---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 08/23/04: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:13 AM - Re: Re: incident with fuse holder (Werner Schneider) 2. 12:13 AM - Re: Garmin series 400 installation manual ? (Thesee Gilles) 3. 02:10 AM - Re: Re: Architecture for 2 batteries and 1 (Mickey Coggins) 4. 06:58 AM - copper clad aluminum wire (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 08:24 AM - Starting Problem () 6. 09:05 AM - Re: Re: incident with fuse holder (Jaye and Scott Jackson) 7. 09:48 AM - Re: Re: Weight of RG-142 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 10:05 AM - DC-DC converter (Ken Rice) 9. 05:58 PM - Dual VOR/GS Comant Splitter... (Malcolm Thomson) 10. 07:23 PM - Re: DC-DC converter (Eric M. Jones) 11. 07:41 PM - Re: Re: Architecture for 2 batteries and 1 alternator (glaesers) 12. 07:57 PM - strobe control box mount (Margaret and Truman Sager) 13. 08:12 PM - Re: strobe control box mount (DonVS) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:13:19 AM PST US From: "Werner Schneider" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: incident with fuse holder --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Werner Schneider" Hello Bob, thanks a lot for the fast response > >It looks like part of the fuseholder was also melted (black spots on teh > >fuse, would you recommend to replace the whole holder? > > Yes. I've been aware of one other incident like this. In the other case, > the grip tension of the fuse clip was getting damaged by occasional > contact with passenger's foot while ingressing/egressing the airplane. > Your situation may be different but I think the potential root cause > is still the same. > Hm, I do undesrtand, as mechanical damage can get loose contacts, however, my fuseholders are all built in behind the panel on top of the glove box and can not be touched without lowering the panel first or open the glareshield and this fuse was in the 67 hrs my plane has meanhwile just once removed. It will be intersting to see if you can find out anything, I did remove the fuse with a pair of plyers, but as soon as I can replace the block I will send you the two parts! Werner ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:13:40 AM PST US From: Thesee Gilles Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Garmin series 400 installation manual ? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Thesee Gilles ---- Messages dorigine ---- De: Harley Objet: Re: AeroElectric-List: Garmin series 400 installation manual ? > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Harley > > If you can send me the file, John, I can put it on my website for > Gilles > and he can download it from there when he gets a chance. > > Harley Dixon > > www.agelesswings.com Hi Harley and all, Thanks a lot for your help ! Best regards, Gilles ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:10:20 AM PST US From: Mickey Coggins alternator Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Architecture for 2 batteries and 1 alternator --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins alternator Hi Dennis, I agree completely. I'm not planning on using the 4PDT switches. Here's where I am with the fuel pumps: http://www.rv8.ch/article.php?story=20040725003830181 For the ECM, I've got this: http://www.rv8.ch/article.php?story=20040406145425120 I'm not going to have any more single points of failure in my system than possible, and I plan to evaluate and understand the remaining SPOFs as carefully as I can. Mickey >The Eggenfeller Subaru Engine electrical architecture, described in their >on-line installation manual, has a single 4PDT switch which is used for the >engine Master Bus Switch - powers pumps and ignition from either the Main or >Aux battery It also has a single 4PDT Fuel Pump Select switch. (see >http://www.wideopenwest.com/~glaesers/RV7-Electrical-Architecture.html - >bottom figure OR: http://www.jlc.net/~fcs/EAA_IG/Emotor1of7.jpg and >http://www.jlc.net/~fcs/EAA_IG/Emotor2of7.jpg) > >These two switches are both potential single points of failure. If either >fails, lots of silence. On the plus side (?), both Main and Aux positions >of both switches should be tested before each flight, and once in their >normal positions, neither would be moved inflight unless an abnormal >situation occurs (some failure the switch is supposed to solve!) > >So, how risky do you consider this design? Can you suggest a more robust >design? Any alternatives I've dreamed up so far just add complexity and >potential for switch mis-management. > >Or am I just looking for problems that aren't there? I'm not looking to >nit-pick their design, but if there is a more robust solution, I'm certainly >interested (and I suspect others will be as well). > >Thanks, > > Dennis Glaeser -- Mickey Coggins http://www.rv8.ch/ #82007 QB Wings/Fuselage ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:58:37 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: copper clad aluminum wire --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 06:32 PM 8/21/2004 -0700, you wrote: >Hi again Bob, > >Now I am at the stage of installing connectors to the copper clad >aluminum cable & would like some advice. Eric recommends 'dimpling' the >connector in one place with a 3/8" rounded drift & then soldering with >rosin core solder. I have found an electrical distributor house that will >rent me their large crimping tool, so I would think that to be >superior. Do you agree? The "dimpling" procedure is recommended to "close up the joint" such that a minimum of solder is required to complete the installation. I prefer copper wedges as described in the article at http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/big_term.pdf The goal is to achieve a snug fit of terminal on strands of wire before solder is applied. Either crimping or soldering is acceptable. >Any advice on how to guage the 'tightness' of the crimp so as to avoid >cold flow? Don't understand what you mean my "cold flow" . . . makeshift crimping techniques always generate concerns about gas-tightness of the finished joint . . . see: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/CrimpTools/crimptools.html http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/terminal.pdf >Would you recommend solder at all or just leave the joint crimped? Solder flowed into a "snug" joint has a very high probability of gas-tightness and mechanical integrity using ordinary hand tools and readily available materials. Crimping with the PROPER dies offers exactly the same integrity of joint. There's no reason to do both. See http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/rules/review.html >If solder,what type: Rosin Core? Silver solder? Ordinary 60/40 or 63/37 electronic solder is fine. Radio Shack and virtually any electronic supply house will have it. I will invite you to join us on the AeroElectric List to continue this and similar discussions. It's useful to share the information with as many folks as possible. A further benefit can be realized with membership on the list. There are lots of technically capable folks on the list who can offer suggestions too. You can join at . . . http://www.matronics.com/subscribe/ Thanks! Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:24:46 AM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Starting Problem --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: 8/23/2004 Extract from a previous posting by Bob Nuckolls <> Hello Bob, Thanks for your response on this subject. My question is Do only PM motors have this back EMF characteristic during spin-down or is the characteristic also found in wound field motors? If this back EMF characteristic also exists in wound field motors (my starter is from B&C) then I will rewire my starting vibrator to provide its source of electricity from the 12 volt input to the starter contactor coil. Many thanks for your help. OC ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:05:26 AM PST US From: "Jaye and Scott Jackson" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: incident with fuse holder --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jaye and Scott Jackson" Gentlemen: My RV-6 has two fuse blocks, the big one and the smaller one for the e-bus, as per the Connection manual, and the big fuse block has developed exactly the symptoms you mention. Although the smaller fuse block works well, and one side of the larger one still works fine, every fuse on the other side is loose, and the Fast-On tabs are also loose. Pushing in on the fuse stops the tab from moving around, but the fuse block seems to have lost its ability to grip any of the fuses on the one side, in that wiggling the tab causes the appropriate fuse to lift up slightly and lose contact. Hadn't got around to seeing how it's made or what I could do to repair it yet. Scott in VAncouveRV-6, 150 hours ----- Original Message ----- From: "Werner Schneider" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: incident with fuse holder > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Werner Schneider" > > Hello Bob, > > thanks a lot for the fast response > > > >It looks like part of the fuseholder was also melted (black spots on teh > > >fuse, would you recommend to replace the whole holder? > > > > Yes. I've been aware of one other incident like this. In the other case, > > the grip tension of the fuse clip was getting damaged by occasional > > contact with passenger's foot while ingressing/egressing the airplane. > > Your situation may be different but I think the potential root cause > > is still the same. > > > Hm, I do undesrtand, as mechanical damage can get loose contacts, however, > my fuseholders are all built in behind the panel on top of the glove box and > can not be touched without lowering the panel first or open the glareshield > and this fuse was in the 67 hrs my plane has meanhwile just once removed. It > will be intersting to see if you can find out anything, I did remove the > fuse with a pair of plyers, but as soon as I can replace the block I will > send you the two parts! > > Werner > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:48:53 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Weight of RG-142 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Chad, I just noticed that the link I gave you to the cited article was incomplete. You can find the article at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/economics_of_weight_reduction.html At 12:49 PM 5/17/2004 -0400, you wrote: >Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >>... >> Excellent points. I can reinforce those ideas with the following >> anecdotes from my own experience. In 1964 when I was a tech writer >> for Cessna, a number commonly circulated around the >> engineering department suggested "For every pound of emptly weight >> added to our airplanes, it will cost the owner(s) of that airplane >> $100 to buy the pound of stuff, maintain it, and purchase fuel >> to carry it around over the lifetime of the airplane. >>... > >Bob, would you be willing to cut/paste your message/response here ("Weight >of RG-142") into an article on your site? In my builder's log I'm trying >to reference well-reasoned discussions for some decisions I'm making, like >the efforts I'm going through myself to save weight. It would be great to >be able to provide a link to this exact response because it mirrors >exactly what I was looking for, and I think some other people might >benefit from the same thought process. > >Many experimental builders often go for that "one more device" in the >panel, or "maybe just one wire size larger" for every wire, for the same >unfounded reasons as they install TVS devices and other "flooby dust". I >figure if we're going to go through all this effort to build a plane on >the basis of "doing it right," we may as well actually "do it right." I've done as you suggested. The piece was cleaned up a bit and posted at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/economics_of_weight_reduction. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------- ( Experience and common sense cannot be ) ( replaced with policy and procedures. ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ----------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:05:14 AM PST US From: "Ken Rice" Subject: AeroElectric-List: DC-DC converter Seal-Send-Time: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 10:04:56 -0700 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ken Rice" I have a magnetic clutch rated at 24 V and about 2-4 amps that I want to operate in my 14 V system. Is there a simple way to step-up the voltage? ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:58:26 PM PST US From: "Malcolm Thomson" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Dual VOR/GS Comant Splitter... --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Malcolm Thomson" I have a Garmin 430 and an SL30 Radio. The 430 has coax inputs for NAV and G/S. The SL30 has one input for NAV and splits off the G/S signal internally to the radio. My question is it OK to use a dual NAV, G/S splitter (Comant CI 1125) that has two NAV and two G/S outputs? My intent is to run one NAV and one G/S to the 430 and then run the second NAV to the SL30. This will leave one G/S output of the splitter attached to nothing, also will the NAV signal still have the G/S signal in it after it has passed through the splitter/diplexer? Thanks. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:23:40 PM PST US From: "Eric M. Jones" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: DC-DC converter --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ken Rice" >I have a magnetic clutch rated at 24 V and about 2-4 amps that I want to operate >in my 14 V system. Is there a simple way to step-up the voltage? Unencumbered as I am with any knowledge of this beast (by the way...what are the specs?), here is the answer--or guess....... 1) Jeeeeze......can't you get one in 12V? Sell the other on eBay. 2) Sometimes relays and, I assume, clutches actually work well on a range of voltages. Try it. Add a big cap and try it again. The locked current may be very small. 3) You can buy a DC-DC converter that will do the job. Your current requirement is high, but again....try 2). Maybe you can do with a small DC-DC converter if the locked current is small. 4) It is trivial (I leave the exercise for the reader), to charge two capacitors in parallel (12V) and discharge them in series (24V). They make power supplies that do this continuously, but you may not need to. Regards, Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge MA 01550-2705 Phone (508) 764-2072 Email: emjones@charter.net "Doctors are the same as lawyers; the only difference is that lawyers merely rob you, whereas doctors rob you and kill you too." ~ Anton Chekhov ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:41:27 PM PST US From: "glaesers" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Architecture for 2 batteries and 1 alternator --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "glaesers" Hi Mickey, I love it! Same number of switches, no single point of failure, and no $35 4PDT switches! So I added a new diagram to my website (http://www.wideopenwest.com/~glaesers/RV7-Electrical-Architecture.html) It is also much cleaner and simpler to boot. The only connection the other design allows that this one doesn't is running the Main fuel pump from the Aux battery. That can be accomplished by making the Main Fuel pump switch an ON-ON-ON switch hooked up so it is an OFF-Aux Bat-Main Bat switch. I don't think it's worth the effort. If the main battery and the aux pump both fail simultaneously, you've really ticked off the Big Guy. Have you been following the Subaru Engine Yahoo Group lately - regarding the EXPBUS replacement being designed? I can't wait see what it is going to co$t. I'm sure it will work great - some very smart folks are designing it - but will it really do anything that this design doesn't? This electrical design is looking pretty solid now. What other SPOFs are left lurking in the wings? Thanks for your help. Dennis -----Original Message----- From: Mickey Coggins [mailto:mick-matronics@rv8.ch] Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Architecture for 2 batteries and 1 alternator Hi Dennis, I agree completely. I'm not planning on using the 4PDT switches. Here's where I am with the fuel pumps: http://www.rv8.ch/article.php?story=20040725003830181 For the ECM, I've got this: http://www.rv8.ch/article.php?story=20040406145425120 I'm not going to have any more single points of failure in my system than possible, and I plan to evaluate and understand the remaining SPOFs as carefully as I can. Mickey >The Eggenfeller Subaru Engine electrical architecture, described in their >on-line installation manual, has a single 4PDT switch which is used for the >engine Master Bus Switch - powers pumps and ignition from either the Main or >Aux battery It also has a single 4PDT Fuel Pump Select switch. (see >http://www.wideopenwest.com/~glaesers/RV7-Electrical-Architecture.html - >bottom figure OR: http://www.jlc.net/~fcs/EAA_IG/Emotor1of7.jpg and >http://www.jlc.net/~fcs/EAA_IG/Emotor2of7.jpg) > >These two switches are both potential single points of failure. If either >fails, lots of silence. On the plus side (?), both Main and Aux positions >of both switches should be tested before each flight, and once in their >normal positions, neither would be moved inflight unless an abnormal >situation occurs (some failure the switch is supposed to solve!) > >So, how risky do you consider this design? Can you suggest a more robust >design? Any alternatives I've dreamed up so far just add complexity and >potential for switch mis-management. > >Or am I just looking for problems that aren't there? I'm not looking to >nit-pick their design, but if there is a more robust solution, I'm certainly >interested (and I suspect others will be as well). > >Thanks, > > Dennis Glaeser -- Mickey Coggins http://www.rv8.ch/ #82007 QB Wings/Fuselage ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:57:10 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: strobe control box mount From: Margaret and Truman Sager --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Margaret and Truman Sager Any ideas out there on the mounting design for the strobe control box in a RV-7? I cannot find any info in archive. Truman Sager wiring wings on QB ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:12:15 PM PST US From: "DonVS" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: strobe control box mount --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "DonVS" Check out rvproject.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Margaret and Truman Sager Subject: AeroElectric-List: strobe control box mount --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Margaret and Truman Sager Any ideas out there on the mounting design for the strobe control box in a RV-7? I cannot find any info in archive. Truman Sager wiring wings on QB