > > > "10X32 cap screws are fine. Anything smaller, or button heads, NOT > ON > > MY > > > > AIRPLANE! .......................... You will have less sweat on your > > brow. > > > > " > > > > Even the 3-fin screws discrete to Lockheed L-1011 have more > > > > surface area and greater holding strength. > > > > > > > > "Stick to the industry standard." > > > > The "industry standard" which Phillips acquired was as a > > result > > > > of Henry Ford refusing to use the far-finer Robertson ("square head") > > screws > > > > from Canada - designed before 1910. When Henry couldn't buy out the > > > > 'foreign' plant [Robertson was just as obstinate as Hank), he refused > to > > use > > > > them and instead sought out the Phillips-head. When Army-Navy sought a > > > > standard, the US gubmint chose Phillips over Robertson. So much for > > > > science in 1930's. Of course WW II only hardened the calumny. > > > > Show me a Phillips screwdriver that will hold a screw > > inverted > > > > with one hand and I'll show you a tool system that is still inferior > in > > > > tortional strength, ease of manufacture and cost............ > > > > Ferg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 07:21:32 PM PST US From: Paul Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Phillips head screws --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Paul At 8:29 PM -0500 6/17/04, cgalley wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "cgalley" > >Square drive hole. ==== Like the ones I buy at Home Depot for wood/decks/drywall -- ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 08:05:06 PM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Adel Clamp Help --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <> 6/17/2004 Hello LRE, There is some truth to what you say, but please let me add a few words. Cap screws come in the normal cylinder head shape (frequently with knurled exterior) and the less common button head shape. For a given size cap screw the cylinder head screw will have a larger size hex socket than the button head screw. This means the smaller hex drive socket in the button head screw cannot handle as much torque as the cylinder head screw. So unless the situation demands a button head shaped screw one should favor the cylinder head shaped screw. Also socket stripping tends to be a problem in only the smaller sized screws, #4 and #6. (I generally avoid #4 screws where ever possible). Realize also that these screws are not intended for structural use so high torques are not really expected or appropriate. It is also important that one use good quality and not worn out hex inserts. Once a hex insert has stripped out a screw head the condition of the insert itself should be highly suspect and a quick toss to the trash can may save further aggravation. I favor inserts over tools with built on handles because of the natural reluctance to throw away a whole good tool.** Over the past 54 years as a US Navy mechanic, A&P mechanic, Aeronautical Engineer, pilot and amateur builder I have installed, removed, and, when needed drilled and extracted, thousands of Phillips head screws. In my current homebuilt I doubt if there are more than a dozen Phillips head screws -- and only when they cannot be avoided. In my engine compartment alone I have a hundred or more hex socket head cap screws, both cylinder and button heads, fastening in engine baffles and baffle seals and holding Adel clamps. These screws were threaded into metal stop nuts. Stripping out screw sockets during installation was never a big issue. OC **PS: My father-in-law bought cheap tools and he never threw a tool away. When he set out to do a home handy man act involving screws the first thing he did was ruin the screw slot with a worn out screwdriver. After he passed away I threw away almost every tool that he had owned. ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 09:14:21 PM PST US From: "Ron Koyich" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Wire Marking --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ron Koyich" >> Since it does not seem to be readily available, I guess it didn't work!<< Hey, Bob - they worked well - I used to have on in my avionics shop. Turn the crank, the wire was pulled through the machine and the hot stamp came down onto the film with the heat sensitive ink which was transferred to the wire. For now I can't remember the name of the company that made them. Ron ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 09:43:16 PM PST US From: "James Redmon" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Off to California . . . --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James Redmon" Geez...you all should stay for Rutan's flight into space! 6:30am Monday morning - Mojave airport! www.scaled.com -James ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Off to California . . . > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > Dee and I are packing for the Long Beach weekend seminar. Be > back on-line Monday. It's not too late to join us! Just walk > in Saturday morning and we'll find a place for you. > > > Bob . . . > > ----------------------------------------- > ( Experience and common sense cannot be ) > ( replaced with policy and procedures. ) > ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) > ----------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 09:45:23 PM PST US From: "Jim Anglin" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Garmin/Navaid interface --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Anglin" I am having trouble figuring out which pin goes to which pin to navigate with input from my Garmin GNC 300XL to my Navaid autopilot. If anyone out there has some positive input I will listen. I have the Smart Coupler in my autopilot if that helps. Jim Anglin HR II