Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:49 AM - Re: iPod and altitude (Brian Lloyd)
2. 06:18 AM - Re: Alternator/Battery Switches (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 06:46 AM - Re: Re: 12V VS. 24V Electrical System. (Brian Lloyd)
4. 06:51 AM - Re: 11540 Dudkoff (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 09:25 AM - Re: iPod and altitude (rd2@evenlink.com)
6. 09:31 AM - 3-position switch (rd2@evenlink.com)
7. 09:49 AM - Re: iPod and altitude (BobsV35B@aol.com)
8. 09:53 AM - Re: 3-position switch (BobsV35B@aol.com)
9. 10:07 AM - Re: iPod and altitude (Brian Lloyd)
10. 10:13 AM - Re: 3-position switch (rd2@evenlink.com)
11. 12:43 PM - XCOM 760 now shipping but... (RV8ter@aol.com)
12. 01:09 PM - Re: iPod and altitude (Larry Bowen)
13. 02:27 PM - Re: 3-position switch (BobsV35B@aol.com)
14. 03:45 PM - KX125 (Mickey Billings)
15. 04:18 PM - Re: KX125 (Franz Fux)
16. 07:33 PM - Re: iPod and altitude (Ernest Christley)
17. 08:05 PM - Re: iPod and altitude (James Foerster)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: iPod and altitude |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
On Aug 6, 2004, at 6:19 PM, Richard Tasker wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Richard Tasker
> <retasker@optonline.net>
>
> 1. All hard drives breathe. If you disassemble one (not a functioning
> one please) you will find there is a specific section with air holes
> and
> a filter.
> 2. LCDs are filled with a liquid. Liquids do not expand appreciably
> with changes in external air pressure. The LCD will be fine at any
> reasonable altitude.
> 3. The comment about Gs with a hard drive is right on, but the comment
> about "any altitude" is wrong. The other email explanations regarding
> the head "flying" on a film of air are correct - as the air density
> decreases the lift decreases until you have no margin for any Gs and
> you
> have a head crash. A single crash may not destroy anything - depending
> on how "bad" it is. Or it may just damage the magnetic coating so the
> next time it tries to record something there it doesn't work. Or it
> could destroy the head and you end up with a several hundred dollar
> paperweight!
You got all that right. There is one other thing to add: modern disk
drives are designed for the heads to "land" on the medium. In olden
days the magnetic medium was soft. It consisted of iron oxide in a
binder just like magnetic tape. A head touching down on the medium
meant damage to the medium. The disk drives therefore would retract
the heads completely on power-down. I remember one disk drive I worked
on had a set of AA-sized NiCd batteries that would be connected to the
voice-coil actuator on power-fail to force the heads to retract. It
was crude but effective.
Modern drives use a plated metallic medium. It is quite hard and quite
smooth. This allows the heads to land and take-off from the surface of
the disk many times without damage. It is why we don't worry much
about head crashes anymore. Every time you power the disk up or down it
experiences a "head-crash." Still, if the head remained in contact
with the disk for a long time it would eventually damage the disk.
Of perhaps greater consideration is temperature and cooling. In the
case of convection (forced air) cooling, as air density decreases you
need to move a greater volume of air to achieve the same heat transfer.
This is why equipment designed for very high altitude operation is
designed for conduction cooling. The iPod is designed to cool by
conduction through its case. A laptop is not. A laptop computer at
very high altitude may not be able to move enough air to keep its
processor and/or disk drive cool enough to operate safely.
> I wouldn't take my operating Ipod above 10K feet for any reason unless
> I
> was a real gambler (I am not). Turned off, it is fine to any
> altitude.
I think there is probably some leeway with the altitude but given that
we don't know how much "headroom" Apple built into the iPod your words
are prudent. But I don't think that the unit will fail at 10,001'. I
don't even think it will fail at 12,500'. Mine didn't fail at 17,500.
And if it did, I don't think it will be permanently damaged if you
don't try to keep playing it.
And as I said in my earlier message, your results may vary.
> Your luck may vary,
Seems I lucked out this time, eh?
It would be interesting to find out who's drives they use and then find
the original manufacturer's data on safe operation.
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
+1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator/Battery Switches |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>Comments/Questions: Hi Bob, I'm hoping to use your OVM-14 on my RV7
>electrical system, based in part on your z11 drawing, but I was hoping to
>have two separate switches for the master and alternator field... in your
>diagram on wiring the OVM-14 there is a note that says "Battery and
>alternator should come on and of together". What is the reson for this?
Alternators do not run well without a battery on line. Since the
very earliest days of alternator installations, most light aircraft have
used interlocked battery and alternator switches to insure that the
alternator cannot be left on line without the battery being on also.
Notable exceptions are the Bonanza and Barons where Beech went to
the trouble of making sure that their alternators performed at
minimal standards sans battery. It is my best recommendation that
the alternator/battery controls be wired as depicted in the
Z-figures and that you maintain your battery such that e-bus
loads can be powered for duration of fuel aboard. This approach
will offer system performance and reliability unmatched by any
certified aircraft I'm aware of.
I will invite you to join us on the AeroElectric List
to continue this and similar discussions. It's useful to
share the information with as many folks as possible.
A further benefit can be realized with membership on
the list. There are lots of technically capable folks
on the list who can offer suggestions too. You can
join at . . .
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe/
Thanks!
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: RE: 12V VS. 24V Electrical System. |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
On Aug 6, 2004, at 6:14 PM, Eric M. Jones wrote:
> Increasing the DC voltage results in
> smaller power conductors since delivered Watts is Amps X Volts and the
> size
> of the conductor is a function only of Amperes.
At higher voltages you can also accept greater voltage drop so you can
accept a longer cable run for the same percentage of voltage drop.
This becomes really interesting at higher currents. For instance, if I
have to have a remote battery for starting, I would much rather have a
28V electrical system because I can tolerate greater voltage drop and
still get acceptable performance.
Avionics has something interesting now too. Most modern radios use
"universal" switching power supplies that will work from something like
10V to 32V. If you have a 28V electrical system the buss voltage will
rarely drop below about 15-16V even while cranking the engine. This
means that your avionics can be on and remain on without dropping out.
This is useful for things that have a significant start-up time like
GPS receivers and AHRS.
Personally I fall into the 28V camp myself. In doing a new electrical
system for my CJ6A I plan to stick with 28V. I will have an equalizer
for the two 12V batteries yielding 14V for those devices for which I
can only find in 14V flavors. High-power stuff will be 28V
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
+1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: 11540 Dudkoff |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>Comments/Questions: Hello Bob , I am a RV-6 builder with 19 hr flt time.
>Van's Alternator failed
>ND 18148,ext reg., 35 amp ,no Fan!, with B&G linear regulator.I had a
>blast cooling tube. I still cooked the alternator. I understand the most
>reliable ALT is the two internal fan type. I am improving the cooling
>system by making an external cover on the back of the alternator and force
>the air through the internals. Some research I have done suggest that the
>internal temperature of the electrical components should not exceed 85 deg
>C. Is this correct?
Before you charge off and do a lot of work, are you SURE
the alternator failed due to lack of cooling? Keep in
mind that hundreds of RV's are flying with Van's suggested
alternator. All modern alternators are very robust and
the vast majority should run trouble free for TBO on the
engine. Cooling issues are DESIGNED in . . . if your
alternator died of overheat, and it was installed per
Van's suggestions, then many, MANY alternators are similarly
at-risk for cooking to death. Field experience suggests this
is not so.
What are your system loads on the alternator in cruising
flight? Did you make any changes from Van's recommendations
and/or successful installations already flying that might
account for an installation issue? The LR-3 has been built
in the thousands for over 10 years and experience suggests
that this device is similarly suited to operation in airplanes
without extra ordinary attention to cooling.
Internal temperatures on alternators can exceed 150 degrees
C on windings at full load and minimal cooling. Unless
you can identify a serious deviation from recommended
installation practices, I think it's more likely that
your alternator suffered a random event failure of some
kind. Are you sure that the Van's alternator doesn't have
internal fans? I think ND went to internal fans on all
designs years ago. In any case, it should be very easy
to acquire a 35-40 amp machine that does have such fans.
What size pulley are you running on your alternator. Stock
ND alternators tend to come with relatively small pulleys
which causes them to run fast on a Lycoming installation.
I recommend you stay with the small pulley to keep it cooler
and give better output at idle and taxi RPMs.
I will invite you to join us on the AeroElectric List
to continue this and similar discussions. It's useful to
share the information with as many folks as possible.
A further benefit can be realized with membership on
the list. There are lots of technically capable folks
on the list who can offer suggestions too. You can
join at . . .
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe/
Thanks!
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------
( Knowing about a thing is different than )
( understanding it. One can know a lot )
( and still understand nothing. )
( C.F. Kettering )
--------------------------------------------
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: iPod and altitude |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: rd2@evenlink.com
Brian
>Seems I lucked out this time, eh?
Who knows you might be one of the guys who are always lucky. :)
Not my case - if the specs say "it'll fail at 10K" mine probably would try
desperately failing at 9999 (or earlier).
>It would be interesting to find out who's drives they use and then find
>the original manufacturer's data on safe operation.
Yes, it would. As an extension of this I was wondering: doesn't some
military equipment contain hard drives; probably mil specs are are more air
density demanding; who makes these drives; also, the cabin is probably
pressurized (but drives in mil installations should not rely on that)....
More and more food fer thought.
In the case of playing mp3 the highest _practical_ bandwith would be about
320 kbs uncomressed (in most cases under 180 kbs or VBR, which falls mostly
under 180, produces excellent results, unless it's video-audio). That makes
the necessary read speed less than 320 kbs. Hard drives are capable of tens
(or hundreds) of MB per second, so the software of mp3 players is designed
to awake the drive, read file sections (as much as memory allows) and put
the drive to sleep until the next read. A drive works intermittently being
awake only a fraction of the playing time. In order to damage it one has to
find the moment it's awake and apply g-fources and/or the thin air factor
during that time. If it is someone else's drive the laws of statistical
probabilities may apply; in my case it's usually Murphy's law/s. Ohh..
well....
Rumen
_____________________Original message __________________________
(received from Brian Lloyd; Date: 08:47 AM 8/7/2004
-0400)
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
On Aug 6, 2004, at 6:19 PM, Richard Tasker wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Richard Tasker
> <retasker@optonline.net>
>
> 1. All hard drives breathe. If you disassemble one (not a functioning
> one please) you will find there is a specific section with air holes
> and
> a filter.
> 2. LCDs are filled with a liquid. Liquids do not expand appreciably
> with changes in external air pressure. The LCD will be fine at any
> reasonable altitude.
> 3. The comment about Gs with a hard drive is right on, but the comment
> about "any altitude" is wrong. The other email explanations regarding
> the head "flying" on a film of air are correct - as the air density
> decreases the lift decreases until you have no margin for any Gs and
> you
> have a head crash. A single crash may not destroy anything - depending
> on how "bad" it is. Or it may just damage the magnetic coating so the
> next time it tries to record something there it doesn't work. Or it
> could destroy the head and you end up with a several hundred dollar
> paperweight!
You got all that right. There is one other thing to add: modern disk
drives are designed for the heads to "land" on the medium. In olden
days the magnetic medium was soft. It consisted of iron oxide in a
binder just like magnetic tape. A head touching down on the medium
meant damage to the medium. The disk drives therefore would retract
the heads completely on power-down. I remember one disk drive I worked
on had a set of AA-sized NiCd batteries that would be connected to the
voice-coil actuator on power-fail to force the heads to retract. It
was crude but effective.
Modern drives use a plated metallic medium. It is quite hard and quite
smooth. This allows the heads to land and take-off from the surface of
the disk many times without damage. It is why we don't worry much
about head crashes anymore. Every time you power the disk up or down it
experiences a "head-crash." Still, if the head remained in contact
with the disk for a long time it would eventually damage the disk.
Of perhaps greater consideration is temperature and cooling. In the
case of convection (forced air) cooling, as air density decreases you
need to move a greater volume of air to achieve the same heat transfer.
This is why equipment designed for very high altitude operation is
designed for conduction cooling. The iPod is designed to cool by
conduction through its case. A laptop is not. A laptop computer at
very high altitude may not be able to move enough air to keep its
processor and/or disk drive cool enough to operate safely.
> I wouldn't take my operating Ipod above 10K feet for any reason unless
> I
> was a real gambler (I am not). Turned off, it is fine to any
> altitude.
I think there is probably some leeway with the altitude but given that
we don't know how much "headroom" Apple built into the iPod your words
are prudent. But I don't think that the unit will fail at 10,001'. I
don't even think it will fail at 12,500'. Mine didn't fail at 17,500.
And if it did, I don't think it will be permanently damaged if you
don't try to keep playing it.
And as I said in my earlier message, your results may vary.
> Your luck may vary,
Seems I lucked out this time, eh?
It would be interesting to find out who's drives they use and then find
the original manufacturer's data on safe operation.
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
+1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802
Message 6
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| Subject: | 3-position switch |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: rd2@evenlink.com
I was wondering if anyone could recommend/direct me to a source for an
inexpensive, reliable, certified, small size 3-position switch (all
positions "on") to be used to switch an autopilot between 3 signal sources
(yaw signals from 2 VORs and a GPS). It could be a toggle or (preferably)
rotary switch.
Thanks
Rumen
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: iPod and altitude |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
In a message dated 8/7/04 11:26:51 AM Central Daylight Time,
rd2@evenlink.com writes:
Yes, it would. As an extension of this I was wondering: doesn't some
military equipment contain hard drives; probably mil specs are more air
density demanding; who makes these drives; also, the cabin is probably
pressurized (but drives in mil installations should not rely on that)....
More and more food fer thought.
Good Morning All,
Just a random thought--
Would it be at all practical to place these devices in some sort of
pressurized container?
A small box with a balloon attached should be able to keep it below a 10,000
pressure altitude fairly easily.
If the aircraft has a supercharger, it would be easy to pressurize the box
the same way magnetos are often pressurized.
How much air exchange would need to take place for cooling, etc.?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Airpark LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: 3-position switch |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
In a message dated 8/7/04 11:32:08 AM Central Daylight Time,
rd2@evenlink.com writes:
I was wondering if anyone could recommend/direct me to a source for an
inexpensive, reliable, certified, small size 3-position switch (all
positions "on") to be used to switch an autopilot between 3 signal sources
(yaw signals from 2 VORs and a GPS). It could be a toggle or (preferably)
rotary switch.
Thanks
Rumen
Good Morning Rumen,
Electronics International sells a double pole rotary three position switch
to use to switch between shunts for their loadmeter.
Probably a lot more than what you need, but it is a robust switch. I don't
care for the bulky connectors they use, but I can't see why you couldn't cut
the supplied connectors off and use something less obtrusive.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Airpark LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: iPod and altitude |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
On Aug 7, 2004, at 12:48 PM, BobsV35B@aol.com wrote:
> Yes, it would. As an extension of this I was wondering: doesn't some
> military equipment contain hard drives; probably mil specs are more
> air
> density demanding; who makes these drives; also, the cabin is
> probably
> pressurized (but drives in mil installations should not rely on
> that)....
> More and more food fer thought.
>
>
> Good Morning All,
>
> Just a random thought--
>
> Would it be at all practical to place these devices in some sort of
> pressurized container?
Should work just fine.
>
> A small box with a balloon attached should be able to keep it below a
> 10,000
> pressure altitude fairly easily.
A bicycle tire pump will work too.
> If the aircraft has a supercharger, it would be easy to pressurize the
> box
> the same way magnetos are often pressurized.
That seems like hard work.
> How much air exchange would need to take place for cooling, etc.?
If the box has enough surface area you don't need any airflow.
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
+1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: 3-position switch |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: rd2@evenlink.com
Thanks, Bob
>Electronics International sells a double pole rotary three position switch
>to use to switch between shunts for their loadmeter.
Hmmm... will check this out, but I suspect massiveness if it's designed a
shunt switch. Something similar to the switches of multimeters (but with
only a few positions) might be appropriate. Usually such switches are
designed to be reliable.
Rumen
Message 11
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| Subject: | XCOM 760 now shipping but... |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: RV8ter@aol.com
For those that ordered one already, did they tell you that the "Approvals:
FCC, ACA Pending" has actually occurred? I still see that caveat on their web
site and in their Installation and Users Manual.
Also, does the price of the harness mean the DIY kit or their factory tech
built harness to your individual specs which they also discuss?
do not archive
lucky
Message 12
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| Subject: | iPod and altitude |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" <Larry@BowenAero.com>
XM radio would be easier, IMO
-
Larry Bowen
Larry@BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BobsV35B@aol.com [mailto:BobsV35B@aol.com]
> Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 12:49 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: iPod and altitude
>
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
>
>
> Good Morning All,
>
> Just a random thought--
>
> Would it be at all practical to place these devices in some sort of
> pressurized container?
>
> A small box with a balloon attached should be able to keep it
> below a 10,000
> pressure altitude fairly easily.
>
> If the aircraft has a supercharger, it would be easy to
> pressurize the box
> the same way magnetos are often pressurized.
>
> How much air exchange would need to take place for cooling, etc.?
>
> Happy Skies,
>
> Old Bob
> AKA
> Bob Siegfried
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: 3-position switch |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
In a message dated 8/7/04 12:14:15 PM Central Daylight Time,
rd2@evenlink.com writes:
Hmmm... will check this out, but I suspect massiveness if it's designed a
shunt switch. Something similar to the switches of multimeters (but with
only a few positions) might be appropriate. Usually such switches are
designed to be reliable.
Rumen
Actually, the switch itself is quite small. The shunts are external. It is
about one half inch in diameter and maybe one half to three quarters of an
inch long.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Airpark LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Message 14
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mickey Billings" <mbilli@cox.net>
I sent this once before but wasn't sure it got there.
Does anyone happen to know how the KX 125 interfaces with the Flightcom 403
intercom? I am fairly clear on the 403 but not sure which pins of the KX
125 interfaces with it.
I built the isolated ground system shown on the 403 schematic in order to
take the CD player out put (which normally goes to speakers) to convert the
8 ohm to 600 ohm for head phone use (pins 1, 18, 19). But not being a
educated electronics guy I'm unsure which pins on the King interfaces with
pins 1, 17, 21, 8 on the 403! Because I'm not using any other remote heads,
I think besides the antennas, and power, this will be the only interface.
If anyone has the know how to complete this I would appreciate any help
offered.
Mickey Billings
RV7 N445BH
Message 15
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Franz Fux" <franz@lastfrontierheli.com>
Yes we received it before, but I can not help you
Franz
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Mickey
Billings
Subject: AeroElectric-List: KX125
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mickey Billings" <mbilli@cox.net>
I sent this once before but wasn't sure it got there.
Does anyone happen to know how the KX 125 interfaces with the Flightcom 403
intercom? I am fairly clear on the 403 but not sure which pins of the KX
125 interfaces with it.
I built the isolated ground system shown on the 403 schematic in order to
take the CD player out put (which normally goes to speakers) to convert the
8 ohm to 600 ohm for head phone use (pins 1, 18, 19). But not being a
educated electronics guy I'm unsure which pins on the King interfaces with
pins 1, 17, 21, 8 on the 403! Because I'm not using any other remote heads,
I think besides the antennas, and power, this will be the only interface.
If anyone has the know how to complete this I would appreciate any help
offered.
Mickey Billings
RV7 N445BH
---
---
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: iPod and altitude |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ernest Christley <echristley@nc.rr.com>
bkuc1@tampabay.rr.com wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: bkuc1@tampabay.rr.com
>
>
> More food for thought. Hard drives have to be sealed since the heads ride so
close to the platter(s).
>If there is an air issue with the hard drives that would mean that air has to
enter and escape and with no filter,
>any microscopic dust particle would crash the heads.
A little more food for thought. Completely seal up a hard drive at sea
level. Fly to 17500' and watch it deform and pop.
My son's computer had a Seagate drive die just a few days ago and I took
it apart to show him how it works. The top was an aluminum shell held
on by a strip of aluminum tape. In the center left of what would be the
top was a 1/8th inch hole that was covered on the outside by a plastic
cover. I'm sure there was a filter under the black cover, and there is
also a filter inside the disk that would capture any dust particle as it
spun around inside the case.
Pull a few HD apart. In each one you'll find some way for the air
pressure to equalize.
I don't think it is just that Brian got lucky. This is a complete
guess, but I would think that the iPod would arrange the HD such that
the platters spun vertically. The R/W heads would not be floating above
the discs, but beside them. It doesn't have gravity contributing to a
head crash in that case.
My other guess is that head crashes can't happen with a tail wind.
--
http://www.ernest.isa-geek.org/
"Ignorance is mankinds normal state,
alleviated by information and experience."
Veeduber
Message 17
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| Subject: | RE: iPod and altitude |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James Foerster" <jmfpublic@comcast.net>
Music lovers:
Rather than pressurize the iPod, getting a solid state MP3 player makes more sense.
I saw that 1 GB of compact flash memory was $169 at Best Buy recently, and
prices will only drop.
Of course, if you fly below 10,000 feet most of the time, this is not a consideration.
Jim Foerster, J400, 80% done
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