---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 09/26/04: 21 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:16 AM - Re: stainless towel bar firewall penetrations (Ken) 2. 05:23 AM - Re: stainless towel bar firewall penetrations on juliet (923te) 3. 08:04 AM - Firewall materiel (Fergus Kyle) 4. 08:26 AM - Re: stainless towel bar firewall (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 08:29 AM - Re: How do you seal firesleeve? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 08:35 AM - Re: stainless towel bar firewall (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 08:42 AM - Re: stainless towel bar firewall (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 08:55 AM - Re: Re: Strobe Head Failure (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 09:02 AM - Re: stainless towel bar firewall (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 09:59 AM - Re: stainless towel bar firewall (Mickey Coggins) 11. 11:38 AM - Re: Re: How do you seal firesleeve? (echristley@nc.rr.com) 12. 01:32 PM - 'Connection is source for "atrocious work" (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 13. 01:54 PM - Greg Richter's email address? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 14. 02:05 PM - Re: Greg Richter's email address? 1.00 (Harley) 15. 02:39 PM - Re: Greg Richter's email address? (Werner Schneider) 16. 02:41 PM - Greg Richter's email address (CozyGirrrl@aol.com) 17. 03:06 PM - Re: Re: How do you seal firesleeve? (Larry Bowen) 18. 06:09 PM - Re: Greg Richter's email address (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 19. 06:12 PM - Re: Greg Richter's email address? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 20. 07:36 PM - Re: Richter's email address? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 21. 08:38 PM - Re: Greg Richter's email address? (James Redmon) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:16:40 AM PST US From: Ken Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: stainless towel bar firewall penetrations on juliet --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken Actually I wouldn't mind hearing a few on list comments. I often see firewalls that rely on red rtv to be a firestop and I wonder how effective it is. After all the temperature resistance of the stuff is only about 550 F which is a long way from the 2000 F firebarrier requirement. I even wonder if the tube of silicone rtv based fire barrier that I just purchased from Home Depot is much better. I don't think the rtv based stuff is the itumescent (sort of expands and sacrificially boils off I think) kind of fire stop. FWIW I found 1.5 inch stainless grab bars at Home Depot and 1.25 inch ones in the local Home Hardware store but I suspect that the painted steel ones would have been quite acceptable. After all plain steel should last a lot longer than the firesleeve or the wires. Ken David Carter wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Carter" > >I seriously disagree with Ken't post and will be happy to discuss it off the >list - personal, direct e-mails. I hope no one does what he suggests, which >is not safe and which has been superceded by better methods than Bingelis >had knowledge of. The small chunk of stainless tubing is not a >significantly heavy item. > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:23:00 AM PST US From: "923te" <923te@cox.net> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: stainless towel bar firewall penetrations on juliet --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "923te" <923te@cox.net> I found the itumescent caulk at Home Depot. It was neart the paint department and next to the chimney caulks. Good for very high temps. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: stainless towel bar firewall penetrations on juliet > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken > > Actually I wouldn't mind hearing a few on list comments. I often see > firewalls that rely on red rtv to be a firestop and I wonder how > effective it is. After all the temperature resistance of the stuff is > only about 550 F which is a long way from the 2000 F firebarrier > requirement. I even wonder if the tube of silicone rtv based fire > barrier that I just purchased from Home Depot is much better. I don't > think the rtv based stuff is the itumescent (sort of expands and > sacrificially boils off I think) kind of fire stop. > > FWIW I found 1.5 inch stainless grab bars at Home Depot and 1.25 inch > ones in the local Home Hardware store but I suspect that the painted > steel ones would have been quite acceptable. After all plain steel > should last a lot longer than the firesleeve or the wires. > > Ken > > David Carter wrote: > > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Carter" > > > >I seriously disagree with Ken't post and will be happy to discuss it off the > >list - personal, direct e-mails. I hope no one does what he suggests, which > >is not safe and which has been superceded by better methods than Bingelis > >had knowledge of. The small chunk of stainless tubing is not a > >significantly heavy item. > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:04:31 AM PST US From: "Fergus Kyle" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Firewall materiel --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" Time: 12:32:52 AM PST US From: "thomas a. sargent" Subject: AeroElectric-List: stainless towel bar firewall penetrations Some time ago I read a great suggestion to use a stainless steel towel bar or bathtub "grab bar" and cut off the ends a few inches away from the flanges. These 90 deg. stainless tubes could then be screwed to the fire wall on the engine side and be used to pass numerous wires thru the firewall. Packed with fire resistant sealant, they sound like a safe way to go. But I can't find any reference in the archives to any one actually using his method. Nor can I find Electric Bob weighing in on the advisability of this technique. How about it Bob? Do you think this is a good idea?-- Tom Sargent, RV-6A, Landing gear fairings. Tom, I copied the idea and will use it shortly. The item is from McMaster-Carr pages and I think I have the item 2823K32 SS handrail at 12inches length which for US$20 gave me two 90deg hollow 1-1/4inch elbows with drilled flanges for attachment to f/w plus about 9inches of straight tubing - but you can wallow in several pages if you go to : http://www.mcmaster.com/ where you will find several routes. I selected "FIND?" top left and wrote handrails, or you can demand page 206. Amazing source. Only Bob Nuckolls........... Cheers, Ferg A064 PS: I note a request for info on f/w filling for routing through the f/w. I found (McMaster-Carr again), browse around page 1683 or FIND Fire Stop Caulk and scan. Also I have a pint of "White Glue QF-180 Carborundum - Fibrefax Coating Cement from AS&S which claims to withstand temps of 1263Cdeg which should delay firewall penetration for 15 minutes anyway. Good luck ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:26:15 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" penetrations Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: stainless towel bar firewall penetrations --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" penetrations At 08:52 PM 9/25/2004 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kent Ashton > >Tom, > Stainless is heavy! Probably three-four times heavier than required. >Those ounces add up. It works fine to drill a about a 1 1/4 inch hole, pass >through all the wires and use a piece of automotive hose or grommet to stop >the wires from rubbing against the firewall metal. when all your wiring >seems good, caulk the hole with fire resistant caulk. Light, cheap, >effective. > Tony Bingelis' books have how-tos discussing how to make light firewall >pass-throughs a bit more elegant. >--Kent It's true that older airplanes (or should I say antique?) often relied on ordinary grommets topped with grommet shields and finally caulked with a filet of firestop putty around the control or wire bundle. I helped re-wire some restoration projects in our hangar at 1K1 about 15 years ago and this is the technique used on those airplanes. But then, these airplanes had few wires and only throttle and perhaps mixture controls. Fuel lines came through on their own metallic fittings. Many modern aircraft have more wires and hoses. Further, the recommendations/regulations promulgated by the FAA in years since have become more stringent. The wire bundles, penetration techniques and hoses in an airplane like a Bonanza are illustrated at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Firewall_Penetration/firewall.html There may be lighter techniques . . . Tony's examples are certainly lighter and examples of how it was done 60 years ago. However, I'll offer the notion that techniques illustrated have been TESTED and pronounced adequate to contemporary thinking by those-who-know-more-about-airplanes-than-we-do. I can offer these techniques in spite of perceived in-elegance as having a high order probability of doing the job you expect of it. Any variations on this theme should be tested too. You can build your own "Puff the Magic Dragon" with a propane burner, mount some thermocouples on a sheet of firewall material and have at it. Please post your findings here on the List. If anyone in interested in details of the test protocols, I'd be pleased to go look them up. Bob . . . --- ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:29:05 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: How do you seal firesleeve? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 08:50 PM 9/25/2004 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" > >I used red RTV thinned with MEK. Turned out really nice. Check this link: > >http://bowenaero.com/copper/displayimage.php?album=13&pos=29 Looks like a good approach. Keep in mind folks that the sealant doesn't need to have the same fire resistant qualities as the fire sleeve . . . we're just wanting to keep moisture and grease out of the cut edges of firesleeve. I think Larry's approach has merit. I'll ask the folks down on the line what they use. I suspect it's a product offered by the same folks that make firesleeve. Bob . . . --- ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:35:03 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" penetrations on juliet Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: stainless towel bar firewall penetrations on juliet --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" penetrations on juliet At 08:19 AM 9/26/2004 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken > >Actually I wouldn't mind hearing a few on list comments. I often see >firewalls that rely on red rtv to be a firestop and I wonder how >effective it is. After all the temperature resistance of the stuff is >only about 550 F which is a long way from the 2000 F firebarrier >requirement. I even wonder if the tube of silicone rtv based fire >barrier that I just purchased from Home Depot is much better. I don't >think the rtv based stuff is the itumescent (sort of expands and >sacrificially boils off I think) kind of fire stop. Agreed. RTV is NOT adequate as a surface to face the fire. This stuff turns into sand and falls apart at temperatures far removed from 2000. However, it would probably be adequate as the FLANGE sealant because it's captured between two large surface areas and only the thin edge is exposed to flame. I wouldn't want to use it around the wire bundles because it's a mess to cut it off. The fire putties I've seen are non-hardening. If you use them around your wire bundles and under the firesleeve, it squishes into the bundle and gets you a nice seal. It's relatively un-messy to clean out for adding or removing wires in the bundle at a later date. In fact, our instrumentation guys do this all the time. We're forever running in and removing all kinds of instrumentation wires on airplanes and they're all routed through the penetration schemes like those I've illustrated. Bob . . . --- ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:42:05 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" penetrations Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: stainless towel bar firewall penetrations --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" penetrations Not my invention but gleaned from the production lines at Raytheon. One important requirement of teachers is to know the history of their subjects, not just the simple-ideas and contemporary applications. It's a powerful tool for avoiding repetitious errors and avoiding the $time$ for re-invention. It's one of the first questions I ask when invited to a meeting that seeks to do a root cause failure analysis, "What's the history of this technology and practice? No, not the past 6 months, how about the last 20 years?" It's gratifying when one saves lots of $time$ over the next few weeks by studying the last few decades. Bob . . . At 04:49 PM 9/25/2004 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder" > > >Bob invented this technique/method!!! Check the archives. > > > But I can't find any reference in the archives to any one actually using > > this method. Nor can I find Electric Bob weighing in on the > > advisability of this technique. > > > > How about it Bob? Do you think this is a good idea? > > --- ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:55:01 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Strobe Head Failure --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 09:31 AM 9/25/2004 -0700, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "KeithHallsten" > > >The NOVA REG4-80 is a regulated power supply, advertised to put out a >constant 20 watts per flash tube, regardless of how many flash tubes are >connected or functioning, and regardless of any differences in inductance >between flash tube circuits. Therefore, I can only assume that there was >some pre-existing fault with that particular flash tube. I have heard that >surface contamination (fingerprints) on a flash tube can dramatically >shorten its life, but I don't know how significant that factor would be. >Maybe it just got bumped at some point. This might be true for halogen lamps but I don't think so for xenon flash tubes. The life of these critters is a function of energy per flash (drives internal stresses to electrodes) and flashes per second (drives operating temperature). Here are but a few of hundreds of good articles out on the web about xenon flash systems. http://www.birket.com/strobes/Information/About%20Strobe%20Life.pdf http://sound.westhost.com/project65.htm http://members.misty.com/don/xeguide.html#me >I'm also planning to use a NOVA power supply to drive Whelen tip strobes, so >I'll be interested if you discover what the cause was. I haven't started >with the wiring of my Velocity project yet, but I have purchased the strobe >system. I had a builder fabricate his own flash tube assemblies from 10 joule lamps he found surplus. Yeah, they ran really hot in his 20 joule/flash system and were good for perhaps 25-50 hours before they got really dark. But the tubes were cheap and he made them easy to replace so his perceived cost of ownership was attractive. There's lots of ways to skin the cat. . . Bob . . . --- ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:02:58 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" penetrations Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: stainless towel bar firewall penetrations --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" penetrations At 09:25 AM 9/25/2004 -0700, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "thomas a. sargent" > > >Wener: > Well... yes. The article on Bob's web page looks like a towel > bar, but >he doesn't say exactly what it is. The word "towel" does not appear in >the article. I know that he has said on the list that the commerical >plane manufacturers use something to pass thru the firewall that is >stainless and has that same shape. I was looking for Bob's comment on >specifically the Home Depot, plumbing supply products. The part you see is a fabricated part for a Bonanza. You could purchase this part from a Beechcraft service parts dealer. Take a peek at these folks too: http://www.epm-avcorp.com/tubeseal.html > I should say you are probably right and there is virtually no >difference and the towel bar probably works just fine. I have one >actually, and if anything it looks like it's over built for this >application. Still I'd like to get some reports that it has actually >worked for some one and that Bob thinks the Home Depot product is safe. Yeah, the towel bars are indeed hell-for-stout. One can probably do better if you have the $time$ and inclination. I'm always on the lookout for other quick-n-dirty but practical substitutes for "aircraft quality" parts. However, elegance may not be high on the list of features for the solution. Bob . . . --- ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:59:33 AM PST US From: Mickey Coggins penetrations Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: stainless towel bar firewall penetrations --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins penetrations > ... I'm always on > the lookout for other quick-n-dirty but practical substitutes for > "aircraft quality" parts. This is good - do you generally post these somewhere on the net? I was looking for the "grab bar" solution for quite some time, and had Rob not pointed it out, I would have probably never found it! -- Mickey Coggins http://www.rv8.ch/ #82007 QB Wings/Fuselage ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:38:18 AM PST US From: echristley@nc.rr.com Subject: Re: RE: AeroElectric-List: How do you seal firesleeve? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: echristley@nc.rr.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Larry Bowen Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: How do you seal firesleeve? > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" > > I used red RTV thinned with MEK. Turned out really nice. Check > this link: > > http://bowenaero.com/copper/displayimage.php?album=13&pos=29 > > - > Larry Bowen > Larry@BowenAero.com > http://BowenAero.com > Larry, Those are some really nice hoses. How did you treat the ends of the safety wire? ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:32:49 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: 'Connection is source for "atrocious work" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" See http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/richter/richter.html Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------------- < Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition > < of man. Advances which permit this norm to be > < exceeded -- here and there, now and then -- are the > < work of an extremely small minority, frequently > < despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed > < by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny > < minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes > < happens) is driven out of a society, the people > < then slip back into abject poverty. > < > < This is known as "bad luck". > < -Lazarus Long- > <------------------------------------------------------> http://www.aeroelectric.com --- ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:54:48 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Greg Richter's email address? 1.00 DIRECT_EMAIL BODY: Talks about direct email --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Does anyone have a direct e-mail address for Greg Richter? I thought I had it. I have conducted several e-mail conversations with him but I guess that must have been a long time ago. My archive files go back two years and he didn't pop up in a search. I didn't find it in a Google search and a search of the Blue Mountain website. Assistance would be appreciated. Bob . . . --- ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:05:37 PM PST US From: Harley DIRECT_EMAIL BODY": Talks.about.direct.email@matronics.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Greg Richter's email address? 1.00 DIRECT_EMAIL BODY: Talks about direct email --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Harley Bob... His PDF "book" has "greg@bluemountainavionics.com" listed (At least the copy that links through the article in that last email you sent http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/richter/richter.html ...is that it? Harley Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > >Does anyone have a direct e-mail address for Greg Richter? >I thought I had it. I have conducted several e-mail conversations >with him but I guess that must have been a long time ago. My >archive files go back two years and he didn't pop up in a search. >I didn't find it in a Google search and a search of the Blue >Mountain website. > >Assistance would be appreciated. > >Bob . . . > > >--- > > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:39:30 PM PST US From: "Werner Schneider" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Greg Richter's email address? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Werner Schneider" In 2003 I had a mail conversation with Greg under: greg@bluemtn.com However the general address was info@bluemountain.com BTW has meanwhile someone a Bluemountain EFIS 1/Lite running which is reliable during step turns, as I can remember last year we heard about major problems until finally some messages from Lancair indicated a change? Would be interested to get more recent (positive and negative) comments (please to my personal email glastar@gmx.net) Thanks Werner do not archive > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > To: > Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 10:54 PM > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Greg Richter's email address? 1.00 DIRECT_EMAIL > BODY: Talks about direct email > > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > > > > Does anyone have a direct e-mail address for Greg Richter? > > I thought I had it. I have conducted several e-mail conversations > > with him but I guess that must have been a long time ago. My > > archive files go back two years and he didn't pop up in a search. > > I didn't find it in a Google search and a search of the Blue > > Mountain website. > > > > Assistance would be appreciated. > > > > Bob . . . > > > > > > --- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 02:41:26 PM PST US From: CozyGirrrl@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Greg Richter's email address --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: CozyGirrrl@aol.com Its Greg@Bluemountainavionics.com ...Chrissi http://www.cozygirrrl.com/ updated 9-04-04 # 957 Cozy Mk-IV RG turbo RX ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 03:06:45 PM PST US From: "Larry Bowen" Subject: RE: RE: AeroElectric-List: How do you seal firesleeve? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" Just .32 safety wire, looped around twice. Twisted with the safety wire pliers. Clipped about 3/8" from the hose. Curl the sharp end back towards the hose with a needle nose pliers. I think the end result looks good! - Larry Bowen Larry@BowenAero.com http://BowenAero.com > -----Original Message----- > From: echristley@nc.rr.com [mailto:echristley@nc.rr.com] > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" > > > > I used red RTV thinned with MEK. Turned out > really nice. Check this link: > > > > > http://bowenaero.com/copper/displayimage.php?album=13&pos=29 > > > > Larry, > Those are some really nice hoses. How did you treat the ends > of the safety wire? ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 06:09:23 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Greg Richter's email address --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 05:41 PM 9/26/2004 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: CozyGirrrl@aol.com > >Its Greg@Bluemountainavionics.com I was going to guess that but thanks! Bob . . . --- ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 06:12:40 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Greg Richter's email address? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 11:38 PM 9/26/2004 +0200, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Werner Schneider" > > >In 2003 I had a mail conversation with Greg under: > > greg@bluemtn.com > > However the general address was info@bluemountain.com > > BTW has meanwhile someone a Bluemountain EFIS 1/Lite running which is > reliable during step turns, as I can remember last year we heard about >major > problems until finally some messages from Lancair indicated a change? > > Would be interested to get more recent (positive and negative) comments > (please to my personal email glastar@gmx.net) I've not heard any feedback from a hands-on user since Kirk Hammersmith left Lancair. I'll chase him down and see what the latest read is. Bob . . . --- ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 07:36:37 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Richter's email address? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 05:05 PM 9/26/2004 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Harley > >Bob... > >His PDF "book" has "greg@bluemountainavionics.com" listed (At least the >copy that links through the article in that last email you sent > >http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/richter/richter.html > >...is that it? Gee, the one place I didn't look! Thanks! Bob . . . --- ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 08:38:50 PM PST US From: "James Redmon" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Greg Richter's email address? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James Redmon" > BTW has meanwhile someone a Bluemountain EFIS 1/Lite running which is > reliable during step turns, as I can remember last year we heard about > major > problems until finally some messages from Lancair indicated a change? I have a EFIS/Lite in my Berkut. It works wonderfully - no problems to report. It's dead-on accurate with heading, attitude, altitude and speed. It is now all GPS coupled and corrected for saturation and drift. Note: I have the ADI only...not used for NAV functions. James Redmon Berkut #013 N97TX http://www.berkut13.com