Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:35 AM - Re: Wire Marking (Ron Koyich)
2. 06:41 AM - Re: Wire Marking (BobsV35B@aol.com)
3. 07:05 AM - Ringing out wires (Fergus Kyle)
4. 07:19 AM - Re: Wire Marking (Chiocchio, Stanley)
5. 07:24 AM - Re: Wire Marking (BobsV35B@aol.com)
6. 07:27 AM - Brian and batteries (Fergus Kyle)
7. 07:28 AM - Re: Wire Marking (Chiocchio, Stanley)
8. 08:23 AM - Re: Battery types (Was: 2 batteries, 1 alternator) (Brian Lloyd)
9. 09:41 AM - Re: Phillips head screws (Jim Oke)
10. 09:44 AM - Re: Battery types (Was: 2 batteries, 1 alternator) (Brian Lloyd)
11. 10:27 AM - "do-not-arch-ive" (Brian Lloyd)
12. 10:37 AM - Re: Brian and batteries (Brian Lloyd)
13. 11:07 AM - Re: Re Odyssey Batteries (Brian Lloyd)
14. 11:44 AM - battery charging data (Brian Lloyd)
15. 01:24 PM - Re: Battery types (Was: 2 batteries, 1 alternator) (Brian Lloyd)
16. 03:30 PM - Tinnerman Washers ()
Message 1
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ron Koyich" <Ron@Koyich.com>
>>On top of that, nothing looks nicer sitting on the bench than a
Simpson 260.<<
Unless it's an AVO Mk VIII, Bob <g> And the Simpson must have a yellow
meter scale.
Do not archive
(Is this non archiving note read by a computer or a person? Is it
required?)
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Wire Marking |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
In a message dated 6/19/04 7:36:29 AM Central Daylight Time, Ron@Koyich.com
writes:
Unless it's an AVO Mk VIII, Bob <g> And the Simpson must have a yellow
meter scale.
I guess I lose!
I don't have a yellow scale and I don't even know what an AVO Mk VIII is!
Do Not Archive (I don't know how this works either)
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Airpark LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Message 3
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| Subject: | Ringing out wires |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
Old Bob,
"It is my understanding that early electricians would run a batch of wires
through a home or other structure. In order to determine the continuity,
they
would hook up a battery powered door bell between the wire and ground, then
check the far ends to ground. When they found the correct wire, the door
bell
would ring. Thus the term, "ring out the wire." "
Hi, Bob, I learn something here every day! I had no idea I was ringing!
Ferg
Message 4
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Chiocchio, Stanley" <schiocchio@olhcc.edu>
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Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Wire Marking |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
In a message dated 6/19/04 9:20:07 AM Central Daylight Time,
schiocchio@olhcc.edu writes:
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Good Morning Stanley,
The message above came through as unintelligible code. Any possibility you
could resend it in a mode that we computer illiterates could read?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Airpark LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Message 6
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| Subject: | Brian and batteries |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
Brian,
Allow me to second the remarks of Schroeder in supporting your
careful, long and comprehensive article. I also copied some of the remarks
and rebuttals for clarification.
I appreciate your taking the trouble to describe some of the
battery actions I had failed to comprehend - and perhaps last but not least,
doing so without some of the spelling and grammatical errors obvious in
others'!
Cheers and Happy Landings......
Ferg
Europa A064
Message 7
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Chiocchio, Stanley" <schiocchio@olhcc.edu>
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Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Battery types (Was: 2 batteries, 1 alternator) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
Ken wrote:
> I'm also paying attention to your posts as I have chosen small Dekka
> ETX9 batteries and it seems clear that small AGM batteries will not
> tolerate as much overcharging abuse as large flooded batteries.
No, they won't. They will die an early death.
> I didn't
> know that 3 state VR's existed before your post although I did know that
> was the preferred charging method. Unfortunately it seems they are more
> expensive than my alternators and batteries combined so I will monitor
> my batteries carefully and perhaps try a few simple things once I get
> flying.
That is true and it may be cheaper to just keep replacing batteries. OTOH, spending
a couple hundred bucks on a proper charge controller will help your batteries
last for many years thus eliminating the need to buy new batteries every
year.
As for expense, there are many options. I happen to like Ample Power but they
are the Rolls Royce of alternator charge controllers and cost as such. The SAR3
I chose for my boat and will probably use in my airplane lists for $449. But
even there you can get better deals if you shop around. Ample Power also makes
their analog regulator, the NextStep, which has a list price of $349. This
is also a very good regulator.
Xantrex and Balmar make alternator controllers with current limiting and three-stage
battery charging. Since they are less specialized and serve a larger market,
their prices are lower. A really quick check found the Xantrex XAR alternator
regulator for $220 and I know the site is not a discount site. I am sure
you can find it cheaper elsewhere. I suspect that getting something under
$200 makes it a lot more palatable to many people building airplanes on a budget.
BTW, most internally regulated automotive alternators can be modified for external
regulation. That may be something to consider if you want to save some money.
> I suspect that proper care and feeding of these critters will
> become a bigger concern as they become more common and we start taking
> advantage of smaller lighter batteries.
I agree.
> I was aware of the Dekka white
> paper but your reports of battery failures are more telling in terms of
> real world results. Perhaps you'd care to elaborate on the failures such
> as time to failure and average trip times during service...
I was using Concorde AGMs in my Comanche. I went through three batteries in about
four years with the battery failing to the point where it would not reliably
crank the engine when hot. Switching back to flooded-cell batteries solved
the problem and the Comanche now gets about 3-4 years from a battery. When your
battery can't crank your engine you know it is really far gone and should
have been replaced long ago. One needs to do capacity testing of the battery
every 6 months or a year. The FAA is now requiring that at annual for certified
aircraft.
One of the issues is that I typically fly the Comanche on long cross countries.
The battery has a chance to charge and then overcharge. When I fly three 3-hour
legs in a day (not uncommon for me to do several times per year) the battery
is going to overcharge.
BTW, the time the AGM lasted longest was when I was commuting daily to work, two
45-minute flights per day and the airplane sitting for protracted periods of
time otherwise. In that case the battery didn't really have time to overcharge
much and then had a rest where the gasses could recombine. Still, the battery
only lasted two years in that service.
> This thread
> reminds me of the car that we put a dashboard knob on to adjust the
> voltage and stop the rapid electrolyte loss on long summer trips. That
> was with a mechanical regulator with no temperature compensation at all.
Well, you were part of the feedback loop and dropped the voltage to the proper
float voltage manually. That will work if you are diligent. No reason you can't
do the same thing in your airplane by switching the VR setpoint from charge
to float.
And that is a good empirical way to determine proper float voltage; keep turning
down the voltage and check water loss until you get to the voltage where the
battery stops using water. I did that with the first UPS I built for myself
back in the early '80s. But I had the advantage that my battery was always as
the same temperature in my basement. It is a lot tougher to do in an airplane
in flight through varying conditions.
> Modern internal VR's have at least some air temperature compensation and
> I suspect that there is some benefit to mounting the battery on the cool
> side of the firewall so it can tolerate a higher than ideal voltage in
> cruise. Worst case is perhaps an external mechanical VR and the battery
> on the hot side of the firewall.
The temp comp in the alternator is there more to protect the alternator than the
battery. If you turn down the VR setpoint the alternator delivers less power
and runs cooler. It does not even come close to setting the voltage properly
to charge the battery.
Keeping the battery cooler helps. Measuring the temperature of the battery and
setting the voltage properly is always correct.
> I don't have a clue whether the John Deere PM alternator regulator on my
> second battery has any temperature compensation in it yet.
I wouldn't bet on it. Regardless, it is not at the battery so you are not adjusting
the VR setpoint based on battery temperature, which is what counts. If
it doesn't have a specific external device to measure the battery temperature,
it is not temperature compensated to prevent damage to the battery. Period.
> My powerplant is a multi port EFI Subaru. Occasionally I'm
> misinterpreted here as my perspective is not necessarily from a Lycoming
> background.
Electrical systems are not a function of the engine so I wasn't really thinking
about Subaru vs. Lycoming. Heck, I even think about my boat's electrical system
in all of this discussion. The thing is, there are more similarities than
differences in electrical systems. You have a power source; e.g. alternator,
solar PV panel, wind-powered generator, etc.; a storage system, i.e. battery
bank; and a distribution system, i.e. various busses. There really are only four
issues in the system design:
1. steady-state power requirements;
2. peak power requirements (starting);
3. worst-case run time if the power source fails;
4. required system reliability.
So this is all a matter of scaling the components and the system topology remains
relatively constant (as Bob has shown with his prepackaged designs).
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
http://www.lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 (voice) +1.360.838.9669 (fax)
There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest.
A good citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Phillips head screws |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jim Oke <wjoke@shaw.ca>
Further to the below, Canadian builders (and those close enough to
cross-border shop) should be able to buy #6 x 1/2" galvanized Robertsons
with a #0 head which, when used with a tinnerman, work nicely for RV trim
and non-structural applications. These can be found in the aviation
department of most Canadian Tire stores. (For non-GWN residents, this
reference is to a large chain of stores which sell auto parts, hardware,
sporting goods, and all sorts of stuff, including .... tires.)
Jim Oke
RV-6A, RV-3
Winnipeg, MB
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Jewell" <jjewell@telus.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Phillips head screws
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" <jjewell@telus.net>
>
> To add just a bit more info Robertson head screws have a square hole that
is
> progressively tapered toward the bottom of the hole. In Canada they are
> commonly found holding manufactured goods such as washers and driers
> etc.together. They are also extensively used in the building trades.
> In use they are less likely to strip out the head.
> If put on the screw driver to reach into tight quarters they will stay put
> some what better.
> They come in a full range of screw fastener types and sizes including
> drywall wood and machine screw applications.
>
> I can send you a picture as this email is much less than a thousand words.
> {[g-)!
>
> Jim in Kelowna the smoke devils stayed in the wires! Yeah !!
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "cgalley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
> To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Phillips head screws
>
>
> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "cgalley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
> >
> > Square drive hole.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Jerzy Krasinski" <krasinski@provalue.net>
> > To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Phillips head screws
> >
> >
> > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jerzy Krasinski"
> > <krasinski@provalue.net>
> > >
> > > What is Robertson head screw? Do you have a picture?
> > >
> > > Jerzy
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "BTomm" <fvalarm@rapidnet.net>
> > > To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
> > > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Phillips head screws
> > >
> > >
> > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BTomm
<fvalarm@rapidnet.net>
> > > >
> > > > Unfortunately, Robertson head screws are one of Canada's best kept
> > > secrets.
> > > >
> > > > Bevan
> > > > RV7A
> > > >
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Battery types (Was: 2 batteries, 1 alternator) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
Paul Messinger wrote:
> Alternator current is not battery current. I agree that battery temp is
> important if you want to avoid overcharging the battery. But how much and
> for how long is the issue I am trying to get to. How does the smart charger
> / regulator know how much current is going where given the assumed design of
> only a load meter and no battery current sensor per Bob's designs of late.
> ...
> I simply do not see how the smart charger/regulator or what ever can tell
> about the battery state of charge without looking at the battery in a stand
> alone mode or at least measuring the input current to the battery. You say
> only the battery temp is needed.
Temp input is needed to set the proper charging voltage.
> Clearly I am missing something as the systems I have looked at that include
> this multi stage charging setup assume the battery is independent and ant
> loads go back thru the charge controller.
The smart charger uses the alternator load only to protect the alternator. One
of the prime failure modes of alternator based charging systems using three-stage
charging regulators was the that alternator was called upon to deliver 100%
output for relatively long periods of time while charging big battery banks
on boats and RVs. The alternators would overheat and fail. This led to the creation
of so-called "high output" alternators that had sufficient cooling and
robustness to operate at 100% load for indefinite periods of time. Having alternator
load sensing is more of an issue when using modified automotive alternators
(and aviation alternators I suspect). The alternator controller can then
operate in constant-current mode thus preventing the alternator from exceeding
its safe ratings. One manufacturer, Balmar I think, uses a temperature sensor
on the alternator so it can tell if the alternator is overheating and then
reduce field excitation to limit alternator output.
> I simply do not see how the smart charger/regulator or what ever can tell
> about the battery state of charge without looking at the battery in a stand
> alone mode or at least measuring the input current to the battery. You say
> only the battery temp is needed.
>
> Clearly I am missing something as the systems I have looked at that include
> this multi stage charging setup assume the battery is independent and ant
> loads go back thru the charge controller.
As for properly judging the appropriate cut-off point where the controller switches
from absorption voltage to float voltage, there are two approaches. One
is to actually monitor the current going into the battery and actively determine
battery charge state. On my boat this is accomplished by the energy monitor
which actively determines battery charge state by tracking energy removed from
the battery (including properly calculating Peukert's formula for battery capacity
vs. discharge rate). It knows how to signal the VR to change its voltage
setpoint at the proper time. This is the expensive way to do things but it
is 100% effective.
The other is rather simplistic but works rather well. It turns out that the absorption
charge time is relatively constant so the VR sets a timer when the battery
reaches the absorption charge point (when the battery voltage rises to the
VR setpoint and the alternator is no longer being called upon to deliver 100%
output) and switches to float after that time expires. It is simple and quite
effective. Usually this time is on the order of 1-2 hours. You can measure
the time it takes for the charging current to drop to 5% and then set that
as the absorption time or you can just guess. :-)
What this means to pilots is that, if your flying is mostly in the pattern for
an hour at a time, three-stage charging is probably a moot point because you will
never get past the absorption charge stage into the float charge stage. OTOH,
if you fly cross-country it becomes very important. I suspect that I am
talking more to the guy building the cross-country IFR machine than the guy building
the day VFR fly-an-hour-for-the-fun-of-it airplane.
>>No, it is not. I have suffered numerous failures of AGM batteries in
>
> standard aircraft. If I had needed to rely on my battery to power my
> avionics under instrument conditions, I would have been screwed. My
> research into the charging of these batteries has led me to understand the
> nature of the failure and how it is caused by currently accepted best
> practices in aircraft electrical system design.
>
> Other than Concord (that I would not near my aircraft) I have not heard of
> significant battery problems.
I am limited as to what I can put into my Comanche by what is approved by the FAA.
The problems I had were with Concord batteries.
Regardless, would those batteries have survived if they were being charged properly?
I suspect they would have given good service in that case. Certainly Concord
flooded-cell batteries have given me good service.
>>>First; If I ever have a significant depth of discharge, its because of a
>>>Failure of the electrical system. I would not fly again until I have
>>>determined the reason for the failure and corrected it including
>
> redesign or
>
>>>use of different parts.
>>
>>Wrong. These problems affect battery life even when you are not
>
> discharging the battery.
>
> Never said they did not Just that the average persons flying time per year
> is far short of what I have seen as damaging. This does assume the Alt reg
> is set to a reasonable voltage, and many are set to high.
The point of my post was education. People are going to have to think about how
they are going to want their electrical system to perform. The cross-country
IFR pilot wants to ensure that the battery will carry the necessary loads long
enough to safely complete the flight under IFR conditions. The day VFR pilot
doesn't have the same requirements. A total electrical failure during day
VFR is a minor annoyance. A total electrical failure during night IFR is life
threatening. One must consider the mission, the threats, and the risks in designing
the proper system. And one needs information in order to determine the
threats and the risks.
>>>This includes the need for prolonged attempts to start the engine. If it
>>>takes more than a very few blades or 10 seconds there is a problem that
>>>needs fixing.
>>
>>I guess you have never started a fuel-injected engine. I know my fuel
>
> injected engines like the back of my hand but sometimes it takes even me
> more than a few blades to get them to start when they are hot.
>
> I have lots of time in injected aircraft including a couple of Beech 35's
> (that I have owned) and its rare that hot starts need more then 5 seconds
> using the proper hot starting procedure. However that was a cont and many
> lycs have a different fuel system and can be a little harder to start but
> that's a design shortcoming on the Lyc.
It doesn't matter whether you think that the Lycoming injection system (actually
Bendix RSA) is better or worse than Continental's (I happen to think it is better
because it is a closed-loop servo system based on mass airflow measurement),
the key point is that the problem I described CAN and DOES happen on a regular
basis.
> Even there 10 seconds is longer than needed.
In a perfect world, maybe. If you feed the engine the proper mixture, it will
fire and run. In a hot start that can be difficult and many OBAM aircraft have
very tight cowls that retain heat on the ground causing the entire fuel system
to become heat-soaked. Ensuring the proper mixture then becomes a crap shoot.
They can be a real bitch to hot-start even if you hold your tongue right
and the airplane gods are on your side.
So perhaps you knew the magic incantation to make your engine start in three blades
at all times but I think that the experience of the run-of-the-mill pilot
will be different. I accept that it is possible that the pilot may have a period
of extended cranking which will heat up and discharge the battery. That
is the safest assumption and I prefer to design for that.
As an aside, I have found that if I catch it just right, I can start my Lyc IO-540s
in about three blades on a hot start. But I can only do that about 30% of
the time. I do know that if I use the flooded-start procedure I can always
start the engine but I will need to crank it for about 15 seconds. Undoubtedly
you are a better pilot than I but somehow I have figured out how to operate
the aircraft reliably and can teach others to do so as well.
>>>Thus depth of discharge cycles is a non issue.
>>
>>For the most part, yes. But understanding the characteristics of the
>
> different batteries is still a good thing, don't you think?
>
> Yes; but that is taken care of by a simple link note pages of replication on
> this list. If I am given a link and I am interested then that is enough. for
> me.
Possibly. OTOH I have found that sometimes I am able to make things clearer for
people than the raw data would. I guess that is just me being arrogant so I
apologize.
>>Why are you spending all this time to run down my posting? Did I lie or
>
> something? Gee whiz, I was just trying to make some information available
> that has turned out to be very useful to me and it seems like I have stepped
> on your toes.
>
> I am sorry you do not desire to accept or listen to another point of Vu but
> that is your choice.
I guess I misunderstood what you were saying then. It seemed to me that you were
saying that I was wrong.
> Perhaps I missed the you post or missed reading something but I do not
> recall any specific info on exactly what you are suggesting.
>
> One needs to get specific on exactly the parts recommended (including
> technical data links etc) and how they are wired
Yes, eventually. It is difficult to understand a particular circuit topology unless
you know the background behind it. All my big post was intended to do was
to point out the characteristics of the various battery types and how they
should be treated to get best life out of them. Heck, as Ken Lehman pointed out,
they solved the problem in their car with a mechanical adjustment of the old
mechanical VR. In that they created a three-stage charge controller where
the human was part of the feedback loop. There are many ways to skin the cat.
One of my favorite quotations came from General George S. Patton and reads: "Never
tell a many how to do a job. Tell him what to do and he will surprise you
with his ingenuity." It seems appropriate here.
> And all the while this 3 stage charge is going on the acft bus needs to be
> above around 13.5 and below around 14.5 or either the lo or hi voltage
> alarms are likely to go off if these are exceeded.
The low voltage alarm needn't be set for anything above 13V. Anything above that
and the alternator is on-line and charging the battery. The high voltage alarm
is set for something like 15V. I don't see the problem.
> Not to mention that the
> equipment performs best around 13.8v Not my numbers but generally accepted
Hmm, I have never seen that 13.8V is a hard-and-fast magic number. I know that
many manufacturers of automotive electronics and avionics use that as a nominal
value for testing but I wasn't aware that was a magic number to which equipment
was explicitly designed. Please provide the pointer to the data. I would
like to read it.
These last two things strike me as arbitrary road blocks to make a point. Neither
seems all that real to me.
> I do not claim to be an expert but do challenge what seems to be unrelated
> info or incomplete. I am willing to learn but I and I assume others would
> like you to get very specific with exactly what you propose including all
> the parts (from alternators to the battery and all the sensors and how they
> are connected and links so we can look at the technical info ourselves.
Well, one has to start somewhere. I chose to start with battery characteristics
as I found over many years that most people, even the "experts", didn't know
squat about batteries. I have collected a lot of information over the years
and it really gelled in my mind (sorry, pun intended) in about the last four years
while working on alternative power (solar/wind) and marine electrical systems.
Since Bob seems to be one of the few people actually trying to bring aircraft
electrical systems into the present, this seemed to be a good place to
talk about it.
But I guess it is really a book and not just one posting. I guess I should just
write the whole book and then present it in its entirety instead of presenting
information piecemeal. Still, several people on the list have written to thank
me for the post so I guess some found it useful.
> Better is not needed as Bob has often suggested to go with the Panasonic
> type battery and just replace it every year.
That is certainly a viable alternative. I would hate to have a critical component,
in this case a battery, fail on me under hard IFR conditions when operating
it within its design operating range would have ensured that it would perform
properly should the need have arisen.
We spend so much time determining that all the other components in the electrical
system are operated well within their ratings for long life but then turn around
and say that it doesn't matter for the most critical component, the battery.
Well, you pays yer money and you takes yer choice.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
http://www.lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 (voice) +1.360.838.9669 (fax)
There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest.
A good citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises.
Message 11
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| Subject: | "do-not-arch-ive" |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
Ron Koyich wrote:
> (Is this non archiving note read by a computer or a person? Is it
> required?)
Matronics mail computer reads every message. When it sees the Do-not-arch*ive
string of letters it does not save the message for people to look at later when
they peruse the archives.
Matt added this feature a couple of years back because disk storage was getting
tight and people knew when they were making off-hand and off-topic posts that
would not be interesting in the long run. Since then disk storage has gotten
really cheap so that the need to save disk space was less important.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
http://www.lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 (voice) +1.360.838.9669 (fax)
There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest.
A good citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Brian and batteries |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
Fergus Kyle wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
>
> Brian,
> Allow me to second the remarks of Schroeder in supporting your
> careful, long and comprehensive article. I also copied some of the remarks
> and rebuttals for clarification.
Thank you.
> I appreciate your taking the trouble to describe some of the
> battery actions I had failed to comprehend - and perhaps last but not least,
> doing so without some of the spelling and grammatical errors obvious in
> others'!
I consider myself to be a literate man and I take pains to write clearly and grammatically.
Thank you for noticing.
As I tell my children, in this world of electronic communications what you write
may be the only way some people know you so you want to leave people with the
best impression possible. Some of my postings from the early 1980's are still
archived on the net for people to find so I know anything I write may be around
for a long time.
Having had to "eat my words" on more than one occasion makes me want to keep those
words sweet. ;-)
P.S. my ham call is WB6RQN.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
http://www.lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 (voice) +1.360.838.9669 (fax)
There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest.
A good citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises.
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Re Odyssey Batteries |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
Rex & Jan Shaw wrote:
> I am convinced
> that replacing my flooded wet cell with an Odyssey is the way to go and have
> one on order. However it's more expensive so I don't want to wreck it. I see
> a lot of info on charging that can be followed OK but I am left wondering as
> to the suitability of the charging system in my plane. It is a Kitfox with a
> Rotax 582. This has the better 264-870 regulator. Is this suitable for the
> Odyssey or should I be looking to change it ?
> My rotax manual says this regulator puts out 13.5 to 14.5 volts but does
> not elaborate further. I am wondering if that means once there is enough
> revs to charge that it puts out 14.5 volts until the battery is fairly well
> charged then it drops back to 13.5 volts. Does any one know please ?
I doubt it does the three-stage charge process. I have only seen that in aftermarket
voltage regulators. I supsect that it just means that the output may be
anywhere from 13.5 to 14.5 volts, not exactly what you want for charging your
battery.
OTOH, I can help you find out. Go ahead and install the odyssey battery but also
install a good expanded-scale voltmeter. Bob used to sell a nice voltmeter/loadmeter
combination that is perfect but I haven't been able to find it recently
on his or B&C's web pages. (Could someone help me out with a pointer here?)
You want to go flying and watch the voltage. If it rises above the proper
charging voltage for an AGM battery, your charging system is doing damage to
the battery. It would be nice to be able to turn the voltage down somehow at
that point.
Here is a problem with the Odyssey battery; I can't find charging voltage vs. temperature
graphs or tables for it. All the factory provides is this:
http://www.odysseyfactory.com/odycharg_a.htm
Since we know that all lead-acid batteries have temperature-dependent charge voltages,
we know that there is information missing from the Odyssey data. They
give charge and float voltages but they don't give them relative to temperature.
Perhaps they assume that the battery will be charged at 70F-80F, the temperature
people keep their houses.
And given that they are AGM batteries I am a bit skeptical of the somewhat high
float voltage. Most AGMs and flooded-cell batteries seem to like float voltages
much lower than that.
But the manufacturer is the final say for the proper operation of their battery.
You should always check the manufacturer's recommendations when setting up
a charging system.
> I have studied all these discharge rates for Odyssey batteries but am left
> wondering just what amps my starter draws. Would anyone have an idea please
> ?
Sorry, but I can't help you there.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
http://www.lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 (voice) +1.360.838.9669 (fax)
There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest.
A good citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises.
Message 14
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| Subject: | battery charging data |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
Odyssey: http://www.odysseyfactory.com/odycharg_a.htm
Deka: http://www.eastpenn-deka.com/cgi-bin/pdfregister.pl?filename=0139.pdf
Concorde: http://www.concordebattery.com/products/technical_info/default.htm
(This doesn't have much on charging but it does have many other interesting
bits of information.)
Panasonic: http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/battery/oem/chem/seal/
http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/battery/oem/images/pdf/Panasonic_VRLA_ChargingMethods.pdf
The latter paper is very interesting in that they point out how critical it is
to long-term battery life to maintain the proper voltage-to-temperature values
for long-term charging. Unfortunately the paper was written by engineers for
engineers and they didn't use dime-sized words where they could use dollar-sized
words instead. :-)
Exide: http://www.exide.com
(I couldn't find much here on charging, just tables giving charge times
vs. charge state. Not useful.)
So there is information out there but you have to find it. Not all the battery
manufacturers provide good charging information. Deka and Panasonic seem to
have the best information on charging their batteries properly.
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
http://www.lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 (voice) +1.360.838.9669 (fax)
There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest.
A good citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises.
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Battery types (Was: 2 batteries, 1 alternator) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
You know what all this is about? I really want Bob to redesign the LR3 to be a
three-stage regulator/charge controller. You gotta keep up with the times you
know.
;-)
--
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
http://www.lloyd.com St. Thomas, VI 00802
+1.340.998.9447 (voice) +1.360.838.9669 (fax)
There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest.
A good citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises.
Message 16
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| Subject: | Tinnerman Washers |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <bakerocb@cox.net>
<< AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "Gregory Young" <gyoung@cs-sol.com>
Actually, Aircraft Spruce has the 82 deg Tinnerman washers. I just
bought some 100 deg ones and was surprised to see the 82 deg listed. Someone
must want them. Greg Young>>
6/19/2004
Hello Greg, Thanks for your input. I have reexamined the Aircraft Spruce catalog,
page 94 of the 2003-2004 edition, and some of my reference material very carefully.
Here are the washers in question:
1) An aviation quality, 100 degree dimpled, countersunk, spring steel, cadmium
plated washer made to the NAS1169 Standard. This Standard also provided for an
aluminum, but not stainless steel, version of this washer. This is the only
true aviation quality Tinnerman washer and is where the name came from.
2) A commercial quality imitation of the above washer made of stainless steel.
Commonly called a Tinnerman washer and widely accepted and used where a stainless
steel version of item 1) is desired. May not have the precise shape called
for in the NAS1169 Standard.
3) An aviation quality, 100 degree countersunk, raised (an oxymoron), cup finishing
washer made to either the NAS 391 or the MS27129 Standards in nickel, or
chromium plated brass and stainless steel.
4) An aviation quality, 100 degree countersunk, flush finishing washer made to
the NAS 390 Standard in nickel or chromium plated brass.
5) A commercial quality 82 degree countersunk, raised finishing washer in stainless
steel similar to item 3).
Of the five washers above only 1) and 2) can be used as, and considered to be
Tinnerman washers. The washer in 5) above, while it involves the terms countersunk
and 82 degrees is not a Tinnerman washer in either shape or usage.
I stand by my statement that I know of no 82 degree countersunk Tinnerman washers.
OC
PS: My apologies to the electrical types reading this list and despairing of these
apparent semantic exercises regarding screws. The only excuses that I can
offer are:
A)These screws are pretty important since they keep our airborne vehicles from
falling apart.
B) There seems to be a great deal of sincere interest in this subject among readers
of this list.
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