Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:40 AM - Narco indicator to-from is backwards?? (Hal / Carol Kempthorne)
2. 08:41 AM - Re: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 07/09/04 (Joel Harding)
3. 10:02 AM - Avionics master switch (david caswell)
4. 10:50 AM - Voltage cruising (Fergus Kyle)
5. 03:36 PM - Re: Avionics master switch (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
6. 06:46 PM - Grounds - XM (David Schaefer)
7. 08:25 PM - [ Dennis Johnson ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (Email List Photo Shares)
8. 08:58 PM - Load Dump report status. (Paul Messinger)
9. 10:01 PM - Re: Load Dump report status. (Ed Anderson)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Narco indicator to-from is backwards?? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Hal / Carol Kempthorne <kempthornes@earthlink.net>
Hi all,
I installed a Narco VOR unit in my RV6a. Model is Nav 824 and the
indicator is an ID-824. Cable I made up is pretty simple.
All works fine except TO - FROM flag triangle is backwards. If I am south
of the station and I set the indicator on 360, the triangle points down.
Backwards. I can't even see how wiring it wrong could cause this effect.
But what could?
hal
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 07/09/04 |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Joel Harding <cajole76@ispwest.com>
Stan,
I ended up putting a shunt in the line from the alternator to the
starter contactor and another in the line from the essential bus switch
to the essential bus. I put a shunt switch between both of those and
the E I volt/amp meter.
Overkill..... probably, but I can tell how hard the alternator is
working, and also how fast I'm pulling down the battery, if the
alternator quits. I have a B & C alternator, so that will probably
never happen, but I just like a lot of numbers to look at. If you are
interested, I can send you a thoroughly confusing diagram of what I
ended up with.
Joel Harding #80004
Closing in on the big event.
On Jul 10, 2004, at 11:48 AM, Speedy11@aol.com wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Speedy11@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 7/10/2004 2:56:42 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> aeroelectric-list-digest@matronics.com writes:
> How about reading from numerous locations with a selector switch?
> I'd like
> to read volts and amps from several locations such as battery 1,
> battery 2,
> alternator 1, alternator 2, main bus, ess bus, etc. Can I assume
> that is
> not terribly difficult to do?
> Stan Sutterfield
>
>
> Good Evening Stan,
>
> This is a different Bob!
>
> Unless you have a diode in the circuit that will drop the voltage, or
> some
> other method of isolating the system to be checked from the rest of the
> system, it should read the same everywhere.
>
> I suppose there could be some trouble shooting capability by using
> pick ups
> at various points around the system. However, as long as the wiring is
> properly done and in good condition, all voltages will read the same.
>
> Happy Skies,
>
> Old Bob
> Different Bob,
> Thanks for your reply. I don't want to sound like I'm trying to build
> a whiz
> bang commercial jet, but in the commercial jets we can select various
> points
> in the electrical system such as generator 1, generator 2, APU
> generator,
> battery, battery bus, standby bus, etc., and each selection indicates
> what the
> volts/amps are at that particular point. For example, one can select
> generator 1
> and read the output - I guess much like a meter I might use in my shop
> to
> check electricity. It seems as though such a setup could be useful for
> troubleshooting and for general monitoring of the system. How does
> one "sample" the
> electricity at several locations?
> Stan Sutterfield
>
>
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> >
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Avionics master switch |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: david caswell <davidbcaswell@yahoo.com>
I'm in process of putting together electrics for an RV-7. I'm using the "Z-11"
schematic.
My concerns are two:
1) I'm accustomed to flying conventional planes with an Avionics Master that
is required to be turned off when starting the motor. I don't see any provision
for that in the schematic. I'm using a starter button and it seems that
the avionics would be on when the engine is being cranked. Is this a problem?
2) On the essential bus, (in the event of alternator failure) I would like
to include the engine instruments with a switch to allow me to turn them on
and off so that I can monitor them periodically. Is that possible, and if so,
what is the best way to do that?
Message 4
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| Subject: | Voltage cruising |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
"""
Time: 11:15:39 AM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 6 Msgs -
07/09/04
In a message dated 7/10/04 12:49:47 PM Central Daylight Time,
Speedy11@aol.com writes:
I guess much like a meter I might use in my shop to check electricity. It
seems as though such a setup could be useful for troubleshooting and for
general monitoring of the system. How does one "sample" the electricity at
several locations?
Good Afternoon Stan,
I think you will find that it is relatively easy to wire up a load meter to
check the voltage and current flow from various sources, but you can only
check voltage when the sources of voltage are isolated. Not sure what kind
of Commercial Jets you are flying, but all the ones I flew required that we
isolate the systems to be able to check available voltage. As long as they
are all hooked to the system, all voltages will be the same other than for
those cases where an intentional voltage dropping device is built into the
system.
However, the ammeter will show the loads that each source is putting out or
receiving as the case may be.
Somewhere in the recesses of my ancient mind, I do recall that the 737 had
"break before make" switches so that various systems could be isolated.
Most
other commercial aircraft I flew fed everything to the same primary busses
and
that made them all read the voltage of the highest voltage source. Remember
all the paralleling problems on the 707/720 and 727?
I suppose as long as you kept one side isolated from the other, the voltage
could be checked. Seems like there was some of that capability on a few of
the other jet transports I flew. It's been a while!!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator"""
Cheers,
....am in full accord with 'Old Bob' on the topic, with the
proviso that my experience (DC3 - L1011) was that little was learned from
gauging voltage throughout the system unless:
[1] You knew all recesses of the circuitry intimately (I never could);
[2] There was a reason to plumb these corners (we read them all into the
log every hour on the Connie, and who would ever find time to read twenty
logs a day), i.e: it was forensic, and
[3] We only learned something during an electrical fire when chasing up
an electrical circuit helped eliminate the cause. Old Bob will confirm we
spent hours practising turning everything off and then back on, one unit at
a time or words to that effect. .......never found one cause that way
because the stink gave away the cause minutes earlier - that's experience
from four fires enroute, and usually halfway across some ocean or other.
Does a relatively simple homebuilt call for such dedication?
maybe.
Ferg
Europa A064
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Avionics master switch |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
In a message dated 07/11/2004 11:03:34 AM Central Standard Time,
davidbcaswell@yahoo.com writes:
1) I'm accustomed to flying conventional planes with an Avionics Master
that is required to be turned off when starting the motor. I don't see any
provision for that in the schematic. I'm using a starter button and it seems
that the avionics would be on when the engine is being cranked. Is this a
problem?
Welcome, David!
You must be a recent subscriber as this issue has been discussed ad nauseum
since the inception of the Aeroelectric list, but the short answer is that if
you install typical avionics, they are normally built to a standard which
should make voltage transients encountered during engine cranking a non-event,
even
though many manufacturers of these goodies will tell you otherwise in their
documentation. If you (or the manufacturer) are nervous about having the
device energized during engine cranking, simply use the power switch on the device
to delay its power-up until after the fan is happily turning. Per Microair's
instructions, I leave my comm and xpndr off until engine start as reflected on
my checklists, but my engine instrumentation (EIS) is wired direct (blessed
by Grand Rapids) . The whole philosophy here is to KISS and use the absolute
minimum components necessary to make the bells ring and whistles blow. Not
having a separate avionics bus helps achieve this. (p.s.- you AREN'T building
a
conventional airplane, so why do it that way? The fact you are here proves you
think you can do better!!)
2) On the essential bus, (in the event of alternator failure) I would
like to include the engine instruments with a switch to allow me to turn them
on and off so that I can monitor them periodically. Is that possible, and if
so, what is the best way to do that?
Normally engine instrumentation is pretty low-draw stuff. The whole trick to
E-bus usage is to determine the maximum current needed by whatever you want
on it (preferably important stuff like engine instruments!) and size your
battery accordingly. For example, I have my comm, xpndr, engine monitor, EFIS
system (PCFlight Systems + power to 2 PDAs), fuel pump and annunciator- nothing
here sucks much amps but the comm when transmitting or the fuel pump, neither of
which should be needed much in the event of alternator failure- which is the
main reason you HAVE an E-bus. My RV-6A has one of them itty-bitty Panasonic
20Ah RG batts, and if the engine cranks and runs long enough to recharge it,
(40 amp B&C alternator monitored by Bobs LVWM) I can fly until bingo gas with
no sweat, which is the whole idea.
You could entertain yourself for daze on end researching this stuff in the
archives, or just take Bob's book to heart (you HAVE read the Aeroelectric
Connection, haven't you?) and build a perfectly useful, rediculously reliable
electric system under his directions. Or build it like the spam folks do and live
with that. One signature of Nuckolls (paraphrased) says "If you always do
what you always done, you'll always be what you've always been". Gee, I just
love that line! 8-)
From The PossumWorks in TN
Mark - N51PW, 80+ giggling hours & a starter button on my Z-11!
Message 6
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Schaefer" <dschaefer1@kc.rr.com>
Bob ...
Checked my XM installation today. Separate ground, but a shared power run
with the headsets. The XM power supply is truly the culprit of the
high-pitched noise in the headphones. Any idea where I can get a "quiet' 6
volt power supply? I need 12 volts in and 6 out.
Otherwise the aircraft is quiet as a stone. Running all those 'home-run'
grounds worked just as advertised!!
Regards,
David
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Grounds
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 08:51 AM 7/9/2004 -0700, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mickey Billings" <mbilli@cox.net>
>
>I am getting ready to begin the wiring on our RV7 and do not completely
>understand grounds. As of this date I have heard of 3 types:
>
>1. Airframe which I think I understand.
>2. (and here is where the confusion comes in) Avionics ground....is this
>isolated from the airframe?
>3. Battery ground...is this different from the Airframe ground and the
>Avionics ground?
>
>I believe the Battery ground and Avionics ground are one in the same but
not
>sure. Can anyone clear up this subject for me.....Thanks!
Is this purely an academic question or are you working on a particular
airplane? If a particular airplane, what kind and where do you want
to install your battery?
You might review the ground architecture drawings in Appendix Z to
the AeroElectric Connection which you can download from:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev10/z10.pdf
Check out figure Z-15 (two sheets).
In general, airframe grounds are made to any convenient metallic
structure. Recommend you limit real airframe grounding to remotely
mounted, non-victim/non-antagonist products like landing lights,
nav lights, pitot heaters, etc. Figure Z-15 will show a firewall
mounted, single point ground where all other things can come together
to avoid introduction of noises into potential victim systems
by potential antagonist systems. The single point firewall ground
eliminates potential for any and all "ground loops".
Power distribution diagrams published in appendix-z use the convention
G1 = crankcase ground, G2 = firewall ground (fwd), G3 = firewall ground
(aft side) and LCL for local airframe ground were applicable.
Bob . . .
-----------------------------------------
( Experience and common sense cannot be )
( replaced with policy and procedures. )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
-----------------------------------------
Message 7
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| Subject: | [ Dennis Johnson ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Email List Photo Shares <pictures@matronics.com>
A new Email List Photo Share is available:
Poster: Dennis Johnson <pinetownd@volcano.net>
Subject: Revised Starter/Mag Switches
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/pinetownd@volcano.net.07.11.2004/index.html
o Main Photo Share Index
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
o Submitting a Photo Share
If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the
following information along with your email message and files:
1) Email List or Lists that they are related to:
2) Your Full Name:
3) Your Email Address:
4) One line Subject description:
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6) One-line Description of each photo or file:
Email the information above and your files and photos to:
pictures@matronics.com
Message 8
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| Subject: | Load Dump report status. |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Paul Messinger" <paulm@olypen.com>
We are in the last stages of the report.
What started out to be a simple test of alternator load dump has turned out
to be a huge time sink for us. One estimated week has expanded into over
three months.
In building the test simulator it was decided to use a simplified test
circuit that contained the essentials of a basic aircraft electrical system
using parts likely to be used by many builders. Contactors from Wicks or
ACFT Spruce etc. Bob's OVP per "the do it your self version", both the
popular Panasonic Type 12v 18 ah battery as well as the Odyssey PC625 that
were lying around and not to be used in flight.
There were problems from the start that needed to be sorted out before the
initial Alternator load dumps could be characterized.
While load dump is well known its surprising how different it's defined,
based on who is defining it. There is a factor of ten in the magnitude of
the dump pulse in the different literature.
Thanks to Bob, we have a copy of DO-160 to review and apply to our testing.
Perhaps surprising there are short comings in this document.
We also decided that to only point out designs or devices that did not meet
our expectations was not enough. We decided that an a solution needed to be
designed and tested so anyone wanting to follow the test results and
suggested changes could have a really available alternative solution.
There were no "grounding before next flight" problems discovered but there
are some design changes suggested to improve the reliability of the
electrical system.
We have dozens of tests and several hundred scope pictures etc to sort thru
to provide all the needed documentation to understand the tests and the test
results. This report in being written in a format that is intended to reduce
the electronics background needed to understand the test and test results.
The tests and test results are presented as facts and have been repeatable
over the entire duration of the testing process from start to some done
today.
Comments about the significance of the test results are informed opinion, as
are the recommended solutions. We will limit solutions to one or more
readily available ones and not leave a problem without a solution. The main
reason for the test duration is the need to design and test a solution to a
problem.
Clearly all aircraft electrical needs are different from say an VFR non
electric engine to an IFR electrically dependent engine. The specific design
of these systems is beyond the scope of this effort. There is a common core
of any system consisting of the alternator, main bus, and battery and that
is what we limited the study to.
The report will be posted on the web shortly after the end of OSH 2004. I
plan to make the trip there as do others on the list and we want to be
around to reply to comments on the report.
Paul
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Load Dump report status. |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
Great to hear, Paul. Looking forward to the results of all your work.
Undoubtedly will enhance the safety factor for those of use who fly
"all-electric" aircraft.
Ed
Ed Anderson
RV-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Messinger" <paulm@olypen.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Load Dump report status.
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Paul Messinger"
<paulm@olypen.com>
>
> We are in the last stages of the report.
>
> What started out to be a simple test of alternator load dump has turned
out
> to be a huge time sink for us. One estimated week has expanded into over
> three months.
>
> In building the test simulator it was decided to use a simplified test
> circuit that contained the essentials of a basic aircraft electrical
system
> using parts likely to be used by many builders. Contactors from Wicks or
> ACFT Spruce etc. Bob's OVP per "the do it your self version", both the
> popular Panasonic Type 12v 18 ah battery as well as the Odyssey PC625 that
> were lying around and not to be used in flight.
>
> There were problems from the start that needed to be sorted out before the
> initial Alternator load dumps could be characterized.
>
> While load dump is well known its surprising how different it's defined,
> based on who is defining it. There is a factor of ten in the magnitude of
> the dump pulse in the different literature.
>
> Thanks to Bob, we have a copy of DO-160 to review and apply to our
testing.
> Perhaps surprising there are short comings in this document.
>
> We also decided that to only point out designs or devices that did not
meet
> our expectations was not enough. We decided that an a solution needed to
be
> designed and tested so anyone wanting to follow the test results and
> suggested changes could have a really available alternative solution.
>
> There were no "grounding before next flight" problems discovered but there
> are some design changes suggested to improve the reliability of the
> electrical system.
>
> We have dozens of tests and several hundred scope pictures etc to sort
thru
> to provide all the needed documentation to understand the tests and the
test
> results. This report in being written in a format that is intended to
reduce
> the electronics background needed to understand the test and test results.
>
> The tests and test results are presented as facts and have been repeatable
> over the entire duration of the testing process from start to some done
> today.
>
> Comments about the significance of the test results are informed opinion,
as
> are the recommended solutions. We will limit solutions to one or more
> readily available ones and not leave a problem without a solution. The
main
> reason for the test duration is the need to design and test a solution to
a
> problem.
>
> Clearly all aircraft electrical needs are different from say an VFR non
> electric engine to an IFR electrically dependent engine. The specific
design
> of these systems is beyond the scope of this effort. There is a common
core
> of any system consisting of the alternator, main bus, and battery and that
> is what we limited the study to.
>
> The report will be posted on the web shortly after the end of OSH 2004. I
> plan to make the trip there as do others on the list and we want to be
> around to reply to comments on the report.
>
> Paul
>
>
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