Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:10 AM - Listening to a knock sensor (John Slade)
2. 05:18 AM - Re: FW: [SoCAL-RVlist] Fw: [lycoming] New Electronic (Harley)
3. 08:42 AM - Re: Firewall Penetration (John Schroeder)
4. 08:43 AM - Strobe noise (Mark Sherman)
5. 08:58 AM - Re: Listening to a knock sensor (Eric M. Jones)
6. 09:54 AM - Thanks for Switch Reply (Dennis Johnson)
7. 10:24 AM - Re: Firewall Penetration (Terry Watson)
8. 10:55 AM - Re: Jig for wiring a 25 pin D-Sub connector (Richard V. Reynolds)
9. 01:50 PM - Re: Thanks for Switch Reply (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
10. 02:00 PM - Re: Strobe noise (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
11. 02:08 PM - Re: New Electronic Ignition System and Supplier (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
12. 02:29 PM - Electronic tach hookup (Tom Butler)
13. 02:37 PM - Re: Re: Listening to a knock sensor (John Slade)
14. 03:07 PM - Re: Electronic tach hookup 0.7 RCVD_BY_IP Received by mail server with no name (cgalley)
15. 04:03 PM - Starting Power (David Schaefer)
16. 04:38 PM - FW: [SoCAL-RVlist] Re: Fw: [lycoming] New Electronic Ignition System and Supplier (DonVS)
17. 09:48 PM - Re: Listening to a knock sensor (John D. Heath)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Listening to a knock sensor |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Slade" <sladerj@bellsouth.net>
I'd like to have the option to listen to my knock sensor over the intercom.
I understand that a knock sensor is basically a condenser mike that's
attached to the engine.
I recently bought a CK154 amplifier from http://canakit.com which has the
following specs:
Based on two TBA810 Integrated Circuits
Input sensitivity: 100mV / 47K Ohm
Output power: 2 x 7W Max. / 4 Ohm
Frequency response: 40Hz to 18KHz (-3dB)
I have a mono intercom so I only need one channel for now to amplify my
Walkman CD player.
Could I use the other channel to for the knock sensor input?
I see that canakit also have a choice of microphone amplifiers. Would I be
better off with one of these? I suppose another option would be to feed it
to one of the passenger mike inputs in the intercom, but I'd like a volume
control.
Any thoughts?
John Slade
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: FW: [SoCAL-RVlist] Fw: [lycoming] New Electronic |
Ignition System and Supplier
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Harley <harley@agelesswings.com>
Bob,
I'm interested in your opinion on these E-Mag magneto replacements (
http://emagair.com/ ) as well...getting ready to put the Lyc O-235
engine in my Long EZ, and these would sure make for an easier/cleaner
installation...need to replace or repair my existing mags anyway...was
thinking of one of the other EI products (such as Lightspeed)...but
these are "cheaper" and a lot less time wiring and installing.
Harley Dixon
DonVS wrote:
> <>Bob,
> Could you check on this device and comment? I am just about to order my
> engine and am looking for input on ignitions. Thanks. Don
>
> http://emagair.com
>
> This may be yet-another-EI, but I do like that the "brain" and coil(s) are
> self-contained. It doesn't seem to get much easier to set up.
>
> They even have a self-powered setup...best of both worlds?
> http://emagair.com/P-MAGII.htm
>
> )_( Dan
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Firewall Penetration |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder" <jschroeder@perigee.net>
Bob - Any status on this project?
Thanks, John
>
> I'm working on a source for a heavy (.050") stainless
> weldment in sizes 1/2", 3/4" and 1" in right angle and
> straight versions. . . should know more after first of
> the year.
>
> Bob . . .
>> I would like to use something like your RAC stainless steel flanged
>> elbow fitting for firewall penetration of wires in my GlaStar.
>> Searches of the internet and marine hardware stores has not turned up
>> anything equivalent.
Message 4
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mark Sherman <msherman95632@yahoo.com>
Bob.
I used another source (external battery) for the power
and the noise went away. It is only in the radio not
the intercom. All audio grounds are routed to one
connection on inside firewall. A components have a
separate ground, I didn't use an airframe ground for
anything. All grounds terminate at the ground block
on firewall.
After my original post I have measured the draw of the
radio and in the on mode it draws about 1.5 amps, in
transmit it draws about 3 amps. The manual calls for
a 10 amp fuse, I thought the draw would be much
larger.
Never the less, Radio Shack has discontinued the
270-030 filter choke. They only offer new electronic
versions, don't know if these will work the same or
not. I would like to confirm that the electronic type
will work or have part numbers for the choke and
capacitor from another vendor.
I also have another issue with my Grand Rapids EIS
Hall effect amp meter. When I transmit on the comm
radio it reads a draw of 50 amps. I know this isn't
actual because it would have smoked the 10 amp fuse
and the wires. I will take this up with them on
Monday.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Mark S.
CH701/Rotax 912ULS
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mark
Sherman
><msherman95632@yahoo.com>
>
>Good afternoon all.
>
>I am having a problem with strobe noise in the
>headsets. I have searched the archives and
tried all
>the fixes. Everything wired per AeroElectric
>Connection.
>
>I have decided to install a choke filter, but
the one
>described in Bob's notes will only handle 2.0
>continuous amps. I need at least 8 amps for
the
>ValCom 760 I'm using.
>
>Can anyone recommend the size, part numbers and
>supplier for parts to handle the 8 amps?
What tests have you run to demonstrate to
yourself that
the noise is coming in through the +14v
supply lead
to the ValCom radio? 8A seems pretty big for
the current draw on this radio. Where does
that
number come from? Have you measured it
yourself
to confirm?
Bob . . .
__________________________________
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Listening to a knock sensor |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Slade"
<sladerj@bellsouth.net>
>I'd like to have the option to listen to my knock sensor over the intercom.
>I understand that a knock sensor is basically a condenser mike that's
>attached to the engine. Any thoughts?
>John Slade
John,
A knock sensor is a piezo-electric pick-up (not a microphone) that detects
the sharper (higher voltage) pulse that engine knock generates. When the
computer detects a knock it modifies the fuel mix, etc to prevent it.
It is highly doubtful if you would be happy listening to this cacophony over
the intercom.
([--time machine view--] Dear Bob, I purchased a homebuilt aircraft and
somebody apparently wired a knock sensor to the intercom! It's driving me
crazy. How can I remove it?)
Myself; I prefer listening to the slowly twisting techno-tribal segues of
Raoul Valve.
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
Phone (508) 764-2072
Email: emjones@charter.net
Message 6
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| Subject: | Thanks for Switch Reply |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dennis Johnson" <pinetownd@volcano.net>
>
> Time: 08:18:41 AM PST US
> From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <rnuckolls@aeroelectric.com>
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Question about Switches
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <rnuckolls@aeroelectric.com>
>
> At 08:36 PM 8/12/2004 -0700, you wrote:
>
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dennis Johnson"
> ><pinetownd@volcano.net>
> >
> >Hi Bob,
> >
> >In a recent reply about switches, you said:
> >
> > My personal preference would be a 4 pole, progressive transfer,
> > three position toggle which can be wired to provide double-pole,
> > three position operation as described in Figure 11-16 of the
> > 'Connection (except you have two poles of circuit instead of
> > one). A good switch for this task is a ITT-Cannon/CK 7411SYZQE
> > which you can also find in Digikey's catalog at:
> >
> > http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T042/1005.pdf
> >
> >My question is how could you tell just by looking at the info in the
> >catalog that it is a progressive transfer switch? Are all 4 pole, three
> >position, switches progressive transfer? Unless a switch comes with your
> >standardized numbering system, I'm lost.
>
>
> Check out Chapter 11 on switches, specifically table 11-1 where
> I describe a convention for describing the action of toggle switches.
> The convention is a little different in the digikey listing but
> still obvious. A 2-10 option is cited as double pole, three position,
> on-on-on. The middle "on" implies the progressive transfer action as
> opposed to a synchronous transfer switch like a 2-7 where the description
> is on-off-on. Compare the 2-10 description with the functionality
> described in the switch listing in the Digikey catalog for a 7411
> switch.
>
> Digikey does their spring loaded positions a little different. I
> use parens around the momentary positions like for a 2-50 switch
> having on-on-(on) operation. This same action in a miniature C&K
> 7413 switch is described as on-on-mom.
>
> Does this help?
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> ---
Hi Bob,
Yes, that's a big help, thanks! At the risk of beating this subject to death,
would the ITT-Cannon/CK 7411SYZQE switch you mention above be functionally like
two 2-10 switches attached side-by-side with a single toggle handle? (The 7411SYZQE
switch is 4 pole, double throw while the 2-10 switch is 2 pole, double
throw.) If the answer is yes, then with your help I think I've cracked the
code!
Thanks,
Dennis Johnson
Lancair Legacy 15%
Message 7
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| Subject: | Firewall Penetration |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" <terry@tcwatson.com>
Try this link: http://www.epm-avcorp.com/tubeseal.html
They make high quality stainless penetrations and ship them along with a bit
of firesleeve and firestop putty. It seemed a little pricey, but I think it
does the job well. I would have been better off buying the larger size.
Terry
RV-8A finishing
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of John
Schroeder
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Firewall Penetration
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder"
<jschroeder@perigee.net>
Bob - Any status on this project?
Thanks, John
>
> I'm working on a source for a heavy (.050") stainless
> weldment in sizes 1/2", 3/4" and 1" in right angle and
> straight versions. . . should know more after first of
> the year.
>
> Bob . . .
>> I would like to use something like your RAC stainless steel flanged
>> elbow fitting for firewall penetration of wires in my GlaStar.
>> Searches of the internet and marine hardware stores has not turned up
>> anything equivalent.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Jig for wiring a 25 pin D-Sub connector |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Richard V. Reynolds" <rvreynolds@macs.net>
To wire the Stick switches, I used a Belkin 156462 Pro Series 6 ft PC Monitor
VGA/SVGA cable, High Density DB15 Male/Male. I cut the cable in half and wired
both sticks switches. You should be able to find a mating DB15 Female/Female
cable to continue your wiring or use a DB15 female connector with solder cups
(uhg!).
Richard Reynolds, Norfolk, VA, RV-6A flying
rd2@evenlink.com wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: rd2@evenlink.com
>
> Richard, can you point me to the URL of these prewired connectors?
> Thanks
> Rumen
>
> _____________________Original message __________________________
> (received from Richard V. Reynolds; Date: 04:45 AM
> 8/10/2004 -0400)
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Richard V. Reynolds"
> <rvreynolds@macs.net>
>
> Neil,
>
> Go to the avionics wiring section of CompUSA and get a computer cable with the
> correct number of pins and male/female connectors. Cut the cable in half, use
> one end for the stick and the other to connect to your system
>
> Be careful, on some cables, not all the pins are wired. The small wires
> (usually
> 26 AWG) are just right for connecting to the stick switches.
>
> Richard Reynolds, Norfolk, VA, RV-6A flying
>
> .........................
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Thanks for Switch Reply |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <rnuckolls@aeroelectric.com>
>
>
>Hi Bob,
>
>Yes, that's a big help, thanks! At the risk of beating this subject to
>death, would the ITT-Cannon/CK 7411SYZQE switch you mention above be
>functionally like two 2-10 switches attached side-by-side with a single
>toggle handle? (The 7411SYZQE switch is 4 pole, double throw while the
>2-10 switch is 2 pole, double throw.) If the answer is yes, then with
>your help I think I've cracked the code!
>
>Thanks,
>Dennis Johnson
>Lancair Legacy 15%
You got it. The 4-pole version would be a 4-10 in legacy Honeywell
parlance. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Switches/tl_series.pdf
in particular the progressive transfer switching diagrams on
page 123 and then the 3-position order guide on page 125.
Note that the 4TL1-10 is a 2x version of the 2TL1-10 cited
higher in the chart.
Bob . . .
---
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Strobe noise |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <rnuckolls@aeroelectric.com>
At 08:43 AM 8/15/2004 -0700, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mark Sherman
><msherman95632@yahoo.com>
>
>Bob.
>
>I used another source (external battery) for the power
>and the noise went away. It is only in the radio not
>the intercom. All audio grounds are routed to one
>connection on inside firewall. A components have a
>separate ground, I didn't use an airframe ground for
>anything. All grounds terminate at the ground block
>on firewall.
good fabrication policy, good detective work.
>After my original post I have measured the draw of the
>radio and in the on mode it draws about 1.5 amps, in
>transmit it draws about 3 amps. The manual calls for
>a 10 amp fuse, I thought the draw would be much
>larger.
aha! amazing what a little time and effort will
do in terms of deducing the REAL numbers for a load
analysis. I am mystified as to why manufacturers
make such outlandish statements/recommendations in
their published literature. It doesn't help anybody
to publish "conservative" or "better-safe-than-sorry"
numbers. we're all grown ups here and it's best to
have good data.
>Never the less, Radio Shack has discontinued the
>270-030 filter choke. They only offer new electronic
>versions, don't know if these will work the same or
>not. I would like to confirm that the electronic type
>will work or have part numbers for the choke and
>capacitor from another vendor.
I've not be able to locate a replacement
for the original part. Go ahead and try other
filters. do your own detective work to see how
much voltage drop you get thorough the filter.
Measure input and output voltages during transmit
and see what you get. then see how well it takes
care of your noise problem and report back to us.
>I also have another issue with my Grand Rapids EIS
>Hall effect amp meter. When I transmit on the comm
>radio it reads a draw of 50 amps. I know this isn't
>actual because it would have smoked the 10 amp fuse
>and the wires. I will take this up with them on
>Monday.
sounds like an RF interference problem. there's
no real good excuse for this. i'll be interested
in hearing what they have to say about it.
>Any help would be greatly appreciated.
if you find that an alternative part works and
has acceptable voltage drop, then we are indebted to
you for doing the legwork to find and verify a
suitable replacement. I see a 270-051
and 270-055 filter in the current website offerings
by Radio Shack. it would be useful to know about either
one or both of these products as they pertain to
your situation.
Bob . . .
---
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: New Electronic Ignition System and Supplier |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <rnuckolls@aeroelectric.com>
At 08:18 AM 8/15/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Harley <harley@agelesswings.com>
>
>Bob,
>
>I'm interested in your opinion on these E-Mag magneto replacements (
>http://emagair.com/ ) as well...getting ready to put the Lyc O-235
>engine in my Long EZ, and these would sure make for an easier/cleaner
>installation...need to replace or repair my existing mags anyway...was
>thinking of one of the other EI products (such as Lightspeed)...but
>these are "cheaper" and a lot less time wiring and installing.
>
>Harley Dixon
Your note was the first time I'd heard of these folks. Their
hardware looks good and the marketing pitch is relatively free
of hyperbole. I think there's a high order of probability that
their product delivers what it promises. I'd sure give it
a try . . .
Bob . . .
---
Message 12
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| Subject: | Electronic tach hookup |
0.7 RCVD_BY_IP Received by mail server with no name
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Tom Butler <tabranch@yahoo.com>
Does anyone have experience interfacing Lasar ignition to a U.M.A.
tach? My tach reads erratically and seems to go between the correct rpm
and twice that number. Both the tach and EI are 2 pulses per revolution.
Thanks,
Tom
N801TB
CH801 100% but no 1st flight.
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Listening to a knock sensor |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Slade" <sladerj@bellsouth.net>
> A knock sensor is a piezo-electric pick-up (not a microphone) that detects
> the sharper (higher voltage) pulse that engine knock generates. When the
> computer detects a knock it modifies the fuel mix, etc to prevent it.
Here's an article from someone that did this :
http://home.netcom.com/~bsundahl/knock/listen/listen.htm
> It is highly doubtful if you would be happy listening to this
> cacophony over the intercom.
I'm told that the race guys do it this way when testing on a dyno. This is
more for testing to find the limits rather than ongoing usage. Apparently
you can hear the onset of detonation if you approach it slowly. Best power
is just short of detonation.
> ([--time machine view--] Dear Bob, I purchased a homebuilt aircraft and
> somebody apparently wired a knock sensor to the intercom! It's driving me
> crazy. How can I remove it?)
Answer - turn down the volume on the knock sensor input.
> Myself; I prefer listening to the slowly twisting techno-tribal segues of
> Raoul Valve.
Haven't you heard the phrase "It's music to my ears". ? :)
Regards,
John
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Electronic tach hookup 0.7 RCVD_BY_IP |
Received by mail server with no name
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "cgalley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
A friend was having problems with his tach output. If I remember right, his
problem was the pickup wire was neatly bundled with the ignition wires and
the tach was getting more info than it could handle. Route the pickup wire
away from the ignition wire I think was his solution.
Cy Galley - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair
Safety Programs Editor - TC
EAA Sport Pilot
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Butler" <tabranch@yahoo.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Electronic tach hookup 0.7 RCVD_BY_IP Received
by mail server with no name
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Tom Butler <tabranch@yahoo.com>
>
> Does anyone have experience interfacing Lasar ignition to a U.M.A.
> tach? My tach reads erratically and seems to go between the correct rpm
> and twice that number. Both the tach and EI are 2 pulses per revolution.
>
> Thanks,
> Tom
> N801TB
> CH801 100% but no 1st flight.
>
>
Message 15
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Schaefer" <dschaefer1@kc.rr.com>
I'm still confused why my 'alternate' buss is being drained during starting,
when it should be completely isolated! The only time the two busses are
tied together is in the event of a failure or either alternator. That said,
the alternate buss should be completely separate and the electronics tied to
that buss unaffected by starting.
Thoughts?
David
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: FW: [SoCAL-RVlist] Re: Fw: [lycoming] New Electronic |
Ignition System and Supplier
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "DonVS" <dsvs@comcast.net>
Bob,
This was what had me worried. I do not know enough to argue with this
engineer. Do you feel that his concerns are valid? Thanks for the input.
Don
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Paisley [mailto:robert@protekperformance.com]
Subject: [SoCAL-RVlist] Re: Fw: [lycoming] New Electronic Ignition
System and Supplier
Some more commentary,
Speaking as an electrical engineer who made a living designing
electronic ignition systems for vehicles, the absolute worst thing
you can do in ignition design is put the coils next to the other
electronics of the system. Coils generate voltages in excess of
30,000 volts, microprocessors run on 5 volt busses, these two types
of devices cannot live in close proximity without serious compromise
of the system. You can look at the deisgn of any current automotive
system. The control electronics are in the passenger cabin, the
coils are in the engine area, with as much metal and space in
between as possible. This Emag system is fundamentally a REALLY bad
idea. Others have tried to bundle components like this before. All
previous products with this type of system architecture have failed
miserably. Personally, I wouldn't consider this type of ignition for
a land vehicle, let alone an airplane.
Robert Paisley
--- In SoCAL-RVlist@yahoogroups.com, Bill Marvel <bmarvel@c...>
wrote:
> I think Gary's comments are very worthwhile as I too have
reservations
> about the EI systems as they currently exist, primarily having to
do
> with reliability and redundancy issues.
Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/SyTolB/TM
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SoCAL-RVlist/
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
SoCAL-RVlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Listening to a knock sensor |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John D. Heath" <alto_q@direcway.com>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Listening to a knock sensor
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones"
> <emjones@charter.net>
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Slade"
> <sladerj@bellsouth.net>
>
>>I understand that a knock sensor is basically a condenser mike that's
>>attached to the engine.
>>John Slade
>
> John,
>
> A knock sensor is a piezo-electric pick-up (not a microphone) that detects
> the sharper (higher voltage) pulse that engine knock generates. When the
> computer detects a knock it modifies the fuel mix, etc to prevent it.
>
>
> Myself; I prefer listening to the slowly twisting techno-tribal segues of
> Raoul Valve.
>
> Regards,
> Eric M. Jones
> www.PerihelionDesign.com
> 113 Brentwood Drive
> Southbridge MA 01550-2705
> Phone (508) 764-2072
> Email: emjones@charter.net
OOPS !!
A knock sensor is a Piezo-Electric devise, that is tuned to the frequency of
the sounds of engine knock, and generates an electrical pulse and sends it
to the (ECU) Electronic Control Unit. Effectively it is a narrow range
microphone. Pieso-Electric devises have the characteristic of generating a
electric pulse when subjected to vibration or physical manipulation.
The Sound it hears is the Piston slamming against the Bore when ignition
timing is advanced too far for the conditions inside the cylinder. The
primary correction made by the ECU is to retard Ignition timing an amount
predetermined by the ECU.
A good example of a Pieso-Electric devise is, at least some charcoal
lighters use them as an ignition source.
John D.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
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