Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:16 AM - Re: stainless towel bar firewall penetrations (Ken)
2. 05:23 AM - Re: stainless towel bar firewall penetrations on juliet (923te)
3. 08:04 AM - Firewall materiel (Fergus Kyle)
4. 08:26 AM - Re: stainless towel bar firewall (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 08:29 AM - Re: How do you seal firesleeve? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 08:35 AM - Re: stainless towel bar firewall (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 08:42 AM - Re: stainless towel bar firewall (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
8. 08:55 AM - Re: Re: Strobe Head Failure (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 09:02 AM - Re: stainless towel bar firewall (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
10. 09:59 AM - Re: stainless towel bar firewall (Mickey Coggins)
11. 11:38 AM - Re: Re: How do you seal firesleeve? (echristley@nc.rr.com)
12. 01:32 PM - 'Connection is source for "atrocious work" (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
13. 01:54 PM - Greg Richter's email address? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
14. 02:05 PM - Re: Greg Richter's email address? 1.00 (Harley)
15. 02:39 PM - Re: Greg Richter's email address? (Werner Schneider)
16. 02:41 PM - Greg Richter's email address (CozyGirrrl@aol.com)
17. 03:06 PM - Re: Re: How do you seal firesleeve? (Larry Bowen)
18. 06:09 PM - Re: Greg Richter's email address (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
19. 06:12 PM - Re: Greg Richter's email address? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
20. 07:36 PM - Re: Richter's email address? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
21. 08:38 PM - Re: Greg Richter's email address? (James Redmon)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: stainless towel bar firewall penetrations |
on juliet
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
Actually I wouldn't mind hearing a few on list comments. I often see
firewalls that rely on red rtv to be a firestop and I wonder how
effective it is. After all the temperature resistance of the stuff is
only about 550 F which is a long way from the 2000 F firebarrier
requirement. I even wonder if the tube of silicone rtv based fire
barrier that I just purchased from Home Depot is much better. I don't
think the rtv based stuff is the itumescent (sort of expands and
sacrificially boils off I think) kind of fire stop.
FWIW I found 1.5 inch stainless grab bars at Home Depot and 1.25 inch
ones in the local Home Hardware store but I suspect that the painted
steel ones would have been quite acceptable. After all plain steel
should last a lot longer than the firesleeve or the wires.
Ken
David Carter wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Carter" <dcarter@datarecall.net>
>
>I seriously disagree with Ken't post and will be happy to discuss it off the
>list - personal, direct e-mails. I hope no one does what he suggests, which
>is not safe and which has been superceded by better methods than Bingelis
>had knowledge of. The small chunk of stainless tubing is not a
>significantly heavy item.
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: stainless towel bar firewall penetrations |
on juliet
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "923te" <923te@cox.net>
I found the itumescent caulk at Home Depot. It was neart the paint
department and next to the chimney caulks. Good for very high temps.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken" <klehman@albedo.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: stainless towel bar firewall penetrations on
juliet
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
>
> Actually I wouldn't mind hearing a few on list comments. I often see
> firewalls that rely on red rtv to be a firestop and I wonder how
> effective it is. After all the temperature resistance of the stuff is
> only about 550 F which is a long way from the 2000 F firebarrier
> requirement. I even wonder if the tube of silicone rtv based fire
> barrier that I just purchased from Home Depot is much better. I don't
> think the rtv based stuff is the itumescent (sort of expands and
> sacrificially boils off I think) kind of fire stop.
>
> FWIW I found 1.5 inch stainless grab bars at Home Depot and 1.25 inch
> ones in the local Home Hardware store but I suspect that the painted
> steel ones would have been quite acceptable. After all plain steel
> should last a lot longer than the firesleeve or the wires.
>
> Ken
>
> David Carter wrote:
>
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Carter"
<dcarter@datarecall.net>
> >
> >I seriously disagree with Ken't post and will be happy to discuss it off
the
> >list - personal, direct e-mails. I hope no one does what he suggests,
which
> >is not safe and which has been superceded by better methods than Bingelis
> >had knowledge of. The small chunk of stainless tubing is not a
> >significantly heavy item.
> >
> >
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Firewall materiel |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
Time: 12:32:52 AM PST US
From: "thomas a. sargent" <sarg314@earthlink.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: stainless towel bar firewall penetrations
Some time ago I read a great suggestion to use a stainless steel towel bar
or bathtub "grab bar" and cut off the ends a few inches away from the
flanges. These 90 deg. stainless tubes could then be screwed to the fire
wall on the engine side and be used to pass numerous wires thru the
firewall. Packed with fire resistant sealant, they sound like a safe way to
go.
But I can't find any reference in the archives to any one actually using his
method. Nor can I find Electric Bob weighing in on the advisability of this
technique.
How about it Bob? Do you think this is a good idea?--
Tom Sargent, RV-6A, Landing gear fairings.
Tom,
I copied the idea and will use it shortly. The item is from
McMaster-Carr pages and I think I have the item 2823K32 SS handrail at
12inches length which for US$20 gave me two 90deg hollow 1-1/4inch elbows
with drilled flanges for attachment to f/w plus about 9inches of straight
tubing - but you can wallow in several pages if you go to :
http://www.mcmaster.com/ where you will find several routes. I selected
"FIND?" top left and wrote handrails, or you can demand page 206.
Amazing source. Only Bob Nuckolls...........
Cheers,
Ferg
A064
PS: I note a request for info on f/w filling for routing through the f/w. I
found (McMaster-Carr again), browse around page 1683 or FIND Fire Stop Caulk
and scan. Also I have a pint of "White Glue QF-180 Carborundum - Fibrefax
Coating Cement from AS&S which claims to withstand temps of 1263Cdeg which
should delay firewall penetration for 15 minutes anyway. Good luck
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: stainless towel bar firewall |
penetrations
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
penetrations
At 08:52 PM 9/25/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kent Ashton <kjashton@vnet.net>
>
>Tom,
> Stainless is heavy! Probably three-four times heavier than required.
>Those ounces add up. It works fine to drill a about a 1 1/4 inch hole, pass
>through all the wires and use a piece of automotive hose or grommet to stop
>the wires from rubbing against the firewall metal. when all your wiring
>seems good, caulk the hole with fire resistant caulk. Light, cheap,
>effective.
> Tony Bingelis' books have how-tos discussing how to make light firewall
>pass-throughs a bit more elegant.
>--Kent
It's true that older airplanes (or should I say antique?) often
relied on ordinary grommets topped with grommet shields and finally
caulked with a filet of firestop putty around the control or wire
bundle. I helped re-wire some restoration projects in our hangar
at 1K1 about 15 years ago and this is the technique used on those
airplanes. But then, these airplanes had few wires and only
throttle and perhaps mixture controls. Fuel lines came through on
their own metallic fittings.
Many modern aircraft have more wires and hoses. Further, the
recommendations/regulations promulgated by the FAA in years
since have become more stringent. The wire bundles, penetration
techniques and hoses in an airplane like a Bonanza are illustrated
at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Firewall_Penetration/firewall.html
There may be lighter techniques . . . Tony's examples are certainly
lighter and examples of how it was done 60 years ago.
However, I'll offer the notion that techniques illustrated have
been TESTED and pronounced adequate to contemporary thinking by
those-who-know-more-about-airplanes-than-we-do. I can offer
these techniques in spite of perceived in-elegance as having
a high order probability of doing the job you expect of it.
Any variations on this theme should be tested too. You can build
your own "Puff the Magic Dragon" with a propane burner, mount
some thermocouples on a sheet of firewall material and have
at it. Please post your findings here on the List. If anyone
in interested in details of the test protocols, I'd be pleased
to go look them up.
Bob . . .
---
Message 5
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| Subject: | How do you seal firesleeve? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 08:50 PM 9/25/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" <Larry@BowenAero.com>
>
>I used red RTV thinned with MEK. Turned out really nice. Check this link:
>
>http://bowenaero.com/copper/displayimage.php?album=13&pos=29
Looks like a good approach. Keep in mind folks that the
sealant doesn't need to have the same fire resistant qualities
as the fire sleeve . . . we're just wanting to keep moisture
and grease out of the cut edges of firesleeve. I think Larry's
approach has merit. I'll ask the folks down on the line what
they use. I suspect it's a product offered by the same
folks that make firesleeve.
Bob . . .
---
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: stainless towel bar firewall |
penetrations on juliet
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
penetrations on juliet
At 08:19 AM 9/26/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
>
>Actually I wouldn't mind hearing a few on list comments. I often see
>firewalls that rely on red rtv to be a firestop and I wonder how
>effective it is. After all the temperature resistance of the stuff is
>only about 550 F which is a long way from the 2000 F firebarrier
>requirement. I even wonder if the tube of silicone rtv based fire
>barrier that I just purchased from Home Depot is much better. I don't
>think the rtv based stuff is the itumescent (sort of expands and
>sacrificially boils off I think) kind of fire stop.
Agreed. RTV is NOT adequate as a surface to face the fire.
This stuff turns into sand and falls apart at temperatures far
removed from 2000. However, it would probably be adequate as
the FLANGE sealant because it's captured between two large
surface areas and only the thin edge is exposed to flame. I
wouldn't want to use it around the wire bundles because it's
a mess to cut it off. The fire putties I've seen are non-hardening.
If you use them around your wire bundles and under the firesleeve,
it squishes into the bundle and gets you a nice seal. It's
relatively un-messy to clean out for adding or removing wires
in the bundle at a later date. In fact, our instrumentation
guys do this all the time. We're forever running in and removing
all kinds of instrumentation wires on airplanes and they're
all routed through the penetration schemes like those I've
illustrated.
Bob . . .
---
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: stainless towel bar firewall |
penetrations
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
penetrations
Not my invention but gleaned from the production lines at Raytheon.
One important requirement of teachers is to know the history of their
subjects, not just the simple-ideas and contemporary applications.
It's a powerful tool for avoiding repetitious errors and
avoiding the $time$ for re-invention. It's one of the
first questions I ask when invited to a meeting that seeks to do
a root cause failure analysis, "What's the history of this technology
and practice? No, not the past 6 months, how about the last 20 years?"
It's gratifying when one saves lots of $time$ over the next few weeks
by studying the last few decades.
Bob . . .
At 04:49 PM 9/25/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder"
><jschroeder@perigee.net>
>
>Bob invented this technique/method!!! Check the archives.
>
> > But I can't find any reference in the archives to any one actually using
> > this method. Nor can I find Electric Bob weighing in on the
> > advisability of this technique.
> >
> > How about it Bob? Do you think this is a good idea?
> >
---
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Strobe Head Failure |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 09:31 AM 9/25/2004 -0700, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "KeithHallsten"
><KeithHallsten@quiknet.com>
>
>The NOVA REG4-80 is a regulated power supply, advertised to put out a
>constant 20 watts per flash tube, regardless of how many flash tubes are
>connected or functioning, and regardless of any differences in inductance
>between flash tube circuits. Therefore, I can only assume that there was
>some pre-existing fault with that particular flash tube. I have heard that
>surface contamination (fingerprints) on a flash tube can dramatically
>shorten its life, but I don't know how significant that factor would be.
>Maybe it just got bumped at some point.
This might be true for halogen lamps but I don't think so for
xenon flash tubes. The life of these critters is a function
of energy per flash (drives internal stresses to electrodes)
and flashes per second (drives operating temperature). Here
are but a few of hundreds of good articles out on the web
about xenon flash systems.
http://www.birket.com/strobes/Information/About%20Strobe%20Life.pdf
http://sound.westhost.com/project65.htm
http://members.misty.com/don/xeguide.html#me
>I'm also planning to use a NOVA power supply to drive Whelen tip strobes, so
>I'll be interested if you discover what the cause was. I haven't started
>with the wiring of my Velocity project yet, but I have purchased the strobe
>system.
I had a builder fabricate his own flash tube assemblies from
10 joule lamps he found surplus. Yeah, they ran really hot
in his 20 joule/flash system and were good for perhaps 25-50
hours before they got really dark. But the tubes were cheap
and he made them easy to replace so his perceived cost of
ownership was attractive. There's lots of ways to skin the
cat. . .
Bob . . .
---
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: stainless towel bar firewall |
penetrations
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
penetrations
At 09:25 AM 9/25/2004 -0700, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "thomas a. sargent"
><sarg314@earthlink.net>
>
>Wener:
> Well... yes. The article on Bob's web page looks like a towel
> bar, but
>he doesn't say exactly what it is. The word "towel" does not appear in
>the article. I know that he has said on the list that the commerical
>plane manufacturers use something to pass thru the firewall that is
>stainless and has that same shape. I was looking for Bob's comment on
>specifically the Home Depot, plumbing supply products.
The part you see is a fabricated part for a Bonanza. You could purchase
this part from a Beechcraft service parts dealer. Take a peek at these
folks too:
http://www.epm-avcorp.com/tubeseal.html
> I should say you are probably right and there is virtually no
>difference and the towel bar probably works just fine. I have one
>actually, and if anything it looks like it's over built for this
>application. Still I'd like to get some reports that it has actually
>worked for some one and that Bob thinks the Home Depot product is safe.
Yeah, the towel bars are indeed hell-for-stout. One can probably
do better if you have the $time$ and inclination. I'm always on
the lookout for other quick-n-dirty but practical substitutes for
"aircraft quality" parts. However, elegance may not be high on
the list of features for the solution.
Bob . . .
---
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: stainless towel bar firewall |
penetrations
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
penetrations
> ... I'm always on
> the lookout for other quick-n-dirty but practical substitutes for
> "aircraft quality" parts.
This is good - do you generally post these somewhere on the
net? I was looking for the "grab bar" solution for quite
some time, and had Rob not pointed it out, I would have
probably never found it!
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: How do you seal firesleeve? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: echristley@nc.rr.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Larry Bowen <Larry@BowenAero.com>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: How do you seal
firesleeve?
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Larry
Bowen"
> <Larry@BowenAero.com>
> I used red RTV thinned with MEK. Turned out
really nice. Check
> this link:
>
>
http://bowenaero.com/copper/displayimage.php?album=13&pos=29
>
> -
> Larry Bowen
> Larry@BowenAero.com
> http://BowenAero.com
>
Larry,
Those are some really nice hoses. How did you treat
the ends of the safety wire?
Message 12
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| Subject: | 'Connection is source for "atrocious work" |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
See http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/richter/richter.html
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------------------
< Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition >
< of man. Advances which permit this norm to be >
< exceeded -- here and there, now and then -- are the >
< work of an extremely small minority, frequently >
< despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed >
< by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny >
< minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes >
< happens) is driven out of a society, the people >
< then slip back into abject poverty. >
< >
< This is known as "bad luck". >
< -Lazarus Long- >
<------------------------------------------------------>
http://www.aeroelectric.com
---
Message 13
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| Subject: | Greg Richter's email address? |
1.00 DIRECT_EMAIL BODY: Talks about direct email
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
Does anyone have a direct e-mail address for Greg Richter?
I thought I had it. I have conducted several e-mail conversations
with him but I guess that must have been a long time ago. My
archive files go back two years and he didn't pop up in a search.
I didn't find it in a Google search and a search of the Blue
Mountain website.
Assistance would be appreciated.
Bob . . .
---
Message 14
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DIRECT_EMAIL BODY": Talks.about.direct.email@matronics.com
| Subject: | Re: Greg Richter's email address? 1.00 |
DIRECT_EMAIL BODY: Talks about direct email
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Harley <harley@agelesswings.com>
Bob...
His PDF "book" has "greg@bluemountainavionics.com" listed (At least the
copy that links through the article in that last email you sent
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/richter/richter.html
...is that it?
Harley
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
>Does anyone have a direct e-mail address for Greg Richter?
>I thought I had it. I have conducted several e-mail conversations
>with him but I guess that must have been a long time ago. My
>archive files go back two years and he didn't pop up in a search.
>I didn't find it in a Google search and a search of the Blue
>Mountain website.
>
>Assistance would be appreciated.
>
>Bob . . .
>
>
>---
>
>
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Greg Richter's email address? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Werner Schneider" <wernerschneider@compuserve.com>
In 2003 I had a mail conversation with Greg under:
greg@bluemtn.com
However the general address was info@bluemountain.com
BTW has meanwhile someone a Bluemountain EFIS 1/Lite running which is
reliable during step turns, as I can remember last year we heard about
major
problems until finally some messages from Lancair indicated a change?
Would be interested to get more recent (positive and negative) comments
(please to my personal email glastar@gmx.net)
Thanks Werner
do not archive
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
> To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 10:54 PM
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Greg Richter's email address? 1.00
DIRECT_EMAIL
> BODY: Talks about direct email
>
>
> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
> <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
> >
> > Does anyone have a direct e-mail address for Greg Richter?
> > I thought I had it. I have conducted several e-mail conversations
> > with him but I guess that must have been a long time ago. My
> > archive files go back two years and he didn't pop up in a search.
> > I didn't find it in a Google search and a search of the Blue
> > Mountain website.
> >
> > Assistance would be appreciated.
> >
> > Bob . . .
> >
> >
> > ---
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Greg Richter's email address |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: CozyGirrrl@aol.com
Its Greg@Bluemountainavionics.com
...Chrissi
http://www.cozygirrrl.com/ updated 9-04-04
# 957 Cozy Mk-IV RG turbo RX
Message 17
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| Subject: | How do you seal firesleeve? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" <Larry@BowenAero.com>
Just .32 safety wire, looped around twice. Twisted with the safety wire
pliers. Clipped about 3/8" from the hose. Curl the sharp end back towards
the hose with a needle nose pliers. I think the end result looks good!
-
Larry Bowen
Larry@BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: echristley@nc.rr.com [mailto:echristley@nc.rr.com]
> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen"
> >
> > I used red RTV thinned with MEK. Turned out
> really nice. Check this link:
> >
> >
> http://bowenaero.com/copper/displayimage.php?album=13&pos=29
> >
>
> Larry,
> Those are some really nice hoses. How did you treat the ends
> of the safety wire?
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Greg Richter's email address |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 05:41 PM 9/26/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: CozyGirrrl@aol.com
>
>Its Greg@Bluemountainavionics.com
I was going to guess that but thanks!
Bob . . .
---
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Greg Richter's email address? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 11:38 PM 9/26/2004 +0200, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Werner Schneider"
><wernerschneider@compuserve.com>
>
>In 2003 I had a mail conversation with Greg under:
>
> greg@bluemtn.com
>
> However the general address was info@bluemountain.com
>
> BTW has meanwhile someone a Bluemountain EFIS 1/Lite running which is
> reliable during step turns, as I can remember last year we heard about
>major
> problems until finally some messages from Lancair indicated a change?
>
> Would be interested to get more recent (positive and negative) comments
> (please to my personal email glastar@gmx.net)
I've not heard any feedback from a hands-on user since
Kirk Hammersmith left Lancair. I'll chase him down and
see what the latest read is.
Bob . . .
---
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Richter's email address? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 05:05 PM 9/26/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Harley <harley@agelesswings.com>
>
>Bob...
>
>His PDF "book" has "greg@bluemountainavionics.com" listed (At least the
>copy that links through the article in that last email you sent
>
>http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/richter/richter.html
>
>...is that it?
Gee, the one place I didn't look! Thanks!
Bob . . .
---
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Greg Richter's email address? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James Redmon" <james@berkut13.com>
> BTW has meanwhile someone a Bluemountain EFIS 1/Lite running which is
> reliable during step turns, as I can remember last year we heard about
> major
> problems until finally some messages from Lancair indicated a change?
I have a EFIS/Lite in my Berkut. It works wonderfully - no problems to
report. It's dead-on accurate with heading, attitude, altitude and speed.
It is now all GPS coupled and corrected for saturation and drift. Note: I
have the ADI only...not used for NAV functions.
James Redmon
Berkut #013 N97TX
http://www.berkut13.com
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