---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 08/15/04: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:10 AM - Listening to a knock sensor (John Slade) 2. 05:18 AM - Re: FW: [SoCAL-RVlist] Fw: [lycoming] New Electronic (Harley) 3. 08:42 AM - Re: Firewall Penetration (John Schroeder) 4. 08:43 AM - Strobe noise (Mark Sherman) 5. 08:58 AM - Re: Listening to a knock sensor (Eric M. Jones) 6. 09:54 AM - Thanks for Switch Reply (Dennis Johnson) 7. 10:24 AM - Re: Firewall Penetration (Terry Watson) 8. 10:55 AM - Re: Jig for wiring a 25 pin D-Sub connector (Richard V. Reynolds) 9. 01:50 PM - Re: Thanks for Switch Reply (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 02:00 PM - Re: Strobe noise (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 11. 02:08 PM - Re: New Electronic Ignition System and Supplier (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 12. 02:29 PM - Electronic tach hookup (Tom Butler) 13. 02:37 PM - Re: Re: Listening to a knock sensor (John Slade) 14. 03:07 PM - Re: Electronic tach hookup 0.7 RCVD_BY_IP Received by mail server with no name (cgalley) 15. 04:03 PM - Starting Power (David Schaefer) 16. 04:38 PM - FW: [SoCAL-RVlist] Re: Fw: [lycoming] New Electronic Ignition System and Supplier (DonVS) 17. 09:48 PM - Re: Listening to a knock sensor (John D. Heath) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:10:17 AM PST US From: "John Slade" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Listening to a knock sensor --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Slade" I'd like to have the option to listen to my knock sensor over the intercom. I understand that a knock sensor is basically a condenser mike that's attached to the engine. I recently bought a CK154 amplifier from http://canakit.com which has the following specs: Based on two TBA810 Integrated Circuits Input sensitivity: 100mV / 47K Ohm Output power: 2 x 7W Max. / 4 Ohm Frequency response: 40Hz to 18KHz (-3dB) I have a mono intercom so I only need one channel for now to amplify my Walkman CD player. Could I use the other channel to for the knock sensor input? I see that canakit also have a choice of microphone amplifiers. Would I be better off with one of these? I suppose another option would be to feed it to one of the passenger mike inputs in the intercom, but I'd like a volume control. Any thoughts? John Slade ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:18:29 AM PST US From: Harley Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: FW: [SoCAL-RVlist] Fw: [lycoming] New Electronic Ignition System and Supplier --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Harley Bob, I'm interested in your opinion on these E-Mag magneto replacements ( http://emagair.com/ ) as well...getting ready to put the Lyc O-235 engine in my Long EZ, and these would sure make for an easier/cleaner installation...need to replace or repair my existing mags anyway...was thinking of one of the other EI products (such as Lightspeed)...but these are "cheaper" and a lot less time wiring and installing. Harley Dixon DonVS wrote: > <>Bob, > Could you check on this device and comment? I am just about to order my > engine and am looking for input on ignitions. Thanks. Don > > http://emagair.com > > This may be yet-another-EI, but I do like that the "brain" and coil(s) are > self-contained. It doesn't seem to get much easier to set up. > > They even have a self-powered setup...best of both worlds? > http://emagair.com/P-MAGII.htm > > )_( Dan ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:42:06 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Firewall Penetration From: "John Schroeder" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder" Bob - Any status on this project? Thanks, John > > I'm working on a source for a heavy (.050") stainless > weldment in sizes 1/2", 3/4" and 1" in right angle and > straight versions. . . should know more after first of > the year. > > Bob . . . >> I would like to use something like your RAC stainless steel flanged >> elbow fitting for firewall penetration of wires in my GlaStar. >> Searches of the internet and marine hardware stores has not turned up >> anything equivalent. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:43:20 AM PST US From: Mark Sherman Subject: AeroElectric-List: Strobe noise --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mark Sherman Bob. I used another source (external battery) for the power and the noise went away. It is only in the radio not the intercom. All audio grounds are routed to one connection on inside firewall. A components have a separate ground, I didn't use an airframe ground for anything. All grounds terminate at the ground block on firewall. After my original post I have measured the draw of the radio and in the on mode it draws about 1.5 amps, in transmit it draws about 3 amps. The manual calls for a 10 amp fuse, I thought the draw would be much larger. Never the less, Radio Shack has discontinued the 270-030 filter choke. They only offer new electronic versions, don't know if these will work the same or not. I would like to confirm that the electronic type will work or have part numbers for the choke and capacitor from another vendor. I also have another issue with my Grand Rapids EIS Hall effect amp meter. When I transmit on the comm radio it reads a draw of 50 amps. I know this isn't actual because it would have smoked the 10 amp fuse and the wires. I will take this up with them on Monday. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Mark S. CH701/Rotax 912ULS >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mark Sherman > > >Good afternoon all. > >I am having a problem with strobe noise in the >headsets. I have searched the archives and tried all >the fixes. Everything wired per AeroElectric >Connection. > >I have decided to install a choke filter, but the one >described in Bob's notes will only handle 2.0 >continuous amps. I need at least 8 amps for the >ValCom 760 I'm using. > >Can anyone recommend the size, part numbers and >supplier for parts to handle the 8 amps? What tests have you run to demonstrate to yourself that the noise is coming in through the +14v supply lead to the ValCom radio? 8A seems pretty big for the current draw on this radio. Where does that number come from? Have you measured it yourself to confirm? Bob . . . __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:58:55 AM PST US From: "Eric M. Jones" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Listening to a knock sensor --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Slade" >I'd like to have the option to listen to my knock sensor over the intercom. >I understand that a knock sensor is basically a condenser mike that's >attached to the engine. Any thoughts? >John Slade John, A knock sensor is a piezo-electric pick-up (not a microphone) that detects the sharper (higher voltage) pulse that engine knock generates. When the computer detects a knock it modifies the fuel mix, etc to prevent it. It is highly doubtful if you would be happy listening to this cacophony over the intercom. ([--time machine view--] Dear Bob, I purchased a homebuilt aircraft and somebody apparently wired a knock sensor to the intercom! It's driving me crazy. How can I remove it?) Myself; I prefer listening to the slowly twisting techno-tribal segues of Raoul Valve. Regards, Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge MA 01550-2705 Phone (508) 764-2072 Email: emjones@charter.net ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:54:31 AM PST US From: "Dennis Johnson" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Thanks for Switch Reply --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dennis Johnson" > > Time: 08:18:41 AM PST US > From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Question about Switches > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > At 08:36 PM 8/12/2004 -0700, you wrote: > > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dennis Johnson" > > > > > >Hi Bob, > > > >In a recent reply about switches, you said: > > > > My personal preference would be a 4 pole, progressive transfer, > > three position toggle which can be wired to provide double-pole, > > three position operation as described in Figure 11-16 of the > > 'Connection (except you have two poles of circuit instead of > > one). A good switch for this task is a ITT-Cannon/CK 7411SYZQE > > which you can also find in Digikey's catalog at: > > > > http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T042/1005.pdf > > > >My question is how could you tell just by looking at the info in the > >catalog that it is a progressive transfer switch? Are all 4 pole, three > >position, switches progressive transfer? Unless a switch comes with your > >standardized numbering system, I'm lost. > > > Check out Chapter 11 on switches, specifically table 11-1 where > I describe a convention for describing the action of toggle switches. > The convention is a little different in the digikey listing but > still obvious. A 2-10 option is cited as double pole, three position, > on-on-on. The middle "on" implies the progressive transfer action as > opposed to a synchronous transfer switch like a 2-7 where the description > is on-off-on. Compare the 2-10 description with the functionality > described in the switch listing in the Digikey catalog for a 7411 > switch. > > Digikey does their spring loaded positions a little different. I > use parens around the momentary positions like for a 2-50 switch > having on-on-(on) operation. This same action in a miniature C&K > 7413 switch is described as on-on-mom. > > Does this help? > > Bob . . . > > > --- Hi Bob, Yes, that's a big help, thanks! At the risk of beating this subject to death, would the ITT-Cannon/CK 7411SYZQE switch you mention above be functionally like two 2-10 switches attached side-by-side with a single toggle handle? (The 7411SYZQE switch is 4 pole, double throw while the 2-10 switch is 2 pole, double throw.) If the answer is yes, then with your help I think I've cracked the code! Thanks, Dennis Johnson Lancair Legacy 15% ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:24:13 AM PST US From: "Terry Watson" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Firewall Penetration --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" Try this link: http://www.epm-avcorp.com/tubeseal.html They make high quality stainless penetrations and ship them along with a bit of firesleeve and firestop putty. It seemed a little pricey, but I think it does the job well. I would have been better off buying the larger size. Terry RV-8A finishing -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of John Schroeder Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Firewall Penetration --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder" Bob - Any status on this project? Thanks, John > > I'm working on a source for a heavy (.050") stainless > weldment in sizes 1/2", 3/4" and 1" in right angle and > straight versions. . . should know more after first of > the year. > > Bob . . . >> I would like to use something like your RAC stainless steel flanged >> elbow fitting for firewall penetration of wires in my GlaStar. >> Searches of the internet and marine hardware stores has not turned up >> anything equivalent. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:55:08 AM PST US From: "Richard V. Reynolds" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Jig for wiring a 25 pin D-Sub connector --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Richard V. Reynolds" To wire the Stick switches, I used a Belkin 156462 Pro Series 6 ft PC Monitor VGA/SVGA cable, High Density DB15 Male/Male. I cut the cable in half and wired both sticks switches. You should be able to find a mating DB15 Female/Female cable to continue your wiring or use a DB15 female connector with solder cups (uhg!). Richard Reynolds, Norfolk, VA, RV-6A flying rd2@evenlink.com wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: rd2@evenlink.com > > Richard, can you point me to the URL of these prewired connectors? > Thanks > Rumen > > _____________________Original message __________________________ > (received from Richard V. Reynolds; Date: 04:45 AM > 8/10/2004 -0400) > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Richard V. Reynolds" > > > Neil, > > Go to the avionics wiring section of CompUSA and get a computer cable with the > correct number of pins and male/female connectors. Cut the cable in half, use > one end for the stick and the other to connect to your system > > Be careful, on some cables, not all the pins are wired. The small wires > (usually > 26 AWG) are just right for connecting to the stick switches. > > Richard Reynolds, Norfolk, VA, RV-6A flying > > ......................... > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:50:51 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Thanks for Switch Reply --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > >Hi Bob, > >Yes, that's a big help, thanks! At the risk of beating this subject to >death, would the ITT-Cannon/CK 7411SYZQE switch you mention above be >functionally like two 2-10 switches attached side-by-side with a single >toggle handle? (The 7411SYZQE switch is 4 pole, double throw while the >2-10 switch is 2 pole, double throw.) If the answer is yes, then with >your help I think I've cracked the code! > >Thanks, >Dennis Johnson >Lancair Legacy 15% You got it. The 4-pole version would be a 4-10 in legacy Honeywell parlance. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Switches/tl_series.pdf in particular the progressive transfer switching diagrams on page 123 and then the 3-position order guide on page 125. Note that the 4TL1-10 is a 2x version of the 2TL1-10 cited higher in the chart. Bob . . . --- ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:00:35 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Strobe noise --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 08:43 AM 8/15/2004 -0700, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mark Sherman > > >Bob. > >I used another source (external battery) for the power >and the noise went away. It is only in the radio not >the intercom. All audio grounds are routed to one >connection on inside firewall. A components have a >separate ground, I didn't use an airframe ground for >anything. All grounds terminate at the ground block >on firewall. good fabrication policy, good detective work. >After my original post I have measured the draw of the >radio and in the on mode it draws about 1.5 amps, in >transmit it draws about 3 amps. The manual calls for >a 10 amp fuse, I thought the draw would be much >larger. aha! amazing what a little time and effort will do in terms of deducing the REAL numbers for a load analysis. I am mystified as to why manufacturers make such outlandish statements/recommendations in their published literature. It doesn't help anybody to publish "conservative" or "better-safe-than-sorry" numbers. we're all grown ups here and it's best to have good data. >Never the less, Radio Shack has discontinued the >270-030 filter choke. They only offer new electronic >versions, don't know if these will work the same or >not. I would like to confirm that the electronic type >will work or have part numbers for the choke and >capacitor from another vendor. I've not be able to locate a replacement for the original part. Go ahead and try other filters. do your own detective work to see how much voltage drop you get thorough the filter. Measure input and output voltages during transmit and see what you get. then see how well it takes care of your noise problem and report back to us. >I also have another issue with my Grand Rapids EIS >Hall effect amp meter. When I transmit on the comm >radio it reads a draw of 50 amps. I know this isn't >actual because it would have smoked the 10 amp fuse >and the wires. I will take this up with them on >Monday. sounds like an RF interference problem. there's no real good excuse for this. i'll be interested in hearing what they have to say about it. >Any help would be greatly appreciated. if you find that an alternative part works and has acceptable voltage drop, then we are indebted to you for doing the legwork to find and verify a suitable replacement. I see a 270-051 and 270-055 filter in the current website offerings by Radio Shack. it would be useful to know about either one or both of these products as they pertain to your situation. Bob . . . --- ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:08:44 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: New Electronic Ignition System and Supplier --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 08:18 AM 8/15/2004 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Harley > >Bob, > >I'm interested in your opinion on these E-Mag magneto replacements ( >http://emagair.com/ ) as well...getting ready to put the Lyc O-235 >engine in my Long EZ, and these would sure make for an easier/cleaner >installation...need to replace or repair my existing mags anyway...was >thinking of one of the other EI products (such as Lightspeed)...but >these are "cheaper" and a lot less time wiring and installing. > >Harley Dixon Your note was the first time I'd heard of these folks. Their hardware looks good and the marketing pitch is relatively free of hyperbole. I think there's a high order of probability that their product delivers what it promises. I'd sure give it a try . . . Bob . . . --- ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:29:35 PM PST US From: Tom Butler Subject: AeroElectric-List: Electronic tach hookup 0.7 RCVD_BY_IP Received by mail server with no name --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Tom Butler Does anyone have experience interfacing Lasar ignition to a U.M.A. tach? My tach reads erratically and seems to go between the correct rpm and twice that number. Both the tach and EI are 2 pulses per revolution. Thanks, Tom N801TB CH801 100% but no 1st flight. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:37:12 PM PST US From: "John Slade" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Listening to a knock sensor --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Slade" > A knock sensor is a piezo-electric pick-up (not a microphone) that detects > the sharper (higher voltage) pulse that engine knock generates. When the > computer detects a knock it modifies the fuel mix, etc to prevent it. Here's an article from someone that did this : http://home.netcom.com/~bsundahl/knock/listen/listen.htm > It is highly doubtful if you would be happy listening to this > cacophony over the intercom. I'm told that the race guys do it this way when testing on a dyno. This is more for testing to find the limits rather than ongoing usage. Apparently you can hear the onset of detonation if you approach it slowly. Best power is just short of detonation. > ([--time machine view--] Dear Bob, I purchased a homebuilt aircraft and > somebody apparently wired a knock sensor to the intercom! It's driving me > crazy. How can I remove it?) Answer - turn down the volume on the knock sensor input. > Myself; I prefer listening to the slowly twisting techno-tribal segues of > Raoul Valve. Haven't you heard the phrase "It's music to my ears". ? :) Regards, John ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:07:02 PM PST US From: "cgalley" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Electronic tach hookup 0.7 RCVD_BY_IP Received by mail server with no name --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "cgalley" A friend was having problems with his tach output. If I remember right, his problem was the pickup wire was neatly bundled with the ignition wires and the tach was getting more info than it could handle. Route the pickup wire away from the ignition wire I think was his solution. Cy Galley - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair Safety Programs Editor - TC EAA Sport Pilot ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Butler" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Electronic tach hookup 0.7 RCVD_BY_IP Received by mail server with no name > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Tom Butler > > Does anyone have experience interfacing Lasar ignition to a U.M.A. > tach? My tach reads erratically and seems to go between the correct rpm > and twice that number. Both the tach and EI are 2 pulses per revolution. > > Thanks, > Tom > N801TB > CH801 100% but no 1st flight. > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 04:03:14 PM PST US From: "David Schaefer" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Starting Power --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Schaefer" I'm still confused why my 'alternate' buss is being drained during starting, when it should be completely isolated! The only time the two busses are tied together is in the event of a failure or either alternator. That said, the alternate buss should be completely separate and the electronics tied to that buss unaffected by starting. Thoughts? David ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 04:38:19 PM PST US From: "DonVS" Subject: AeroElectric-List: FW: [SoCAL-RVlist] Re: Fw: [lycoming] New Electronic Ignition System and Supplier --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "DonVS" Bob, This was what had me worried. I do not know enough to argue with this engineer. Do you feel that his concerns are valid? Thanks for the input. Don -----Original Message----- From: Robert Paisley [mailto:robert@protekperformance.com] Subject: [SoCAL-RVlist] Re: Fw: [lycoming] New Electronic Ignition System and Supplier Some more commentary, Speaking as an electrical engineer who made a living designing electronic ignition systems for vehicles, the absolute worst thing you can do in ignition design is put the coils next to the other electronics of the system. Coils generate voltages in excess of 30,000 volts, microprocessors run on 5 volt busses, these two types of devices cannot live in close proximity without serious compromise of the system. You can look at the deisgn of any current automotive system. The control electronics are in the passenger cabin, the coils are in the engine area, with as much metal and space in between as possible. This Emag system is fundamentally a REALLY bad idea. Others have tried to bundle components like this before. All previous products with this type of system architecture have failed miserably. Personally, I wouldn't consider this type of ignition for a land vehicle, let alone an airplane. Robert Paisley --- In SoCAL-RVlist@yahoogroups.com, Bill Marvel wrote: > I think Gary's comments are very worthwhile as I too have reservations > about the EI systems as they currently exist, primarily having to do > with reliability and redundancy issues. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/SyTolB/TM <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SoCAL-RVlist/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: SoCAL-RVlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:48:07 PM PST US From: "John D. Heath" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Listening to a knock sensor --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John D. Heath" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric M. Jones" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Listening to a knock sensor > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Slade" > > >>I understand that a knock sensor is basically a condenser mike that's >>attached to the engine. >>John Slade > > John, > > A knock sensor is a piezo-electric pick-up (not a microphone) that detects > the sharper (higher voltage) pulse that engine knock generates. When the > computer detects a knock it modifies the fuel mix, etc to prevent it. > > > Myself; I prefer listening to the slowly twisting techno-tribal segues of > Raoul Valve. > > Regards, > Eric M. Jones > www.PerihelionDesign.com > 113 Brentwood Drive > Southbridge MA 01550-2705 > Phone (508) 764-2072 > Email: emjones@charter.net OOPS !! A knock sensor is a Piezo-Electric devise, that is tuned to the frequency of the sounds of engine knock, and generates an electrical pulse and sends it to the (ECU) Electronic Control Unit. Effectively it is a narrow range microphone. Pieso-Electric devises have the characteristic of generating a electric pulse when subjected to vibration or physical manipulation. The Sound it hears is the Piston slamming against the Bore when ignition timing is advanced too far for the conditions inside the cylinder. The primary correction made by the ECU is to retard Ignition timing an amount predetermined by the ECU. A good example of a Pieso-Electric devise is, at least some charcoal lighters use them as an ignition source. John D. DO NOT ARCHIVE