Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:16 AM - Re: iPod and altitude (Brian Lloyd)
2. 04:48 AM - MP3 vs iPod (RV8ter@aol.com)
3. 05:18 AM - Re: MP3 vs iPod (Dan Brown)
4. 05:43 AM - Re: MP3 vs iPod (RV8ter@aol.com)
5. 07:02 AM - Re: Architecture for 2 batteries and 1 alternator (Ken)
6. 07:27 AM - Re: Architecture for 2 batteries and 1 (Mickey Coggins)
7. 07:53 AM - Re: Low Audio Output (Glen Matejcek)
8. 10:29 AM - Re: MP3 vs iPod (Chris Krieg)
9. 10:34 AM - Re: 12V VS. 24V Electrical System. (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
10. 10:42 AM - Tach transducer (Steve Sampson)
11. 10:43 AM - Re: MP3 vs iPod (James Foerster)
12. 11:42 AM - Re: 3-position switch (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
13. 06:14 PM - Wig Wag help (Charles E. Brame)
14. 07:09 PM - Re: 12V VS. 24V Electrical System. (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
15. 07:14 PM - intermittent ignition on 912S (Joa Harrison)
16. 07:19 PM - Re: Tach transducer (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
17. 08:06 PM - Re: Wig Wag help (Jaye and Scott Jackson)
18. 09:02 PM - Re: Tach transducer (Wayne Berg)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: iPod and altitude |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
On Aug 7, 2004, at 10:08 PM, Ernest Christley wrote:
> I don't think it is just that Brian got lucky. This is a complete
> guess, but I would think that the iPod would arrange the HD such that
> the platters spun vertically. The R/W heads would not be floating
> above
> the discs, but beside them. It doesn't have gravity contributing to a
> head crash in that case.
The heads are loaded by spring pressure which provides a force far
greater than the force due to the weight of the head. Low-mass heads
also reduces the chance of a head crash should the disk be exposed to
shock or vibration.
> My other guess is that head crashes can't happen with a tail wind.
I am sure that you must be right.
ernest-isa-geek.org? I like it!
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
+1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802
Message 2
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: RV8ter@aol.com
what's the difference between the music systems?
In a message dated 8/7/2004 11:06:27 PM Eastern Standard Time,
jmfpublic@comcast.net writes:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James Foerster"
<jmfpublic@comcast.net>
Music lovers:
Rather than pressurize the iPod, getting a solid state MP3 player makes more
sense. I saw that 1 GB of compact flash memory was $169 at Best Buy recently,
and prices will only drop.
Of course, if you fly below 10,000 feet most of the time, this is not a
consideration.
Jim Foerster, J400, 80% done
Message 3
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dan Brown <dan@familybrown.org>
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Hash: SHA1
RV8ter@aol.com wrote:
| what's the difference between the music systems?
The iPod is an MP3 player, but it uses a hard drive to store the music,
hence the concern about altitude and vibration and the rest. Jim was
suggesting a solid-state MP3 player, which uses non-mechanical storage
for the music--which, he correctly observes, avoids the problem
entirely. Of course, a 40 GB solid-state player would be obscenely
expensive... A 1 GB player would store around 15 hours of music; the 40
GB iPod would store (of course) 40 times that.
- --
Dan Brown, KE6MKS, dan@familybrown.org
"Since all the world is but a story, it were well for thee to buy the
more enduring story rather than the story that is less enduring."
~ -- The Judgment of St. Colum Cille
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Message 4
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: RV8ter@aol.com
Flying aside, on terra firme, can the ipod handle the same day to day abuse
the solid state MP3 can? Can you jog with an ipod without it
skipping/crashing/jumping etc?
Does this mean MP3 players can be packaged in much physically smaller &
lighter packages?
I want to use an XM radio. How do you typically wire up an intercom to be
able to switch between two different input sources when I typically only see one
input for music? I don't want to be plugging and unplugging different music
inputs during flight if I can help it.
do not archive
In a message dated 8/8/2004 8:19:03 AM Eastern Standard Time,
dan@familybrown.org writes:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dan Brown <dan@familybrown.org>
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RV8ter@aol.com wrote:
| what's the difference between the music systems?
The iPod is an MP3 player, but it uses a hard drive to store the
music,
hence the concern about altitude and vibration and the rest. Jim was
suggesting a solid-state MP3 player, which uses non-mechanical storage
for the music--which, he correctly observes, avoids the problem
entirely. Of course, a 40 GB solid-state player would be obscenely
expensive... A 1 GB player would store around 15 hours of music; the 40
GB iPod would store (of course) 40 times that.
- --
Dan Brown, KE6MKS, dan@familybrown.org
"Since all the world is but a story, it were well for thee to buy the
more enduring story rather than the story that is less enduring."
~ -- The Judgment of St. Colum Cille
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fMjmjxWTSrGxmcJMv/WIWGI=xCOM
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Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Architecture for 2 batteries and 1 alternator |
on juliet
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
Hi Dennis
The engine diagram seems awfully complicated with those 4 pole switches
that don't seem to do very much. I note that one switch failure can kill
both power sources to the engine whereas separate mechanically ganged
switches might be more reliable and even cheaper. I plan to use the ecu
to drive the oem relay to control the main fuel pump both for safety and
to perhaps eliminate the extra fuel pump switch. Another thought might
be to use a three position main/off/aux switch to eliminate the separate
ignition and fuel pump switches.
I assume you are planning an IFR machine. For a simple VFR machine I
found that all I really had on the main bus was lights and the endurance
bus was pointless for me as there was nothing of significance to put on
it. Although it is unconventional and has not been condoned on this
list, I moved the alternator supply to the other side of the battery
contactor for a number of reasons including load dump concerns.
If you ever lost your main hot bus and switched engine power to the aux
hot bus do you have confidence that the same fault hasn't also killed
the aux bus? (Both batteries discharged)
I'd consider charging the aux battery through a diode so that a fault
in the main system can't take out the aux system. Bob has convinced me
that modern batteries are too reliable to bother just paralleling them
so I'd probably charge the aux battery through a diode and use the aux
battery contactor as a normally open crossfeed contactor (or lose it
altogether for my VFR machine) if I were doing this type of
architecture. Of course the low voltage warning should also give you
lots of notice of a problem but if you rely on that then do you even
need a second battery?
Don't get me wrong - I went to two small alternators and two small
batteries so I do agree with your two battery philosophy, it just
doesn't seem to have gained you much the way it's wired. I am no expert
on this stuff, just throwing out some comments for discussion.
Ken
EJ22
Glaeser, Dennis A wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Glaeser, Dennis A" <dennis.glaeser@eds.com>
>
>Here are the diagrams mentioned in my original post:
>
>http://www.wideopenwest.com/~glaesers/RV7-Electrical-Architecture.html
><http://www.wideopenwest.com/~glaesers/RV7-Electrical-Architecture.html>
>
>Dennis Glaeser
>glaesers@wideopenwest.com -or- dennis.glaeser@eds.com
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Architecture for 2 batteries and 1 |
alternator
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
alternator
>Don't get me wrong - I went to two small alternators and two small
>batteries so I do agree with your two battery philosophy, ...
How did you get two alternators on an EJ22? Do you have any photos?
Thanks,
Mickey
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
Message 7
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| Subject: | RE: Low Audio Output |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Glen Matejcek" <aerobubba@earthlink.net>
Hi Guys-
Thanks for the input (no pun intended). Given our normal operating
envelopes, I wonder what bad thing would happen if we plugged the vent of a
disc type music system. The normal delta P should be around 3.5 psi with a
max around 7 psi, except of course for Bruce Bohannon... Given the size of
the device, I doubt one could cause a catastrophic failure, although the
system might vent out a seam anyway. I would think that this would be less
significant than a head crash.
Of course, the main stream audio designers are probably unaware of our
market and have published specs that cover use in an airliner. They may
well be good to a much higher altitude, especially if one were careful to
use the unit with the disc vertical.
Glen
Message 8
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chris Krieg <rv6a@mac.com>
yes/yes/yes, etc. It was designed for those purposes. It uses a large
very buffer to give you about 10 minutes of skip protection.
On Aug 8, 2004, at 5:42 AM, RV8ter@aol.com wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: RV8ter@aol.com
>
> Can you jog with an ipod without it skipping/crashing/jumping etc?
Message 9
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| Subject: | 12V VS. 24V Electrical System. |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 05:16 PM 8/6/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
>
>I and a few others are members of the 24v faction. Most on the list are
>12v fans. I like 24v because it gives you all the power you need, a 70A
>24v alternator is the equivalent of a 140A 12v one.
>
>Just one example, my entire panel (and it's quite sophisticated) draws
>only 11A. My standby alternator puts out 20A, well within its capacity.
>This eliminates the need to have an endurance (emergency) bus on the
>airplane.
The largest full-up system load I've calculated for a day/nite
vfr/ifr airplane with on electronic ignition and one mag is
27A at 14v for a total power requirement of 378 watts. If one
installs a 14v, 40A machine then this leaves 182 watts (or
13A) of headroom for charging a battery. Assuming a badly discharged
17 a.h. battery, you get it mostly recharged in 80 minutes although
if you have only one engine driven power source . . . it's a bad
idea to lauch into ifr with a discharged battery. Assuming reasonable
maintenance and your engine starts right up, 99% of your launches into
ifr would be without delay due to battery issues.
Unless one plans future expansion of the load requirements for things
like electric heat, then large alternators at any bus voltage is
simply added cost and weight with no return on investment.
I helped a builder put a 100A, 24v system in a LongEz about 15
years ago . . . he NEEDED electric heat in the cabin. He was
day/night vfr with a flight systems load of less than 300
watts. This left 2100 watts after the battery was charged for
toe and seat warmers. He reported good utility for extended
flights at altitude in the summer but even 2100 watts was inadequate
for comfort in the winter time for the same flights. This in spite
of adding about 10 extra pounds on the tail, putting a bubble in the
cowl to clear the alternator and brackets and carrying an extra ordinarily
heavy battery in nose to ballast the alternator installation. I think
his airplane empty weight went up something on the order of 25 pounds
over what could have been installed with a 40A, 14v system and 17 a.h.
battery.
I still get e-mails from builders assembling day/night vfr machines
with very light system loads . . . some as low as 200 watts who
are fixated on having a "big" alternator. Unless you have some
well considered place to use that extra energy, then the costs,
weight penalties and limited usage of cheap automotive hardware
doesn't get you anything . . . it's sort of like putting a 10 hp
engine on a 21" push style lawn mower. You may like the idea
of being able to plow though 4' weeds without breaking a sweat
but if you never do it, what's the gain?
>There must be a reason why every manufacturer of certified airplanes has
>moved to 24v systems.
Commonality of parts. For decades, the smaller aircraft at
Cessna and others used 14v in bottom of the line ships
and 28v in larger aircraft. There was some perverted notion
that 28v was a much superior performing system in most regards.
Wire weight savings was touted but there is so little wire
in a single engine aircraft that smaller wires might account for
a two or three pounds of savings. Alternators and starter motors
were no lighter . . . although you could get twice the power
out of the same size alternator at 24v. Electrically heated
props and windshield de-ice patches were the biggest considered
system drivers to install 28v. 24 volt flooded batteries of
that era were more fragile than their 12 volt cousins. You could
store the same energy in a 12 AH, 24 volt battery as a 24 AH
12 volt battery of the same weight and size. However, the 12 AH
cells did not enjoy engine cranking currents and recharge currents
1/2 that of 14 volt systems. Their service life due to ordinary
operating conditions was poorer than for the more robust, 24 AH
cells of the 12 volt battery.
As the numbers of production airplanes was going down, it became
expedient to "upgrade" the lighter ships at Cessna to 28v
so that the C-210 and C-150 could share the same alternator,
battery, lights, etc. This was a manufacturing and purchasing
issue, not a performance issue.
>Hello Bob,
>
>In Oshkosh I was witnessing a heated debate on the above topic. 12V
>people was arguing availability of cheap components, and the 24V guys
>talked about weight savings and electric ignition functionality at
>engine start.
>
>Any thoughts about the subject from the list??
There are some cranking issues with FADEC and some electronic
ignition systems wherein the manufacturers of such systems have
NOT done the homework to produce a product that lives well
in the real world of airplanes. It may be that some of these
products are less problematic when installed in a 24 v aircraft.
But again, folks are fond of focusing on one aspect of a difference
between 12/24 volts and using that as justification for a choice
that has ramifications far beyond a few pounds weight savings
and/or accommodation of poorly designed hardware.
The automotive world is going to 42 volts in the near future
but this is due to the electrification of many engine driven
systems for past designs. They're anticipating air conditioner
compressors, water pumps, etc having built in, brushless dc
motors. Braking systems may become fully electrical/electronic
with force and smarts built into the hubs of individual wheels, etc.
42 volts is MUCH harder to switch mechanically. I anticipate
that most switching will be handled with arcless, solid state
components.
I have a consulting customer considering electric de-ice
on a new certified ship. He's anticipating using products
from North Coast Technologies. They have a Thermawing de-icing
system you can check out at:
http://airplanedeice.com/thermaWing/
Their present offering runs off a custom 60v, 100A alternator
to produce enough total energy to handle both flight surfaces
and propeller de-ice energy requirements. I spoke with these
folks at OSH and will be working with them to develop a still
larger system that runs from a 208 volt, three-phase, wild
frequency AC system produced by 12 to 18 kilowatt alternators
on each engine. Again, we see a valid driver for consideration
of higher voltage systems . . . mostly to produce HEAT.
In a nutshell folks, be cautious about making the 28/14 volt
decision based on popular myth, and hangar legends. In particular,
be wary of sage ol' pilots and mechanics who criticize your decision
when their own opinions are not well founded in the physics and
economics of small aircraft fabrication and ownership. Just
because it made LOTS of sense on a B-29, B-52 and B-707 doesn't
mean it makes sense on your RV-7.
There ARE some really good reasons to up your system voltage
and take the economic and design hits for doing it. However, I'll
suggest that only a small number of OBAM aircraft under construction fall
in this category. Aside from systems that NEED the flight
operations energy offered by 24 volt systems driving electric heat
and/or accommodating lousy engine accessories, I'll have to
suggest the overall performance and cost of ownership for 14 is
better than for 28 volt. So, if you're leaning toward 28v for some
reason, lets talk about it here on the list. Make your decision
based on every applicable simple-idea we can identify that's
applicable to your task.
Bob . . .
Message 10
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21@london.edu>
I am installing a Grand Rapids 400 engine monitor. The tach signal come in
one of two ways, either off the mag leads or from a transducer plugged into
the location on a Lycoming where a mechanical tach fits.
QUESTION Anyone know of a transducer that will fit in the Lycoming and give
me a signal? An Aircraft Spruce part number would be ideal.
(I have asked Grand Rapids this question twice now over 10 days but they
seem to be having an extended lunch break!) I prefer the idea of using the
port, since I would only have to buy a cover plate otherwise and switch
signal source when checking the mags.
Thanks, Steve
RV9a #90360
---
Message 11
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James Foerster" <jmfpublic@comcast.net>
RV8tor asked:
"I want to use an XM radio. How do you typically wire up an intercom to be
able to switch between two different input sources when I typically only see one
input for music? I don't want to be plugging and unplugging different music
inputs during flight if I can help it."
You will need to wire in a single pole, double throw switch to select one of the
two inputs to your audio panel. Or, you might be able to just connect both
the MP3 player and the XM radio to the audio input of the intercom through 600
ohm resistors in series with the output of each. Then, you use the power switch
on the MP3 player to turn it on and off, and the mute or power switch on the
XM radio to do the same.
"Flying aside, on terra firme, can the ipod handle the same day to day abuse
the solid state MP3 can? Can you jog with an ipod without it
skipping/crashing/jumping etc?"
I have no personal experience with iPod, but I believe that you can jog with it.
The solid state MP3 player is much more robust, however.
"Does this mean MP3 players can be packaged in much physically smaller &
lighter packages?"
Yes. Look up reviews, with pictures, in PC Magazine etc.
Jim Foerster, J400...
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: 3-position switch |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <rnuckolls@aeroelectric.com>
At 12:53 PM 8/7/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
>
>
>In a message dated 8/7/04 11:32:08 AM Central Daylight Time,
>rd2@evenlink.com writes:
>
>I was wondering if anyone could recommend/direct me to a source for an
>inexpensive, reliable, certified, small size 3-position switch (all
>positions "on") to be used to switch an autopilot between 3 signal sources
>(yaw signals from 2 VORs and a GPS). It could be a toggle or (preferably)
>rotary switch.
>Thanks
>Rumen
That's a tall order of mutually exclusive requirements. If your
heart is set on rotary switching, I'd recommend a Grayhill, totally
enclosed switch like the 56 series which can be found at Digikey's
catalog page http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T042/1044.pdf
See 56D36-01-2-AJN in lower left corner of page.
My personal preference would be a 4 pole, progressive transfer,
three position toggle which can be wired to provide double-pole,
three position operation as described in Figure 11-16 of the
'Connection (except you have two poles of circuit instead of
one). A good switch for this task is a ITT-Cannon/CK 7411SYZQE
which you can also find in Digikey's catalog at:
http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T042/1005.pdf
It's in the top group of switches, lower right hand corner of
top box.
There's no such thing as a "certified switch" . . . both of these
switches have been used at one time or another on certified
aircraft.
Bob . . .
---
Message 13
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Charles E. Brame" <charleyb@earthlink.net>
I've wired up my landing lights via Bob's Wig Wag Scheme - Single Switch
-Single Power Source. I've checked and double checked the wiring, but
the Wig Wag won't work. I get both landing lights on steady with either
of the switch "On" positions.
At one point, I did have the 14v power input and the right landing light
output pins switched on the flasher. Could that have welded the flasher
shut?
I'm only getting 12.8 volts to the diode (battery ops only.) Can low
voltage prevent the wig wag flasher from working?
Charlie Brame
RV-6A N11CB
San Antonio
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: 12V VS. 24V Electrical System. |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
In a message dated 08/08/2004 11:35:13 AM Central Standard Time,
bob.nuckolls@cox.net writes:
Wire weight savings was touted but there is so little wire
in a single engine aircraft that smaller wires might account for
a two or three pounds of savings.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Another consideration: well over half the wire in my RV is 22 ga., the
smallest wire recommended for routine wiring tasks due to mechanical
considerations. Even if 24v would ALLOW smaller wire, I don't think I'd use it
for this
reason alone, therefore weight savings is much less a consideration, even with
the fat wires going on a 24v diet...........
From The PossumWorks in TN
Mark Phillips
Message 15
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| Subject: | intermittent ignition on 912S |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Joa Harrison <flyasuperseven@yahoo.com>
For the first time I noticed an intermittent ignition issue with my Rotax 912S.
The right ignition controller cut out several times when doing a "mag" check
(on the ground of course). I couldn't get it to duplicate again since though.
I carefully checked my wiring and also used an ohmmeter to check continuity to
see if there was a short causing that side to cut out. No joy.
Perhaps a problem with the starter switch (ACS unit)?
Anybody else with experience with this ignition and possibly some suggestions?
Thanks folks!
Joa
"who just *hates* intermittent electrical issues"
---------------------------------
Y! Messenger - Communicate in real time. Download now.
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Tach transducer |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
In a message dated 08/08/2004 11:43:07 AM Central Standard Time,
SSampson.SLN21@london.edu writes:
I am installing a Grand Rapids 400 engine monitor. The tach signal come in
one of two ways, either off the mag leads or from a transducer plugged into
the location on a Lycoming where a mechanical tach fits.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I'm using an EIS monitor (4000) on my RV using the mag lead for tach- seems
awful accurate and at mag check it's easy to hear the relative difference
between engine speed with either mag off. I did it this way for simplicity and
because I'm cheap! 8-)
Oh by the way- GREAT instrument- glad I got one.
Just me opining- and you've heard about the relative value of opining and
openings, I'm sure...
Mark
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Wig Wag help |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jaye and Scott Jackson" <jayeandscott@telus.net>
First thing comes to mind is a problem I had wiring up my 6 as per Bob's
manual: the switches' terminals didn't necessarily work as per the drawings.
Had to use an ohmmeter, a good, hard look at how the switch was supposed to
work in the drawings, and I think I scratched out about half my remaining
hair.
It all worked out in the end.
Bob does alude to the fact that some of the switches he supplies have the
terminals numbered differently than what he spec'd in the drawings.
Scott in VAncouver
RV-6
rebuilding after noseover
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles E. Brame" <charleyb@earthlink.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Wig Wag help
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Charles E. Brame"
<charleyb@earthlink.net>
>
> I've wired up my landing lights via Bob's Wig Wag Scheme - Single Switch
> -Single Power Source. I've checked and double checked the wiring, but
> the Wig Wag won't work. I get both landing lights on steady with either
> of the switch "On" positions.
>
> At one point, I did have the 14v power input and the right landing light
> output pins switched on the flasher. Could that have welded the flasher
> shut?
>
> I'm only getting 12.8 volts to the diode (battery ops only.) Can low
> voltage prevent the wig wag flasher from working?
>
> Charlie Brame
> RV-6A N11CB
> San Antonio
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Tach transducer |
Seal-Send-Time: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 21:02:44 -0700
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Wayne Berg" <wfberg@msn.com>
Try Van's, they have one for their tach
----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Sampson<mailto:SSampson.SLN21@london.edu>
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com<mailto:aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2004 10:44 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Tach transducer
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21@london.edu<mailto:SSampson.SLN21@london.edu>>
I am installing a Grand Rapids 400 engine monitor. The tach signal come in
one of two ways, either off the mag leads or from a transducer plugged into
the location on a Lycoming where a mechanical tach fits.
QUESTION Anyone know of a transducer that will fit in the Lycoming and give
me a signal? An Aircraft Spruce part number would be ideal.
(I have asked Grand Rapids this question twice now over 10 days but they
seem to be having an extended lunch break!) I prefer the idea of using the
port, since I would only have to buy a cover plate otherwise and switch
signal source when checking the mags.
Thanks, Steve
RV9a #90360
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