Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:59 AM - Re: Wire Marking (Chad Robinson)
2. 06:15 AM - Re: Wire Marking (BobsV35B@aol.com)
3. 06:16 AM - Re: Wire Marking (BobsV35B@aol.com)
4. 06:26 AM - Re: Wire Marking (Bruce Gray)
5. 07:02 AM - Re: Battery types (Was: 2 batteries, 1 alternator) (Brian Lloyd)
6. 07:06 AM - Re: Wire Marking (Chad Robinson)
7. 07:52 AM - Re: Off to California . . . (Walter Tondu)
8. 09:28 AM - Still have Permanent Magnet Alternator Question (Dick Ripper)
9. 09:58 AM - Re: Battery types (Was: 2 batteries, 1 alternator) (John Schroeder)
10. 10:01 AM - Re: Still have Permanent Magnet Alternator Question (Matt Prather)
11. 10:11 AM - Re: Still have Permanent Magnet Alternator Question (Denis Walsh)
12. 10:48 AM - Re: Still have Permanent Magnet Alternator Question (Brian Lloyd)
13. 11:03 AM - Re: Battery types (Was: 2 batteries, 1 alternator) (Brian Lloyd)
14. 11:21 AM - Re: Still have Permanent Magnet Alternator Question (Jon Finley)
15. 12:05 PM - Robertson screws etc (Fergus Kyle)
16. 02:29 PM - Fw: Still have Permanent Magnet Alternator Question (Dick Ripper)
17. 03:14 PM - Re: Wire Marking (Ron Koyich)
18. 03:25 PM - Re: Wire Marking (BobsV35B@aol.com)
19. 04:21 PM - Re: Battery types (Was: 2 batteries, 1 alternator) (Ken)
20. 08:04 PM - Torx Drive Screws ()
21. 08:17 PM - Re: Wire Marking (Chad Robinson)
22. 08:18 PM - Re: Battery types (Was: 2 batteries, 1 alternator) (Paul Messinger)
23. 08:49 PM - Re: Battery types (Was: 2 batteries, 1 alternator) (Paul Messinger)
24. 09:12 PM - Re: Torx Drive Screws (Gregory Young)
25. 10:08 PM - Re Odyssey Batteries (Rex & Jan Shaw)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Wire Marking |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chad Robinson <crj@lucubration.com>
jimk36@comcast.net wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <jimk36@comcast.net>
>
> Bob--
>
> Ring out the wires even if you mark them every 2 inches. Don't ask how I
> know.
What does ring out the wires mean? It sounds suspiciously like something that
works well for me.
Basically, I use colored Sharpie markers and one black one to make four bands
every now and then on my wires, like "black red green blue". The black starts
the sequence so I can't read it the wrong direction. I keep a chart mapping
the color codes out and it makes it really easy to find the right wire. There
are two added benefits.
1. If you lose your chart it's no big deal because you can simply walk around
looking at wire terminations and writing down their color codes.
2. The Sharpie is basically indelible EXCEPT to alcohol, which makes it easy
to change an incorrect marking. It's hard to do that with shrink wrap once the
wire is installed because the shrink wrap must be slid over the entire wire to
its position. If the incorrect marking is in the middle... forget it. I don't
exactly mark my wires incorrectly all the time, but once in a while it can
happen, and more important this addresses repurposing a wire from an unused
device to another conneciton.
It only takes a few seconds to make each marking - faster than the shrink-wrap
methods, and your only cost is a few bucks for the markers.
Be aware that not all colors show up well or contrast with one another. I find
black, red, blue, green, purple, lime, and teal are all recognizable. If you
can't find as many colors you can buy them online, or just add a stripe or two
to your code to get more "digits".
It's almost like having a completely color-coded wiring harness, like in a car.
Regards,
Chad
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Wire Marking |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
In a message dated 6/18/04 7:59:58 AM Central Daylight Time,
crj@lucubration.com writes:
What does ring out the wires mean? It sounds suspiciously like something
that
works well for me.
Good Morning Chad,
Not quite the same type of ring!
Your method sounds great. However, I was hoping to mark the wires so that
they would still have the same numbers on them that were used by the factory.
That way, the original aircraft wiring manual information would still be
valid.
"Ringing Out The Wires" refers to the procedure of hooking a multimeter, or
other continuity checking device, to one end of a wire and checking all the
far away ends to determine which wire is which.
It is my understanding that early electricians would run a batch of wires
through a home or other structure. In order to determine the continuity, they
would hook up a battery powered door bell between the wire and ground, then
check the far ends to ground. When they found the correct wire, the door bell
would ring. Thus the term, "ring out the wire."
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Airpark LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Wire Marking |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
Hi Ron,
I guess I need to continue my search. I sure would like to get those wires
continuously marked.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Airpark LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Do Not Archive
Message 4
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
"Ring out the wires" means taking a continuity meter (tone emitter in
the old telephone days) and testing each wire at their respective ends
until all wires were identified. Resulted in a lot of tones, hence the
term "Ring out the wires".
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chad
Robinson
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wire Marking
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chad Robinson
<crj@lucubration.com>
jimk36@comcast.net wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <jimk36@comcast.net>
>
> Bob--
>
> Ring out the wires even if you mark them every 2 inches. Don't ask how
I
> know.
What does ring out the wires mean? It sounds suspiciously like something
that
works well for me.
Basically, I use colored Sharpie markers and one black one to make four
bands
every now and then on my wires, like "black red green blue". The black
starts
the sequence so I can't read it the wrong direction. I keep a chart
mapping
the color codes out and it makes it really easy to find the right wire.
There
are two added benefits.
1. If you lose your chart it's no big deal because you can simply walk
around
looking at wire terminations and writing down their color codes.
2. The Sharpie is basically indelible EXCEPT to alcohol, which makes it
easy
to change an incorrect marking. It's hard to do that with shrink wrap
once the
wire is installed because the shrink wrap must be slid over the entire
wire to
its position. If the incorrect marking is in the middle... forget it. I
don't
exactly mark my wires incorrectly all the time, but once in a while it
can
happen, and more important this addresses repurposing a wire from an
unused
device to another conneciton.
It only takes a few seconds to make each marking - faster than the
shrink-wrap
methods, and your only cost is a few bucks for the markers.
Be aware that not all colors show up well or contrast with one another.
I find
black, red, blue, green, purple, lime, and teal are all recognizable. If
you
can't find as many colors you can buy them online, or just add a stripe
or two
to your code to get more "digits".
It's almost like having a completely color-coded wiring harness, like in
a car.
Regards,
Chad
==
==
==
==
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Battery types (Was: 2 batteries, 1 alternator) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
Paul Messinger wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Paul Messinger" <paulm@olypen.com>
>
> I did not intend to offend however the entire discussion seems very off the
> track for an aircraft.
No, it is not. I have suffered numerous failures of AGM batteries in standard
aircraft. If I had needed to rely on my battery to power my avionics under instrument
conditions, I would have been screwed. My research into the charging
of these batteries has led me to understand the nature of the failure and how
it is caused by currently accepted best practices in aircraft electrical system
design.
The *ONLY* person I have ever seen who works on aircraft electrical systems who
even had a clue about this is Bob Nuckolls. He added temperature compensation
to his linear alternator controller. That is a huge win.
But even that is not enough. You need to step the charging voltage down to the
proper float voltage after the battery is fully charged.
> First; If I ever have a significant depth of discharge, its because of a
> Failure of the electrical system. I would not fly again until I have
> determined the reason for the failure and corrected it including redesign or
> use of different parts.
Wrong. These problems affect battery life even when you are not discharging the
battery.
> This includes the need for prolonged attempts to start the engine. If it
> takes more than a very few blades or 10 seconds there is a problem that
> needs fixing.
I guess you have never started a fuel-injected engine. I know my fuel injected
engines like the back of my hand but sometimes it takes even me more than a few
blades to get them to start when they are hot.
> Thus depth of discharge cycles is a non issue.
For the most part, yes. But understanding the characteristics of the different
batteries is still a good thing, don't you think?
> The average pilot fly's under 100 hours per year and even one flight per day
> is way less than even the ability of the battery recommended by this group
> IE the Panasonic or equivalent widely available 12V 18 AH battery where its
> common usage is standby in UPS etc. (Many brands around that are equivalent)
> and they have been used for at least 10 years in experimental acft with
> multi year life using the "Horrible" alternators hi V and overcharging
> ability.
So doing things wrong even tho' they seem to work for the most part is OK, eh?
Why are we on this list then? Heck, by that logic we should stick with the tried-'n-true
electrical system designs foised upon us by the spam-can manufacturers
for 50 years. They seem to work pretty well, don't they? They FAA thinks
they are OK. :-)
> In the purest case I totally agree with what you are saying about the proper
> way to care for a battery however in the real world what you suggest is lots
> of weight, cost and complexity to implement and I can see no reason to even
> consider it for an ACFT.
Huh? The three-stage alternator controller I use on my boat weighs in at about
a pound. It wires in like a standard VR and works with a standard externally-regulated
alternator. OK, it has a thermistor that bolts to the battery positive
terminal to measure temperature but that doesn't seem like a lot of complexity
to me. It even has the ability to limit max current from the alternator
so you can't exceed its ratings. (I have mine dialed for 75% since my alternators
aren't rated for 100% duty cycle.) I am very sensitive to weight in an aircraft
as I like to play ACM and want every advantage I can get.
> On the other hand in a boat or RV; I would insist
> on that methods. But we are comparing the cost per year from under $50 on an
> aircraft using Bob's recommendation to many hundreds of $$ for Boat or RV.
Why are you spending all this time to run down my posting? Did I lie or something?
Gee whiz, I was just trying to make some information available that has
turned out to be very useful to me and it seems like I have stepped on your toes.
> We are not running off the battery in an aircraft, we are running off the
> alternator and USING the battery as a huge filter cap. Isolate the battery
> in any way from this solid essentially zero ohm connection and your
> electrical system can turn into a non operation system under transient loads
> noise etc. My "load dump" tests demonstrate that even 25,000mfd and no
> battery is not safe.
And what does that have to do with what I posted? I am not sure you even read
my post. I was talking about two things:
1. what are the differences between AGMs and gel-cells;
2. how do you charge them so that they live as long as possible.
Where in any of this do you get a suggestion that there is anything but a direct
connection from the alternator to the battery?
> There is abundant info on the proper care and feeding of batteries all over
> the web. Its great to be informed on how to care for your battery so it will
> last years and years.
>
> It is not so useful however to apply this info to the average acft owner.
Thank you Paul. I will remember this and refrain from posting anything on batteries
or charging systems in the future.
To everyone else on the list, you need to listen to Paul. He knows what is best
for you.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
http://www.lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 (voice) +1.360.838.9669 (fax)
There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest.
A good citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Wire Marking |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chad Robinson <crj@lucubration.com>
BobsV35B@aol.com wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
>
>
> In a message dated 6/18/04 7:59:58 AM Central Daylight Time,
> crj@lucubration.com writes:
>
> What does ring out the wires mean? It sounds suspiciously like something
> that
> works well for me.
>
>
> Good Morning Chad,
>
> Not quite the same type of ring!
>
> Your method sounds great. However, I was hoping to mark the wires so that
> they would still have the same numbers on them that were used by the factory.
> That way, the original aircraft wiring manual information would still be
> valid.
>
> "Ringing Out The Wires" refers to the procedure of hooking a multimeter, or
> other continuity checking device, to one end of a wire and checking all the
> far away ends to determine which wire is which.
>
> It is my understanding that early electricians would run a batch of wires
> through a home or other structure. In order to determine the continuity, they
> would hook up a battery powered door bell between the wire and ground, then
> check the far ends to ground. When they found the correct wire, the door bell
> would ring. Thus the term, "ring out the wire."
Thanks for the description, Bob, guess I'm showing my age. Us new kids has
these things they call tone generators if'n ya want to get fancy. =)
Nothing beats a DMM. It'll be part of my on-board toolkit.
Regards,
Chad
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Off to California . . . |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Walter Tondu <walter@tondu.com>
On 06/17 9:00, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
> Dee and I are packing for the Long Beach weekend seminar. Be
> back on-line Monday. It's not too late to join us! Just walk
> in Saturday morning and we'll find a place for you.
I'll be attending. Any one else on this list scheduled to attend?
I've been postponing most of my wiring until after the seminar.
--
Walter Tondu
http://www.tondu.com/rv7
Message 8
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| Subject: | Still have Permanent Magnet Alternator Question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dick Ripper" <rwripper@prodigy.net>
I understand Bob is away but wonder if anyone can advise a non-computer guy how to access http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev10/z10.pdf
For some reason I can't get through to it. Thanks, Dick
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Battery types (Was: 2 batteries, 1 alternator) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Schroeder <jschroeder@perigee.net>
Brian -
I, for one, deeply appreciate your postings. Rarely do I read threads like
this because neither of the protagonists demonstrate enough logic and
knowledge to make it worth my while. Not so for this one. I've read all of
this one because I respect your record of solid postings and information
on this forum.
Thank you again for taking time to share with us.
John Schroeder
Do not archive
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Still have Permanent Magnet Alternator Question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" <mprather@spro.net>
When you say "I can't get through to it.", what precisely happens?
I assume that you tried clicking on the link. This is a link to a "pdf" file
which is an archive format for documents. You will need to have a
piece of software like "Adobe Acrobat Reader" or something similar.
As well, your browser (Internet Explorer, Netscape, Mozilla) will need
to know that "pdf" files should be viewed with "Adobe Acrobat Reader".
One thing that you might try doing is to "right-click" (place the mouse
over the link and use the righthand mouse button) and save-as on the
Desk Top. Then your computer might have an easier time figuring out
what to do with it.
do not archive
Matt-
N34RD
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dick Ripper"
> <rwripper@prodigy.net>
>
> I understand Bob is away but wonder if anyone can advise a non-computer
> guy how to access http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev10/z10.pdf
>
> For some reason I can't get through to it. Thanks, Dick
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Still have Permanent Magnet Alternator Question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Denis Walsh <denis.walsh@comcast.net>
Some times you have to clip some of the address? It is working for me
today.
Anyway I will send you a copy as atch to email.
Good luck
On Jun 18, 2004, at 10:27 AM, Dick Ripper wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dick Ripper"
> <rwripper@prodigy.net>
>
> I understand Bob is away but wonder if anyone can advise a
> non-computer guy how to access
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev10/z10.pdf
>
> For some reason I can't get through to it. Thanks, Dick
>
>
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> >
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Still have Permanent Magnet Alternator Question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
Dick Ripper wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dick Ripper" <rwripper@prodigy.net>
>
> I understand Bob is away but wonder if anyone can advise a non-computer guy how to access http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev10/z10.pdf
>
> For some reason I can't get through to it. Thanks, Dick
The file is there and I was able to view it. You need to install Adobe Acrobat Viewer to look at the file. If you haven't already done so, go to http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html and download the version appropriate to the type of computer you are using.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
http://www.lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 (voice) +1.360.838.9669 (fax)
There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest.
A good citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises.
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Battery types (Was: 2 batteries, 1 alternator) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
John Schroeder wrote:
> I, for one, deeply appreciate your postings. Rarely do I read threads like
> this because neither of the protagonists demonstrate enough logic and
> knowledge to make it worth my while. Not so for this one. I've read all of
> this one because I respect your record of solid postings and information
> on this forum.
Thank you John. I appreciate the message. I was trying to present useful information
and I like to hear that someone else feels that I have hit the mark.
So much of what we get in email is "noise" that I don't want to contribute to
the problem.
> Thank you again for taking time to share with us.
You are welcome. Thanks again for the positive feedback.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
http://www.lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 (voice) +1.360.838.9669 (fax)
There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest.
A good citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises.
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Still have Permanent Magnet Alternator Question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jon Finley" <Jon@finleyweb.net>
It opens ok for me Dick. Do you have Adobe Reader on your machine? If not, you'll
have to go to Adobe.com, download the free reader, and install it.
Otherwise, it might be the size. It is not small. Do you have a high-speed connection
or dial-up. If dial-up, it may take awhile.
Jon
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "Dick Ripper" <rwripper@Prodigy.net>
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dick Ripper" <rwripper@prodigy.net>
>
>I understand Bob is away but wonder if anyone can advise a non-computer guy how to access http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev10/z10.pdf
>
>For some reason I can't get through to it. Thanks, Dick
Message 15
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| Subject: | Robertson screws etc |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
Cheers,
......just another small twist. Robertson refused to sell out to
Henry Ford and just as stubbornly fought through the loss of business,
producing a range of products which slowly gained recognition (except upon
the ignorant).
Eventually time caught up with him and he sold the firm and the
factory (about 10 miles from here) to a company in Toronto - which was
reluctant to spar with big money for acceptance as an AN part. So they don't
make the particular steels that aircraft specs demand and concentrate on
furniture and big appliances - with great success. Nevertheless they are
often tested and used for many other purposes.
The corker?..........it's an American company.
Ferg
Europa A064
Message 16
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| Subject: | Fw: Still have Permanent Magnet Alternator Question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dick Ripper" <rwripper@prodigy.net>
Thanks, Got it. Dick
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Dick Ripper
Subject: Still have Permanent Magnet Alternator Question
I understand Bob is away but wonder if anyone can advise a non-computer guy how to access http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev10/z10.pdf
For some reason I can't get through to it. Thanks, Dick
Message 17
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ron Koyich" <Ron@Koyich.com>
>>Nothing beats a DMM. It'll be part of my on-board toolkit.<<
Well, when peaking or nulling a circuit, an analog meter beats a DMM. And
a Sonalert mounted on a battery is much cheaper than a DMM for 'ringing
out' wires.<G>
Don't get me wrong - wouldn't give up any of my new tech gadgetry, but
just like the Garmin 430 in the plane, the new stuff is not necessarily
always more effective than the old.
Looking but not feeling older at times - Ron
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Wire Marking |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
In a message dated 6/18/04 5:15:30 PM Central Daylight Time, Ron@Koyich.com
writes:
Well, when peaking or nulling a circuit, an analog meter beats a DMM. And
a Sonalert mounted on a battery is much cheaper than a DMM for 'ringing
out' wires.<G>
On top of that, nothing looks nicer sitting on the bench than a Simpson 260.
Do Not Archive
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Airpark LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Battery types (Was: 2 batteries, 1 alternator) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
Brian
I'm also paying attention to your posts as I have chosen small Dekka
ETX9 batteries and it seems clear that small AGM batteries will not
tolerate as much overcharging abuse as large flooded batteries. I didn't
know that 3 state VR's existed before your post although I did know that
was the preferred charging method. Unfortunately it seems they are more
expensive than my alternators and batteries combined so I will monitor
my batteries carefully and perhaps try a few simple things once I get
flying. I suspect that proper care and feeding of these critters will
become a bigger concern as they become more common and we start taking
advantage of smaller lighter batteries. I was aware of the Dekka white
paper but your reports of battery failures are more telling in terms of
real world results. Perhaps you'd care to elaborate on the failures such
as time to failure and average trip times during service... This thread
reminds me of the car that we put a dashboard knob on to adjust the
voltage and stop the rapid electrolyte loss on long summer trips. That
was with a mechanical regulator with no temperature compensation at all.
Modern internal VR's have at least some air temperature compensation and
I suspect that there is some benefit to mounting the battery on the cool
side of the firewall so it can tolerate a higher than ideal voltage in
cruise. Worst case is perhaps an external mechanical VR and the battery
on the hot side of the firewall.
I don't have a clue whether the John Deere PM alternator regulator on my
second battery has any temperature compensation in it yet.
My powerplant is a multi port EFI Subaru. Occasionally I'm
misinterpreted here as my perspective is not necessarily from a Lycoming
background.
Ken
Brian Lloyd wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
>
>Paul Messinger wrote:
>
>
>
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Paul Messinger" <paulm@olypen.com>
>>
>>I did not intend to offend however the entire discussion seems very off the
>>track for an aircraft.
>>
>>
>
>No, it is not. I have suffered numerous failures of AGM batteries in standard
aircraft. If I had needed to rely on my battery to power my avionics under instrument
conditions, I would have been screwed. My research into the charging
of these batteries has led me to understand the nature of the failure and how
it is caused by currently accepted best practices in aircraft electrical system
design.
>
>The *ONLY* person I have ever seen who works on aircraft electrical systems who
even had a clue about this is Bob Nuckolls. He added temperature compensation
to his linear alternator controller. That is a huge win.
>
>But even that is not enough. You need to step the charging voltage down to the
proper float voltage after the battery is fully charged
>
snip
Message 20
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| Subject: | Torx Drive Screws |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <bakerocb@cox.net>
<<AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.
com>
> I have purchased a bunch of torx screws from microfasteners
> and use them everywhere. Unfortunately they only
> have a pretty limited range of lengths.
Go with McMaster Carr -- http://www.mcmaster.com Enter "machine screws" or
"socket head cap screws" in to the search box, and you can use their
"wizard" to narrow down what you want. Torx screws from McMaster come
in lengths from 1/8" to 3".)_( Dan RV-7 N714D)
http://www.rvproject.com>>
6/18/2004
Hello Dan, Not so fast. I dont want to alienate the electrical types by needlessly
perpetuating this screw drive thread in their list, but what you recommend
is not workable in all instances. Here is why:
If one is using cap screws with normal cylinder shaped heads or button shaped heads,
and putting them into an amateur built experimental airplane, the source
doesnt really matter provided the builder is satisfied with the type of drive
(hex socket, Torx, Torx Plus, or other), quality, material, strength, and dimensions
of the screws.
But if one is using flat head countersunk cap screws the source matters greatly.
Here is why. The flat head countersunk screws that you get from McMaster Carr
or your local hardware store will have an 82 degree counter sink angle. The
flat head countersunk aviation screws, such as the MS24694 screws, that you purchase
from Aircraft Spruce or Wicks or other aviation sources will have a 100
degree countersink angle. This is the standard for aircraft hardware.
What is the big deal you ask? Well if you start putting some 82 degree counter
sink screws into holes that have been counter sunk to 100 degrees or vice versa
you will have a significant contact mismatch (read weakness) between the screw
head and the material that was countersunk. Also if you start putting 100 degree
countersunk Tinnerman aviation washers under 82 degree counter sunk screw
heads you will have a significant mismatch.
That is why the flat head, 100 degree counter sink, stainless steel, Torx drive
screws from Microfasteners are such a huge break through. I spent years (and
a fair amount of money) trying to find some non Phillips drive, flat head, 100
degree countersunk screws, preferably in stainless steel. Finally John Fleisher
of Microfasteners agreed to have some made we are greatly in his debt.
Some screw drive comments: There are many different screw drives available. Some
have been developed for the aerospace industry and can be found on modern spacecraft
and aircraft. The designers were looking for something better than the
Phillips drive so was I. But I wasnt in a position to be choosey or buy in
bulk like Boeing or Lockheed. I tend to agree with Fergus Kyle that the Robertson
square drive would have been ideal (there are many imitators, particularly
in the furniture business), but that was pretty much a non starter. Robertson
was non cooperative (they still think there is something special / proprietary
about their square drive shape) and the image of the square drive was definitely
dorky and non aerospace in nature.
So with my encouragement John Fleisher went for the 6 lobe drive (the word Torx
is still copyrighted even though the patent has expired and any one can build
6 lobe drive screws) and we are the great beneficiaries.
OC
PS: It would be possible / permissible to build an amateur built experimental aircraft
using flat head, 82 degree hardware store countersunk screw and matching
82 degree countersunk holes throughout, but some DAR or FAA inspector may take
exception to that practice and I dont know of any source for 82 degree Tinnerman
type washers. I would not recommend going that route.
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Wire Marking |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chad Robinson <crj@lucubration.com>
BobsV35B@aol.com wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
>
>
> In a message dated 6/18/04 5:15:30 PM Central Daylight Time, Ron@Koyich.com
> writes:
>
> Well, when peaking or nulling a circuit, an analog meter beats a DMM. And
> a Sonalert mounted on a battery is much cheaper than a DMM for 'ringing
> out' wires.<G>
>
>
> On top of that, nothing looks nicer sitting on the bench than a Simpson 260.
A Simpson what? Isn't that a TV show? =)
Yeah, yeah, analog meters have their place, I'm not THAT old. But if you
already own a DMM the "cheaper" argument for wire tracing doesn't work so well.
-Chad
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Battery types (Was: 2 batteries, 1 alternator) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Paul Messinger" <paulm@olypen.com>
Sorry again; but I still do not understand your insistence on perusing the
conversation with lack of specifics. For example exactly how does one know
how much current is going into any battery on the aircraft with only Bob's
load meter.
Alternator current is not battery current. I agree that battery temp is
important if you want to avoid overcharging the battery. But how much and
for how long is the issue I am trying to get to. How does the smart charger
/ regulator know how much current is going where given the assumed design of
only a load meter and no battery current sensor per Bob's designs of late.
I can go on and on but how about providing a specific application including
a schematic of how this smart charger figures out what the battery is
receiving and the alternator is outputting to the bus when they must be tied
together. IE the battery and the alternator "B" lead and the acft bus are
all one solid junction. Also lets get specific about the parts you are
suggesting with usable links to the product specifications.
I simply do not see how the smart charger/regulator or what ever can tell
about the battery state of charge without looking at the battery in a stand
alone mode or at least measuring the input current to the battery. You say
only the battery temp is needed.
Clearly I am missing something as the systems I have looked at that include
this multi stage charging setup assume the battery is independent and ant
loads go back thru the charge controller.
More embedded comments follow.
> No, it is not. I have suffered numerous failures of AGM batteries in
standard aircraft. If I had needed to rely on my battery to power my
avionics under instrument conditions, I would have been screwed. My
research into the charging of these batteries has led me to understand the
nature of the failure and how it is caused by currently accepted best
practices in aircraft electrical system design.
Other than Concord (that I would not near my aircraft) I have not heard of
significant battery problems.
> > First; If I ever have a significant depth of discharge, its because of a
> > Failure of the electrical system. I would not fly again until I have
> > determined the reason for the failure and corrected it including
redesign or
> > use of different parts.
>
> Wrong. These problems affect battery life even when you are not
discharging the battery.
Never said they did not Just that the average persons flying time per year
is far short of what I have seen as damaging. This does assume the Alt reg
is set to a reasonable voltage, and many are set to high.
>
> > This includes the need for prolonged attempts to start the engine. If it
> > takes more than a very few blades or 10 seconds there is a problem that
> > needs fixing.
>
> I guess you have never started a fuel-injected engine. I know my fuel
injected engines like the back of my hand but sometimes it takes even me
more than a few blades to get them to start when they are hot.
I have lots of time in injected aircraft including a couple of Beech 35's
(that I have owned) and its rare that hot starts need more then 5 seconds
using the proper hot starting procedure. However that was a cont and many
lycs have a different fuel system and can be a little harder to start but
that's a design shortcoming on the Lyc.
Even there 10 seconds is longer than needed.
> > Thus depth of discharge cycles is a non issue.
>
> For the most part, yes. But understanding the characteristics of the
different batteries is still a good thing, don't you think?
Yes; but that is taken care of by a simple link note pages of replication on
this list. If I am given a link and I am interested then that is enough. for
me.
> Why are you spending all this time to run down my posting? Did I lie or
something? Gee whiz, I was just trying to make some information available
that has turned out to be very useful to me and it seems like I have stepped
on your toes.
I am sorry you do not desire to accept or listen to another point of Vu but
that is your choice.
Perhaps I missed the you post or missed reading something but I do not
recall any specific info on exactly what you are suggesting.
One needs to get specific on exactly the parts recommended (including
technical data links etc) and how they are wired
And all the while this 3 stage charge is going on the acft bus needs to be
above around 13.5 and below around 14.5 or either the lo or hi voltage
alarms are likely to go off if these are exceeded. Not to mention that the
equipment performs best around 13.8v Not my numbers but generally accepted
I do not claim to be an expert but do challenge what seems to be unrelated
info or incomplete. I am willing to learn but I and I assume others would
like you to get very specific with exactly what you propose including all
the parts (from alternators to the battery and all the sensors and how they
are connected and links so we can look at the technical info ourselves.
Better is not needed as Bob has often suggested to go with the Panasonic
type battery and just replace it every year.
Paul
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Battery types (Was: 2 batteries, 1 alternator) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Paul Messinger" <paulm@olypen.com>
BTW
The Panasonic battery (highly recommended by Bob) is an AGM type battery as
is the Odyssey I have suggested. Most batteries of similar case and ratings
are AGM as Bob has often stated, not gell, as the retail stores often say.
These Panasonic Type batterys are in widespread use and seem to rarely fail
even after years of service. The Optoma is widely being used also.
I have both types here and there is a great difference in long term
performance but the Panasonic still has a lot more cranking amps than needed
as it will start my big V8 in my truck.
Paul
Message 24
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| Subject: | Torx Drive Screws |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gregory Young" <gyoung@cs-sol.com>
Actually, Aircraft Spruce has the 82 deg Tinnerman washers. I just bought
some 100 deg ones and was surprised to see the 82 deg listed. Someone must
want them.
Greg Young
>
> PS: It would be possible / permissible to build an amateur
> built experimental aircraft using flat head, 82 degree
> hardware store countersunk screw and matching 82 degree
> countersunk holes throughout, but some DAR or FAA inspector
> may take exception to that practice and I dont know of any
> source for 82 degree Tinnerman type washers. I would not
> recommend going that route.
>
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re Odyssey Batteries |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rex & Jan Shaw" <rexjan@bigpond.com>
Well there certainly is a lot being said on list re Odyssey batteries and
the like. Lots of great information on list and from following links. I
think we are all learning a lot here. However believe it or not I am seeking
more info that I can't find and hope someone can help please. I am convinced
that replacing my flooded wet cell with an Odyssey is the way to go and have
one on order. However it's more expensive so I don't want to wreck it. I see
a lot of info on charging that can be followed OK but I am left wondering as
to the suitability of the charging system in my plane. It is a Kitfox with a
Rotax 582. This has the better 264-870 regulator. Is this suitable for the
Odyssey or should I be looking to change it ?
My rotax manual says this regulator puts out 13.5 to 14.5 volts but does
not elaborate further. I am wondering if that means once there is enough
revs to charge that it puts out 14.5 volts until the battery is fairly well
charged then it drops back to 13.5 volts. Does any one know please ?
I have studied all these discharge rates for Odyssey batteries but am left
wondering just what amps my starter draws. Would anyone have an idea please
?
Thanks Rex.
rexjan@bigpond.com
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