Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:59 AM - Re: Starting Power (Matt Jurotich)
2. 08:14 AM - KA-135 issue (James Redmon)
3. 09:03 AM - Re: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 17 Msgs - (Mark Steitle)
4. 09:27 AM - Re: Starting Power (John Schroeder)
5. 09:34 AM - coil connections (Dan Checkoway)
6. 06:48 PM - Re: Clear Heat Shrink (Records)
7. 06:48 PM - Never the less, Radio Shack has discontinued the (Rex & Jan Shaw)
8. 07:50 PM - Re: Wig Wag help on juliet (Bobby Hester)
9. 09:01 PM - Re: Clear Heat Shrink (jerb)
10. 10:21 PM - Re: Starting Power (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Starting Power |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Matt Jurotich <mjurotich@hst.nasa.gov>
David's problem is real. If you power a device with a second battery to
keep that device working while cranking with a primary battery and the
voltage drops so low that the device resets then there is a real
problem. Let's try to help David diagnose the problem. I wan t to do the
same thing and I assumed Z14 would work. It appears David has a sneak
crossfeed problem. How do we help him?
Matthew M. Jurotich
NASA/Goddard Space Flight Center
Swales contractor to the
JWST ISIM Systems Engineer
m/c : 443
e-mail mail to: <mjurotich@hst.nasa.gov>
phone : 301-286-5919
fax : 301-286-7021
JWST URL: <http://ngst1.gsfc.nasa.gov
Message 2
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James Redmon" <james@berkut13.com>
I know this forum is more about routing elections, but I thought I might
ping the collective with another avionics question. (please recommend other
sources if applicable)
I've found another small anomaly in my system - specifically the KA-135
audio panel...I think. I have two com radios, the KA-135 has the two
mic/radio select buttons and several inputs for aux audio (NAV1, NAV2,
Marker, DME, etc.) - standard stuff, right.
I have the audio from the engine computer (audio alerts) piped into the
KA-135 on one of the 5 aux audio lines. With com1 mic switch pushed, all is
fine...everything loud and clear. Problem: when com2 switch is activated, I
can hear com2 audio just fine but ALL other audio inputs seem to have been
muted considerably. I can still hear them but they ALL are significantly
lower in volume. This also happens to all aux audio when the "both" button
is pressed as well. The result - when I'm monitoring com2, I can barely
hear the audio warnings....not good!
I have checked side tone adjustments on the both coms..no effect. The only
volume adjustment that the KA unit has is for the external speaker...it is
unaffected by the mic select button positions.
You can get a look at my panel here: http://www.berkut13.com/berkut22.htm
Can any of you KA-135 users out there verify that this is normal? Is there
any way to adjust or change this operation mode? There is noting the manual
that describes this behavior.
Thanks all,
James Redmon
Berkut #013 N97TX
http://www.berkut13.com
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 17 Msgs - |
08/15/04
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mark Steitle <msteitle@mail.utexas.edu>
08/15/04
Dale,
Would you happen to know the frequency for the Mazda rotary engine?
Mark S.
> What we (and several manufactures) look for is
>not only a voltage to reach a certain value, but a certain frequency as
>well. Toyota for example lists resonant frequencies of 7,000, 7,100 and
>7,600 Hz depending on which engine is being monitored.
>Dale Alexander
>Velocity 173 Stealth Gullwing
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Starting Power |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder" <jschroeder@perigee.net>
I am also very interested in this problem because we are just starting to
wire our Z-14 system. We also will have #1 battery sized for cranking (no
crossfeed). Most of the avionics are on #2 buss and the engine
instrumentation system (#2 buss) will be on for starting. The #2 battery
will be 17AH.
We do not have any other crossing of juice between #1 & #2 systems except
for crossfeed. First, I would ask if David has any Essential buss or
avionics buss and how it is tied into either system. If it is fed through
both systems via diodes/switches/relays, that is the first place I would
look.
Hope this helps,
John
> David's problem is real. If you power a device with a second battery to
> keep that device working while cranking with a primary battery and the
> voltage drops so low that the device resets then there is a real
> problem. Let's try to help David diagnose the problem.
Message 5
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| Subject: | coil connections |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
Klaus,
I contacted you back in late June with a problem with my Plasma II system.
One coil wasn't firing...I traced the problem to a broken (not fully, but
about to break) wire going to one of the coil fast-on connections. Turns
out I hadn't built enough strain relief into that wiring, and the wire was
getting tugged a bit when the engine shook on startup and shutdown. I
should have seen the potential for that, but it obviously slipped through.
I fixed that problem by re-wiring the coils and adding plenty of strain
relief, and additionally securing the wires so that any strain induced by
engine movement would not be focussed on the coil connections.
Things were fine for about 20 hours of flying after that, and then similar
problems started happening. I had intermittent problems on both
coils...sometimes one coil wouldn't be firing (I used EGTs to determine
which coil), and sometimes both coils wouldn't fire. I couldn't put my
finger on why the problem was occurring. I thought at first I was having
spark plug issues...because I would replace the plugs (they're cheap enough,
why not?), check all the wiring (everything *looked* fine), button the cowl
back up, and it would run great. But eventually, sometimes as soon as an
hour later, a coil problem would resurface.
I have finally figured out what the problem was. See the attached photo.
If it doesn't come through for some reason, the URL to the image is:
http://images.rvproject.com/images/2004/20040811_wear_marks.jpg
Over time, I believe the contact surface between the female fast-on
connectors and the male coil terminals was compromised. Either by physical
wear due to vibration (possibly caused earlier by the wires being allowed to
move), maybe slight oxidation?, heat-related expansion/contraction, possibly
the fast-on connectors "spreading" slightly, and/or by electrical arcing and
pitting, the connections were not making reliable contact. My theory is
that every time I "checked the wiring" when I was having the problem, I must
have wiggled the contacts just enough to reseat them to a new position where
they made contact.
Since discovering this, I "solved" the problem by (a) cleaning and smoothing
the coil terminals with Scotch Brite, and (b) replacing the female fast-on
connectors with higher quality connectors (ones that seem to have higher
clamping force). Since "restoring" these connections I haven't had a single
problem. Things are running perfectly.
Somebody saw the attached photo and my related comments on my web site and
emailed me. He's apparently a guy who worked for Bosch in Germany in the
80s. He saw my comment about how the voltage going through these coil
connectors is so low (12V) that I doubted that they could be arcing. His
response was that on ignition coils, the 12V side of the coils will see
about 300V after the coil fires, and that this is called "BACK EMF." Is
there any truth to this? It would explain the arcing/pitting I've seen if
so.
The only problems I have had with the Plasma II system have been centered
directly on these connections. I've had absolutely no other problems.
Hopefully I've got the issue licked at this point and now know what to look
for going forward...but I'm wondering if there are any different coils out
there that may have a more robust style of connector. I guess you could
argue that fast-on connectors are about as robust as they need to be...I'm
just curious what your thoughts are on this.
Thanks,
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
Message 6
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| Subject: | Clear Heat Shrink |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Records" <records@socal.rr.com>
Thanks to all who replied to my question about Clear Heat Shrink.
David
Europa XS Tri-Gear
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Franz
Fux
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Clear Heat Shrink
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Franz Fux"
<franz@lastfrontierheli.com>
B&C also have it in different sizes,
Franz
RV7
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
Michael D Crowe
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Clear Heat Shrink
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Michael D Crowe"
<rv8a@bellsouth.net>
David,
Try http://www.steinair.com They have it. Nice guy too.
Mike Crowe
RV8A
Does anybody know of a source of clear heat shrink?
Thanks
David
Europa XS Tri-Gear
---
---
Message 7
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| Subject: | Never the less, Radio Shack has discontinued the |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rex & Jan Shaw" <rexjan@bigpond.com>
Hi ! I'm from Australia. I had an electronic business for 30yrs but have
recently retired. I see you are looking for an old fashioned iron core
choke. Well Jaycar Electronics www.Jaycar.com.au I think probably still
sell one. It comes in the car sound section under catalogue No. AA3076. It
has a type no NF-20A on it. I have a new one left from my stock and just
pulled the bottom cover off to check it was indeed an iron core choke and it
is. It is however sold as 20amp car noise filter. The reason being is that
it's in this little plastic case with a circuit board and a 4,700uf 16vw
capacitor. Now if you wanted to use the capacitor I would change that to
63vw. That's simple and cheap, also very wise. The box is 3 1/2" [ inc
mounting lugs ] x 2 1/4" x 1 3/4" If you can't still get one I can sell you
this one. Hope this helps,
Rex.
rexjan@bigpond.com
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Wig Wag help on juliet |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bobby Hester <bhester@hopkinsville.net>
Ken wrote:
> Hi Bobby
> I would indeed appreciate that NAPA number for the wig wag flasher
> whenever it is convenient.
> thanks
> Ken
>
Here is the info for the flasher that B&C sells.
NAPA has them: TRIDON EL13A-2
If they can not find them when they try to look it up, tell them they
are listed under NAPA line code NF
I think I paid about $20
The company that makes them is Trico
Here is link with info about it:
http://www.tricoproducts.com/brochure.cfm?brochure=289&location_id=606
--
Surfing the Web from Hopkinsville, KY
Visit my web site at: http://www.geocities.com/hester-hoptown/RVSite/
RV7A Slowbuild wings-QB Fuse :-)
Message 9
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| Subject: | Clear Heat Shrink |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: jerb <ulflyer@verizon.net>
You can get heat shrink and Ti-Wraps (natural or black) for a reasonible
price from Altex Electronics.
http://www.altex.com/locations.php
jerb
At 06:47 PM 8/17/04 -0700, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Records" <records@socal.rr.com>
>
>Thanks to all who replied to my question about Clear Heat Shrink.
>
>David
>Europa XS Tri-Gear
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Franz
>Fux
>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Clear Heat Shrink
>
>
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Franz Fux"
><franz@lastfrontierheli.com>
>
>B&C also have it in different sizes,
>Franz
>RV7
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
>Michael D Crowe
>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Clear Heat Shrink
>
>
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Michael D Crowe"
><rv8a@bellsouth.net>
>
>David,
>
> Try http://www.steinair.com They have it. Nice guy too.
>
>Mike Crowe
>RV8A
>
>
>Does anybody know of a source of clear heat shrink?
>
>Thanks
>
>David
>Europa XS Tri-Gear
>
>
>---
>
>---
>
>
Message 10
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <rnuckolls@aeroelectric.com>
At 06:37 PM 8/16/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Schaefer"
><dschaefer1@kc.rr.com>
>
>I'm really tired of hearing the 'REAL WORLD' excuse. It's precisely today's
>real world designs that have forced the experimental population to build
>their own much safer systems. The designers of current electrical systems
>(which haven't changed in 50 years) in the spam cans should be held
>accountable for the crap they are designing and forcing on the flying public
>via STC and 'Certified' systems.
Not all that is found in cans is Spam. Over the years there have been
thousands of person hours devoted to deduction, application and education
of the aviation engineering community in the simple-ideas that make
our jobs easier and our customers satisfied. One such effort discussed
here on the list is DO-160, a recommend set of standards which improve
a product's chances of survival in the hard-cold-cruel-world of customer
satisfaction.
One of the things DO-160 suggests is that we should EXPECT the brownout
conditions due to starter motor inrush draw and make some provisions
for graceful recovery if not immunity from such events. I do it, all my
associates here in Wichita don't seem to mind doing it. It's not a matter
of worship at the altar of certification, it's plain common sense
for doing the best we know how to do. I think it's applicable whether
my product gets bolted to an airplane or an automobile.
If I come off as cynical from time-to-time, please know that I'm more
disappointed than anything else. You guys are building the best airplanes
to have ever flown and I'm more than a little unhappy when suppliers
to this market choose to let their offerings fall short of that
which used to be routinely expected of performance in a whole lot
of products, not the least of which is certified airplanes.
>Additionally, I can assure you that my displays are designed for the "real
>world". Greg and company at Grand Rapids didn't fall off a truck yesterday;
>all were previously Boeing engineers and avid RV builders. Grand Rapids
>doesn't care about the starting surge & 're-set' only I do from a WHY SHOULD
>IT HAPPEN IN THE FIRST PLACE question.
>
>I have a primary Concorde battery sized for the starter and a slightly
>smaller Odyssey (600 amp) for my secondary system. Both are allegedly
>isolated from each other when the cross-feed isn't thrown per Z-14 yet the
>secondary electrical system is somehow being drawn down by the starting on
>the primary which should allegedly not happen.
>
>Thanks for the answer; I'll drop off this list & call B&C in the future.
>
>David
I agree, Greg and company are downright intelligent fellows and the
progress they've made is commendable. But they are either ignorant
of or choose to ignore the value offered by standards of performance
suggested in DO-160. Whatever the case, it's an inarguable fact
that this feature in their product does not speak well for their
choices when so many OTHER FOLKS in the aviation community seem
willing and able to rise to the occasion and have been doing
so for over 25 years.
You can shift your focus for assistance to B&C if you wish,
but guess what? They have a copy of DO-160 on the shelf too
and their products are equal to or better than what's suggested
for working in the "real world". If it makes you feel any
better, there are some certified FADEC and electronic ignition
systems that exhibit similar deficiencies in performance while
cranking.
If I were to take a wild guess at the simple-idea which is
driving your experience, I'll suggest that if your ship is
wired EXACTLY like figure Z-14 then you've installed a 2-50
switch which that deliberately closes the crossfeed contactor
during engine cranking.
You need to replace the 2-50 switch with a 1-3 switch wired
to control only the crossfeed contactor . . . and add a separate
pushbutton for starter control. Your problem will go away when
you leave the crossfeed contactor open while cranking the engine.
Alternatively, you can use a 2-5 switch. Wire one pole to
close the crossfeed contactor in the held position and
operate the starter only in the momentary position.
I'm sorry that my comments were mis-understood. It's easy to assume
that EVERYBODY on the list has tracked and understood EVERYTHING
that has been discussed here perhaps a dozen times or more over the
past 3-4 years. If Aerosance and Unison have been
let off the hook by the aviation community -AND- the FAA,
then what the heck . . . maybe I should quit beating up on
Greg and a few others. Once any standards of excellence start
to slide and the consumer base accepts it, perhaps it doesn't
matter any more.
Bob . . .
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